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Post by Observing on Feb 22, 2007 8:57:37 GMT -5
Now..within the Fourth foundational point which is about dysfunctional families, as a DIRECT result of being raised within the Friends & Workers, are many other things that fall under this catorgory which contribute in constituteing a cult. We have to now ask ourselves what exactly makes and causes these families to be dysfunctional? James, After trying for some time to make some degree of sense out of what you have posted, attempting to get you to answer even the most basic of questions, and trying to tell you that your experience in growing up in the F&W group was in no way typical, it has become increasingly clear that you are not interested in a dialog. You either cannot or will not answer any question regarding support for what you are posting,and continue to post things that have been pointed out, not just by me but by others as well,to be false. It has been your goal to use this as a soapbox and not for discussion. You have little use for the experiences and thoughts of others unless they agree with you viewpoint. It brings to mind the old saying about teaching a pig to sing. You should listen to others who post here. Their experiences are just as valid as yours. Best of luck in the future.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 14:06:47 GMT -5
Dysfunctional Shame based Cult Family. The first thing is that within the Friends, Workers and Meetings it is all about what it looks like. You walk around and meet with other 'members' with a smile on your face and it would almost seem that you are living the perfect life. ...but at home the suppressed anger comes forth. It is all about going to meetings. You go to all the meetings and get brownie points for all the gospel meetings you go to. The more meeting and gospel attendance -- the better.... You know this, and after, you have such a nice feeling of conviction.
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Post by bluejay on Feb 22, 2007 14:22:37 GMT -5
Dysfunctional Shame based Cult Family. The first thing is that within the Friends, Workers and Meetings it is all about what it looks like. You walk around and meet with other 'members' with a smile on your face and it would almost seem that you are living the perfect life. ...but at home the suppressed anger comes forth. It is all about going to meetings. You go to all the meetings and get brownie points for all the gospel meetings you go to. The more meeting and gospel attendance -- the better.... You know this, and after, you have such a nice feeling of conviction.James' post has some validity here. Not only did I live a "double standard life" while professing, I know of many, many others who also did. The price for honesty was pretty steep. At the very least you'd receive many "worker visits". At the most severe you'd have some sort of censure imposed on you. Meeting attendance was the way a professing person's "heartiness" was determined. I often heard of concern for one or another of the friends when they weren't faithfully getting to all the meetings. These two issues - how others in the fellowship "see" you and meeting attendance - were two of the biggest reasons I left meetings. In my mind then I saw this as man (workers) dictating how to live our lives as Christian. As such, I was never able to see past that and discover a personal connection to God, nor the real God. Possibly things are different now as I'm not at all in the "loop" within my professing family, nor do I know now how they feel about these things.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 17:56:22 GMT -5
Amen... and this is why the Friends AND Workers are going to HELL... BECAUSE they are guilty of an absolute disgraceful and perverse sin called IDOLITARY............you can water it down...make yourself feel good about being in this way......... justify yourselves....... but because you wilfully choose to worship the Workers, Meetings and the Friends you WILL go to Hell!!You will argue and justify yourselves and say, "no that is not true......"I do not care how much I offend you guys (not one little bit), but I tell you the truth wether you like to believe it or not you are guilty of serving man and not God. The Friends, Workers & Meetings are summarised as IDOLITARY.Fact---no doubt about it what so ever --- and yet most of you are blind to this because of your own deceit!!!!
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 22, 2007 18:45:20 GMT -5
James, I have to disagree with you to.
For me salvation is about an individual relationship with God, not group membership.
Your quote "The Friends, Workers and Meetings are summarised as IDOLITARY."
I know of many friends and some workers whom this certainly does not apply to, and it would be remiss of me not to recognise a true Christian spirit within them, just as I have come to learn that Christ indwells in others from other Christian fellowships.
Within the general meaning of a "cult" I have to agree that the F&W's fellowship clearly fits the description of a cult given in most dictionaries. Therefore in my view it is a cult. However, so too are all the other Christian fellowships of all sizes and denominations. So, cult in this sense is a rather benign term.
Further, I do recognise and have experienced to my own severe detriment certain adverse cultic influences (such as fitting in) in the F&W's way, and this aspect certainly is not benign in my opinion.
Nevertheless, there are many in this way who have escaped or lived with these aspects and do show a proper Christian attitude whilst continuing in the way.
My own view is that "protection of the system" is paramount, even to the extent of suppressing the proper projection of CHrist. This becomes very apparent when issues and problems arise which threaten the the harmony and spirit which prevails when everything is hunky-dory.
