|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 22:14:04 GMT -5
nitro...um..you would't be majoring on minors here would you
|
|
|
Post by unlike you on Feb 20, 2007 22:24:32 GMT -5
nitro...um..you would't be majoring on minors here would you nahhh... not like you, he wouldn't dare!
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 22:28:14 GMT -5
now..now...when it comes to the Word of God that is different. ..Dont forget in the Bible it tells us not to add ANYTHING to Gods Word and it also tells us not to subtract ANYTHING from Gods Word.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 22:49:42 GMT -5
POLE ALLERT
On a scale of 1 to 10 please rate POST 395 for scriptural accuracy.
Also on a scale of 1 to 10 please rate for relevance. (10 is the highest).
There should be two numbers, the first for scriptural accuracy and the second for relevance. Thanking you for your participation.
|
|
|
Post by bluejay on Feb 20, 2007 23:01:18 GMT -5
We have close friends (not 2x2s) who are a psychiatrist and a psychologist (one of each in same family). After discussing this definition of a dysfunctional family, and discusing their intimate knowledge of our family, I'm glad to report that ours is not a Dysfunctional family.I though that the independent view would be worthwhile so that I don't miss the truth with all those scales on my eyes. Incidently they did not agree with the definition posted here, but even taking that definition we are still clear. It happens to agree with my own view that ours is not a dysfunctional family. And I'm also glad that I was not raised in a dysfunctional family myself. (Nor was I B&R). Hi Geoff, What a relief it must be to you to know you're not a "dysfunctional family!" Although, I'm sure you've heard the saying that dys functional families have more fun. All joking aside, as I see it a dogmatic belief of any kind can lead to some obsessively narrow minded views. For some of us b&r'd in the fellowship, we suffered from the total restriction of many activities, etc. Instead of being taught to balance our lives, put God first, listen to the promptings of the Spirit, etc. we were legislated as to what was "right" to do, and what wasn't. Within my own family there were variations of accepted activities depending on the parents. Some were more progressive in their thinking, others were very old-fashioned. It's even more interesting to me to compare the 20 somethings now in my family against how my generation was raised. For those b&r'd who had the strict, unbending type of parents, it'd be easy to classify their family as "dysfunctional", and it's also easy to see how resentment occurs as they now see the relative freedom some of the young professing have. All things considered, I believe for me personally my upbringing fostered many more positives than negatives. Some of the authority figures in my life were strict, others not so much. Lack of t.v. nurtured my love of reading, and "fear" of eternal damnation kept me (most of the time) out of harms way. I always felt loved, even though I painfully understood the disappointment my family had when I stopped attending meetings. My career enables me to interact with many families. Sadly, the term "dysfunctional family" applies to many who've never heard of the f&w's. I've learned over time to appreciate my family and the blessings I did have as a child.
|
|
|
Post by bluejay on Feb 20, 2007 23:44:40 GMT -5
quote - ****with jaw dropped**** Yes, they can both be right - it depends on the context of your conversation. For instance we believe in being saved by grace, BUT if you don't follow Christ's example, conform to His image, obey him in all things etc. etc. then where has your grace led you? Thus we believe in Grace and we believe in Works. Bert - are you saying that grace saves us, but if we don't "obey him in ALL things", he'll drop us into a lake of fire? What if we obey 80%? Maybe then He'll just lower us enough to singe our toes? Now I'm no biblical scholar, but I believe many people miss the beautiful simplicity of God's plan for our salvation. Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. This tells me that no one will be able to obey Christ in "all things", hence there can be salvation for no one, according to your interpretation.John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Finished is the word used in this verse. Christ was sent by God to provide salvation through his death and resurrection on the cross. Jesus says He finished the work - lived a perfect life (as none of us can), and was willing to be sacrificed for you and I. How could I ever believe I could do more? Yes, His life also served as an example to us - His love of the sinners, needy, poor, outcast & His anger at the self-righteous Pharisees come to mind. But again, not a single one of us could even come close to living the sin free life of Jesus. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Again, the word finished. If a task, or work is finished, it's impossible to do more, to be "more" finished! As it's been posted many, many times before here ........... Justification = saved by Grace = out of my hands completely. ---- That's salvation. Sanctification = the works that necessarily follow true justification. ---- The rewards awaiting all who are truly justified (saved) by grace alone.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 21, 2007 2:57:51 GMT -5
POLE ALLERT Corection
On a scale of 1 to 10 please rate POST 394 for scriptural accuracy.
