|
Post by Fearless1 on Feb 23, 2007 14:46:02 GMT -5
I have no fear in this way. What are you saying I'm afraid of?
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Feb 23, 2007 18:09:19 GMT -5
James, you are right. I am still coming to terms with my religious upbringing.
However, I am working through things in a rational and fair way, examining everything I formerly believed, especially those things peculiar to 2x2's. I apply as well as I am able, sound logic, reasoning, common sense, rationale, and the Bible (particularly the KJV since this is the main tool of the Workers.) The reason I choose the KJV is so that I can see where their beliefs come from and for the sake of consistant investigation I often see where in my opinion they have misunderstood or misinterpreted scripture.
I do address the various issues with an unusual level of fairness and impartiality, things which I have many years training in.
Whilst all of us have our own biases, I believe that I can drive the middle road as well as anyone can. This allows me to see the broader picture and to bring into my considerations various aspects that a more biased person would tend to reject.
In some ways I'm probably unique on this board in that in one post I may be critical of the 2x2 system, beliefs and Workers' actions, whilst in another I may be defending them to the hilt. Furthermore, irrespective of how my individual posts may sound, they should never be viewed as "personal" or with malice. Two wrongs don't make a right, and again without claiming to be perfect, I do believe that the best way to confound those who think they alone possess the spirit, is to show them Christ in your actions/inter-actions.
Bit by bit I am working through my former beliefs. Some I still adhere to, some I alter and some I do a complete U-turn.
Today, I feel much better for it AND most importantly "more secure in Jesus." I feel he is leading me into new fields of knowledge and understanding that I could never have entered in the past.
James, when I take my car to the garage, I only instruct the replacement or repair of those things that need it. I do not ask for parts that are in perfect working order to be relaced. My faith is a bit like that. I am altering the things that need altered and changing the things that need changed. These things take me well outside the 2x2 camp nowadays (in the Workers' eyes), but yet there is much that remains that needs no fixing.
As far as the things that I have altered or changed (or even just exploring) are concerned, my posts will come across as anti- 2x2 (hopefully taken in a constructive way), and the things that I have not changed my views about will very likely be seen in a pro- 2x2 way.
It is very difficult to please everybody, if at all possible, and I run the great risk of not pleasing anybody on this board because of my position, but hey, I'm me. I just try to be fair.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 20:00:26 GMT -5
I think you would really benefit by reading the Message Bible. I don’t recommend trying to understand the way the Friends & Workers see things. Try and understand the way Jesus sees things and after a time you will see more and more clearly. You should not be on the middle road Andrew, it would be better if you where either hot or cold. You can’t keep a foot in both camps. To be honest and I am not trying to be negative towards you but for me you seem to be somewhat confused and double minded. Stop trying so hard to please people. Once again I suggest you loose the King James Version which is a language we don’t use any more and get The Message Bible. I also suggest you joining a local church (or further out) that operates in the gifts of the Spirit. I salute you in your journey so far.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 24, 2007 4:06:03 GMT -5
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. POINT 2: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, that you cannot fellowship in churchy looking buildings. POINT 3: The Matthew 10 foundation is a transgression and is completely misunderstood and totally misrepresented. POINT 4: The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background because as a result of “their way” the family life is dysfunctional.
These are the four foundational truths of the Friends, Workers & Meetings. Now I would like to do a break down on why all these families are all dysfunctional.
|
|
|
Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 24, 2007 5:18:29 GMT -5
quote - POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. A common belief, particularly on this board, is of a Universal Church. Some push this "church" to include all good people outside of Christianity - clearly Jesus spoke of limits: where are yours?
quote - POINT 2: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, that you cannot fellowship in churchy looking buildings. NT Services were in homes, and that is where the spirit of God appeared, as it had done so with the tabernacle and temple in the OT. NT writers spoke of the worldly building as belonging to the old law, and Paul said they that worship there have no right to enter Christ's church. What sort of church do you think Jesus had in mind?
quote - POINT 3: The Matthew 10 foundation is a transgression and is completely misunderstood and totally misrepresented. How so? (without reference to robes, staves and donkeys)
quote - POINT 4: The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background because as a result of “their way” the family life is dysfunctional. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the school I grew up in there was one person who had non-married parents. Today that figure would be more than half. This includes mainstream religions (and Baptists have a higher divorce rate.) That's dysfunction for you.
|
|
|
Post by ANDREW M on Feb 24, 2007 5:32:01 GMT -5
James, you completely misunderstand my position. I am not trying to please "both" camps. I don't care if I don't please anyone (other than God).
I "am" part of another church fellowship (Baptist), one that I'm extremely happy with, but I won't make the same mistakes I made in the past. I will "try"(test !) and "prove" my beliefs and I feel I am on a very rewarding journey so far.
In attempting to understand the way F&W's understand things I now gain a clear insight into how 4 generations of my family responded and behaved. This is very important to me and a major help in the healing process.
