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Post by James Durston on Feb 17, 2007 6:44:32 GMT -5
Well the first thing Geoff and maybe you do remember right, but whatever the case this is inaccurate. There is only one unpardonable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Personally I rant and rave about the Holy Spirit because He is such a part of my life. ..No I’m sorry my Friend you misunderstand. I have another question for you Geoff? Have you been baptised in the Holy Spirit?...You have to search your heart as to wether you want truth or the deception you are in. I have tod you before and I will say it again you are trying to worm your way out of it and to justify yourself....this is not about you or me this is about Jesus Christ and what His Word says!
Ok Bert, well the first thing is that the Friends & Workers Have transgressed…Fact, just read the Bible….if one does not understand there are many recognised scholars that will tell you this. (Not Workers---They do NOT understand the Word of God). Its not about being ‘closer to this command’….it either is or it is not. The other scripture is a somewhat slightly different topic to talk about. The Workers & Friends have and do build their faith on Matthew 10…I don’t mind going through these verses with you just for the fun of it…but maybe a little latter if that’s ok with you
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Post by James Durston on Feb 17, 2007 6:56:28 GMT -5
- in fact, a commandment that undoes the commandment in Matthew chapter 10. Luke 22 verse 35: 'And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one'. Is the Lord Jesus contradicting Himself? Of course He's not!
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Post by Observing on Feb 17, 2007 8:41:04 GMT -5
James Durston Ok…so far we have three foundational doctrines of the Friends & Workers that constitutes a cult. In order they are:
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved.
Christianity says the exact same thing. Are you saying that Christianity is "utterly false and Biblically unfounded?"
If this point makes the F&W a cult it would also make Christianity, Islam, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Oneness Pentecostal denominations cults as well.
James Durston POINT 2: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, that you cannot fellowship in churchy looking buildings.
This seems to be a moot point. As I have pointed out, the F&W have had fellowship in churchy looking buildings as well in churches. I think the statement is that God does not dwell in churches so there is no need to have a special building to meet in so God will be there.
However I wonder if this stipulation would make the Orthodox Church a cult shine they believe that God dwells in the visible church which is the body of Christ, a communion of believers, headed by a bishop and united by the Eucharist. Not exactly a building though.
Matthew 23:21 has Jesus referring to God being in the temple. 1 Kings 8:13 - I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.
It seems that Solomon though God needed a place to stay.
Don't think stating that God does not dwell in church buildings makes a group a cult.
James Durston POINT 3: The Matthew 10 foundation is a transgression and is completely misunderstood and totally misrepresented.
Believing that people should be sent out in pairs to spread the word does not seem to fly in the face of any theology. It may be that you do not support the meaning the F&Ws are using but would this make them a cult?
What definition of 'cult' would make this so?
James Durston Just one of these POINTS above warrants us to leave this life of deception. Do not forget we are talking about a group of people who pervert Gods Word and justify themselves. This ‘religion’ is an abomination to God! There are three POINTS so far. The evidence is utterly overwhelming…no doubt what so ever! On any one of the above we can rest our case.
As has been pointed out, if you look at just your first point you must also include Christianity. You cannot state that the friends and workers are wrong to claim they are exclusive but not examine Christianity. Or other denominations. The Oneness Pentecostal denomination claim a believer must not only believe in their form of modalism, but must also have been baptized while the minister said, 'I baptize you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ' and must have spoken in tongues in order to have any hope of salvation.
James Durston But there is more to come. We have to talk about the perversions of the Friends & Workers and also of the X-Friends. We have to ask why are the Friends & Workers so easy to blackmail.
This will be an interesting discussion. Before you get started, will you be using the term 'blackmail' in the following sense:
Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.
or will you be providing us with your definition?
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Post by Geoff on Feb 17, 2007 11:41:29 GMT -5
James. I note that you've asked me another direct question. I also note that despite my asking you one question many times, you have either failed to, or refused to answer.
Do you really expect me to answer yours under this non reciprocal agreement?
You have several times accused me of being deceived, or of being under deception. But you have failed (so far) to point out in what way, or about what topic I am deceived.
If you GENUINELY cared about this deception that you think I'm under, you would explain it, describe it, in order to help be get a clear picture of it, and in order to assist my becoming un-deceived. So about what (exactly) James do you say I'm deceived. I really want to learn this.
The Holy Spirit is a central part of my life too James, and thats one of the reasons I'm concerned about the possibility of your Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. As you rightly said, its the one un-pardonable sin. "Studylearning"'s post was about how denying the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men is tantamount to (or maybe is actually) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I, personally, and not certain that it is. (I just don't know), but if there's a suggestion that it might be, it seems something to avoid. I do think that its a sin. You might now accuse me and say that many members of our fellowship do this. You might be quite right, but pointing to the sin of another doesn't excuse the sin in oneself.
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Post by the reality on Feb 17, 2007 12:08:48 GMT -5
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. [/color] Christianity says the exact same thing. Are you saying that Christianity is "utterly false and Biblically unfounded?"[/quote] Hey, nice job of sidestepping the point. You probably make the workers proud.
