Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 22:53:10 GMT -5
This poster has contacted me and identified themselves. Yes, they are legitimate, but I do not think they fully understand just how many people have been affected by CSA. I do believe this individual has a legitimate belief that most workers wish to deal with CSA issues correctly. The problem as I see it, is there are those senior workers who continue to 'protect' the fellowship rather than openly and honestly deal with the problem. I don't think they understand just how much harm they are causing their church. Scott c  Scott has posted the above. Perhaps an earlier post of mine requires some clarification? The only people who need fear from anything I am trying to do are (i)those who have erred (i.e abusers or those who have not dealt with abuse in a correct and appropriate manner when it is or has been their responsibility to do so) and won't repent and turn from it and (ii)those who will be robbed of a issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. I have as much time and respect for abusers and those who cover up for them as I do for those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. I have given my email address and several have made contact with me. I doubt if I will need to post here again? I have only used this public forum as a means to get in contact with people. Any who have a desire to help and have verifiable and undeniable information that will help show what would need to be done so that the ministry in Vict/Tas is known and respected for its integrity in its handling of child abuse can contact me. waroo1977@gmail.com Who are you? What is your plan of use for the information you receive? What authority or power do you have to bring the ministry respect or become reformed to do what is right with CSA? Are you in communication with the WINGS group? |
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Post by wa on Feb 9, 2012 23:33:13 GMT -5
Scott has posted the above. Perhaps an earlier post of mine requires some clarification? The only people who need fear from anything I am trying to do are (i)those who have erred (i.e abusers or those who have not dealt with abuse in a correct and appropriate manner when it is or has been their responsibility to do so) and won't repent and turn from it and (ii)those who will be robbed of a issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. I have as much time and respect for abusers and those who cover up for them as I do for those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. I have given my email address and several have made contact with me. I doubt if I will need to post here again? I have only used this public forum as a means to get in contact with people. Any who have a desire to help and have verifiable and undeniable information that will help show what would need to be done so that the ministry in Vict/Tas is known and respected for its integrity in its handling of child abuse can contact me.waroo1977@gmail.com Who are you? a concerned member of the fellowshipWhat is your plan of use for the information you receive? I thought the last paragraph of my last post would give explanation of my purpose?What authority or power do you have to bring the ministry respect or become reformed to do what is right with CSA? Are you in communication with the WINGS group? That I have emailed Scott and that Scott has posted accordingly should answer this question?.
I expect I may be in touch with WINGS AUST members directly if things proceed as I hope they will |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 9, 2012 23:40:18 GMT -5
Any who have a desire to help and have verifiable and undeniable information that will help show what would need to be done so that the ministry in Vict/Tas is known and respected for its integrity in its handling of child abuse can contact me. waroo1977@gmail.com Thanks. Can you please take the time to answer: - once you have such information, how can you hope to do more than the rest of us? - Do you have contacts with senior workers with influence? - In which states are those workers? - you say "Any who have a desire to help". How would providing you with information help? - Finally, what is your plan for achieving "the ministry in Vict/Tas is known and respected for its integrity in its handling of child abuse"? These are not questions to trick or trip. I would love to contact you but need some feel for the above first. Best wishes. |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 9, 2012 23:43:59 GMT -5
Hey spidercam, Am I being picky. He just cant get your name right. I'm just finding that really irritating. SO precise in his questions, but cant get a simple name right!!!! Yep terribly pickie, Angie!! ;D My fault probably for picking a silly name for here |
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wanda
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Post by wanda on Feb 10, 2012 0:55:16 GMT -5
So we have an expert in our midst!
As we know the perpetrator pleaded GUILTY are you going to question that?
I am far from convinced that this person has any good intention other than to try and make the workers involved appear innocent of covering up and the guilty parties come out smelling like roses.
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Ju
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Post by Ju on Feb 10, 2012 1:16:16 GMT -5
WA I notice you missed replying to a question:
What authority or power do you have to bring the ministry respect or become reformed to do what is right with CSA?
