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Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 19, 2007 10:22:58 GMT -5
quote - But lets be clear here. Just because "people back then" were treated like you think you are being treated does not mean you are like those "people back then". Good point, but the corollary of this is - take note if you are not being treated like those folk. Billy Graham is reported to have said he was concerned with that scripture which says "Woe when all men speak well of you."
quote - This is one of the fallacies of your group bert. I read of some pretty strange things going on in so-called Christian churches- things which God never intended. "Fallacies" is an interesting word.
You position yourself to be abused like some of Jesus followers and then assume that because of that abuse, you are in league with Jesus. People who position themselves for suffering (ie those who wore hair shirts) don't understand that abuse cometh of itself.
quote - ... the F&W statement of belief changes hourly at convention because I hear A LOT of contradiction and conflict at convention. Yes, the bible appears contradictory - the trick is to harmonize all statements. I can give a statement of belief 100 times, and say something different each time. But the generalities are largely covered above.
quote - You've managed to make the point raised in this forum a few months ago that "2x2s define 'grace' differently than other Christians": Did I answer this? bert -
... WHICH DEF BELOW DO YOU USE FOR GRACE?
1. elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action. Good
2. a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment. Good
3. favor or good will. Yes!
4. a manifestation of favor, esp. by a superior: It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school. Yes.
5. mercy; clemency; pardon: an act of grace. That's another valid one.
6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity. Don't know
7. an allowance of time after a debt or bill has become payable granted to the debtor before suit can be brought against him or her or a penalty applied: The life insurance premium is due today, but we have 31 days' grace before the policy lapses. Compare grace period. Maybe not
8. Theology. a. the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b. the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them. c. a virtue or excellence of divine origin: the Christian graces. d. Also called state of grace. the condition of being in God's favor or one of the elect. These are okay.
9. moral strength: the grace to perform a duty. Yes
10. a short prayer before or after a meal, in which a blessing is asked and thanks are given. Yes, I use this sense often
11. (usually initial capital letter) a formal title used in addressing or mentioning a duke, duchess, or archbishop, and formerly also a sovereign (usually prec. by your, his, etc.). I would use it like this if I met such people. We must not "despise dignities"
12. Graces, Classical Mythology. the goddesses of beauty, daughters of Zeus and Eurynome, worshiped in Greece as the Charities and in Rome as the Gratiae. Probably not.
13. Music. grace note. –verb (used with object) 14. to lend or add grace to; adorn: Many fine paintings graced the rooms of the house. Grace notes are nice.
15. to favor or honor: to grace an occasion with one's presence. —Idioms16. fall from grace, a. Theology. to relapse into sin or disfavor. b. to lose favor; be discredited: He fell from grace when the boss found out he had lied. These are fine too
17. have the grace to, to be so kind as to: Would you have the grace to help, please? Yes
18. in someone's good (or bad) graces, regarded with favor (or disfavor) by someone: It is a wonder that I have managed to stay in her good graces this long. Yes
19. with bad grace, reluctantly; grudgingly: He apologized, but did so with bad grace. Also, with a bad grace. Fine with me.
20. with good grace, willingly; ungrudgingly: She took on the extra work with good grace. That's nice
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Post by whatever on Feb 19, 2007 10:25:48 GMT -5
Hi Las, you can call us a sect, call us a cult, call us what you like - I think we can live with it. People back then had to live with name calling and labels. As for statement of belief - you heard them every time you attended a convention, gospel service and meeting? To whit, that Jesus is the Son of God, who has redeemed us with His own blood, and offers us the grace to separate ourselves, and follow Him, so that we may be like him and share with Him in eternity. Put it in writing and get the workers to sign it (all of them). Until then, your words here are EMPTY!
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Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 19, 2007 10:45:38 GMT -5
quote - Put it in writing and get the workers to sign it (all of them). Until then, your words here are EMPTY!
Spoken like a First Century Jewish lawyer!