I am more and more understanding the way Jesus sees things and I know in my heart that much of what has been revealed to me in recent times, has been of his leading. Be cautious not to put yourself in the footwear of the Workers and think otherwise.
I am certainly not double-minded, "confused" perhaps ? but then who isn't ?
My middle ground approach is dictated by "fairness to all," "complete impartiality," "collating information from all quarters before making sound judgements," and seeking God's guidance in these matters. I consider this to be "wisdom" "sound reasoning" "logical" and "common sense," as well as "scriptural !" I would recommend this approach to anyone. The results have been startling. "If" this is a "lukewarm" approach then you can keep your "hot" and "cold."
Furthermore, I would also recommend reading the Bible "sparingly !" I get more from God during a walk up the woods or along the beach, than I do through a gluttenous approach to scripture.
All that said, I really put your misunderstandings of myself and my position down to the fact that it can be extremely difficult to explain our position, or appreciate the position of others, from a few paragraphs on this medium.
Many thanks for the good wishes and take care.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 24, 2007 17:29:48 GMT -5
...well bless you Andrew in Jesus name.
The 4 foundational truths of the Friends, Workers & Meetings are totaly correct and spot on - no doubt what so ever. I will be providing more and more insight into these areas. ..I wont be arguing the validity any more because that has been thoroughly accomplished!
|
|
|
Post by DreamLand on Feb 24, 2007 18:57:13 GMT -5
...well bless you Andrew in Jesus name. The 4 foundational truths of the Friends, Workers & Meetings are totaly correct and spot on - no doubt what so ever. I will be providing more and more insight into these areas. .. I wont be arguing the validity any more because that has been thoroughly accomplished!You have proved nothing. There is no validity to most of what you have said. If and when you are willing to actually discuss these points just say so. Until you do your points are no more valid than me saying you are delusional. I would be willing to discuss either point.
|
|
Oh say it is not so
Guest
|
Post by Oh say it is not so on Feb 24, 2007 18:59:27 GMT -5
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. This would make Christianity utterly false and Biblically unfounded. Don't you believe Christianity s the only way to be saved?
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Feb 24, 2007 20:42:10 GMT -5
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. This would make Christianity utterly false and Biblically unfounded. Don't you believe Christianity s the only way to be saved? I would say Christ is the only way no group could ever hold the monoply sola scriptura
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 24, 2007 21:36:45 GMT -5
A functional family considers problems to be a normal part of life. Functional families work to solve problems, cope, deal with and dispose of the emotions that arise. So they are not threatened by problems but rather see them as challenges to work through. Dysfunctional families are not like that, problems are ignored, they are not dealt with because a dysfunctional family is trying to maintain their image, especially shame based dysfunctional families, image maintenance is critical. You have to keep up the illusion that the family is perfect. Problems are swept into a pile and shoved into a corner that will eventually turn into a volcano. You are not allowed to let anyone know what is going on in you’re heart. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in your life. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in the home. So all energy is not spent on solving problems but on hiding reality from others. In a functional family feelings are acknowledged, valued, explored and resolved. In a dysfunctional family you cant go there.Dysfunctional Shame based Cult Family. The first thing is that within the Friends, Workers and Meetings it is all about what it looks like. You walk around and meet with other 'members' with a smile on your face and it would almost seem that you are living the perfect life. ...but at home the suppressed anger comes forth. It is all about going to meetings. You go to all the meetings and get brownie points for all the gospel meetings you go to. The more meeting and gospel attendance --the better....You know this, and after, you have such a nice feeling of conviction. "Membership of this group is not through an inward receiving of a relationship with Christ by grace, but it's like any other cult or religion: an outward conformity to their lifestyle”.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 1:47:24 GMT -5
The first reason that constitutes all the Friends, Workers & Meetings being of dysfunctional families is:
(A) "Membership of this group is not through an inward receiving of a relationship with Christ by grace, but it's like any other cult or religion: an outward conformity to their lifestyle”.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 5:45:23 GMT -5
Self-Esteem (defectiveness & Failure)
Self-esteem is the feeling that we are worthwhile in our personal, social and work lives. It comes from feeling loved and respected as a child in our family, by friends, and at school. Ideally we would all have childhoods that support our self-esteem. We would have felt loved and appreciated by our family, accepted by peers, and successful at school. We would have received praise and encouragement without excessive criticism or rejection.
But this did not happen to you and me. Perhaps you had a parent or sibling who constantly criticized you, so that nothing you did was acceptable. You felt unlovable. Perhaps you were rejected by peers. They made you feel undesirable. Or maybe you felt like a failure in school or sports.
As an adult, you may feel insecure about certain aspects of your life. You lack self-confidence in the areas where you feel vulnerable-intimate relationships, social situations, or at work. Within your vulnerable areas, you feel inferior to other people. You are hypersensitive to criticism and rejection. Challenges make you very anxious. You either avoid challenges or handle them poorly.