A key issue in VICTAS is that people who speak out are ignored or discredited. The pattern of excommunication from the past and judgement creates fear amongst people to speak out. Any with influence have not taken an outward stand to prevent CSA.
Wanda you are so right... plead guilty they did, what more evidence is required???
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Ju
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Post by Ju on Feb 10, 2012 1:18:46 GMT -5
Another thought WA why not visit the WINGS discussion board and post your questions there? Of course you would have to register and a note of caution many read there who are victims of CSA so please respect that.
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Post by Greg on Feb 10, 2012 1:48:50 GMT -5
This poster has contacted me and identified themselves. Yes, they are legitimate, but I do not think they fully understand just how many people have been affected by CSA. I do believe this individual has a legitimate belief that most workers wish to deal with CSA issues correctly. The problem as I see it, is there are those senior workers who continue to 'protect' the fellowship rather than openly and honestly deal with the problem. I don't think they understand just how much harm they are causing their church. Scott c Scott has posted the above. Perhaps an earlier post of mine requires some clarification? The only people who need fear from anything I am trying to do are (i)those who have erred (i.e abusers or those who have not dealt with abuse in a correct and appropriate manner when it is or has been their responsibility to do so) and won't repent and turn from it and (ii)those who will be robbed of a issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. I have as much time and respect for abusers and those who cover up for them as I do for those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. I have given my email address and several have made contact with me. I doubt if I will need to post here again? I have only used this public forum as a means to get in contact with people. Any who have a desire to help and have verifiable and undeniable information that will help show what would need to be done so that the ministry in Vict/Tas is known and respected for its integrity in its handling of child abuse can contact me. waroo1977@gmail.com I just cannot comprehend the comment (i have as much time and respect for abusers and those who cover up for them as i do and for those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with). Unfortunately where there is a large gathering of people and beliefs somewhere sometimes along the way people get lost within themselves. To have time or respect for child abuse i find appalling as would most sane people within mainstream society. The fellowship must understand that unfortunately the abhorrent acts performed by few(or is there more)will certainly taint the work of the good. In this wonderful country Australia we live in, the judicial system allows innocence before proven guilty. A guilty plea means guilt. To respect child abuse whether the perpetrator or someone who would protect the guilty is guilt within itself whatever the belief. Lets not lose sight of what we're dealing with and thats children, the greatest gift in life a man and woman can be given. For anyone to deviate away from anything else but nurturing and protecting the wonderful gift of life (children) i dont think they deserve their place in society. Respect and time for child abuse you say. No wonder it is people like myself that are saying Why is it called the truth when really its a lie. |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 10, 2012 2:33:03 GMT -5
I just cannot comprehend the comment (i have as much time and respect for abusers and those who cover up for them as i do and for those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with). To have time or respect for child abuse i find appalling as would most sane people within mainstream society. The fellowship must understand that unfortunately the abhorrent acts performed by few(or is there more)will certainly taint the work of the good. In this wonderful country Australia we live in, the judicial system allows innocence before proven guilty. A guilty plea means guilt. To respect child abuse whether the perpetrator or someone who would protect the guilty is guilt within itself whatever the belief. Lets not lose sight of what we're dealing with and thats children, the greatest gift in life a man and woman can be given. Yes that comment of yours lost me too, WA. Are you genuinely from WA? Answer that please, yes or no. If you respect child abusers to any degree, you are not welcome anywhere near me or my family. In fact, such a comment is so far removed from society norms of decency that I wonder where you hang out.Are you perhaps a worker? (yes/no answer please) If a child abuser wants any sort of respect, they better start by honestly confessing ALL their crimes, and apologising to ALL their victims, and showing evidence of TRUE repentance. Cowardly going along to court and only confessing to the bare minimum that they can get away with to save their skin and get a lesser sentence, won't earn respect from the women here.I dare say won't please holy God either. |
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Post by coverup on Feb 10, 2012 3:19:50 GMT -5
Thanks for your replies to that appalling statement of WA's, greg and spidercam. My thoughts exactly. This guy sounds to me like a worker whose motive is to protect the system and to perpetrate the cover up of CSA that has been going on for years.