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Post by the truth is on Feb 19, 2007 10:50:05 GMT -5
I want a statement of doctrine and a statement of belief from the 2x2 organization...I want something on paper to hold organization accountable to Why not ? Here is the deal, the bible is the word of God, the statement of belief . Anything above and beyond is essentially, putting an official meaning to that which we can read and discern from the bible. Will there be differences of interpretations? (or whatever else might occur) People keep saying that it can never work without a 'statement of beliefs' that is written up to assist the group, yet it continues to work well, in the truth, -------> except for those that want ''statements of beliefs'' --------> guess they can write their own, or join a group that writes one for them, ISN't that ok?
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Post by sounds like on Feb 19, 2007 11:27:42 GMT -5
sounds like you're afraid to put your actual beliefs in writing since you know they are unBiblical.
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Post by Leanert on Feb 19, 2007 11:28:39 GMT -5
Why is it that the people who most want a "statement" of doctrine, are those who are not members?
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whole bible is truth
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Post by whole bible is truth on Feb 19, 2007 11:33:54 GMT -5
sounds like you're afraid to put your actual beliefs in writing since you know they are unBiblical. Umm, what part of the bible, do you want me to avoid? The bible is truth, the rock, it needs to be whole or it is broken up. Have you seen any other groups ---> that use the whole bible for a statement of belief.
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Post by good question on Feb 19, 2007 11:38:07 GMT -5
Why is it that the people who most want a "statement" of doctrine, are those who are not members? ;D, ya, and usually they want it after they leave....
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answering your questions
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Post by answering your questions on Feb 19, 2007 11:38:58 GMT -5
Umm, what part of the bible, do you want me to avoid? Nobody said anything about avoiding any parts of the Bible. All I'm saying is that you're probably afraid to put your actual beliefs in writing since you know they are unbiblical. The bible is truth, the rock, it needs to be whole or it is broken up. I didn't say otherwise. I did say that you are probably afraid to put your actual beliefs in writing since you know they are unbiblical. Have you seen any other groups ---> that use the whole bible for a statement of belief. I haven't seen any groups, including 2x2s, that use the whole Bible as a statement of belief. I include the 2x2s in that since they don't have a statement of belief.
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Post by therefore on Feb 19, 2007 11:40:04 GMT -5
So.... why are you afraid to write down your actual beliefs? Why are you so argumentative about doing this? What are you afraid of?
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statement of belief
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Post by statement of belief on Feb 19, 2007 12:01:52 GMT -5
So.... why are you afraid to write down your actual beliefs? Why are you so argumentative about doing this? What are you afraid of? The bible is the statement of belief.Whole, not part or broken up.Why are you afraid of accepting this? By the way, I am not arguing with you.
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Post by cop out on Feb 19, 2007 12:28:56 GMT -5
So why can't you write down what you believe? Are you afraid?
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Post by whole bible truths on Feb 19, 2007 13:25:51 GMT -5
So why can't you write down what you believe? Are you afraid? Hmmm, I have stated twice before, it is the bible. Obviously, you are baiting me to shorten or add to that completeness, sorry I am not as gullible as you are my friend. Sorry that you feel that the whole bible is too long for your tastes. It takes awhile to read it, but it is a worthwhile read. Are you afraid you do not measure up to the whole bible teachings and doctrines, and want everyone else to cow to your ''fear'' some tactics. Whatever.....
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Post by ali on Feb 19, 2007 14:09:53 GMT -5
Billy Graham need not worry that all men are speaking well of him...I know for sure that not all do. Also, I have not seen in person any persecution of the F&W I have known. One person I know thought they were a bit fanatical about religion, but that's it. Only on the internet have I seen anything negative at all towards them.
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Post by really on Feb 19, 2007 14:27:51 GMT -5
Hmmm, I have stated twice before, it is the bible. That would make sense, if you didn't believe things that are not in the Bible. But since you are afraid to explore your beliefs, then you'll never know. Obviously, you are baiting me to shorten or add to that completeness, sorry I am not as gullible as you are my friend. Not sure of the relevance here, but you are obviously still afraid to examine your beliefs. Sorry that you feel that the whole bible is too long for your tastes. I never said that. All I said is that you are afraid to examine your beliefs. It takes awhile to read it, but it is a worthwhile read. Yes it is, and you are still afraid to examine your beliefs. Are you afraid you do not measure up to the whole bible teachings and doctrines, and want everyone else to cow to your ''fear'' some tactics. Whatever..... So, based on this, you decide not to examine your own beliefs. How sad.