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Post by Observing on Feb 17, 2007 15:46:35 GMT -5
POINT 1: It is utterly false and Biblically unfounded to say, you have to be in their way to be saved. [/color] Christianity says the exact same thing. Are you saying that Christianity is "utterly false and Biblically unfounded?"[/quote] Hey, nice job of sidestepping the point. You probably make the workers proud.[/quote] I think, my friend, it is you that have sidestepped. The F&Ws do claim that you must be in their way to be saved. Who is sidestepping? But does that fact make them a cult? If you believe that then you must also believe that other groups that believe they have a lock on salvation must also be a cult. That would include the Roman Catholic Church, the Oneness Pentecostal theology, and Christianity itself. Or are you of the opinion that non-Christians can be saved? I doubt James would go along with that. As for the rest of your comment: it is an argumentum ad hominem and just points out the paucity of your rebuttal.
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Post by Jame Durston on Feb 17, 2007 17:27:08 GMT -5
Of course Geoff is sidestepping. He has been doing this from word go. This in it self is deception where he can not address the real POINTS. Geoff is hell bent on getting agreeable answers for his own needs. I am trying to explain to people that it is not about us but about Jesus Christ and what He says!
“The F&Ws do claim that you must be in their way to be saved”.... I have not seen one absolute admission by a professing Friend that they admit this is an absolute foundational truth of the Friends & Workers
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Post by Ufda on Feb 17, 2007 18:11:55 GMT -5
Now James, because JACK CARROLL said so, it is so!
The New Testament Ministry Jack Carroll Most of you have been asked questions during the past year about your preachers, and a number have found it difficult to give a satisfactory answer to these questions, some have conveyed the impression there are things about the ministry they are not prepared to tell others, and possibly have left the impression in the minds of their friends that this is some kind of a secret or semi-secret fellowship that they have been brought into. I would like to dispel once and for all any such impression, so that you will feel absolutely free to answer all questions your friends may ask about God's people or about His Servants, for we hold nothing in secret, that we are not prepared to teach openly. We hold nothing that we are not prepared to tell you from this platform, and are quite indifferent as to whether or not what we say is listened to by those who are not yet numbered amongst us, for everything that we hold and everything that we teach is to be found within the pages of GOD'S own WORDS, which are open to all. I want to talk to you very frankly and freely. To make you feel we are anxious to take you into our fullest confidence, and tell you all that is in our hearts; for as I grow older I recognize more clearly and fully that our fellowship with, and confidence in each other, depends to a very large extent upon us being absolutely frank and open, so that there is no room for any misunderstanding.. I propose to answer four questions that have been asked at different times during the year. They may not have occurred to you or they may have, so I am going to anticipate this possibility, and endeavor to answer these four questions this afternoon. They are perhaps more practical than spiritual, but is important that we be clear in our minds with regard to each and all of them. I. What is the fundamental difference between the New Testament Ministry and all other kinds of ministry.? II. Why do New Testament Ministers travel so much? III. Why is it necessary for these New Testament Ministers who have gone to foreign countries to return again on furlough to their home countries? VI. Where does the money come from which enables the Workers to live, to travel to foreign countries, and to return again on furlough? You can see that these four questions are very practical, and I will try to answer all of them just as simply and clearly as I can. FIRST. What is the fundamental difference between the New Testament Ministry and all other kinds of ministry that we are familiar with? During the year some of you received a questionnaire dealing with the New Testament Ministry. A number sent in answers, many of which indicated that there were a good many things in connection with the Ministry that you were not exactly clear about. So that when questioned by your friends you were embarrassed and instead of clearing their minds and satisfying them, your answers tended rather toward irritating and causing them to feel, "I don't want to have anything to do with your Ministers or with the fellowship into which you have been brought.." The impressions given, to a very large extent, were that there were certain little secrets connected with the Ministry, that we wanted to keep to ourselves. There is nothing so irritating to the average man or woman, as to feel that they are being deliberately left out of a matter, and if they feel that there are things in connection with your religion which you are afraid to talk about, they don't want to have anything to do with it at all. What I wish to say is intended to encourage you to be absolutely open and frank in speaking to your friends and answering their questions, and to encourage you to do so more helpfully and more spiritually than in the past. The physical needs of the True Ministry and the false are exactly the same, True Ministers need food, clothing, shelter, and as a means of exchange they need money. False preachers need food, clothing, shelter, and money. When the question is asked, what is the difference between your Ministers and ours? The reply that is usually given is, their needs are the same, we admit, but the difference lies in how those needs are supplied. Your preachers preach for a salary, ours don't. Your preachers take collections, our don't, your preachers appeal for money, ours don't, Your preachers have homes of their own, ours don't. While these differences are true and help to distinguish the false from the true ministry, yet none of them, nor all of them together, give us the actual fundamental