If he (I couldn't imagine a female making that comment) can make comments like that, knowing there are victims of abuse reading along, then I am afraid that he has no idea of the seriousness of abuse and how victims are impacted for life.
I would not be telling him anything.
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Ju
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Post by Ju on Feb 10, 2012 3:50:30 GMT -5
Wow I missed that comment until you pointed it out. Scary indeed.
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Post by Vicite on Feb 10, 2012 4:01:14 GMT -5
I think what wa is trying to say is that he has as much respect (little or none) for abusers and those who try and cover it up as those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. He has little or no respect for any of these types of people.
The biggest mistake wa is making is that this isn't an issue created to drag the fellowship though the mud with, this a very real and horrifying issue that the fellowship needs to address in a compassionate, caring and godly manner. It is a huge issue and so far has not been handled with anything like a Christian attitude by a mature minded ministry.
It really is awfully shameful and a very sad situation that needs something far more than a hush up.
If you think you can change the situation wa, the best of luck to you.
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Post by ca on Feb 10, 2012 4:05:11 GMT -5
Scott Ross of WINGS has kindly taken the time to make this post
spiderweb Appreciate your concern to know whether I am genuine or not. Actually I am.... and I will do as you suggest and contact the Scott you write of. If you or others wish to contact me on the email address I gave then you may do so. I understand your speculation about people being 'kicked out'. This thread has seen enough speculative posts. I'm tired of them and that is why I am doing what I am. The only people who need fear from anything I am trying to do are (i)those who have erred and won't repent and turn from it and (ii)those who will be robbed of a issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with.
I do believe this individual has a legitimate belief that most workers wish to deal with CSA issues correctly. The problem as I see it, is there are those senior workers who continue to 'protect' the fellowship rather than openly and honestly deal with the problem. I don't think they understand just how much harm they are causing their church.Scott c If a post like this from Scott does not give a viewer or poster confidence to email me then nothing will. I don't have anything more to say presently on this public forum. I will be working with those who have contacted me by email.
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Post by JO on Feb 10, 2012 4:39:25 GMT -5
If a child abuser wants any sort of respect, they better start by honestly confessing ALL their crimes, and apologising to ALL their victims, and showing evidence of TRUE repentance. Has any child abuser in the fellowship ever openly confessed and repented? It's the abusers and enablers (those who bury the truth "for the truth's sake") who have dragged the fellowship through the mud - not the child protectors amongst us. |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 10, 2012 4:57:24 GMT -5
The biggest mistake wa is making is that this isn't an issue created to drag the fellowship though the mud with, this a very real and horrifying issue that the fellowship needs to address in a compassionate, caring and godly manner. It is a huge issue and so far has not been handled with anything like a Christian attitude by a mature minded ministry. The people who are dragging our fellowship through the mud are a) the child abusive workers, b) the child-abuser elders c) the sexually immoral workers and d) the senior male workers who think they are in some sort of authority that allows them to support The Way above and beyond decency and lovingly caring for the victims. Sadly WA who now calls himself ca appears that he might be in the last category (d). If he has any respect for those who have sexually abused children, or even puts them in the same category as what he calls those "dragging the fellowship through the mud" (that's most of us on here, incidentally in his eyes) then he's seriously deficient. |
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Post by coverup on Feb 10, 2012 5:00:43 GMT -5
I think what wa is trying to say is that he has as much respect (little or none) for abusers and those who try and cover it up as those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. He has little or no respect for any of these types of people. If that is the case then he said it very poorly. You don't connect abusers of children (which is a criminal offense), with those (who in his mind) are dragging the fellowship through the mud!! What he doesn't understand is that most people who post here are frustrated and disillusioned with the way in which the workers have handled CSA. There has been no apology to victims, no acknowledgment of what EB has done and no assurance given that they have put in place measures to protect our children from perpetrators. The motives of people here are NOT to "drag the fellowship through the mud", but to seek the truth. |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 10, 2012 5:01:26 GMT -5
