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Post by James Durston on Feb 13, 2007 21:27:09 GMT -5
..You did inadvertently actually imply they are a cult. You are talking about “allowed teaching” and “retribution for telling the truth” “not expressing what you believe”.
Without a doubt this is what a cult has. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT AT ALL!!! So your not a Worker or one of the Friends – fair enough….but I wish they would admit what you just said…they wont though because they lie and are afraid.
COME ON YOU FRIENDS,----OWN UP TO YOUR OVERALL BELIEFS AND DOCTRINES!!!
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Post by Follower on Feb 13, 2007 21:31:51 GMT -5
James,
I am saying this as one of the friends. Your assesment may be the conviction of some, but not all. Some workers may preach that, but not all.
So if you would quit painting us all with such a wide brush as cult, I think most here would quit painting all the x's as hateful and evil.
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Post by gregleepluggedin on Feb 13, 2007 21:40:37 GMT -5
James, I am saying this as one of the friends. Your assesment may be the conviction of some, but not all. Some workers may preach that, but not all. So if you would quit painting us all with such a wide brush as cult, I think most here would quit painting all the x's as hateful and evil. Aquarian, do you think people can be true believers and be saved and know of the wokrers' church and not want to be in it? Have you ever heard a worker speak specifically, pointedly that people alive today and not in the workers' church are true believers?
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Post by James Durston on Feb 13, 2007 21:47:33 GMT -5
So we have a divided house? Look Sunshine, if you got all the Workers together they would declare that this is the only way and that you cant go to any churchy looking buildings. END OF STOREY! If they say differently privately, that’s deception, hypercritical and of the devil. It constitutes a cult. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!
…AND while I am on the subject stop winging about the x's as hateful and evil. This is not so much about you guys but about Jesus Christ and what He says. Wake up and be honest and stop lying. Admit what we all know!!!
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Post by Observing on Feb 13, 2007 22:18:24 GMT -5
James Durston: Come on guys, I spent 34 years in this way that you are in, let us at least as has been posted, get on and be a bit honest with each other. I want to read all your admissions on these two points. ..you are pretty good at talking about other things! James, I can say without equivocation that your experiences are not universal.
I can also see that you are not really interested in what anyone has to say if it does not agree with your preconceived idea.
James Durston: The two points are: POINT ONE; You have to be in this way to be saved.
POINT TWO is: You do not meet in churchy looking buildings because God does not dwell there and they are evil!
Are you back to defining a cult?
Do you want to say that exclusivity makes a group a cult? You must realize that this would make Christianity a cult as well.
As for point two - although you do not want to hear it, there are times when meetings are in churches.
I think that most religions and denominations would say God does not dwell in churches. How are the F&Ws different in this case?
James Durston: I am not interested in individual variations, I am talking about the overall accepted beliefs, so come on guys the least you can do is admit the truth. I want all you posters to declare the truth now! (incuding the quiet ones).
Several people have tried to tell you their thoughts but because they do not say what you want to hear you continue to rant and rave. You have to stop and ask yourself - do you really want an answer or just an echo of your own distorted views?
James Durston: So we have a divided house? Look Sunshine, if you got all the Workers together they would declare that this is the only way and that you cant go to any churchy looking buildings. END OF STOREY!
Once again, James, you are just wrong. (And, FWIW, you continue to misspell story.)
James Durston: If they say differently privately, that’s deception, hypercritical and of the devil. It constitutes a cult. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!
What you are saying here is that if they do not parrot your own preconceived notions back to you they must be lying because you cannot be mistaken.
I must ask again - are you setting up a cult?
James Durston: …AND while I am on the subject stop winging about the x's as hateful and evil. This is not so much about you guys but about Jesus Christ and what He says. Wake up and be honest and stop lying. Admit what we all know!!!
Talk about honesty, Jim. You do not want people to admit what they know. You want them to tell you what you want to hear.
Do you think this might be a good time to start over?
Tell us how you define a cult.
Lay out your argument and let the readers express their views.
Or do you just want to keep repeating your points and blowing your own horn?
