elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on Feb 14, 2007 20:41:16 GMT -5
Ok..So we have some documentation of married workers. This is helpful and I assume Geoff this is where you get your thoughts from. If you have heard of married workers they are not from the UK, Ireland or USA. The ones that were are now well and truly dead!!!!! I say again, though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. Make no mistake about it guys, married workers are not allowed or accepted within the Meetings. Period, to try and say different is ridiculous!! They strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate! You see guys you will always find oddities within the Friends & Workers because that is the nature of the beast! From time to time unusual exceptions do occur. Try and get the point guys and stop majoring on minors. Yes there are always exceptions and one person’s experience is not another’s (how many times will this statement reoccur!!) but I can't resist adding some more on married workers I’m confident that there are still some married (or once married) workers active today. What is probably different now is that their partners are not also workers but either are either separated or divorced from them or dead. I guess this makes them celibate. One example that immediately strings to mind is Jill Yule, a B&R relatively young (under 40) worker from Australia now in South America.
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Post by whimpie on Feb 14, 2007 20:41:20 GMT -5
Ok..So we have some documentation of married workers. This is helpful and I assume Geoff this is where you get your thoughts from. If you have heard of married workers they are not from the UK, Ireland or USA. The ones that were are now well and truly dead!!!!! I say again, though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. Make no mistake about it guys, married workers are not allowed or accepted within the Meetings. Period, to try and say different is ridiculous!! They strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate! I hope I have made the truth on this particular point because we cannot really get any more mileage out of it. You see guys you will always find oddities within the Friends & Workers because that is the nature of the beast! From time to time unusual exceptions do occur. Try and get the point guys and stop majoring on minors. Yea you are right Wimple, bottom line is that it is often very unfulfilling! Geoff and so many others talk about all the things that don’t matter and miss the entire point. This is because they don’t like truth and are liars. …you see they are just compelled to not see the things that really matter, the things that really count, the things that are exciting in the Christian walk…..because they are not serving Jesus Christ but another Jesus and they get very upset if you try and tell them any truth! I agree James. You and I were once in the same boat and know they are worth fighting for. Jesus wants us to.............. Jesus wants them to share his glory and victory. The dark one wants to keep Jesus hidden............ He wants them to run around and around on that wheel chasing the carrot of salvation as the workers taught them.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 14, 2007 21:35:17 GMT -5
Amen Wimple. Its so obvious that the dark side is manifesting through a lot of thes guys. Demonic forces dont want these people to see what I am saying. I have always known that I am fighting these dark forces.
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Post by Observing on Feb 14, 2007 22:15:47 GMT -5
James Durston:
Though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. This is a fundemental and undisputed fact. There is no question about it.
Again, James, I must point out that you are once again in error. While it might be the usual and customary it is not a fundamental and undisputed fact.
Just as a point of clarification, which definition of celibate are you using:
1) One who abstains from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows. 2) One who is unmarried.
James Durston: If you have heard of married workers they are not from the UK, Ireland or USA.
Again, James, I must point out that once again you are in error. For example, I knew George and Ella Johnson, a married couple who were in the work in New York.
Unless I am mistake, and I'm not, New York is in the USA.
James Durston: You see this is another reason that constitutes a cult which I want to talk about. Its called confusion.
So you have stated something that is in error. And this is why the F&Ws are a cult? Because you do not know the facts?
Correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seem right that errors on your part should be the reason any group is called a cult.
James, you are so sure you are right but your errors are piling up as time goes by. Maybe you need to reconsider and start a real discussion where we can all add to the mix and maybe everyone can learn something.
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Post by Observing on Feb 14, 2007 23:30:20 GMT -5
whimpie I feel for you James, trying to have a conversation with a parrot is very unfulfilling isn't it?
Actually,not having a conversation with a parrot is what is frustrating James. He would like very much for people to parrot back to him what he has asked them to say without pointing out the errors in his statements and the flaws in his logic.
But you are doing a super job for Jim as that brilliantly colored Psittacus erithacus!
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 14, 2007 23:48:01 GMT -5
Does anyone know of anyone who is married and their spouse living who has been allowed into the work into the last 50 years?
