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Post by Flawed Thinking on Feb 19, 2007 17:44:22 GMT -5
Quote: Of course, there are several truths about Christ, such as His virgin birth and His resurrection and the fact that the Triune God is the Creator of all things, that must also be believed in.
What?
So you have to believe in the virgin birth to be saved? What nonsense. I'm afraid the devil has you hoodwinked just as it is prophesised that he would the very elect. This board is littered with the corpses of those who claim to have been deceived by the devil once but whose continued selfrighteousness makes them blind to the fact that they may have been again (not realising that this was the same selfrighteousness that brought about their deception in the first place).
My bible makes is pretty plain clear that Jesus was descended from King David through his father Joseph. Are you suggesting that Jesus wasn't the son of Joseph and that the geneology found in my version of the bible is somewhat flawed?
I'm afraid your post smacks of 2x2 exclusitivity. I guess you can take the man out of the 2x2s but you can't take the 2x2 out of the man!
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 19, 2007 17:51:49 GMT -5
Hi flawed thinking, Not sure which bible you are looking at, but my KJV with all the 'begats', and my NIV with it's 'father ofs', both come down to saying Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ. Never does say that Joseph is the father, just that Mary is the mother. Scott
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More Flawed Thinking
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Post by More Flawed Thinking on Feb 19, 2007 18:23:00 GMT -5
Scott
My bible says (Luke Chapter 3 v 23):
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli which was the son of Mathhat etc. This would seem to me to indicate that Jesus was indeed the son of Joseph (although it begs the question whether Joseph was the son of Heli as Luke seemed to think or the son of Jacob as Matthew clearly believes.)
John Chapter 1 verse 45 also states that:
Philip finding Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, did write Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. Are we to doubt Philip?
Even within the begats and begots it says (after clearly setting out the generations from the carrying away into Babylon) that there are fourteen generations from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ. If Jesus wasn't the son of Joseph where does the foureenth generation come from?
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Post by OzE on Feb 19, 2007 18:37:15 GMT -5
So you have to believe in the virgin birth to be saved? What nonsense. I'm afraid the devil has you hoodwinked just as it is prophesised that he would the very elect.
So you don't believe Mary was a virgin?
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
It doesn't mention the devil but it does say IF it were possible, the elect might be deceived, but it isn't. It's impossible.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 19, 2007 21:05:44 GMT -5
Friends, Paul said: 'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness', and as the end of the age comes they will increase the more. Need I say, therefore, how important an understanding like this is? Could I challenge you afresh to be where God's word is expounded, and to read the word yourself, and to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so.
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. POINT 2: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, that you cannot fellowship in churchy looking buildings. POINT 3: The Matthew 10 foundation is a transgression and is completely misunderstood and totally misrepresented.
POINT 4: The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background.
I hope now to deal a little with this foundational truth of the Friends and Workers which constitutes a cult.
With very few exceptions (and I do not believe there are any here on this forum) we were raised in dysfunctional families. (I am chiefly talking about those that have been borne and raised in this way.---For others this may still be true...but is another subject in it self)
For those that have ‘crossed over to the other side’ can look back and see clearly but for those that are still embroiled in ‘this way’ it will be a lot harder to see and admit the truth.
The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well.
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Post by I agree on Feb 19, 2007 21:07:10 GMT -5
So.... why are you afraid to write down your actual beliefs? Why are you so argumentative about doing this? What are you afraid of? The bible is the totally and complete statement of belief.Whole, not part or broken up.Why are you afraid of ? By the way, I am not arguing with you.
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Post by to James on Feb 19, 2007 21:13:21 GMT -5
But shun profane and vain babblings: ] I agree that anyone that is speaking in tongues should be shunned, or maybe committed to therapy? Thanks, James for pointing this out.
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Post by really on Feb 19, 2007 21:16:33 GMT -5
By the way, I am not arguing with you. Yes you are.
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Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 19, 2007 21:22:32 GMT -5
quote - ****with jaw dropped****
Yes, they can both be right - it depends on the context of your conversation. For instance we believe in being saved by grace, BUT if you don't follow Christ's example, conform to His image, obey him in all things etc. etc. then where has your grace led you? Thus we believe in Grace and we believe in Works.