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Post by hhuuhh on Feb 13, 2007 22:20:42 GMT -5
I read my bible 20 times, and I havent come across Gods way being called a CULT in the bible, me thinks James is smoking dope.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 13, 2007 22:23:04 GMT -5
I will only say this one more time on this thread. I have absolutely no time whatsoever for you Observing. I have little respect fo you. You are an anti Christ and one very confused cookcoo!
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Post by ahhaa on Feb 13, 2007 22:25:14 GMT -5
I appreciate your honesty. ...but by that admision...(and you are not going to like this if you are a Friend or Worker) constitutes a hallmark of a cult..... No doubt about it!But I do appreciate your honesty and if you are a Friend or Worker its not easy being honest in that enviroment!I made no admission and I am not a worker or one of their friends. Still, I do not think they are a cult. I think they are a pseudo-christian sect and are much like a secret club. Well, I aint really keeping score, but I believe this is the nicest thing Greg ever said about my beliefs.
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Post by correction on Feb 13, 2007 22:27:18 GMT -5
I will only say this one more time on this thread. I have absolutely no time whatsoever for you James D. I have little respect fo you. You are an anti Christ and one very confused cookcoo!
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Post by whimpie on Feb 13, 2007 22:31:50 GMT -5
I will only say this one more time on this thread. I have absolutely no time whatsoever for you Observing. I have little respect fo you. You are an anti Christ and one very confused cookcoo! Don't let them get under your skin James. They have little choice in life but to chase their tails....... They build their delusion on sand and mud They must hold on to what they believe, so they must stay put.... Round and round and around they go They live in a box with not far to go. They circle to the left, then to the right. But are in the same place, again tonight. They follow the workers so close, their nose is obscured, They don't boast of Jesus, cause they follow the herd,
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Post by James Durston on Feb 13, 2007 22:46:12 GMT -5
You know Wimple I was only thinking of you earlier on today about that first post of yours. It is so acurate I will post it again. Its an answer to mine about: is this a cult?
Your reply goes like this:
Yes, They are. They teach that "they are the "Kingdom of God on Earth". They teach all others are false They use all manner of coersion (fear, guilt, shame, lies, etc....) They use the tools of the flesh, not the tools of the Spirit, Hope Faith, and Charity. They suck the life out of their victims, paralyzing them, then devouring them and their lives for the sake of their own vanity. If you refuse to be devoured by them, they say you will burn in hell. (But they say that behind your back mostly) Cause they are afraid to say the Truth. They fear the words of others, cause they use words to control their victims.
They teach a gospel of fear................
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Post by braindead on Feb 13, 2007 22:50:45 GMT -5
You know Wimple I was only thinking of you earlier on today about that first post of yours. It is so acurate I will post it again. Its an answer to mine about: is this a cult? Your reply goes like this: Yes, They are. They teach that "they are the "Kingdom of God on Earth". They teach all others are false They use all manner of coersion (fear, guilt, shame, lies, etc....) They use the tools of the flesh, not the tools of the Spirit, Hope Faith, and Charity. They suck the life out of their victims, paralyzing them, then devouring them and their lives for the sake of their own vanity. If you refuse to be devoured by them, they say you will burn in hell. (But they say that behind your back mostly) Cause they are afraid to say the Truth. They fear the words of others, cause they use words to controltheir victims. They teach a gospel of fear................ sounds like you are having trouble brainwashing people to believe your lies, James D.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 13, 2007 23:01:16 GMT -5
The teachings of the Friends and Workers mainly come from Matthew chapter 10, if you would like to turn to it, this is the basis that William Irvine based his teachings in this group upon and what the Friends & Workers continue to swear by. This is the third foundational truth of the Friends and Workers (POINT THREE)
These are the words spoken by the Lord Jesus first to His disciples, he also based it on the text of Luke 9 and 10, but we'll concentrate for the sake of simplicity on Matthew chapter 10, and we read there in verse 9 that Jesus said: 'Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat'.
Now the Lord Jesus Christ spoke this to His first followers, and Irvine took these two verses of Scripture out of Matthew chapter 10 and the context that they are found in, which we'll deal with, and he developed a band of men around him, a band of followers who went preaching two-by-two. That's why they're called the 'Two-by-Twos'.
They (Workers) preach the gospel that you ought to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is our example, and therefore this is the one and only way.