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elle
Junior Member
Posts: 192
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Post by elle on Feb 14, 2007 23:56:29 GMT -5
Does anyone know of anyone who is married and their spouse living who has been allowed into the work into the last 50 years? Yes Jill Yule in Ecuador ( ? or somewhere at the top of South America). She was married 15 to 20 years ago to a professing B&R guy, he was allegedly abusive ( and I'm very inclined to believe this but have no personal knowledge/evidence of it), and they separated about 10 years ago and are probably divorced (I'm not sure of this). Her former husband has another partner with whom he has a child. He is still alive but I don’t know whether he still attends meetings. Jill would be getting close to 40 and has been in the work for several years- probably more than 5 and less than 10.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 0:13:48 GMT -5
Now it would be accurate that Matthew chapter 10 is the place in the Bible that the Workers and Friends justify their beliefs and origins.
They require, on the basis of Matthew chapter 10 and a couple of portions in Luke, that their preachers must forsake all possessions, give up everything that they have, sell it, and go out in poverty to serve the Lord.
Though it is not always practised they strictly require their preachers and workers to be celibate. They not only claim exclusivity as the sole descendants of the church in the New Testament from the apostles, they also claim that their preachers are the only ones who are genuine and preaching the true gospel.
They went a step further by saying that people can only obtain salvation through the preaching of their preachers, their workers, preaching their Gospel.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 0:31:34 GMT -5
I can prove beyond a show of a doubt that the Friends & Workers understanding on Matthew 10 wich they base their beliefs on are totaly unfounded and uterly out of context. I can further prove that Jesus doea not support this in the context we hear about.
You see guys you can not cherry pick scripture. That is what has happened here and is a hallmark of a cult!!
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Post by Geoff on Feb 15, 2007 3:10:29 GMT -5
:-/For a worker statement about married workers, see home.earthlink.net/%7Etruth444/BRG5-1-2WrkrMarried.html#AnnouncementThere are still living active married workers. Not many, but how many does it take to disprove a blanket statement that there are NONE ? James I don't have any anger about this, or you. I think by the names you call people and the language you use against some fellow Christians, that you might. I'm not sure what (if anything) I can do to help you. You asked about my salvation. (I'm not sure why you asked) How? It was when I accepted the free gift of grace extended to me by God, soon after I realised that I was a sinner and could not exist without repenting and being justified. I admit that sanctification still has a long way to go, I'm still in that process. When? in the 70s Where? I was in New Zealand at the time. I note that you still didn't answer the question, so for your convenience I'll repeat it: In your opinion...Can ANYONE possibly be saved withing the 2x2's? A YES or NO answer will do.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 6:32:15 GMT -5
How did you accept the free gift of grace Geoff? And did you say a sinner’s prayer?
As far as your questions about anyone being saved in 2x2 it is probably the wrong question to ask right now! Pleased don’t be annoyed with me because I am prepared to answer all your questions in a bit. Before I do can you do me a big favour and get on board with the things I am saying. I am trying to get you guys to admit to the overall general doctrine….YES I know you have your points and verse’s, but please….just for the sake of argument can you bear with me please and talk from the vast general consensus?
Just one more thing: is that animated icon you have by your name a reflection of how you feel?
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Post by Geoff on Feb 15, 2007 6:53:13 GMT -5
James Interesting questions...
"How did you accept the free gift of grace ?"
I'm not sure how to answer that. How does one accept a gift? I guess the following words help to portray how.. graciously, thankfully, undeservedly, with awe, brokenly, recognising that it was as a result of the death of God the Son that I was offered it... etc
Thats a hard one to put into words.
"And did you say a sinner’s prayer?"
While not using the words you have recommended, in effect what I prayed amounted to much the same.
You said "...can you do me a big favour and get on board with the things I am saying."
I'm not sure that I fully understand what you're asking. If you are wanting me to publicly endorse what you say, then the answer is "no". If you are asking if I agree with anything you say, then I have already answered that. If you re-read my posts (maybe you missed them), I have several times agreed with some of the things you have said.