difference between the true and the false. When some of you are asked the question by your friends, "how then, do your preachers live?" the answer you give is, "Our preachers live by faith," while the answer is true, it needs a lot of explaining to some people or some of you say; the Lord takes care of our Ministers," Both answers are in a sense true, but they do not give any light to those who question you. You leave them just as much in the dark as they were before. Some have answered this question with, "I don't know," I heard of one of our brothers having a discussion with the preacher with whom he had perilously been in fellowship. He was telling him of the wrongness of taking up a collection, and having a salary and a home of his own, The preacher turned to his brother and said, "How then do your preachers live?" and this brother answered, "I really don't know." That wasn't exactly true, He did know, but he did not know exactly how to answer that question. I was discussing this subject last year before quite a company of people and asking questions dealing with the N T Ministry. Such as, How do N. T. Preachers Live. A brother sitting in front said, "I have been in the way for seven years, and I haven't found that out yet. I was back east a few weeks ago and was told there of a man who approached one of the Workers and asked him this question: "I would like to know just how the Workers get their clothes and money to travel with." That man had been professing for fifteen years. I have been glad to hear of people asking those questions, because it proves that the Workers every where are very slow to discuss this subject. They would rather leave people absolutely in the dark than to convey the impression that they were selfish in their motives or in their Ministry, or that by discussing these things, they wanted anything for themselves. The O T is very clear with regard to how in Old Testament days the Priests and Levites were cared for, and the N T is equally clear with regard to how God's Servant's are taken care of today, I want to emphasize in answering this first question that to me is the actual and fundamental difference between the New Testament Ministry and every other Ministry. JESUS taught that the laborer is worthy of his hire. That is often quoted to us, and Paul in I Corinthians 9:14 said, "The Lord has ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live by the Gospel." We make no secret of the fact, that as GOD'S Bond-servants and Handmaidens we "Live by the Gospel" and are justified in so doing, because we have fulfilled the conditions that Jesus laid down in the Gospel" No man is Justified in living "by the Gospel" apart from fulfilling these conditions. When your friends ask you the question "How do your preachers live?" The proper answer to give is, "Our preachers live, by the Gospel." "But", they say, "Our preachers do that also," And then very gently, and with grace, you should go on to explain to them that the reason why our preachers live "by the Gospel", and we love to make it possible for them to do so, is because they have fulfilled the conditions that Jesus laid down in the Gospels for the New Testament Ministry, and it is a pleasure to Minister to them, food, clothing, shelter and, as a means of exchange money, in His name. When you answer questions with regard to the New Testament Ministry, just answer simply, frankly, and without unnecessarily reflecting upon those whom your friends support, in nine cases out of ten, instead of irritating, you will have enlightened them and awakened in them a desire to hear a little of this for themselves. JESUS labored as a carpenter, and lived by the work of his hands as a carpenter for eighteen years, but for three and a half years he lived "By The Gospel" and got his bread as a preacher of the Gospel just as honorably as he did when he was a carpenter. Jesus did not live on charity. Those that Live on charity gave nothing in return; JESUS always gave more than he received. If he accepted hospitality from Matthew the Publican, from Simon the Pharisee, or from Lazaras the Brother of Mary and Martha, he always gave more than he received, and in this he left for us an example, that we should follow in His steps. We do not live on charity. If any of God's professed people came to us and offered us food, clothing, or shelter as an act of charity, we would refuse it, for we are not living on charity. But if they come to us in HIS Name, and as an expression of their love and interest in the furtherance of the Gospel, recognizing we have fulfilled the conditions that justify us in living by the Gospel. it is our duty to accept, knowing; that a cup of cold water given to one of the least of GOD'S Servants will in no wise loose its reward on that day. Only those who have fulfilled the conditions laid down by JESUS for the New Testament Ministry are justified in living by the Gospel. This is the fundamental difference between the ministers that we know of in the world. What, then, are the conditions that Jesus laid down in N .T.? He expects those to fulfil who start to have a part in this Ministry? I would like to think we are very clear on what it costs our Brothers and sisters to go forth into GOD'S great harvest field. There are no people on earth that demand more sacrifice on the part of those who Minister to them than the people of GOD, and this is Scriptural and in line with GOD'S plan. An article appeared in an issue of "Good Housekeeping" written by a professor of Harvard University. It rather surprised me to find that this man of the world recognized that a large portion of the teaching of JESUS was applicable only to the Ministry, and that it was very difficult to face, and because of this difficulty, it had been more or less explained away, or watered down until it became entirely meaningless. We do not wish to hide from anyone what Jesus taught with regard to the initial step into the Ministry. Not all are called to enter into Ministry, not all are called to become Bondservants and Handmaids, of the Lord, but none can have a part in the Ministry without fulfilling it's conditions, that would justify them afterwards. And which alone could justify them in living "By The Gospel" for any man who claims to be living by the Gospel, without fulfilling the conditions laid down by JESUS in the