Also on a scale of 1 to 10 please rate for relevance. (10 is the highest).
There should be two numbers, the first for scriptural accuracy and the second for relevance. Thanking you for your participation
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 21, 2007 4:05:10 GMT -5
Bluejay
It was no relief to know that I'm not in a dysfunctional family, I knew this all along. But its true that sometimes we cannot be objective about some things, and so an opinion was welcome.
In the same way it possible that I'm not being objective about this cult assertion that James promotes, but he refuses to asnwer any questions about that, and I think just ignores my posts. This demonstrates two things to me: 1. That he is UNCONCERNED about me as an individual, and by extension I assume unconcerned about others as individuals. 2. That he does not have answers to those questions.
Someone asked me how I got "sucked into" the 2x2s if I was not B&R. I was not "sucked in", there was no pressure differential that caused me to move involuntarily. Seeking a group to worship with, I asked to join. I (personally)have never claimed that the 2x2 way is perfect, that it is exclusively right, that any of the rules are necessary. I know there are some (many) who do, but having been a member of quite a number of denominations previously, I know they had problems too. I think this is a human trait, that we end up making social rules of belonging. These rules are sometimes based on ridiculous premises. That others have problems is not a reason to justify problems in ones own group, but it does keep perspective.
|
|
|
Post by Observing on Feb 21, 2007 9:04:22 GMT -5
jwbdurston:
I feel compelled to bring up an earlier post, No.112. This post is by Observing in response to Post No.108 sent by myself. This post that I sent is basically the gift of Jesus Christ for those that become Christians. Say it how you want but say it in sincerity and you have a place in heaven. It is about repentance and inviting the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart to be your Lord and Saviour.
I think this states very well what you believe. I also think when the JWs come to my door they believe they are bringing the gift of salvation to me as well.
jwbdurston: ..Well, Observing said, “James, you believe that this incantation has magical properties that will ensure that anyone who recites it will be saved. The words project your beliefs and as such is not open to discussion. I, for one, do not believe it has the magical properties you ascribe to it.......Incantations & magical properties are absolutely directly joined and of satan!
I think you need to reread this bit Jim. I said I did NOT believe what you had posted had the magical .qualities qualities you said it had. In other words, you were offering me,and anyone who read what you had written (or copied), the gift of eternal life. I simply do not believe that whet you had written had the power to do that.
If I did believe there was some incantation that I could give people to read that would be blasphemy. I would have taken upon myself powers that belong to God.
jwbdurston: This, for some people, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is unforgivable. I wonder how many of you readers really realise what a serious act has been committed by Observing here! By Observings own admission he is not a Christian and by default will suffer eternal torment in hell. For those that understand the Word of God I would urge you to join me in prayer for Observing.
Please explain how my saying that what you have written did not have the power you claimed in any way out of line?
Now, if you were God - that would be a different story. But, Jim, I don't believe you are God nor do I believe you speak for him.
jwbdurston: .....and V32 continues….. “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come”.
Jim, I spoke against what you had written. Do you think you speak for God on this?
jwbdurston: I believe Observing probably (or did then) acted out of stupidity and dumb ignorance and therefore is not unpardonable. Observing is a menace to this forum and does the work of the devil. He is not a Christian and has twisted thinking. Once again I urge all readers to take no notice of this person!
I believe I stated what I did about the work you posted because I do not believe the statement was accurate.
If you believe you can obtain salvation simply by reciting a saying, that is great.
There are, as you know, many things that the Pentecostals believe, especially the Oneness Pentecostal movement, that fly in the face of other Christian sects. That is why, James, their teachings were labeled as heresy.
James. You decry the fact that the F&W was started in the late 1800s. But you seem to have thrown your lot in with a group that had its start in 1901 in a chapel in Topeka, Kansas.
You put a lot of faith in the practice of speaking in tongues, a practice that did not burst onto the scene until 1906 in an African-American Baptist church in Los Angeles, California.