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Post by the answers on Feb 19, 2007 21:44:51 GMT -5
we believe in being saved by grace, Sure, right. Too bad to lump all this extra baggage along with it. BUT if you don't follow Christ's example, conform to His image, obey him in all things etc. etc. then where has your grace led you? Who's grace? Looks like you need to go back to the Bible. Thus we believe in Grace and we believe in Works. Your works will never save you. Good luck trying. Don't hold your breath meanwhile.
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timber
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Post by timber on Feb 19, 2007 21:51:56 GMT -5
I don't think you're talking about grace Bert. Its something else. For it is by grace you are saved.. that is the grace I believe in. I sin. again and again. I keep going back to the Lord for forgiveness. It is given. I didn't deserve it. That is grace to me. Cleansing. White as snow. Me helping to hammer in the spike in Christ's hand. He, telling me - "It is done". You are healed. That is grace to me.
A person who thinks that grace is a license to sin isn't talking about grace. Its something else.
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Post by OzE on Feb 19, 2007 22:21:05 GMT -5
your grace
It isn't YOUR grace Bert it's God's and grace isn't grace if it has conditions. How can it be grace, which means getting what we don't deserve, if you somehow believe we have to earn/deserve it?
The Gospel is the Good News of grace! So, as salvation is all of grace, one must place all one’s trust in all that grace says about salvation. Failure to do this is a sure sign that one is believing in a false gospel which allows room for a man to boast in his works.
The word of God says that He "...hath saved us, and called us...not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace..." (2 Tim. 1:9).
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Post by Observing on Feb 20, 2007 0:51:44 GMT -5
jwbdurston: POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved.
James, before you go too far down the road with your points you really need to address the first few points.
Since Jesus is on record as saying there is only one way that one can be saved how can you say thy is is not biblical?
Are you saying that Christianity is not the only way to be saved or are you saying Christianity is not Biblical?
jwbdurston: POINT 2: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, that you cannot fellowship in churchy looking buildings. I think you have to address the fact that the F&W do not believe this any more than the Oneness Pentecostals do. Just because you hold some of these beliefs does not mean they are correct.
jwbdurston: POINT 3: The Matthew 10 foundation is a transgression and is completely misunderstood and totally misrepresented.
IO think the jury is still out on this point.
jwbdurston: POINT 4:The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background.
This might be your experience but it is not mine nor, do I believe, it is universal.
jwbdurston: With very few exceptions (and I do not believe there are any here on this forum) we were raised in dysfunctional families. (I am chiefly talking about those that have been borne and raised in this way.---For others this may still be true...but is another subject in it self) James, you came from what seems to me to be an extremely dysfunctional family. Thousands of people do but it is not necessarily the fault of the religion.
I was B&R in the 2x2 religion and would classify my life as normal at worst but, when I compare it to the people I was in school with, I would have to say it was better than most.
jwbdurston: For those that have ‘crossed over to the other side’ can look back and see clearly but for those that are still embroiled in ‘this way’ it will be a lot harder to see and admit the truth.
This is your truth but is not the truth of everyone. I have not been in the 2x2 for decades but still do not feel that there was any negative aspect to my upbringing that can be blamed on the F&W religion.
jwbdurston: The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well.
So you are going to tell us what a dysfunctional family is? This should be interesting given you are of the understanding that all people raised in the F&W way are in dysfunctional families.
Tell me Jim, from all you have posted and what you have gone through, the fact that you have gone from one restrictive religion to another (and seemingly do not even realize that you are in much the same situation) it would seem that you could benefit from some counseling.
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Post by Geoff on Feb 20, 2007 2:31:39 GMT -5
Quote: "With very few exceptions (and I do not believe there are any here on this forum) we were raised in dysfunctional families. "
So you say that "without exception" ALL on this board were raised in "dysfunctional familes".
And you say that without knowing most of them or their background.
I can state unequivocaly that I WAS NOT raised in a dysfunctional family.