Gospel, is receiving money under false pretenses, and will one day come under the Just condemnation of GOD. What are these conditions! I will present them in the form of questions, the first is, are you prepared to sell all? Are you prepared to make yourself poor? Are you willing, as the very first condition to have fellowship with Jesus in his poverty? In connection with the N T Ministry there is a very real equality. No one of us makes a grater sacrifice than the other. We make equality the same sacrifice. We each sacrifice all and it would be a very dishonorable thing for any of us in after years to suggest that our sacrifice was greater than the sacrifice of the brother or sister laboring by our side in matter of fulfilling the very first condition, there is an absolute equality amongst us, so that we are all placed on the same level. In order to illustrate this Point, a few years ago three, young men who had volunteered for the Work came in to see us, all three of them were young, and I well remember the scene---the three boys sitting in a row and we questioning them with regard to their purpose. We asked them if they were wil1ing to fulfill this very first condition. To sell everything, making themselves poor, and to have fellowship with Jesus in HIS poverty, of course they all said yes. The first boy said he didn't have Very much to sell, we asked, "what is it", "An old model T Ford," We asked him what it was worth and he said about $38.00. We asked the next boy how he stood, and he said he said he had about $150.00 in the bank. We told him it had to be so scattered that it could never be gathered up again. The third boy said, "All I have is one hog." He was the youngest of the three, he used all he earned to help his mother at home. Now she felt able to get along without him and was delighted that her boy was going forth to preach the Gospel. It didn't matter whether that first boy had a Pierce-Arrow or a Model T, whether the second had $150,000 or 150.00 in the bank, it had all to be scattered so that they would have nothing to go back to. The first condition laid down by Jesus had to be faced and fulfilled by all. The second condition has to do with being homeless. Are you willing to be homeless for life? That is a very serious proposition. Some of us have been preaching for a good many years, and are still homeless. On one occasion a man came to Jesus and said, "I will follow Thee." He volunteered for the Work, and Jesus looking at him just applied this second condition He said, "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head", We never hear of that young man going out into the Work. To be homeless for Jesus sake is a very real thing, it is just as well for those who are thinking about filling a place in the Ministry, to recognize this, for six months after you have left you may suffer from a very common disease--Homesickness. There are those here who have been homesick during the past year, but Jesus insisted that those who were to have part with him in the Ministry must be prepared to be as homeless as he was, and to be able to say as a minister of the Gospel, "Foxes have holes and birds have nests, but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." The third condition is, are you willing to put the preaching of the Gospel before the claims of your own flesh and blood, living or dead? Sometimes when I think upon this, it seems to me to be the most stern of all the conditions, Jesus put before candidates for the Ministry. When one man said to Jesus "Suffer me to go and bury my father," Jesus said, let the dead bury their dead." What he meant to say was that no man was fit to preach the Gospel if the claims or his own flesh and bleed, living or dead, were more important to him than bringing the message of Christ,to those who were dead in trespasses and sin. Another man said, "Lord, I'll go, but suffer me first to go home and say goodbye to my friends." and Jesus turned to him and said, "No Man having put-his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the Kingdom of Heaven." Instead of Jesus bribing men to enter the ministry, it would almost seem as though be was trying to prevent them. Instead of promising then a nice living, good prospects, and lots at time for reading and social fellowship with others, or encouraging them to believe that in the Ministry they would climb up in the social scale, he did the exact opposite. Instead of making it easy for them he made it hard, instead of making it a pleasant thing, He made it the very opposite. For he wanted to test the depth and sincerity or the purpose of those who expressed a wish to have a part in the Ministry. Do you appreciate that? The fourth question is? Are you willing to go forth without having any individual, or group of individuals, pledged to take care of you, and preach the Gospel without money and without price, where ever you have opportunity? If we knew that any one of us ever lifted a collection, or asked for money, we would immediately see to it that, that one would be excluded from our Fellowship as a preacher of the Gospel. We are glad know that throughout the whole world, God' servants have been able to go forth in HIS NAME and are Preaching the Gospel in many different lands, and making that Gospel as it were in N.T. day's, without money and without price. The men and women who are preaching the Gospel would scorn the very thought, would rather die in their tracks, than to leave it open for one to suggest that they were selfish or mercenary in their motives or in their ministry. The fifth question we would ask is in connection with that verse dealing with the corn of wheat. Are you willing to be as the corn of wheat which falls into the ground and dies? Are you willing to let death work so that life may be wrought in others? Are you willing to be dead to what is honorable and legitimate for others; The sixth question is, how far are you willing to go in Preaching the Gospel? It would be nice if we could remain in California for ever, where the sun is always shining but where, JESUS called men into his harvest field he would accept none who would set any limits to their Ministry. Whenever we become settled or rooted in any field, sooner or later death begins to work. There was no such thing as a fixed or settled Ministry in N.T. day's. None of us are in