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Post by Observing on Feb 14, 2007 0:09:24 GMT -5
James Durston: I will only say this one more time on this thread. I have absolutely no time whatsoever for you Observing. So, James, as I understand it, I will only have to hear this from you one more time.
That would make this the penultimate warning.
And, I guess, I thank you for the information.
James Durston: I have little respect fo you. You are an anti Christ and one very confused cookcoo!
Let's see. How could I have earned this.
1) I asked you to provide us with your definition of 'cult' so we would all be starting at the same place. Tried to anticipate and avoid confusion.
2) I pointed out that the F&W believe, as you do, that God dwells in people and not in churches or any other building.
3) I related my experience of having attended meetings in churches.
4) I requested that you back up some of your statements with scripture.
In return you gave called me evil, said I was the anti-Christ, said I was damned, etc.
Perhaps as a personal favor to me you could point out how I am confused. Is it because I do not think you are a true representative of God? Is it because I ask you questions? Please shed some light.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by Observing on Feb 14, 2007 0:15:41 GMT -5
whimpie: Don't let them get under your skin James. They have little choice in life but to chase their tails....... They build their delusion on sand and mud They must hold on to what they believe, so they must stay put....
Round and round and around they go They live in a box with not far to go. They circle to the left, then to the right. But are in the same place, again tonight.
They follow the workers so close, their nose is obscured, They don't boast of Jesus, cause they follow the herd,
This is interesting. I am not a member of the F&W. I do not follow, and have not for decades, followed the workers.
So will you now rewrite your doggerel?
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Post by nonsenseCherie on Feb 14, 2007 0:59:15 GMT -5
To CP RE: Saying what I said, I can't think of better way to raise my children than in this way. ***Do you have any daughters? the "way" is very hard on daughters. I suspect you are caught in a time warp Cherie. I know hundreds of teenage kids in "this way", and most are well treated and well adjusted. Sure, a few are still subject to extremist parents, but that's rare. Today, I would say that "this way" is a pretty good upbringing for young people and most of them would agree. Talk to a few.
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Post by Observing on Feb 14, 2007 1:00:22 GMT -5
James Durston: The teachings of the Friends and Workers mainly come from Matthew chapter 10, if you would like to turn to it, this is the basis that William Irvine based his teachings in this group upon and what the Friends & Workers continue to swear by. This is the third foundational truth of the Friends and Workers (POINT THREE)
Sending out homeless preachers in pairs makes the F&W a cult? How does this in any way make a group a cult?
How would a non-cult send out their preachers?
James Durston: Now the Lord Jesus Christ spoke this to His first followers, and Irvine took these two verses of Scripture out of Matthew chapter 10 and the context that they are found in, which we'll deal with, and he developed a band of men around him, a band of followers who went preaching two-by-two. That's why they're called the 'Two-by-Twos'.
Is the problem because the verse was lifted out of context?
James - from what I have seen you are close to the all time champion in taking verses out of context or applying your very own special meaning. I am thinking maybe we should acknowledge your special talent for doing this by calling it durstonation.
durstonation - noun The act or process of selecting and interpreting scripture to support your point of view, rejecting all questions or critical analysis.
James Durston: They (Workers) preach the gospel that you ought to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is our example, and therefore this is the one and only way.
So James, let me make sure I understand you. The workers say follow the Lord Jesus and this makes them a cult?
You say the workers hold Jesus up as an example and this makes them a cult?
You are saying the workers preaching that following the example of Jesus is the only way and you take issue with this? Isn't that the basis of Christianity?
Are you sure you have typed the correct third point?
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Post by to James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 1:04:35 GMT -5
Thanks for telling us why your on the TMB .... you want to heckle and 'stir up the pot' as you said.
Yes, I know what a cult is and simply put, it is declaring that which is not true. And you have been doing that so we know in part what your own cult belief system is.
Thanks again for declaring of what you really are..... and may God have mercy on you.
amen
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Post by James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 2:48:18 GMT -5
The teachings of the Friends and Workers mainly come from Matthew chapter 10, if you would like to turn to it, this is the basis that William Irvine based his teachings in this group upon and what the Friends & Workers continue to swear by. This is the third foundational truth of the Friends and Workers (POINT THREE)
These are the words spoken by the Lord Jesus first to His disciples, he also based it on the text of Luke 9 and 10, but we'll concentrate for the sake of simplicity on Matthew chapter 10, and we read there in verse 9 that Jesus said: 'Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat'.