Further. Quote "The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background. "
I do not come from a shame based background.
You have made some pretty amazing, wild accusations James, most without any form of backup, most without any evidence, and with a rapidly slipping credibility.
If your objective is to bring people to Christ, then this is not the way to do it - by making false accusations against them.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 2:58:29 GMT -5
POINT 4: The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background. I hope now to deal a little with this foundational truth of the Friends and Workers which constitutes a cult.
With very few exceptions (and I do not believe there are any here on this forum) we were raised in dysfunctional families. (I am chiefly talking about those that have been borne and raised in this way.---For others this may still be true...but is another subject in it self)
For those that have ‘crossed over to the other side’ can look back and see clearly but for those that are still embroiled in ‘this way’ it will be a lot harder to see and admit the truth.
The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well
A functional family considers problems to be a normal part of life. Functional families work to solve problems, cope, deal with and dispose of the emotions that arise. So they are not threatened by problems but rather see them as challenges to work through.
Dysfunctional families are not like that, problems are ignored, they are not dealt with because a dysfunctional family is trying to maintain their image, especially shame based dysfunctional families, image maintenance is critical.
You have to keep up the illusion that the family is perfect. Problems are swept into a pile and shoved into a corner that will eventually turn into a volcano.
You are not allowed to let anyone know what is going on in you’re heart. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in your life. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in the home.
So all energy is not spent on solving problems but on hiding reality from others.
In a functional family feelings are acknowledged, valued, explored and resolved. In a dysfunctional family you cant go there.
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Post by Observing on Feb 20, 2007 4:16:20 GMT -5
jwbdurston POINT 4: The Friends and Workers come from a shamed based background.
I hope now to deal a little with this foundational truth of the Friends and Workers which constitutes a cult.
With very few exceptions (and I do not believe there are any here on this forum) we were raised in dysfunctional families. (I am chiefly talking about those that have been borne and raised in this way.---For others this may still be true...but is another subject in it self)
Again, James you are wrong.
I can unequivocally state I was not raised in a dysfunctional family and I know a great many others, some who have left and some who are still professing, that are not in dysfunctional families.
You continue to state what can easily be seen as false statements and then try to build your case on these false statements.
I think what we are seeing is projection.
jwbdurston For those that have ‘crossed over to the other side’ can look back and see clearly but for those that are still embroiled in ‘this way’ it will be a lot harder to see and admit the truth.
James, you are in need of somehow coming into touch with reality.
jwbdurston The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well
A functional family considers problems to be a normal part of life. Functional families work to solve problems, cope, deal with and dispose of the emotions that arise. So they are not threatened by problems but rather see them as challenges to work through.
Dysfunctional families are not like that, problems are ignored, they are not dealt with because a dysfunctional family is trying to maintain their image, especially shame based dysfunctional families, image maintenance is critical. <snip - redundant text>
Jim, that seems to be one definition of a dysfunctional family but I do not think you can blame this on the F&W (as seems to be your goal) unless you can show that this is any more common in the F&W than it is in the general population.
Jim- you need to listen to what others ar saying. Your posts are simply inaccurate.
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Post by Observing on Feb 20, 2007 4:29:14 GMT -5
OzE : So you don't believe Mary was a virgin?
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
As it turns out, the bible is not at all clear on this point. Some say the verse in Isaiah is mistranslated and was in the time of Jesus as well. The gospel writers were just trying to fulfill what they thought was in the OT.
almah - the word means a young woman of marriageable age.
Some insist it means virgin.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 5:20:06 GMT -5
Although these posts would benefit Observing they are not intended for his interaction. I would strongly advise that you take little notice of Observings posts as he has time and again clearly demonstrated a perverse understanding of the word of God. By his own previous admissions he has not come to an understanding of Jesus Christ, at the very best he has a religious spirit.
The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well.
A functional family considers problems to be a normal part of life. Functional families work to solve problems, cope, deal with and dispose of the emotions that arise. So they are not threatened by problems but rather see them as challenges to work through.