You ask me to "admit" the doctrine of people I don't know. I can't do that. I can admit to what I know of those I do know, and more appropriately to what I beleive myself, but I cannot answer for others.
Animated icon: This does not reflect my feelings generally. But it does partially reflect my feelings towards my inanimate computer!
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 7:19:56 GMT -5
Geoff, do you know the vast general doctrines of the Friends and Workers? If you dont mind, just a yes or a no.
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Post by parrot on Feb 15, 2007 7:25:36 GMT -5
what am I suppose to agree with, you sound cornfused James
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Post by parrot on Feb 15, 2007 7:28:03 GMT -5
Geoff, do you know the vast general doctrines of the Friends and Workers? If you dont mind, just a yes or a no. Yes.
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Post by parrot II on Feb 15, 2007 7:30:13 GMT -5
Geoff, do you know the vast general doctrines of the Friends and Workers? If you dont mind, just a yes or a no. No.
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Post by jason storebo on Feb 15, 2007 7:40:42 GMT -5
Greetings, James. At what point in your life as a young professing man did "the scales" fall from your eyes? I remember being present when you professed at Olympia convention. This would be circa 1981...and you may have been app. age twelve.
I have not followed this thread in its entirety, and may have missed a lot...but could you tell me a little about your adventures along your personal spiritual path...that eventuated in your abandoning the 2x2 faith and coming to a belief in pentacostalism?
If you would like to communicate privately you can Email me at...
jasonstorebo@aol.com
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Post by Geoff on Feb 15, 2007 7:51:30 GMT -5
I can't answer with only "yes" or "no" without fully understanding the question. What do you mean by the "vast general doctrines" ?
as an aside I note that this is the second occasion you've asked me to answer with a yes or no, (the first time I did so), but you didn't do the same when I asked you.
If you mean am I aware of and do I understand the content of, the extremes of and the variability of such aspects of doctrine as..
* church in the home * paired itinerant preaching * exclusivity * dress code * coiffure code * Electronic apparatus code * gender discrimination code * attitude to trinitarianism * attitude to subjects such as sanctification, justification *assurance of salvation now, or later * attitude to participation in cultural, sporting and social activities * Understanding of the history of the fellowship * living witness doctrine * Jesus deity * etc etc
Then my one word answer is "yes". I think I do know about them, what some say they are, and have a feel for the variability on many of them from a geographic and cultural perspective.
Now, how about my unanswered question:
In your opinion...Can ANYONE possibly be saved within the 2x2's? A YES or NO answer will do.
spelling corrected
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Post by slow to see on Feb 15, 2007 9:02:21 GMT -5
In your opinion...Can ANYONE possibly be saved withing the 2x2's? A YES or NO answer will do.
Hi there, Geoff, I know you are not asking me, but I'll chime in with a YES. Alvin
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Post by to James d on Feb 15, 2007 12:48:07 GMT -5
Geoff, do you know the vast general doctrines of the Friends and Workers? If you dont mind, just a yes or a no. Yes. what else do you want me to say? bawk bawk ........ where is my cracker James?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 15, 2007 13:03:07 GMT -5
To James, I have read through your posts concerning this subject, and I find the points you are trying to make to be hard to follow. You have more or less demanded that people respond to your questions, and seem to get upset when people do not respond as you feel they should. It does no good for you to SHOUT at us. I personally find it offensive. You seem to regard this whole post to be 'yours', when in fact it 'belongs' to all who want to share on this subject. I wanted to get a little more info about you and where you are coming from, so I googled your name. I was able to handle about 10 minutes of your 43 minute 'testimony' concerning the 2x2's and how you were raised. I am sorry that your upbringing was so harsh on you. I grew up in the 2x2 religion, and never experienced what you did. Quite the opposite actually. I haven't been 'professing' as a 2x2 for 32 years or so now, and it took me 22 years before I truly found Jesus/God in my life and allowed him to take charge. I still fall back into some of my old thoughts/behaviors on occasion, but with Jesus and Gods help I always seem to make it back. I checked out your web site, and went to your chat room, but there was no one there to chat with. Guess that may be why you are at the TMB site... To Geoff, I have found all your responses to James' demands/insults/etc. to be very well thought out and sincere. As an 'exer' I think that your beliefs are quite similar to mine. Everyone has their own personal relationship with God, and it is between God and us as to whether we are saved or not. I commend you on your restraint while dealing with this subject. For what it is worth, yes I do believe that 'some' of those in the 2x2 religion will be saved. Much that I believe that 'some' of those in the Lutheran/Baptist/etc. religions will be saved. For All who have posted here, The following are a few excerpts from the Bible that I thought I would share with you. I personally need to remind myself of these words...... Sometimes daily. Matthew 7 Judging Others 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Luke 6 37 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full—pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back.[c]” James 4 11 Don’t speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters.[d] If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. 12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor? How about we all leave the judging in Gods hands where he has so rightly told us that it is. We don't have to agree with each other, but we ARE supposed to LOVE each other. Scott
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 13:15:48 GMT -5
Thankyou Geoff.