any one State for life. There must be a willingness to accept and obey the commission Jesus gave to his disciples. "Go ye forth into all the world, teaching all nations and baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" There is another question we sometimes ask those who are desirous of going forth: Are you willing to go with anyone of your brethren? Those who have the responsibility for arranging this matter look upon it very seriously, and do not lightly the arranging year after year of those who are to labor together. When the Lord sent out the first twelve he did not do it lightly, and when he sent the seventy out later an did not do that lightly. Then others later went out in His Name this was not looked upon as a light matter, and we would like to say that it is the custom of those who have this responsibility to seek for the wisdom of God and His guidance, so that during the year, the labors of God's Servants may "Turn out unto the furtherance of the Gospel." Only those who have fulfilled the conditions which I have enumerated are justified in living by the Gospel. That those who have fulfilled these conditions and are preaching the Gospel earn their bread just as honorably as though they worked with their hands at their different trades, for no Servant of God lives on charity. They are worthy of their hire, and it comes to them in God's appointed way. We are not ashamed of the fact that Jesus lived by the Gospel. We, are not ashamed to teach others to live by the Gospel, and we are not ashamed to proclaim to the whole world that we live by the Gospel, and the reason we are justified in living by the Gospel is that we have fulfilled the conditions laid down in the Gospel. Some of us were having a little discussion some months ago, and the question was raised by one of the Workers, how much should we tell in Gospel meeting, about how we live as Ministers of the Gospel? Someone answered "we shouldn't tell anything." I took the opposite view and said. "I am prepared to tell them everything." If a man asked me a question regarding the Ministry and desires an answer, I am prepared to give him that answer and to prove from the Scriptures that my answer is according to the teachings and example of Jesus. The second question I would like to answer is "Why do the New Testament Misters travel so much?" They seem to be always going somewhere. When Jesus was preaching in a certain city in Galilee, the people of that city wanted Him to settle down and remain in their midst, but he said, "I must preach the Kingdom of God to other cities also. For therefore am I sent." The reason the Workers travel so much is because they could not be New Testament Ministers if they did not. For Jesus did say, stay and preach, but "Go and Preach." His commission was, "go ye into all the world and teach all Nations" The New Testament Ministry is essentially a traveling Ministry. There are those in the Church who assume a little responsibility, whom we speak or as Elders, men who live in their own lames and are settled there. But the Ministry I'm speaking about is a traveling Ministry, and it could not be the New Testament Ministry apart from this. The third question I would like to answer is: Why is it necessary for Workers who have gone to foreign fields to return home again, after a period of years abroad? I heard of a man sometime ago who after a meeting wrote to a friend and said. "I am very glad Jack explained that to us this afternoon, for I used to look upon it as an unnecessary expense for Workers to go abroad and spend several years there and then come back again." He was looking upon it from purely a viewpoint of dollars and cents, It is just as necessary to return to us as it was for them to go forth from us. No Worker now in the regions beyond was sent there by any other Worker, or by any group of Workers. There is no group of Workers that I know of that would assume that responsibility. Those who are in different fields in China, Japan, India, all over Europe, and all over Africa are not there because any of us sent them. They are there because God moved upon their own hearts and caused them to lift up their eyes to behold the fields white unto harvest. He awakened an interest in their hearts in people in other lands, and moved upon them that they expressed the desire of their hearts to launch out a little further into the deep, and if we had any part in their going it was in deciding their qualifications. Many have volunteered to go whose health would not justify them in going. Many have expressed a wish to go whom we would never think of encouraging to go. And those who have gone are there by their own choice. They can have the glad assurance that God sent them there, and when the devil discourages them they can fall back on this thought. I am not here because any individual sent me, but I am here because God moved upon my heart, and by my own choice I am seeking to carry out His work in this land. We would not like any Servant of God to lay his bands upon any Brother and presume to say, "You go here, or you go there". It would indicate we were out of God's plan, if we presume so to do. Why is it just as necessary for Workers to come back to us as it is for them to go from us? First, for the sake of their health. That in itself ought to be sufficient. Some live in conditions which are not conductive towards health or long levity, and it would be a cruel thing if we were satisfied to leave them there to live or die. So for the sake of their health it is necessary for then to come back for a change. The second reason is that most of them have Fathers and Mothers whom they love, and who would like to see them and whom they would like to see. This is not a human fellowship it is a Spiritual fellowship, but it has its human side as well as its Spiritual side. There are Fathers and Mothers who have boys and girls in foreign lands laying down their lives for Christ's sake and those children are interested in their parents and look forward, after spending a reasonable time in foreign lands to return home again to tell the story of their labors to those whom they love. The third reason is that all of them are tried and tested before they left. They have friends in the Gospel for whom they are still responsible, whom they would like to see and who would like to see them.