Now the Lord Jesus Christ spoke this to His first followers, and Irvine took these two verses of Scripture out of Matthew chapter 10 and the context that they are found in, which we'll deal with, and he developed a band of men around him, a band of followers who went preaching two-by-two. That's why they're called the 'Two-by-Twos'.
They (Workers) preach the gospel that you ought to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is our example, and therefore this is the one and only way.
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Post by Geoff on Feb 14, 2007 3:07:50 GMT -5
The time differences round the world seem to make this a 24hour discussion. That in itself is interesting.
Now James, you're wanting "admissions", and "owning up". In this way you seem to imply that I am a naughty boy who should just tell the truth about what I did.
As I didn't say what you wanted to hear, speaking only about what I myself believe, you are upset. I've never denied (or confirmed) what other people believe, that for them to do, but I can give you my opinion. The majority think that there is only salvation in our fellowship, that meeting in dedicated buildings is not Gods will, and that a paired itinerant ministry is following a scriptural example. There are also many who disagree with the first, and think the second two quite optional but desirable.
But I note that in your desperation to prove something you continue to fail to address my questions. If you have a genuine desire to convert people from our fellowship to yours (or some other), then you would care about individuals. I'm an individual, but you clearly would prefer that I just go away and hide, and stop interrupting your soapbox dissertation.
So, repeating (and simplifying) my question:
Can ANYONE possibly be saved withing the 2x2's? A YES or NO answer will do.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 3:57:20 GMT -5
Geoff, why don't you start your own thread? I would be more than happy to have a look at all your questions.
Although I want to help you I really feel I should stick to the 3 (so far) foundational beliefs of the Friends & Workers.
You say you are an individual and have your own beliefs. I don’t have a problem with that. I need to get the overall accepted consensus of the Friends and Workers world wide. I know you said something about straight questions and straight answers. Can we be friends?
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Post by James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 13:31:04 GMT -5
Now it would be accurate that Matthew chapter 10 is the place in the Bible that the Workers and Friends justify their beliefs and origins.
They require, on the basis of Matthew chapter 10 and a couple of portions in Luke, that their preachers must forsake all possessions, give up everything that they have, sell it, and go out in poverty to serve the Lord.
Though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. They not only claim exclusivity as the sole descendants of the church in the New Testament from the apostles, they also claim that their preachers are the only ones who are genuine and preaching the true gospel.
They went a step further by saying that people can only obtain salvation through the preaching of their preachers, their workers, preaching their Gospel.
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Post by another cult on Feb 14, 2007 13:49:44 GMT -5
Oh, quite contraire, James, you and your preachers are the only ones that hold the real truth. But then that makes you amd your preachers a cult,
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Post by Geoff on Feb 14, 2007 14:48:50 GMT -5
James
You said "I know you said something about straight questions and straight answers. Can we be friends?"
Yes I did say that, but although you here acknowledge it, you still din't answer any question I asked directly.
Can we be friends?
Of course we can. I have many friends that have called me far worse than fool, silly, liar, deceived, evil, and other such terms. I know that you don't know me, so I assume you are being frivolous in making those comments about me based on NO KNOWLEDGE OF ME. (other than what I have posted here)
However I have to take issue with you on this point you've made. "...they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate."
There have been, and still are married preachers. There have been married preachers with children. Not many I grant, but enough to disprove your all encompassing statement.
I see an emerging parallel in your coments about the 2x2 fellowship. The Catholic Church has some quite dogmatic teachings about such matters as contraception and birth control. Now would it be fair to say that all Catholics accept and support this teaching? Why I know priests that don't support it, but officially its a teaching.
You claim that 2x2 belief is universally one of exclusivity. How many members who do not support that doctrine does it take to for that not to be a doctrine?
This point applies to ALL denominations. There are differences of opinion within each. I suggest that even in your denomination there are differences of opinion about doctrinal matters.
So is it fair to claim that ALL members are lost and unsaved, are evil and silly, are wicked and agents of Satan?