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Statement of beliefs
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Post by Statement of beliefs on Feb 19, 2007 15:00:24 GMT -5
Hmmm, I have stated twice before, it is the bible.
Whether you know it or not, this is not helpful. Why? Because the F&Ws are all over the map on most of the basic, core beliefs of Christianity. For example:
Christ's deity. Some workers belive that Jesus was God, most don't. So which is it?
Salvation by grace. Some workers understand this doctrine, some believe it is a simple license to sin. So which is it?
Exclusivity. Most workers believe that the F&Ws are the only, true body of Christ, some believe that the body of Christ includes believers of other faiths. So which is it?
The fall of man. Some workers understand the fall of mankind and that we are born in sin, some believe that we are born without sin and that we become aware of sin at the "age of accountability. So which is it?
The trinity. Some workers believe in the triune God, most don't. So which is it?
Shall I continue? These are the exact types of doctrinal issues that the workers need to bring clarity to, the reason a belief statement is extremely helpful, and the reason one will not be coming forthwith.
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Post by eh on Feb 19, 2007 15:08:50 GMT -5
Why do the workers need to bring clarity to this issue?
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Post by hans on Feb 19, 2007 15:10:08 GMT -5
someone said >>So, based on this, you decide not to examine your own beliefs. How sad. >>
Why is this sad?
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Post by the reality on Feb 19, 2007 15:10:49 GMT -5
Why do the workers need to bring clarity to this issue? spin spin spin
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Post by 79er on Feb 19, 2007 15:11:14 GMT -5
What is the purpose to write down the beleifs?
Is it to make longer the argument about what the beleif is?
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Post by Opus on Feb 19, 2007 15:12:09 GMT -5
The 2x2s don't actually have any doctrine
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Post by gunner on Feb 19, 2007 15:18:00 GMT -5
what does a big gun have to do with it?
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what they dont know
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Post by what they dont know on Feb 19, 2007 15:18:47 GMT -5
when a 2x2 says "the bible is our doctrine" that means they really don't know what they believe.
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Post by fourd on Feb 19, 2007 15:26:34 GMT -5
They don't have any doctrine to know about. Whats to write?
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Statement of beliefs
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Post by Statement of beliefs on Feb 19, 2007 15:29:25 GMT -5
when a 2x2 says "the bible is our doctrine" that means they really don't know what they believe.
At the risk of painting with too broad a brush, I would agree with this. I find it incredible that someone would respond to my post with "Why do the workers need to bring clarity to this issue?" This reminds me of a conversation I had with an elder after we left....he said he didn't understand ANY of the issues we had addressed in our exit letter, but it didn't matter because no one cares what you believe - JUST COME TO MEETINGS. I was dumbfounded....that's also why I tend to agree with your statement.
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Post by Bert unlogged on Feb 19, 2007 15:39:08 GMT -5
quote - ... the F&Ws are all over the map on most of the basic, core beliefs of Christianity. I disagree. We are quite clear about fundamentals - it is the nature of these fundamentals themselves which often appear at odds.quote - Christ's deity. Some workers belive that Jesus was God, most don't. So which is it? Both. Jesus said he and the Father are one - so you can take it that Jesus is the Son, and that Jesus is the Father also.quote - Salvation by grace. Some workers understand this doctrine, some believe it is a simple license to sin. So which is it? Both. Grace is given to those who respond, and by grace we can do God's will. Some doctrines about grace appear to be licentious to us, just as they were to the disciples.quote - Exclusivity. Most workers believe that the F&Ws are the only, true body of Christ, some believe that the body of Christ includes believers of other faiths. So which is it? Both. We believe we are in no position to judge other people. But we also believe God has shown us a way to serve Him. Some never have opportunity to know Christ in this life.quote - The fall of man. Some workers understand the fall of mankind and that we are born in sin, some believe that we are born without sin and that we become aware of sin at the "age of accountability. So which is it? Both. We are born in sin, and this is manifest at an early stage.quote - The trinity. Some workers believe in the triune God, most don't. So which is it? Both. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost? There are other triunes which John spoke of - do you believe in these also?quote - Shall I continue? Yes! quote - These are the exact types of doctrinal issues that the workers need to bring clarity to, the reason a belief statement is extremely helpful, and the reason one will not be coming forthwith. Some things are presented as mystery. Jesus himself wrote down no doctrinal statement - he presented the Father through Himself. And isn't that wonderful? The mystery of the Kingdom is seen, through a glass darkly, in Christ.