Within self-esteem are Defectiveness and Failure. They correspond to feelings of unworthiness in the personal and work realms. The Failure part involves a feeling of inadequacy in the realm of achievement and work. It is the sense that you are less successful, talented, or intelligent than your peers.
The Defectiveness involves the sense that you are inherently flawed-that the more deeply someone knows you, the less lovable you are. The Defectiveness often accompanies other issues.
Injuries to our self-esteem cause us to feel shame. Shame is the predominant emotion within Defectiveness. If you have the Defectiveness or Failure entrapments, then you live a life filled with shame about who you are.
|
|
|
Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 25, 2007 5:55:22 GMT -5
quote - "The first reason that constitutes all the Friends, Workers & Meetings being of dysfunctional families is: (A) "Membership of this group is not through an inward receiving of a relationship with Christ by grace, but it's like any other cult or religion: an outward conformity to their lifestyle”.
That's fairly inflamatory, and an example of gross generalization. SOME people are in our church because of factors other than immediate personal need. This is either hinted, at or outright stressed, in many meetings. Read about the churches in Revelations, and Paul's letters to the Corinthians and Galatians. Recall the family of Mary, Marth and Lazarus. We are given a picture of three people at different stages of their relationship with Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 6:13:17 GMT -5
Oh, go back to bed Berk!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2007 6:19:21 GMT -5
Bed? Nah... it's only quarter past 10!
|
|
|
Post by Kieran on Feb 25, 2007 8:06:26 GMT -5
James I'm so glad that you are a teacher come from God, you have more insight into these things than any human. You are certainly the most intelligent, perceptive person posting here. You are our new messiah, a leader come to show us truth and the error of our ways, and you have led by example of a sinless life. I state here and now that I'm a convert to your way, to your kingship in my heart.
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 25, 2007 8:27:27 GMT -5
James has said that ALL 2x2s are under shame - living a life filled with shame..
As a 2x2, what is this shame that I'm meant to be under? Please explain?
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 9:01:37 GMT -5
Jesus was mocked as well. ...You will have to get someone else to explain Geoff..sorry I cant help you...
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 25, 2007 10:21:39 GMT -5
James no mocking intended. But if you really will not answer a genuine question, what is your purpose?
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 11:17:37 GMT -5
You have got it wrong again Geoff.
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 25, 2007 11:40:26 GMT -5
What did I get wrong?
Please show me my errors, so that I can learn.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 16:17:31 GMT -5
No Geoff, I cannot do that. There is suficient information in the posts that are self explanatory. You obviously have difuculty in understanding and I dont have a problem with that but I cannot try and explain the nuts and bolts of everything. Ask someone else and ask God.
|
|
|
Post by Ronnie on Feb 25, 2007 16:26:00 GMT -5
Cannot?
Will not.
|
|
|
Post by jason storebo on Feb 25, 2007 18:38:06 GMT -5
This thread is driving me to the brink of insanity (a good mind is a terrible thing to lose). I hope y'all have said all that ye needs must say. Jame's vision of Christianity represents everything that makes me hate the fundamentalist Christianity in the first place. Jame's take on Christianity makes me nauseous....and I would seriously like to puke. I hope this thread will now sink into much deserved oblivion. ...ooopsie...I'm afraid I just bumped this thing back to the top of the page. Dammit!
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Feb 25, 2007 19:56:25 GMT -5
In my German class there are 8 people, all from different nationalities and languages (and I am the only American.) We spent a recent class talking (in German) about the customs of our home countries. One person is a muslim from Tunisia. For religious reasons, she does not eat pork. One is a Hindu from India. For religious reasons, she does not eat beef. The rest of the class found these facts of interest, but not of significantly more or less interest than the hundred other details we talked about. And I loved the fact that we could observe these religious beliefs of others (that we ourselves do not believe, agree with, or live by) with absolutely no judgement, condemnation, or ridicule.
And it occurred to me: Why is it that so many religious people find it SO important to tell others that their own beliefs and practices are right and all others are wrong and will ultimately condemn the practitioners thereof to hell? Why do we not simply live out our own beliefs before God, and as for our neighbor, well, let them do the same?
|
|
|
Post by iowan on Feb 25, 2007 20:09:47 GMT -5
So do you have German mastered yet?
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 25, 2007 20:11:46 GMT -5
....Unfortunately there are people that like to justify their own sin and lifestyles. Homosexuality is one of them. While God loves these people just as much (because the Bible teaches us that all sin is sin) we have to acknoledge and agree with the one and only God. ...I think if He says something it has to right. .............We cannot exhonorate ourselves over a particular sin...We canot accept and choose what we want to obey but in fact have to accept the total Word of God...
Jason can you tell me more why you feel this way?
|
|