Unfortunately, quiet waters never made a sailor, and they never made a Christian either. It is those in control who become slaves to the system who in turn subject those undergoing hard or troublesome times to their protectionist policies which inevitably turns the screw on those who are more in need of the easy yoke of Jesus.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 19:35:51 GMT -5
No Andrew...But you are mistaken!...The Friends and Meetings SUBMIT to the Workers. ...Do not deceive yourself Andrew..this is so obvious its scary!!!!....Likewise the Workers SUBMIT to other Workers and the Friends as well.......the whole group runs on idolatry!...
Do not justify yourself Andrew by saying, “However, so too are all the other Christian fellowships of all sizes and denominations.”,…….this has got nothing to do with it!
Furthermore there are fundamentally no differences between any of the Workers and Friends…They are all willingly in it. satan cannot be divided by satan!
Salvation should be between an individual and our Father in Heaven. ANDREW ..wake UP—this is not the case in your life or any of the Friends and Workers! You most definitely don’t have that relationship because you are in a cult where you worship those Workers. ANDREW WAKE UP!! All of you Friends worship the Workers.
To have a personal relationship with our Father in Heaven is an impossibility whilst inside the boundaries of the Friends & Workers & Meetings!........No Question about it!!
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Post by guesty on Feb 22, 2007 21:50:45 GMT -5
Buddy, take a breather and relax.
You refer to your feelings and thoughts as thought they define the thoughts and feelings of everyone that attends the meetings. That is not so. If you truly felt that way it is very good you left.
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Post by bluejay on Feb 22, 2007 22:19:27 GMT -5
James, I think I'd have to ask you the same question I asked Brad L. What do you hope to accomplish by posting in the manner you do?
You said
I know you've seen clearly now that a "group" can't save us. Well, "group" association can't cause our separation from Jesus for eternity either. It's all about a relationship with God - a personal one.
We can't know what's in the hearts of all f&w's (or anyone for that matter). I can remember some wonderfully kind, loving, spirit-filled people from my early years.
I don't agree with some of the doctrines/practices I see in the fellowship .... but I have no doubt there are people in meetings with a true relationship with Christ.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 22:27:12 GMT -5
I am very relaxed and enjoying life. I have a purpose in my life now. We are all created with a personal plan. We all have a destiny to fullfil. Those that are saved will also be judged, not on what they have done, but on what they have not done.
You are not my buddy! This is not about feelings and thoughts, this is about reality. This is about idolatry!
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Post by guesty on Feb 22, 2007 22:38:50 GMT -5
You are expressing your thoughts and feelings. You call them reality. And I'm sorry but you do seem quite anxious in your postings. I guess its all the exclamation points and bold font.
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Post by to James on Feb 22, 2007 23:03:42 GMT -5
I am very relaxed and enjoying life. I have a purpose in my life now. We are all created with a personal plan. We all have a destiny to fullfil. Those that are saved will also be judged, not on what they have done, but on what they have not done. ! [/b][/quote] Are you on a crusade to attract people to your religion? Maybe you are wanting to start a new group? Something more biblical than these other groups have. What do you require for your ministry? a university degree in religiosity? I think you are on to some thing, eh?
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 0:23:47 GMT -5
This is about what is right and what is wrong! This is about the Awesome Power Himself. This "I AM Who I Am" created you and me. What do you think (dare we do) God thinks when He can see HIS creation being worshiped by His creation?
Our God is a jealous God and He wants all the Glory and all the honour and all the power attributed to Him, that is to say -- God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!
The Friends and Workers in essence worship satan. You CANNOT have the intimate realationship with God by being within the confines of the Workers and Friends group.
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Post by Oh Oh on Feb 23, 2007 0:48:22 GMT -5
The Friends and Workers in essence worship satan. You CANNOT have the intimate realationship with God by being within the confines of the Workers and Friends group. Folks! look like we have another Brad Lewis on here. Are you two guys twins at birth by any chance.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 1:04:17 GMT -5
Ok, well Brad and me will be haveing a wonderful divine time in our glorified bodies knocking arround with Jesus and millions of other divine beings, while you will be in hell in torment. There will be a great gulf fixed between us and there will be nothing you can ever ever ever ever ever do about it because you made poor eternal choices whilst on earth.
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Post by Geoff on Feb 23, 2007 2:34:02 GMT -5
James claims that it is impossible to be saved within the 2x2 fellowship. Paints a picture of salvation only being possible by the right environment.
That being so, and with the world being a contaminated place (with evil) then following that logic it is impossible to be saved in this world.
Thats clearly not the message that Christ bought.
Now he claims that ONLY he and Brad will be saved. And he claims to be able to discern who is saved and who is not.
After a nicely worded post of caution, Andrew (Who I KNOW to be saved, and a committed Christian, and in fellowship somewhere other than the 2x2 fellowship) is blasted as being an unsaved wretch, one who needs to wake up etc.