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Post by Ufda on Feb 17, 2007 18:12:27 GMT -5
The fourth reason and the most important is that it is necessary for the Unity of the people God. This fellowship that is ours is more wonderful to me the older I get. Here we are a people absolutely unorganized, and a puzzle to the world. They are prepared to leave us alone and we are content to be left alone, we are satisfied to be as the mustard tree, a shrub in a mans back yard, to which no one would give very much attention. God's method of uniting and holding his people together in one, is by the coming and going of his Bondservants and Handmaidens. The constant coming and going, their traveling from one State to another, from country to country, and from continent to continent, contributes to the fulfillment of the purpose of God in uniting His people into one family, and fold. One fellowship, one Kingdom, so that we can truly say we are one in Christ. Our brethren in S. America have asked me to come down and visit them. I don't think it is going to be a pleasure trip by any means, and I don't intend to make it a pleasure trip. My purpose in going is to help link our brethren in South America to their brethren in N. America. To endeavor to add a little to the foundation that has been laid by others, and to build upon that foundation not wood, hay and stubble, but gold, silver and precious stones. Those who have read the book of Acts will have noticed how little groups of God's servants were continually on the move, going from one country to another, from Europe to Asia. It seems me that this was God's simple and wonderfully wise way of uniting his people, so that regardless of their race or nationality, color or language, they would be one people and that in a measure at least, there would be answered prayers of Jesus on that last night of his life, that "They might all be one in Him. So that when we welcome some of our brothers from China, Japan, and other countries their coming will awaken in us a new interest in those countries. Those who have gone to other countries and returned to us will bring Sweden, Norway, Denmark, a little nearer, and make us feel that we are indeed one family and one Fellowship, striving together for the extension of the same Kingdom. The fourth question I would like to answer is: Where does the money come from that enables the Workers to live, to travel to foreign countries and to return? When you talk about the Workers coming and going, your friends tell you all this takes money, and it does. When they ask you where the money comes from, you say. "Oh the Lord Provides it," Why not tell them plainly where it comes from? It comes from you. Money as a means of exchange is used to enable Workers to live, to travel, to foreign countries, and it comes as the spontaneous, unsolicited, free will offering of God's Children. You don't minister in this way because you have to or are solicited to. If you don't love to do it, then the Lord doesn't accept it, and we wouldn't if we know. When Workers go forth they get rid of everything they possess. Money thus surrendered and scattered, so that it was never to be theirs again. It is gone for good, and is used to minister to our brethren abroad,or to bring them back from the foreign field, or to send others there. Occasionally God's Children who set their affairs in order, and whom the lord takes home, remember individual Workers with gifts of money, or sometimes they leave them a piece of money, or sometimes they leave them a piece of property, and is sold and the money it brings is scattered in the same way, so that no one can ever enrich an individual Worker. When you are asked then, by your friends, "What is the fundamental difference between our Ministry and any other? Why do Workers travel so much? Why is it necessary for those who go from us, to return again? Where does the money come from? I hope you will feel free to be frank and candid with them. So that you won't convey the impression that this is some kind of a secret society you are in. We teach nothing in private that we are not prepared to proclaim from the housetops to all men, for everything we do, can be read of all men in the pages of GOD'S own Book.
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Post by the reality on Feb 17, 2007 18:52:15 GMT -5
Nitro........but they have used my name. Why does not administration do something about this? I am not happy to let admin ignore this as I have already told them. They dont seem to care but I do intend to do something about it. At the moment this is not a good place to discuss---poor forum! I dont recomend it. Lousy admin!! James. Take a hint. Register an account.
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Post by Observing on Feb 17, 2007 20:31:33 GMT -5
Jame Durston: Of course Geoff is sidestepping. He has been doing this from word go. This in it self is deception where he can not address the real POINTS. Geoff is hell bent on getting agreeable answers for his own needs. I am trying to explain to people that it is not about us but about Jesus Christ and what He says!
The post was not directed at Geoff.
Geoff, from what I have seen, is looking for the same thing I have been looking for, James - answers from you regarding our questions.
Jame Durston: “The F&Ws do claim that you must be in their way to be saved”.... I have not seen one absolute admission by a professing Friend that they admit this is an absolute foundational truth of the Friends & Workers
You have failed to read what people wrote. Many groups claim to be the only way to salvation. The F&W believe they have it. The Catholics believe they have it. Christians believe they have it. Oneness Pentecostals have a whole system for their followers.
The question is - does that make them a cult? If so, is Christianity a cult for the same reason?
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 0:40:28 GMT -5
The deceived stand out a mile and we have another one on the list.
You see the Friends and Workers worship man. ALL Friends & Workers are guilty of idolitary which is a despicable sin. In a nutshell this is what the cult is. A group of people idolising Workers.
It's about what Jesus Christ says not Jack Carrol who was a evil man!
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 0:44:57 GMT -5
I'll be up front with you guys. Talking with you when it comes down to the nuts and bolts is like taking candy of a baby. You guys dont know or understand the scripture let alone know Jesus Christ.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 0:46:40 GMT -5
- in fact, a commandment that undoes the commandment in Matthew chapter 10. Luke 22 verse 35: 'And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one'. Is the Lord Jesus contradicting Himself? Of course He's not!
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star
Junior Member
Posts: 121
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Post by star on Feb 18, 2007 1:07:28 GMT -5
I'll be up front with you guys. Talking with you when it comes down to the nuts and bolts is like taking candy of a baby. You guys dont know or understand the scripture let alone know Jesus Christ. That is difficult for us to judge since you will not answer the questions posed. I'll be up front with you - after reading this thread it seems you are talking about a lot of things for which you either can not or will not provide biblical support. Your logic is seriously flawed and you refuse to listen to what the other posters have said. You are not interested in a discussion but rather you want a soapbox surrounded by a group of people who will parrot back to you the things you want to hear.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 1:12:23 GMT -5
“So the gospel that they preached is not the same gospel, indeed the only way you can preach this gospel is if the Lord Jesus Christ was with us in bodily form, right back at this particular time in Jewish history.”
- in fact, a commandment that undoes the commandment in Matthew chapter 10. Luke 22 verse 35: 'And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one'. Is the Lord Jesus contradicting Himself? Of course He's not!
If you look at Roman Catholicism you will see that men have turned the word of God into the commandments of men, to observe the traditions of men they have made the word of God null and void. This is exactly what we find here. They're carrying over a temporary command, and they actually enforce it upon the friends and themselves. All you have to do, if you look to the historical book in the Bible of the church of Jesus Christ, the Acts of the Apostles, you see there that these injunctions were not obeyed by the apostles and by the early evangelists and prophets.