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Post by To Bert on Feb 19, 2007 16:37:54 GMT -5
****with jaw dropped****
You have taken the concept of "relativity" to a new place.
So when I say one worker accepts the deity of Christ and another denies it, you say they are both right?
When I say that one worker believes that grace saves us and another worker says grace is a license to sin, you say they are both right?
When I say that one worker believes we are born in sin and another says that we're born without sin, you say they are both right?
Just wonderin'.
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Post by OzE on Feb 19, 2007 17:24:37 GMT -5
Bert,
quote - Christ's deity. Some workers belive that Jesus was God, most don't. So which is it? Both. Jesus said he and the Father are one - so you can take it that Jesus is the Son, and that Jesus is the Father also.
Your statement shows that as yet you don't understand the true Triune God. I didn't either when I was professing. The reason for that was that I had unknowingly believed a false gospel that had no power to save. I was as lost as lost can be and as such didn't know the true God.
Until God brought me to a place of total reliance on Him and His word which he opened to me in an instant through the Gospel I was totally ignorant. Only when one is saved through the true Gospel one realises one was never saved while believing a false gospel. A gospel which contains any error cannot save, a god whom one attributes untruths about is a god of this world and a faith one has placed in a salvation which has to be gained is believing a lie. Human reasoning likes to take some glory for itself and any way which appeals to that is not of God. God deserves ALL the glory for salvation and to attribute any part of that to human effort in getting saved and staying saved is NOT God's Gospel.
One thing that stands out to me when I read your posts is that you seem to not grasp the difference between being born again and living the Christian life. Being born again is ALL God's work without our participation. Living the Christian life is ALL God's work with our participation but it's NOT our participation that keeps us saved it's God's faithfulness and preservation that does that.
Having the foundational Gospel in error precipitates all following conclusions and beliefs about God to be wrong.
As many found in the Bible believing God's Gospel is hard because it makes us as nothing so that Christ becomes our everything.
And this is the Gospel:
The true Gospel of God’s grace gives all the glory for salvation to God, leaving no room for a man to boast in anything he has done in order to get saved or stay saved. It is not a complicated message. It is not a message that is difficult to understand. It is a plain and simple message. Man is dead in sin and cannot come to God in and of himself (Matt. 19:25,26; Rom. 3:10,11; 5:12; Eph. 2:1,12); no man by nature understands God and therefore does not, and cannot, seek the true God; without God man has no hope.
This teaching is the launching pad for grace. It introduces people to grace and the fact that no part of salvation is conditioned on anything else but grace. Salvation is not by the will of man but the will of God according to His grace and mercy. God chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world, not based on anything they did or would do, but upon His will, wisdom and grace and according to His purpose (Eph. 1:3-6; 2 Tim. 1:9); salvation is according to the election of grace and not by the works of man (Rom. 11:5; Gal. 2:16); Christ Jesus was sent to the earth to establish a perfect righteousness by obeying the law, and dying, as the Representative of, and a Substitute for, those people God had chosen and entrusted to Christ’s care (Jn. 10:27,28; 17:2,3; Eph. 5:25); their sins had to be atoned for and would be charged to Him and His Righteousness to them, thus making them wholly acceptable unto God (2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 5:2); these people would all be taught of God and made willing in the day of His power to love and believe the same Gospel—GOD’S ONLY GOSPEL—and be saved, for this is the will of God and none of them will ever perish (Jn. 10:26-29).
This, in a nutshell, is the Gospel of God. Of course, there are several truths about Christ, such as His virgin birth and His resurrection and the fact that the Triune God is the Creator of all things, that must also be believed in. Belief in any other gospel will not, cannot and never has saved anybody.
Which part of the Gospel do you find you are not in agreement with?
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