Had James bothered to ask Andrew where he worships, (before leaping to conclusions of his own delusion), he might have discerned that he was merely pointing out an error in James post.
Now James, your credibility cannot go much lower. You assume (wrongly) that anyone who disagrees with you in this thread is a 2x2, when I suspect that I'm the only one. All the others who disagree are exes.
This is a one man crusade that excludes born again Christians.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 3:13:19 GMT -5
Oh, dont be so stupid man!
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 23, 2007 4:09:34 GMT -5
James, please take some time out to let the dust settle on these matters. It will benefit you.
God's mercy is not subject to his laws and stautes. That is why he can take care of every situation.
If I were to accept your argument I would in my mind be confining many faithful Christian people to a lost eternity, most of whom are less deserving of such a fate than myself.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 4:23:42 GMT -5
This is what Geoffs Friend Andrew posted slightly earlier. Geoff thinks Andrew is saved but Andrew like Geoff is not. This is what Andrew said earlier,
“My own view is that "protection of the system" is paramount, even to the extent of suppressing the proper projection of Christ”.
This man is a -------- (there are no words)……by his own admission to you all, his loyalty lies within the cult…..not our beloved Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ!
..tell you what Andrew, if you said that within the walls of my house (no chance of that) you would probably get my foot up your but!
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Post by Geoff on Feb 23, 2007 5:06:33 GMT -5
James,
You clearly didn't read what Andrew said.
He was critical of the 2x2 system and our way of "protecting the system", and you want to kick his Butt for supporting it?
Can you not recognise that most here do not support the 2x2 system?
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 23, 2007 5:09:54 GMT -5
Okay James, it seems that the way I worded that passage may be misleading to at least "one" person.
"My own view is that "protection of the system is paramount," even to the extent of suppressing the proper projection of Christ !"
THIS my dear James was MY VIEW of what is a MAJOR FAULT in the system, NOT "MY" support of this trait !
Now get your foot off MY butt ! If you were listening to our beloved Lord Jesus and Saviour you would have turned the other cheek instead of putting the boot in mine !
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 5:35:02 GMT -5
That turning the cheek is out of context. "My own view is that "protection of the system is paramount," even to the extent of suppressing the proper projection of Christ !" I want to make something absolutely clear. You think you can put the ownership on every one else in this cult except yourselves. .. The fact is that while you remain within this group you are one hundred per cent supporting these ways and ideals. As long as you are where you are, you come under the authority of the workers and their ways and furthermore you are saying (by your existence within the Friends & workers) to everyone this is ok....that is ok....This is where you deceive yourselves because you are very much just as guilty of what you accuse your co-fellowshippers of your faith!!If you know this is true...... WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ABOUT IT??ANSWER: NOTHING!!! Have you gone to all the workers and Friends that you possible could and been persistennt about it? ANSWER: NO YOU HAVE NOT!!!You are not living for Jesus Christ, you are liveing for the workers!!
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 23, 2007 6:23:57 GMT -5
James whether or not my "turning the other cheek" remark was out of context, I want you foot out of my butt !
Now, watch MY LIPS ! "I AM NOT A CURRENT MEMBER OF THE FRIENDS AND WORKERS FELLOWSHIP !" (Please re-read this 10 times so that it sticks in your mind !)
What have I done about things, you ask ? I have tried on several occasions to reason with Workers over personal and doctrinal issues. As a consequence I recently made a decision that I no longer regard myself as part of that fellowship !
I have not participated in the F&W's fellowship since late 1995. At that time I made no conscious decision to stop. I was b&r (4 generations). I merely stopped on account of personal circumstances making it impossible to continue (something Workers just can't understand !).
However, I have always (until recently) regarded myself as merely being "aside," and did resume attending Gospel meetings in the recent past, following a change in my personal circumstances. However, during the intervening period I had come into contact with many Christian people from other faiths in whom I clearly saw the spirit of Christ and I could no longer consider such people as "unsaved." Until this period I had known very little else of the religious world other than the F&W's.
To cut a long story short, the Workers did not accept my view that "others" could possibly be saved. along with my view that I looked to Jesus alone (no attached system) and that God had clearly been dealing with me during my years aside ! I had had to survive on this for 10 years, so who were the Workers to doubt what I had proved of God ?
On closer examination I discovered many things associated with the system that I no longer agree with, amongst other issues and recently made the decision that I was no longer "aside" but now no longer part of the fellowship.
Nevertheless I believe in being fair all round. I do not believe there is a perfect Christian fellowship, although this had been my belief in 2x2ism whilst an acting member. I don't think this notion is actively preached or believed nowadays ?