The Acts of the Apostles is full of different accounts of men going alone - they also go in twos, yes, but they go in threes, they go in fours, they even go in sevens and eights! Because the Lord Jesus' last commission that He gave in Matthew 28 to 'Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit', teaching all nations what He had taught the disciples: there are no rules, injunctions or principles laid down as to the number of people that ought to go in evangelization of this world.
So I think you can see that the very basis of the Friends is a dubious one, in fact it is a false one in the interpretation of the Scriptures that they use as their proof texts. As I said earlier, there is no statement of faith, and that's why it's so difficult: you can't go down and say 'They believe in number one category of faith, and declaration of doctrine, this, that or the other' - it's not clear. In fact, they will even claim that they don't have doctrine - and that's staggering to me. But nevertheless, you can observe from their practices and from what they preach certain obvious trends of beliefs that you can clearly see are doctrines in this faith.
They also claim, as I have said, that their preachers are the only true witnesses. Later on this 'Living Witness Doctrine' came, that told that it was only through their workers that people could believe. Witnesses in the meetings of the Cooneyites testify how they actually preach that the Bible is a dead book. That's right! That God's word is dead, and it does not come alive until their workers - and their workers only - take it up and preach it forth. Let's look at 1 Corinthians 3, because God's word clearly testifies the opposite, 1 Corinthians 3 and verse 5 - Paul writing to this church says: 'Who then is Paul', remember that there were factions there, they weren't Cooneyites and Irvinites and Reidites and Friendites, but they were Paulites, Cephasites, Apollosites, and Christites. So Paul has to address these factions in what should be a unified church: 'Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase'.
Then from their preaching you find out that they preach a salvation that is not through grace alone. They believe it is through grace now, but added to that grace is self-effort. You see, that's the danger. The Catholic Church, believe in grace - although their definition is a lot different than ours - and there are many others who believe in grace, but it's not believing in grace that makes the difference, it's grace alone. In fact, there's a whole book in the Bible that is written about this subject, and that is the book of Galatians. The Galatian controversy was about people who said: 'Yes, we believe the death of Christ saves you, but you've got to add to that circumcision, you've got to add to that the keeping of the law and certain rites and rituals'. You might say: 'Well, they've got the Gospel alright, they've just got a few other things on top of it' - but Paul did not say that, he said that their gospel is not a gospel! “A gospel that adds to grace is not a gospel, just as a gospel that takes from grace is not a gospel”.“
Membership of this group is not through an inward receiving of a relationship with Christ by grace, but it's like any other cult or religion: an outward conformity to their lifestyle”. Though it even be the lifestyle of Jesus, it is not enough - why? Because you cannot live up to the standard of His lifestyle! It lends itself to extreme legalism. “That's what people will testify to who have come out of this cult - it's all rules and regulations, it's not about grace”.
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Post by MD on Feb 18, 2007 5:04:01 GMT -5
Religions are man's way of trying to reach God. The Gospel is God's way of reaching man.
"All men naturally feel that they should earn their salvation, and a system which makes some provision in that regard readily appeals to them. But the apostle Paul lays the axe to such reasoning when he says, '...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law' (Galatians 3:21)." "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (Galatians 6:14).
There are an abundance of false gospels being embraced today by millions of zealous, yet ignorant, people. These false gospels present another jesus who cannot save, a counterfeit jesus who is not the Jesus whom God testifies to in His one and only glorious Gospel.
"...they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the Righteousness of God..." (Romans 10:2,3)
"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation...For therein is the Righteousness of God revealed..." (Romans 1:16,17)
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
One 'pastor' told me he does not know how much error God is willing to put up with in His people. The answer is: no error that contributes to the perversion of the Gospel of Christ — thereby revealing another gospel that God has not declared and another christ whom God does not claim to be his Son — will be tolerated. Error is the spoiler. Error is the leaven that leaveneth the whole lump. Error is that which changes truth into a lie and the Gospel into another gospel. No one ever got saved by acknowledging error! Heaven is for lovers of the truth, not those who are enamoured with a lie. Those who believe a lie, ie. another gospel, far from being saved, are under strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:11). There are no allowances made in God’s plan of salvation for those who believe error, for the whole idea of that Great Plan is that it be believed in order that people can be saved. Knowledge of God’s Truth is the fulfilment of God’s Plan for the salvation of His people (2 Thess. 2:13,14).
A cursory reading of the Scriptures often leaves a person with only a superficial understanding of what God is saying and not the proper one. Those who refuse to study and ‘dig deeper’ into a verse or doctrine, display an attitude of prejudice. He who does not reason from the Scriptures reveals a bias against that which he fears he may discover will prove what he believes to be wrong. He who will not reason from the Scriptures is a slave to that which he holds to, which he is not willing to have examined and therefore not permit it to be challenged, even by the Light of God’s Word. He has pre-judged something based on inadequate, insufficient or false information, refusing to allow himself to view all the evidence.