I think what wa is trying to say is that he has as much respect (little or none) for abusers and those who try and cover it up as those who love an issue to drag the fellowship through the mud with. He has little or no respect for any of these types of people. Thanks for the clarity Vicite. If that is so, and in his eyes that's most of us here who he considers "dragging the fellowship through the mud", then he has just equated all of us in the same category as child abusing workers. That's according to his way of thinking. THAT IS ABOUT THE MOST OFFENSIVE SUGGESTION EVER!!! |
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Ju
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Post by Ju on Feb 10, 2012 5:49:24 GMT -5
Completely agree with you NotWA - it's all about covering up and not acknowledging or helping the victims. Chilid Sexual abuse amongst the friends is rife in Tasmania - I know of at least 15 victims personally who have been abused by family members and friends. There are also cases in WA and SA and QLD of a similar nature. The workers only want to cover it all up - they encourage families not to take it further as it may 'harm the church'. So, when a worker himself does the same thing, the covering blanket is twice as thick and heavy - better to hide the sin and help the perpetrator than comfort the victim and acknowledge the pain. Reading back through this thread trying to see if there was any point to it (especially now WA has removed themself) this post by Wanda raises the question - how do we break the cycle? How can the children be protected within the fellowship? What can be done to change the pattern of hiding the sin being more important than comforting the victim? |
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Post by spiders on Feb 10, 2012 6:41:04 GMT -5
Completely agree with you NotWA - it's all about covering up and not acknowledging or helping the victims. Chilid Sexual abuse amongst the friends is rife in Tasmania - I know of at least 15 victims personally who have been abused by family members and friends. There are also cases in WA and SA and QLD of a similar nature. The workers only want to cover it all up - they encourage families not to take it further as it may 'harm the church'. So, when a worker himself does the same thing, the covering blanket is twice as thick and heavy - better to hide the sin and help the perpetrator than comfort the victim and acknowledge the pain. Reading back through this thread trying to see if there was any point to it (especially now WA has removed themself) this post by Wanda raises the question - how do we break the cycle? How can the children be protected within the fellowship? What can be done to change the pattern of hiding the sin being more important than comforting the victim? I remember reading that post from Wanda and was shocked at the extent of abuse mentioned. There seems to be a culture of abuse and sexual immorality amongst the f&w in some parts of Vic/Tas. This has gone on for so long that it is accepted as the norm and is therefore not questioned. This seems unbielveable to most of us and we wonder how it can go on without being challenged. I don't think this cycle can be changed until the workers openly acknowledge that it is a real problem. The priority needs to shift from protecting the reputation of the workers to protecting the victims. I think that this is basically a spiritual problem in that the workers need to realize that CSA and sexual immorality are sins against God to which they néed to repent of before the friends and before a Holy God. There needs to be sound biblical teaching that abuse and sexual immorality are sins that will not be tolerated. There is much spoken of this in the bible, but I have never heard it spoken of in a direct way in the context of living in today's society. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2012 8:18:39 GMT -5
Your (non) answers don't inspire much confidence. Who are you? a concerned member of the fellowship"Concerned members" of this fellowship have been working hard to get things straight on CSA. There is no reason to believe that one more unknown "concerned member" is going to be any more successful, or even make things worse. No it doesn't answer the question. The question was for "plan of use" of the information, not your purpose. Your purpose is pretty well stated: to improve the reputation of the OZ workers. No answer. No it doesn't answer the question. Scott is an individual, he is not WINGS, and I had asked if you were in communication with the WINGS group. [/color][/quote] "May be in touch" at least is something. OZ friends are "in touch" with OZ members now to little effect. If there is something about you that would inspire people to have confidence that your "being in touch" is better than anyone else's, let us know. If you could just come out and explain why your receipt of private information would do any good whatsoever in your hands, that would be very helpful. You might get somewhere. |