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 7:00:05 GMT -5
Of course there is no such thing as a perfect Christian Fellowship, no one in their right mind could make such a claim but we are not talking about that. When it comes down to it the people known as the Friends and Workers are in a fear based environment that is void of God, they worship man and they do not know Jesus Christ.
I’m pleased for anyone to be out of that way, maybe you can thump some sense into your friend Geoff. Anything you have got will benefit Geoff. I can see you got the but of things earlier. I hear what you say but there does seem to be a lot more healing to be done.
"My own view is that "protection of the system is paramount," even to the extent of suppressing the proper projection of Christ !"……………tell you what…..the Workers and Friends would never admit to this statement but it is an absolute reality within their faith. It is idolatry. I wonder how many people feel righteously angry when they hear this – because this in practical reality is a foundational truth.
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Post by Geoff on Feb 23, 2007 7:18:04 GMT -5
James said "The fact is that while you remain within this group you are one hundred per cent supporting these ways and ideals. "
Following this analogy then...
Anyone who lives in Australia must 100% support the racist values that the government of that country has practiced .
Clearly thats as much nonsense as whats James said.
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 23, 2007 7:27:23 GMT -5
I would disagree that the Friends and Workers are in a fear-based environment that is VOID OF GOD. Now pay attention to what I'm saying here ! By this I firmly believe there are F&W's who are clearly serving God and the proof of this is in the spirit these particular one's display.
I grew up indoctrinated there was only "one way" of fellowship and all others were false and their members were unsaved. I am not about to do a reverse angle of that shot ! Certainly I see that "the system" predominates at times where Christ should be expressed, but nevertheless I am not prepared to label all in that way as "unsaved !" If I do, I'd be as well re-joining the world. I feel that I am now in a better place now that I'm free of that judgemental, self-righteous outlook. God will decide who are his and who are not.
Healing is a long, continual process and there will always be permanent scars. I think you will echo this ?
Geoff comes from a different background from myself. It would appear that he has largely been free from the indoctrinal influences that I and my peers suffered. He relates things as he has experienced them and his views are good for overall balance. In fact much of what he says and has experienced would probably correlate to the days prior to the ousting of Irvine where there was no historical cover-up and when other Christians were accepted in the early days (up to 50% at the first conventions).
Actually more and more Friends are seeing that protection of the system over-rides the expression of Christ in delicate issues and I'm sure this will have its effects before long.
FWIW I see nothing wrong with an itinerant 2x2 ministry where the preachers have scattered all and remained chaste in order to more fully devote themselves to the Gospel message. This is a highly commendable position. However, where the Workers are wrong is in promoting this as a "mandatory" state in order to preach the Gospel when in fact it is a "free will" choice which is solidly in keeping with the Christian spirit. From this apparent "minor" difference" eminates "major" belief changes and the "protectionism" we have already touched upon.
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Post by scotsman on Feb 23, 2007 7:52:16 GMT -5
..tell you what Andrew, if you said that within the walls of my house (no chance of that) you would probably get my foot up your but!James Are you seriously suggesting that you would perpetrate physical violence on someone just becuase they held a different viewpoint to yourself ? and you claim to have the spirit of god ? are you sure you are not mixing the spirit of god up with man made religions like nazism or communism ? you appear to be fitting right in with those with your intolerance, your inability to listen, your abilty to present your views as absolute truth and you absolute hysterical condemnation of a specific denomination. I amost expect your next post to be " 4 legs good, 2 legs bad..."
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Post by me thinks on Feb 23, 2007 10:54:24 GMT -5
Ok, well Brad and me will be haveing a wonderful divine time in our glorified bodies knocking arround with Jesus and millions of other divine beings, while you will be in hell in torment. There will be a great gulf fixed between us and there will be nothing you can ever ever ever ever ever do about it because you made poor eternal choices whilst on earth. With cruel judgmental, mean-spirits you and Brad have manifested for all to see I don't think Jesus want to spent eternity with both of you. I don't believe He will allow these kinds of ill-spirits in heaven to begin with. You must change your attitude and spirit before you get your glorified bodies.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 23, 2007 14:32:00 GMT -5
It’s a figurative language Scotsman.
Without a shadow of a doubt (HA HA HA) the Friends and Workers is definitely fear based. No disrespect meant Andrew but you most certainly have not come to terms with your religious upbringing…….bottom line…one of the foundational truths of the Friends and Workers is that FEAR keeps them where they are……..they believe deep down that if they leave this way they are going to hell!!..........
Fear and Faith are on the same line, except fear goes one way and faith goes the other!…Oh there is so much obvious evidence…..most definitely FEAR rules the Friends….in fact everything in their lives is ruler by fear!!
People who leave the Meetings will continue to carry all the baggage until it is dealt with. THE FRIENDS, WORKERS & MEETINGS are IDOLITARY!
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