Such a person reveals an unteachable spirit and an unwillingness to stand corrected and see God’s Truth. He is enslaved by the traditions of men and religious institutions, wilfully ignorant of what God’s Word is saying. Such a person is in a religious comfort zone. All he has is a vain religion, the god of which cannot save him. "To act without clear understanding; to form habits without investigation; to follow a path all one’s life without knowing where it really leads, such is the behaviour of the multitude."
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 5:21:00 GMT -5
Amen to that brother. It's a fearful thing to get on the wrong side of God. When I just read that I felt humbled and it makes me want to check myself again before God and indeed dig into the Word and yearn for true understanding and revelation of what our Glorious Father in Heaven wants of me.
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helen
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by helen on Feb 18, 2007 8:44:17 GMT -5
James:
Why do you ignore these people that ask you questions? Do you not care about their salvation?
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Post by To James on Feb 18, 2007 15:43:58 GMT -5
James,
In reply 281 you seem to be saying that you did not make that post and that you would not be making the following (282) one.
Did you make that post or are you playing games with us.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 16:08:22 GMT -5
...my mistake...281 was my post and 282 that of course was an error as well. I have checked the others and they are correct.
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Post by lloydswanson on Feb 18, 2007 16:08:46 GMT -5
I can forsee the future and tell that posts in the future were not mine.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 17:16:17 GMT -5
I think admin have sorted the problem out. If a post is not mine it will be known.
Post 304 & 305 need to be re-read.
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Post by wondering on Feb 18, 2007 17:27:05 GMT -5
James: Why do you ignore these people that ask you questions? Do you not care about their salvation?
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Post by MD on Feb 18, 2007 18:30:13 GMT -5
James, I'm glad you agree with my previous post #305.
It was taken from a web site and the intention I had was to show that one can speak strongly, plainly, and Biblically without resorting to personal attacks and rudeness.
I would love it if you could keep that in mind when you dialogue with people here.
The most important thing for me is to uphold God's truth thereby creating a challenge to people to discern if what they believe fits.
Jesus only did that which was right in God's eyes which in effect condemned the sinner. Telling others about Jesus and the Gospel is God's way of reaching man. Telling people they are liars, deceived, silly, etc doesn't help at all. In fact it is working against you because people cannot see the Christian life behind your words.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 18:44:16 GMT -5
The point is "Do they care about their salvation?" The Bible tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. If I was not concerned with salvation I would not be on this forum. You have to understand a lot of people that interact here, do not care what is said. They willfully refuse to acknoledge the Truth and thus will have an eternity of torment.
Everything that someone needs to know to walk in the example of Jesus has already been posted here. This is why I urge you deceived people to read and re-read posts 304 and 305 as well as the rest.
If you end up in hell (wich is a place that the Holy Spirit has shown me) and believe me you do not want to go there, you will know that you deserve to be there! This will be comfirmed to the individual for an infinite timeless existence. This is a place of utter horror and totaly unimaginable torment. If you are not living according to the Word of God, when you die you will slip out of your body (like a hand out of a glove) with all your thought and faculties (minus your body) and you will descend into the earth where hell is and there will be no way out.....for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. While you have a body and while you have the luxury of time to repent do so for your clock is always comeing to an end.
If you have one gram of sense in your heads you will do anything to search the scriptures for truth and humble your selves before the REAL JESUS CHRIST. You will repent big time and I sugest you speak out the sinners prayer (which I have posted) even if its in your own words and of course in sinserity.
You should make haste to leave this way you are in and get involved in a normal, local church (or else where) that opperates in the gifts of the Spirit.
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Post by Observing on Feb 18, 2007 18:53:58 GMT -5
James Durston: I think admin have sorted the problem out. If a post is not mine it will be known.
Post 304 & 305 need to be re-read.
James, I agree with you 100%, especially regarding post #305.
Does this mean we will see you answering Helen's questions?
Great!
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Post by James Durston on Feb 18, 2007 18:59:52 GMT -5
The point is "Do they care about their salvation?" The Bible tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. If I was not concerned with salvation I would not be on this forum. You have to understand a lot of people that interact here, do not care what is said. They willfully refuse to acknoledge the Truth and thus will have an eternity of torment.
Everything that someone needs to know to walk in the example of Jesus has already been posted here. This is why I urge you deceived people to read and re-read posts 304 and 305 as well as the rest.
If you end up in hell (wich is a place that the Holy Spirit has shown me) and believe me you do not want to go there, you will know that you deserve to be there! This will be comfirmed to the individual for an infinite timeless existence. This is a place of utter horror and totaly unimaginable torment. If you are not living according to the Word of God, when you die you will slip out of your body (like a hand out of a glove) with all your thought and faculties (minus your body) and you will descend into the earth where hell is and there will be no way out.....for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. While you have a body and while you have the luxury of time to repent do so for your clock is always comeing to an end.
If you have one gram of sense in your heads you will do anything to search the scriptures for truth and humble your selves before the REAL JESUS CHRIST. You will repent big time and I sugest you speak out the sinners prayer (which I have posted) even if its in your own words and of course in sinserity.
You should make haste to leave this way you are in and get involved in a normal, local church (or else where) that opperates in the gifts of the Spirit.
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