Dysfunctional families are not like that, problems are ignored, they are not dealt with because a dysfunctional family is trying to maintain their image, especially shame based dysfunctional families, image maintenance is critical.
You have to keep up the illusion that the family is perfect. Problems are swept into a pile and shoved into a corner that will eventually turn into a volcano.
You are not allowed to let anyone know what is going on in you’re heart. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in your life. You are not allowed to let anyone know what’s going on in the home.
So all energy is not spent on solving problems but on hiding reality from others.
In a functional family feelings are acknowledged, valued, explored and resolved. In a dysfunctional family you cant go there.
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Post by Observing on Feb 20, 2007 9:15:02 GMT -5
jwbdurston: Although these posts would benefit Observing they are not intended for his interaction. I would strongly advise that you take little notice of Observings posts as he has time and again clearly demonstrated a perverse understanding of the word of God. By his own previous admissions he has not come to an understanding of Jesus Christ, at the very best he has a religious spirit.
Also, I am not afraid to ask James the question about points he raises and tell him when there are errors in what he is using as a foundation in an attempt to support his preconceived notions. I have never tried to say anything about anyone's belief in God other than to point out that if you call some religion a cult because it claims an exclusive way to salvation that you would have to include Christianity as well. jwbdurston: The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. To help us understand I will explain what a functional family is as well.It might help if you were to define these things not in terms of what you have experienced but rather how they are actually defined and then see how they apply to your situation. Here's a little help: Health care professionals define dysfunctional family as one where the relationships among family members are not conducive to emotional and physical health.
Dysfunctional families - A family that has difficulty functioning and communicating in emotionally healthy ways; a family that has a negative environment which contributes little to the personal development and growth of family members.
Some of the characteristics of dysfunctional family systems are as follows:
- Blaming; failure to take responsibility for personal actions and feelings; and invalidation of other family members' feelings.
- Boundaries between family members that are either too loose or too rigid. For example, the parent may depend excessively on the child for emotional support (loose boundaries) or prevent the child from developing autonomy by making all the decisions for the child (rigid boundaries).
- Boundaries between the family as a whole and the outside world may also be too loose or too rigid.
- A tendency for family members to enact set roles--caregiver, hero, scapegoat, saint, bad girl or boy, little prince or princess--that serve to restrict feelings, experience, and self-expression.
- A tendency to have an "identified patient"--one family member who is recognized as mentally unhealthy, who may or may not be in treatment, but whose symptoms are a sign of the inner family conflict. Often the identified patient's problems function to disguise the larger family issues. For example, a child may be regarded as a bully and a troublemaker in school and labeled a "problem child," when he may in fact be expressing conflicts and problems, such as abuse from home, by acting out and being "bad."
Wikipedia has some views on this as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysfunctional_familyNotice these are family issues and not religious issues. They can, and often do, happen in families regardless of their religious affiliation and are seen to continue even when a family moves from one religious group to another. It should be noted that the victims usually move to groups that are similar and often extreme within their religion. For example - moving from the F&W to the Oneness Pentecostal church. Although often speaking out against control some people feel much more comfortable in systems that provide a firm and controlling structure.
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Post by Jonas on Feb 20, 2007 9:32:43 GMT -5
Although these posts would benefit Observing they are not intended for his interaction. I would strongly advise that you take little notice of Observings posts as he has time and again clearly demonstrated a perverse understanding of the word of God.The first thing we have to clearly establish is what a dysfunctional family is. You are not allowed to let anyone know what is going on in you’re heart. In a dysfunctional family you cant go there. James, it is very clear that even your definition of a dysfunctional family has gaping flaws in it. I have been around what I would consider dysfunctional families, and they are very open, and tell each other what is going on in their heart. Dysfunctional families come in all shapes and sizes. And for your information, I do think you should listen to some of the sound advise that has been directed toward you, as you do not seem to understand what you are saying. Is this what Paul meant, when he said , to avoid vain babbling. [or was he refering to those that thought they were speaking in tongues?