By 1913, the group was teaching that the Trinity doctrine was untrue.
This is the foundation of the beliefs you are presenting here and I, like many others, reject your premise.
You claim that the F&W do not follow scripture.
The beliefs of the Oneness Pentecostal organization have been called heresy.
Don't you see how you have moved from one heretical group to another heretical group?
Now it could very well be that you are not a believer in the Oneness Pentecostal theology. but since you do not answer questions I am putting that forth as my best guess based on what you have posted.
|
|
|
Post by bluejay on Feb 21, 2007 12:11:34 GMT -5
Bluejay It was no relief to know that I'm not in a dysfunctional family, I knew this all along. Hi Geoff, I'm sorry if I misled you with my comment regarding relief your family isn't dysfunctional. It was said tongue in cheek, as I've come to see through your posts on these boards that you're an honest, thoughtful, fair and non-judgmental person. By extension - I know those are qualities that foster a well-functioning family unit. I see you as someone who has his eyes wide open regarding the issues of contention in the f&w's fellowship, as discussed on these sites. You do acknowledge the wrongs done to others, and never "defend" blindly the f&w's nor their actions when in error. You choose by your own free will to remain in the fellowship, and rightly have seen the human failures in others groups - not just the "friends". I understand that the f&w's are a good fit spiritually for you - but you've never asserted it's the same for all others, nor essential for all individuals salvation.
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 21, 2007 13:36:03 GMT -5
Bluejay
Sorry I misread your intent - thats easy to get wrong in this written only medium. :-) I see now that you point it out the your tongue was indeed firmly planted in your cheek! I did wonder about dysfunctional, and then too I've wondered if what I needed was extreme dysfunctional.?
You've stated my position more concisely that I could.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 21, 2007 14:04:14 GMT -5
POINT 4: The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background.
With very few exceptions we were raised in dysfunctional families. (I am chiefly talking about those that have been borne and raised in this way.---For others this may still be true...but is another subject in it self)
For those that have ‘crossed over to the other side’ can look back and see clearly but for those that are still embroiled in ‘this way’ it will be a lot harder to see and admit the truth.
The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well
A functional family considers problems to be a normal part of life. Functional families work to solve problems, cope, deal with and dispose of the emotions that arise. So they are not threatened by problems but rather see them as challenges to work through.
Dysfunctional families are not like that, problems are ignored, they are not dealt with because a dysfunctional family is trying to maintain their image, especially shame based dysfunctional families, image maintenance is critical.
You have to keep up the illusion that the family is perfect. Problems are swept into a pile and shoved into a corner that will eventually turn into a volcano.
You are not allowed to let anyone know what is going on in you’re heart. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in your life. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in the home.
So all energy is not spent on solving problems but on hiding reality from others.
In a functional family feelings are acknowledged, valued, explored and resolved. In a dysfunctional family you cant go there.
Now I can tell you now that the above definition of a dysfunctional family is 101 percent spot on and is totally relevant to the Friends & Workers. There is absolutely no doubt about this whatsoever. This is supported by professional and recognised qualified persons. As children we were raised in this way and it shamed us and had far reaching consequences
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 21, 2007 15:04:48 GMT -5
"There is absolutely no doubt about this whatsoever. This is supported by professional and recognised qualified persons. "
There is considerable doubt about this, and there are qualified professional people who challenge these assertions.
|
|
|
Post by To James on Feb 21, 2007 15:47:41 GMT -5
James, first of all I want you to know that I am completely convinced that the 2x2s are a cult, spiritually abusive group, destructive religous group, performance based group.....whatever you want to call it. I have discussed it with Geoff on other threads, as well as the dude with the masters that started the thread about "Why the 2x2s are not a cult". I'm trying to say I'm with you on this issue..... so with that, I'd like to give you some advice.....before you ever lay out a card in a debate, make sure you have a winning hand and the card you play will help you win; IE as far as whether the 2x2s are a cult or not - you're on the winning side of the debate, but man you are playing your cards really poorly. Playing the "dysfunctional family" card as strongly as you have is a bad move, IMO. I wasn't even B&R, let alone in a dysfunctional family, does that make the 2x2s less of a cult? It's not a strong argument. Are there dysfunctional families in the 2x2s, of course. But there are dysfunctional families everywhere and I'd bet any amount of money that a good sociologist could argue that they're as much a product of society as any religious influence. Bottom line is that there are many good cards to play in the debate about the spiritually abusive nature of the 2x2s (there's more than 4 aces even). I'd suggest that you throw this one into the pot and move on. BTW, if you're interested in a great, great book check out "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". It's the best I've seen. It's focus is on healing, which I'm not ashamed to say I need a lot of. I sense that you do, too. Check it out, it will help you.