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Post by James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 18:40:08 GMT -5
I feel that you have some anger Geoff. I would like to help you. Did you consider starting a new thread?
Though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. This is a fundemental and undisputed fact. There is no question about it. If you have heard of married workers they are not from the UK, Ireland or USA. You see this is another reason that constitutes a cult which I want to talk about. Its called confusion.
It's obvious you see things from a different perspective Geoff. How where you saved Geoff? When where you saved Geoff?
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Post by whimpie on Feb 14, 2007 19:21:30 GMT -5
I feel that you have some anger Geoff. I would like to help you. Did you consider starting a new thread? Though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. This is a fundemental and undisputed fact. There is no question about it. If you have heard of married workers they are not from the UK, Ireland or USA. You see this is another reason that constitutes a cult which I want to talk about. Its called confusion. It's obvious you see things from a different perspective Geoff. How where you saved Geoff? When where you saved Geoff? I feel for you James, trying to have a conversation with a parrot is very unfulfilling isn't it? They stand for nothing except themselves, so how can you teach a parrot to quack like a duck? Only the workers can do that.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 14, 2007 19:30:21 GMT -5
List of Workers Who Were Married and Listed on the 1905 Workers' List who were from the U.K. and Ireland:Betty, Tom & Elizabeth (nee Pendreigh) (she was formerly a worker with Faith Mission) On 1921 Staffordshire Worker Convention photograph as Nos. 73, 101. 1905 Tom entered work. Carroll, William (Bill) & Margaret/Maggie (nee Hastings) Ireland; Australia 1903 entered work; On 1921 Staffordshire Worker Convention photograph as Nos. 91, 142. No. 201 is their daughter, May Carroll Schulz, born 1901, married Dolph Schulz, ex-worker and wrote Hymn Nos. 279, 258, 195, 315. Margaret last listed on Victoria Workers List in 1940. Deceased: Bill died Nov. 12, 1953; Margaret died in 1944. Elliott, Tom & Ellen 1902 entered work - they sided with Ed Cooney in 1928 Division. Left original group. On 1921 Worker Convention photograph as Nos. 16, 168 Photo on Page 27 of The Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney 1867-1960 by Patricia Roberts. Tom died in 1930; Mrs. Elliott died April 16, 1966. Both passed away in England, per P Roberts. McClung, Wilson & Anne (Annie) Ireland, Australia, New Zealand 1903 entered work. Shown on 1921 Worker Convention photograph as Nos. 92, 94. Wilson born c1868; died May 15, 1944; Annie born c1871; died Jan 29, 1945. Wilson died in Auckland, New Zealand in 1944;survived by Annie. Richardson, Nat & Mrs. Ireland. While not shown on the 1905 list, the Feb 16, 1905, Impartial Reporter tells the contents of a gospel meeting where Nat Richardson relates how he came to the decision to go into the work and he mentions his concern for his wife and boy. Shown on 1921 Worker Convention photograph as Nos. 136 and 34. For names of married workers from USA, Canada, Australia, NZ and other countries, go to: home.earthlink.net/%7Etruth444/BRG5-1-2WrkrMarried.html
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Post by James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 20:22:52 GMT -5
Ok..So we have some documentation of married workers. This is helpful and I assume Geoff this is where you get your thoughts from.
If you have heard of married workers they are not from the UK, Ireland or USA. The ones that were are now well and truly dead!!!!!
I say again, though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. Make no mistake about it guys, married workers are not allowed or accepted within the Meetings. Period, to try and say different is ridiculous!! They strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate! I hope I have made the truth on this particular point because we cannot really get any more mileage out of it.
You see guys you will always find oddities within the Friends & Workers because that is the nature of the beast! From time to time unusual exceptions do occur. Try and get the point guys and stop majoring on minors.
Yea you are right Wimple, bottom line is that it is often very unfulfilling! Geoff and so many others talk about all the things that don’t matter and miss the entire point. This is because they don’t like truth and are liars. …you see they are just compelled to not see the things that really matter, the things that really count, the things that are exciting in the Christian walk…..because they are not serving Jesus Christ but another Jesus and they get very upset if you try and tell them any truth!
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