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Whats the differencce
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Post by Whats the differencce on Feb 20, 2007 9:51:32 GMT -5
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Post by Geoff on Feb 20, 2007 13:12:48 GMT -5
We have close friends (not 2x2s) who are a psychiatrist and a psychologist (one of each in same family). After discussing this definitioin of a dysfunctional family, and discusing their intimate knowledge of our family, I'm glad to report that ours is not a Dysfunctional family. I though that the independent view would be worthwhile so that I don't miss the truth with all those scales on my eyes. Incidently they did not agree with the definition posted here, but even taking that definition we are still clear.
It happens to agree with my own view that ours is not a dysfunctional family. And I'm also glad that I was not raised in a dysfunctional family myself. (Nor was I B&R).
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Post by Q for geoff on Feb 20, 2007 14:06:31 GMT -5
geoff,
You say were not born and raised in this cult, then how did you get sucked into it?
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Feb 20, 2007 19:11:28 GMT -5
geoff, You say were not born and raised in this cult, then how did you get sucked into it? It could be that for some the experience in the F&W is positive. You have to believe that when people say they are satisfied they are telling the truth.
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 20:37:10 GMT -5
Although these posts would benefit Observing they are not intended for his interaction. I would strongly advise that you take little notice of Observings posts as he has time and again clearly demonstrated a perverse understanding of the word of God. By his own previous admissions he has not come to an understanding of Jesus Christ, at the very best he has a religious spirit.
I feel compelled to bring up an earlier post, No.112. This post is by Observing in response to Post No.108 sent by myself. This post that I sent is basically the gift of Jesus Christ for those that become Christians. Say it how you want but say it in sincerity and you have a place in heaven. It is about repentance and inviting the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart to be your Lord and Saviour.
..Well, Observing said, “James, you believe that this incantation has magical properties that will ensure that anyone who recites it will be saved. The words project your beliefs and as such is not open to discussion. I, for one, do not believe it has the magical properties you ascribe to it.......Incantations & magical properties are absolutely directly joined and of satan!
This, for some people, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is unforgivable. I wonder how many of you readers really realise what a serious act has been committed by Observing here! By Observings own admission he is not a Christian and by default will suffer eternal torment in hell. For those that understand the Word of God I would urge you to join me in prayer for Observing.
Jesus Christ covers all sin. Blasphemy falls outside sin and is unpardonable. Now check these scriptures out: Matthew 12 V31: (..and this is Jesus Himself speaking here!) “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
.....and V32 continues….. “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come”.
Serious stuff isn’t it readers? I just want to put this verse into context as to why Jesus said it when He did……The Pharisees slandered the Holy Spirit by knowledgeably attributing His work to the devil, thus committing the “unpardonable sin”. Their sin was not an act of impulse or ignorance, but the result of a continued and wilful rejection of the truth concerning Jesus Christ. It was a sin against spiritual knowledge, for they had ample evidence of the truth from the words and deeds of Jesus. In deliberately choosing to insult the Spirit, they forfeited His ministry in their lives and WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.
I believe Observing probably (or did then) acted out of stupidity and dumb ignorance and therefore is not unpardonable. Observing is a menace to this forum and does the work of the devil. He is not a Christian and has twisted thinking. Once again I urge all readers to take no notice of this person!
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 20, 2007 20:47:31 GMT -5
Hey there Jimmy D, Aren't you glad that you finally registered.... Your new color scheme is really something.... Your messages leave something to desired.... I sure hope you find what you're seeking, whatever it is has become less obvious the more I read your posts. We all have our own personal relationship with God. I wish you would quit trying to be the judge of the rest of us. Let us worry about our own salvation. I do wonder why you don't care to participate on any of the other threads which are posted on TMB. You may be able to contribute more productively with us if you could share your experiences on other issues. Scott
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Post by jwbdurston on Feb 20, 2007 21:03:52 GMT -5
No Scott, I think what I am doing is very productive and will help many people. Perhaps you can go over to another thread. Thank you very much and goodby.
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Post by nitro on Feb 20, 2007 21:10:44 GMT -5
jwbdurston It's Goodbye not goodby ;D
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