|
|
|
Post by honesty on Feb 21, 2007 15:59:56 GMT -5
I'd like to give you some advice.....before you ever lay out a card in a debate, make sure you have a winning hand and the card you play will help you win; IE as far as whether the 2x2s are a cult or not - you're on the winning side of the debate, but man you are playing your cards really poorly. Playing the "dysfunctional family" card as strongly as you have is a bad move I concur. There are some very NON-dysfunctional families in 2x2s, but that too is irrelevant to the cult/groupthink/newspeak status of the 2x2 group.
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 21, 2007 21:13:09 GMT -5
No, Geoff there is no doubt at all. I do not believe there are qualified people who disagree with this. Surely qualified people would agree with this because it is obviously easy to understand and is true. I say again, the above description is 100% accurate and can be unanimously supported not only by professionals but by people who have come out of these environments and moved on. This is not hard for most people to understand Geoff.
A functional family considers problems to be a normal part of life. Functional families work to solve problems, cope, deal with and dispose of the emotions that arise. So they are not threatened by problems but rather see them as challenges to work through.
Dysfunctional families are not like that, problems are ignored, they are not dealt with because a dysfunctional family is trying to maintain their image, especially shame based dysfunctional families, image maintenance is critical.
You have to keep up the illusion that the family is perfect. Problems are swept into a pile and shoved into a corner that will eventually turn into a volcano.
You are not allowed to let anyone know what is going on in you’re heart. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in your life. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in the home.
So all energy is not spent on solving problems but on hiding reality from others.
In a functional family feelings are acknowledged, valued, explored and resolved. In a dysfunctional family you cant go there.
The above is true for many many families and people that have been raised in the Meetings. …Wether you would like to agree or not this is the 4th foundational truth of the Friends & Workers.
I appreciate post 410 and I reckon it is a convincing argument. It would appear that there are indeed families within the Friends & Meetings that may be classified as functional families. However this is the exception and not the norm. Whatever the balance is, is really besides the point. Post 411 accurately summarises it: “I concur. There are some very NON-dysfunctional families in 2x2s, but that too is irrelevant to the cult/groupthink/newspeak status of the 2x2 group”.
Without a doubt this is an ‘ace card’ when it comes to the realisation that the Friends & Workers are a cult. Let me put it this way. If you look at society it is held (or should be, or one hopes so) together by the family. The family if you like is the DNA to society. Look at families now and look at society. What I am saying is that this is an extremely relevant point that shows a terrible breakdown within the family. The reason why there are so many dysfunctional families within the Meetings is a direct result of being raised in this cult. Yes I know there are many other dysfunctional families out side of this group, but so what, it does not take away from the argument and still needs to be addressed as to why this is so and I will look forward to that!
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 2:04:29 GMT -5
POLE ALLERT Corection AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!On a scale of 1 to 10 please rate POST 394 for scriptural accuracy.
Also on a scale of 1 to 10 please rate for relevance. (10 is the highest).
There should be two numbers, the first for scriptural accuracy and the second for relevance. Thanking you for your participation Hey guys it is now post 393. How come? Who is changing the Post numbers? It has changed twice now and has happened on other reference occasions! Why is this happenibg?
|
|
|
Post by pinky on Feb 22, 2007 2:32:52 GMT -5
Mr Durston...
a pole is something a fireman slides down...
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 2:45:33 GMT -5
This forum is being manipulated!
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 22, 2007 2:53:20 GMT -5
The frequency of logic errors are unfortunately seriously discrediting James' posts.
To make a main point saying "2x2 families are ALL dysfunctional", then to conceded that indeed some are not, then to state that ...
