|
|
Post by fred on Aug 16, 2010 6:12:30 GMT -5
Did our posts cross, Jesse ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 16, 2010 6:16:34 GMT -5
Another possibility is that not a few of us have already had official training and refreshers over at least a 10 year period in the normal course of our employment..... not all is as it seems.  Yes I know that but please suggest to JO there are possibly other possibilities when he says things like this; "Jesse, I must admit I don't understand why you're so protective of CSA perps and those who shelter them." What I call blamestormers are people who just churn the issue on the sidelines, they are not the victims. Meanwhile in all this churning the workers are quietly taking CSA training and getting things in order, reminds me of the arab parable; "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on." |
|
|
|
Post by spiders on Aug 16, 2010 6:24:52 GMT -5
So are we to understand that this worker from Tasmania has been removed from the work and from fellowship and cut loose into society without any professional help or counseling for his problem? The suggestion that he is living in a holiday house and has made phone contact with a victim of his abuse is truly astounding. I know workers often don't understand society's norms but I would be amazed and disgusted if this is true. I agree ebc. It seems as though the workers have no idea on how to handle this shocking case. It seems to get worse every day. Somehow the authorities need to step in and take control for both the sake of the perp and the victims. |
|
|
|
Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 16, 2010 6:27:59 GMT -5
So are we to understand that this worker from Tasmania has been removed from the work and from fellowship and cut loose into society without any professional help or counseling for his problem? The suggestion that he is living in a holiday house and has made phone contact with a victim of his abuse is truly astounding. I know workers often don't understand society's norms but I would be amazed and disgusted if this is true. I agree ebc. It seems as though the workers have no idea on how to handle this shocking case. It seems to get worse every day. Somehow the authorities need to step in and take control for both the sake of the perp and the victims. Has anyone taken this to the authorities? |
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Aug 16, 2010 6:46:36 GMT -5
My fear is that personal security and possibly undiclosed personal skeletons in the cupboard will govern direction and response more than scriptural, spiritual, moral and civic guidance. I hope that I am wrong. It seems to me that a considerable number of people innies as well as outies, are coming to this conclusion...that the workers that could do something are not because their own nose isn't clean....BUT I think the workers should lighten up on themselves...IF their dirty nose is consensual sex with another adult then that IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE THEN CSA! I think most of us can understand failures along the lines of sexual behaviours as long as those behaviours are consensual...that is fornication, it really is only a crime against one's self and IF their partner was/is married then it becomes adultery....but neither one traumatizes a tiny child or a child who does not have the maturity to handle what happens...... I don't excuse workers having consensual sex over and over again, but a one time slip up is one thing and they should move on with repentance and purpose to do better...However even IF that one time slipup creates a baby I do believe that worker should quit the work get a job and support that child IF the two feel like they couldn't stand marriage together....but I really think they should be forced to marry. |
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Aug 16, 2010 6:48:04 GMT -5
The Australian ministry proved it could be decisive when it expelled a faithful woman for marrying the love of her life, a divorced and remarried couple, and a man whose Sunday AM message was not one-true-wayish enough.I don' t remember the man's excommunication...what was his testimony that wasn't one-true-wayish enough? |
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Aug 16, 2010 6:49:24 GMT -5
Another possibility is that not a few of us have already had official training and refreshers over at least a 10 year period in the normal course of our employment..... not all is as it seems. The way Jesse put that seemed aimed at provoking adverse hysteria against what he calls blame stormers. He's pulling in the opposite direction. A considerable number of us on TMB have had training and experience with CSA within our title and/or job description...so Jesse you throwing out that blanket accusation that only ONE on TMB took that CSA training is another opposing blamestorming, don't you realize that? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 7:04:06 GMT -5
The Australian ministry proved it could be decisive when it expelled a faithful woman for marrying the love of her life, a divorced and remarried couple, and a man whose Sunday AM message was not one-true-wayish enough. , what English translation bible is more honorific than King James? Jesusonly, there is ONE non-exclusive belief: ALL WAYS LEAD TO GOD. And there are TWO exclusive beliefs: 1 - ONE WAY LEADS TO GOD 2 - A CERTAIN NUMBER OF WAYS LEAD TO GOD. Which? And if number 2, how many ways? nb Sexual misconduct in scripture would include (in my own order of severity) Rape Child molestation Carnal relations with same sex or animals Consensual but illegitimate sex Divorced and remarriage All are referred to in scripture. Definitely child sex is right up there, but all are covered under the rubric of "fornication." |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 7:42:49 GMT -5