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Post by ts on Feb 10, 2012 9:13:27 GMT -5
Reading back through this thread trying to see if there was any point to it (especially now WA has removed themself) this post by Wanda raises the question - how do we break the cycle? How can the children be protected within the fellowship? What can be done to change the pattern of hiding the sin being more important than comforting the victim? I remember reading that post from Wanda and was shocked at the extent of abuse mentioned. There seems to be a culture of abuse and sexual immorality amongst the f&w in some parts of Vic/Tas. This has gone on for so long that it is accepted as the norm and is therefore not questioned. This seems unbielveable to most of us and we wonder how it can go on without being challenged. I don't think this cycle can be changed until the workers openly acknowledge that it is a real problem. The priority needs to shift from protecting the reputation of the workers to protecting the victims. I think that this is basically a spiritual problem in that the workers need to realize that CSA and sexual immorality are sins against God to which they néed to repent of before the friends and before a Holy God. There needs to be sound biblical teaching that abuse and sexual immorality are sins that will not be tolerated. There is much spoken of this in the bible, but I have never heard it spoken of in a direct way in the context of living in today's society. Yes, you are right. The sermon and justification is that "even a thought of immorality is the same as committing the act. If you are not innocent of thinking anything wrong, then you cannot 'cast the first stone' and that thought of immorality is like the 'beam in your own eye' that is keeping you from seeing clearly and making you condemn immorality." The "solution" that the workers tend to have(especially if the the overseers are involved in the immorality or in hiding it) is to "let God handle it" by silencing anyone who is "unforgiving" and "bitter" enough to bring accusation against one of "God's servants". The solution is simple. One strike and you are out. NO IMMORALITY in the ministry. Far better to have ONE moral worker in the work leading God's people than 1000 immoral ones. It seems the prevailing attitude is that if the immoral ones were kicked out of the work, there would not be any left to carry on the work of the gospel. Or that kicking the immoral workers out would somehow do damage to the ministry. |
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cooee
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Post by cooee on Feb 10, 2012 10:00:59 GMT -5
Can I rejoin the discussion? By doing so, I just might ignite another round of “flaming” as a weirdo poster of gossipy ludicrous baseless baseless posts. Nice one WA! (reply 387). I’m willing to take that risk.
Thanks Ram for your always clear and insightful posts. Thanks Quibbler for your post 386.
Thank you to all you dear posters who have written fearlessly and truthfully, telling exactly how it is regarding CSA and sexual immorality among the F&W fellowship in Victoria and Tasmania. Bravo for taking WA to task for his obnoxious weasel words.
I note how quickly Scott Ross endorsed the bona fides of WA. I have the greatest respect for Scott’s integrity, so I am thinking that WA is possibly a senior male worker, perhaps even an overseer, who Scott has had contact with previously.
That be as it may, reading through WA’s various posts, it could easily be concluded that he is someone who has an exalted opinion of himself, his position and his ability. He is someone endued with the fairly typical (for workers) belief that he is a fount of all wisdom and one of the few who really has the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit. Obviously he believes that those who encourage appropriate actions, truthfulness and transparency in relation to dealing with CSA matters are the “enemy” to be vehemently opposed.
It is a preposterous claim that WA levels against us that we are trying to drag the fellowship through the mud. The opposite is true; that we are trying to encourage cleansing and healing processes that will enable the fellowship to emerge from the pit of mire it is wallowing in largely because of the cancer of an evil sub –culture that is enabled to exist below the surface in the fellowship by the inaction of the leaders.
The condition of the fellowship in Victoria / Tasmania should be an absolute embarrassment to F&W everywhere. It is a disgrace and must surely be a grief to God’s Holy Spirit.
I strongly encourage guest posters to register. This can be done maintaining complete anonymity. The benefit in registering is that registered posters are able to send private emails to each other.