"Whatever the balance is, is really besides the point. "
and to state that ... "I say again, the above description is 100% "
Its very difficult to follow these leaps of inconsistency.
When challenged, James states "I do not believe there are qualified people who disagree with this."
And this from someone claiming that the 2x2s have scales on their eyes, refusing to accept any views other than their own.
To state that there is no doubt at all about a statement is clearly false when there is written doubt posted by several. Are you saying that the doubters do not exist?
Now don't take me wrongly here. There ARE dysfunctional 2x2 familes. I could not claim any different. I know some. I've seen some. I know a very small percentage of the population of 2x2s, so I cannot make sweeping generalisations about them ALL. James this is what you are doing - making a sweeping generalisation based on insufficient knowledge. How big was your survey of 2x2 families? How are you qualified to judge?
And when will you answer my question?
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 3:47:26 GMT -5
I dont believe any discredit has come my way Geoff. You are a simple man and also deceived.
This forum is being manipulated and it is easy to spot! I cant believe all you posters are happy with that.
Earlier on I left a colourful post concerning Observing. I made a reference to it latter as Post400 (currently). About 3 posts latter I made the same post announcing a correction to post 394.
Later after revisiting that particular post I noticed it was a different post no again. It is now (currently) 193.
I now realise all along these posts have been manipulated. I recall when I was being impersonated the same thing happened and I put it down to personal error. I now realise someone all along has been manipulating this forum.
|
|
|
Post by colourful on Feb 22, 2007 4:25:12 GMT -5
[ Earlier on I left a colourful post concerning Observing. Yes, I remember . It was. But not my tastes, you seem to like blue and red a lot. The yellow and pink are more straining to the eye, but they add some variance to the blund rhetoric that is pasted on top of the colors. I am look forward to more colors in future.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 22, 2007 4:28:40 GMT -5
James, If you want to get a poll started, you can go to the main sub board page and start a poll. Look in the upper right corner. I THINK that only registered users can answer the poll, and we can only do so once. It is probably the best way of getting a poll going that you can reference to and not get too many people screwing it up. I'm not sure who is going to be answering you, you seem to want us to participate in the hopes of getting the "right" answers, but when you tell us to "go away" it's not easy to get in the mood to participate in a survey. Going away again.....for now. Scott
|
|
|
Post by Geoff on Feb 22, 2007 4:40:02 GMT -5
James said "I dont believe any discredit has come my way Geoff. You are a simple man and also deceived."
This could mean that I am "simple" as well as "deceived" (also deceived)
or it could mean That I am deceived as well as James. Can be read both ways, and the meaning isn't clear. It demonstates the difficulty of the written word in using such a forum as this.
And "simple" might mean "stupid", or it might mean uncomplicated
So this line could mean: "You are an uncomplicated man and I am also deceived."
The manipulation of the forum could be intentional, but I suspect is unintentional. If I delete one of my posts (as a registered user), then all subsequent posts would be re-numbered. (I think). I haven't deleted any of my posts, but someone might have delete theirs.
|
|
|
Post by maybe James on Feb 22, 2007 4:56:58 GMT -5
Maybe james is deleting some of his threads, as many of them don't make any sense. Are you playing games James?
Maybe we could take a poll, now, and see how many readers are ignoring his poll.
I can think of 6 posters that have posted, and did not answer his poll, I think it is a confusing poll, or pole or whatever....
|
|
|
Post by jwbdurston on Feb 22, 2007 5:00:22 GMT -5
Now..within the Fourth foundational point which is about dysfunctional families, as a DIRECT result of being raised within the Friends & Workers, are many other things that fall under this catorgory which contribute in constituteing a cult.
We have to now ask ourselves what exactly makes and causes these families to be dysfunctional?
|
|
|
Post by R U on Feb 22, 2007 5:13:42 GMT -5
You seem to know about dysfunctional families.
Can you tell me if I am in a dysfunctional family? eh?
|
|
|
Post by wonderwonder on Feb 22, 2007 5:18:35 GMT -5
You seem to know about dysfunctional families. Can you tell me if I am in a dysfunctional family? eh? Are you trying to say that dysfunctional families aren't being loved by God, because they are dysfunctional? Is this the fault of the parents or the kids? Are your parents also dysfunctional like you are? huh?
|
|