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 21:04:34 GMT -5
Now if you are ignorant of the rest of the Scriptures, and if you casually read and study the word of God, you might think that the Workers & Friends understanding on Mathew 10 is tremendously commendable.
We're going right back to the Bible, right back to the way that the Lord Jesus Christ did things! But let me show you again, if you doubt that The Friends and Workers are a cult, this is a classic way that cults use and abuse the Holy Scriptures.
For instance, if you look at verse 5 of chapter 10, it reads: 'These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel'…………... The Lord Jesus at this particular time in His ministry actually claims that He was not there to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, but rather He was going and sending His own disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Israel………………. Now here is a case in point at the very beginning of their interpretation of these verses, we see how they transgress it themselves - because the Workers, they go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel!
You can't cherry-pick Scriptures contextually, in the same context where we have these verses in verse 9 and 10 telling us to go two-by-two and so on, is the same place where Jesus told them not to go the way of the Gentiles but to go to the lost house of the people of Israel.
.......Yet the Friends are to be found in Ulster! And, as we will see in Oneness Pentecostal teaching, we are not the lost tribe of Israel, neither are the Americans, but we are Europeans - or at least most of us - and we are Gentiles, yet they have come to us to preach the gospel. They're transgressing their own terms, if you like.
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Post by not a parrot on Feb 15, 2007 21:57:14 GMT -5
You can't cherry-pick Scriptures contextually, in the same context where we have these verses in verse 9 and 10 telling us to go two-by-two and so on, is the same place where Jesus told them not to go the way of the Gentiles but to go to the lost house of the people of Israel. .......Yet the Friends are to be found in Ulster! And, as we will see in Oneness Pentecostal teaching, we are not the lost tribe of Israel, neither are the Americans, but we are Europeans - or at least most of us - and we are Gentiles, yet they have come to us to preach the gospel. They're transgressing their own terms, if you like. Well, they are only suppose to go to the lost sheep of Israel at that time. But as you so well know, not acknowledged [of yet] , it is that these 'sent ones', were ALSO instructed at a later time and place, to preach unto those in Ulster. Oh, James you are a sly fox, arent you?? ;D
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Post by James Durston on Feb 15, 2007 23:02:53 GMT -5
No I am not a sly fox. The scriptures speak for them selves. There is no argument here! You my friend, like others are a liar, a deceiver and are indeed deceived! ....keep looking at the world from your dolls house if thats what you want.
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Post by parrot II on Feb 15, 2007 23:18:02 GMT -5
You say there is no scripture that promotes the preaching of the gospel, to the fine folk in Ulster? What about Go ye into all the world...... I have heard workers use this verse for the reason that Ulster should not be avoided.
Shame on you, James d, you must be an exclusive sly fox ??
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Post by James Durston on Feb 16, 2007 0:19:34 GMT -5
No I did not say that, I said what I said! But you guys in the meetings like to pervert everything---I mean everything!
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Post by bud d on Feb 16, 2007 0:25:49 GMT -5
Oh, James, dont get jealous and upset. I know that is suppose to be your job.
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