Keep up the good efforts everyone.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 10, 2012 10:19:15 GMT -5
While mostly true as a general statement, there are a few overseers that HAVE apologized to victims for what fellow workers have done, and have done so sincerely from their positions as overseers. I have forwarded on a few of those emails to victims of different workers, and they were greatly appreciated. These few overseers have been working to do what they can to address not just current issues that come up, but also to acknowledge past issues. Those professing folks that are aware of what has been done are greatly appreciative of their efforts in this regard. Likewise these same overseers are the ones that have gotten workers to take the MinistrySafe training, and also work with professing members of the fellowship who are in the field of counseling and in other social services in a professional manner. There needs to be a lot more of this taking place before real changes will happen on a broad scale. Scott |
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Post by alia on Feb 10, 2012 12:18:23 GMT -5
While mostly true as a general statement, there are a few overseers that HAVE apologized to victims for what fellow workers have done, and have done so sincerely from their positions as overseers. I have forwarded on a few of those emails to victims of different workers, and they were greatly appreciated. These few overseers have been working to do what they can to address not just current issues that come up, but also to acknowledge past issues. Those professing folks that are aware of what has been done are greatly appreciative of their efforts in this regard. Likewise these same overseers are the ones that have gotten workers to take the MinistrySafe training, and also work with professing members of the fellowship who are in the field of counseling and in other social services in a professional manner. There needs to be a lot more of this taking place before real changes will happen on a broad scale. Scott I have never been with the F and W. I do have occasional contact with both friends and workers. I am going to make sure that the F and W I do see face to face are aware of the Wings site etc...there are valuable resources there to protect children. If I get the brush off, it'll say a lot. |
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Post by unlogged on Feb 10, 2012 12:49:32 GMT -5
Just as you missed this analogy:
CSA perps = those who love to drag the fellowship through the mud
many of you have also missed this: those who LOVE to..
Reading through the last few pages of this thread (since conventions) it seems that many, not all, who are posting are really HAPPY to have a public place to vent a dislike for many aspects of the fellowship. And yes, that is the purpose of the site, but it doesn't generate a lot of respect for those who do so with so much venom. It brings to mind these verses:
James 3:10-11 And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right! Does a spring of water bubble out with both fresh water and bitter water?
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Post by JO on Feb 10, 2012 13:05:20 GMT -5
I think that this is basically a spiritual problem in that the workers need to realize that CSA and sexual immorality are sins against God to which they néed to repent of before the friends and before a Holy God. There needs to be sound biblical teaching that abuse and sexual immorality are sins that will not be tolerated. There is much spoken of this in the bible, but I have never heard it spoken of in a direct way in the context of living in today's society. Well said. I've heard much said over the years about goofy man-made rules (touch not, taste not, handle not), "obeying those who have the rule over you", and the importance of "fitting in" and respecting the hierarchical system. I'd love to hear more about how the very real issues that are destroying the ministry and fellowship can be dealt with going forward. Sadly, influential friends crave validation and "encouragement" but don't want to hear that there is anything wrong in their "perfect one-true-way". I have no interest in a religious veneer, an empty form of godliness. I want to experience the power of godliness in my own life, and witness a very real godliness in others around me. The head of the church is Christ, and we've lost connection with the head because an unspiritual hierarchical system has come between us and Christ. ================================================== Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2012 13:31:48 GMT -5
Just as you missed this analogy: CSA perps = those who love to drag the fellowship through the mud many of you have also missed this: those who LOVE to.. Reading through the last few pages of this thread (since conventions) it seems that many, not all, who are posting are really HAPPY to have a public place to vent a dislike for many aspects of the fellowship. And yes, that is the purpose of the site, but it doesn't generate a lot of respect for those who do so with so much venom. It brings to mind these verses: James 3:10-11 And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right! Does a spring of water bubble out with both fresh water and bitter water?Perhaps you can point out the cursing on this site. The vast majority of people just want things to be right. Why is that such a bad thing? Your post intimates that to pretend all is nice and wonderful is what is right.....but that's called hypocrisy. |
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meg1
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Post by meg1 on Feb 10, 2012 13:52:37 GMT -5
I agree Clearday.
I also believe that it takes lots of courage to openly discuss hurtful experiences. I don't believe it is LOVE of dragging anything through the mud. In my opinion the powerful need to be cared for is more likely.
I care.
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