My fear is that personal security and possibly undiclosed personal skeletons in the cupboard will govern direction and response more than scriptural, spiritual, moral and civic guidance. I hope that I am wrong. It seems to me that a considerable number of people innies as well as outies, are coming to this conclusion...that the workers that could do something are not because their own nose isn't clean....BUT I think the workers should lighten up on themselves...IF their dirty nose is consensual sex with another adult then that IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE THEN CSA! I think most of us can understand failures along the lines of sexual behaviours as long as those behaviours are consensual...that is fornication, it really is only a crime against one's self and IF their partner was/is married then it becomes adultery....but neither one traumatizes a tiny child or a child who does not have the maturity to handle what happens...... I don't excuse workers having consensual sex over and over again, but a one time slip up is one thing and they should move on with repentance and purpose to do better...However even IF that one time slipup creates a baby I do believe that worker should quit the work get a job and support that child IF the two feel like they couldn't stand marriage together....but I really think they should be forced to marry. CSA aside, the other sexual failings of the "perfect way" also breach high levels of trust and perception amongst the liety. However, without excusing such conduct I do have a huge amount of understanding for those who succumb. The pressures for some in living an unnatural lifestyle must be immense. When one considers the inflexible 2x2 system against the more varied ways of the 1st century church, it is no wonder the valves of some "pop!" It is time to review Irvine's experiment against what really happened after the Shores of Gallilee and make appropriate changes. |
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Aug 16, 2010 7:55:35 GMT -5
CSA aside, the other sexual failings of the "perfect way" also breach high levels of trust and perception amongst the liety. However, without excusing such conduct I do have a huge amount of understanding for those who succumb. The pressures for some in living an unnatural lifestyle must be immense. When one considers the inflexible 2x2 system against the more varied ways of the 1st century church, it is no wonder the valves of some "pop!"WINGS has been asked on several occasions if we would expand our site to include other types of sexual abuse and cover-ups. We have declined to do so, as our stated objective is: Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance to every individual on every aspect of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA), and to shed light on the prevalence of these abuses within the fellowship. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the group in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs when CSA is minimized and or ultimately ignoredSince WINGS has come about, we HAVE seen change within the the fellowship in some areas. There have been overseers willing to openly and honestly (and scripturally) address the issue of CSA. The recent 'sensitivity' training sessions given by an outside source was a huge step to take in dealing with this issue. Acknowledging that there is a need for training from professionals and actually hiring outside people to perform that training is something that I had never heard of before. The key part of WINGS objective is pretty much summed up in: Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the group in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs when CSA is minimized and or ultimately ignoredWe are (and will be) seeing this in the Vic/Tas issue. Because it wasn't properly addressed, I believe it is going to have a far reaching impact on the fellowship there. Scott
|
|
|
|
Post by pinky on Aug 16, 2010 8:17:36 GMT -5
Scott,
Do you mind telling us who has apparently retired in the last few days?
|
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Aug 16, 2010 8:32:34 GMT -5
Scott, Do you mind telling us who has apparently retired in the last few days? Not openly on the board, although I can send you a PM with the name. We are trying to follow the Australian law on this, which does not allow an individual to be openly named if they are being investigated. There are some pretty stringent privacy laws regarding that. Their press is greatly limited in this regard it sounds like. While the TMB may not fall under this law, because we have a lot of Vic/Tas folks here, we want to make sure that nothing is done to jeopardize any investigation. Scott |
|
|
|
Post by pinky on Aug 16, 2010 8:35:20 GMT -5
Ok, ta.
So the 'retired' guy is being investigated also.
What a mess, when will this end. Sigh.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 16, 2010 12:45:39 GMT -5
Another possibility is that not a few of us have already had official training and refreshers over at least a 10 year period in the normal course of our employment..... not all is as it seems. The way Jesse put that seemed aimed at provoking adverse hysteria against what he calls blame stormers. He's pulling in the opposite direction. A considerable number of us on TMB have had training and experience with CSA within our title and/or job description...so Jesse you throwing out that blanket accusation that only ONE on TMB took that CSA training is another opposing blamestorming, don't you realize that? I'd suspect there's a lot of parents that haven't had CSA training and parents are one of the primary lines of CSA defense. Even though it's called "MinistrySafe" it is applicable to parents but the training required the purchase of a yearly module so I bought one and was hoping mainly parents would be interested in the training. It was after that I ran across the darkness2light site where single training sessions can be purchased, that training is probably a little more geared towards parents. Do any of you want to see the site a few of us were working on? It's pretty simple, and not done, and on my family web site so I do have access to the server logs.  |
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Aug 16, 2010 13:15:40 GMT -5
|
|
eh?
Senior Member
Posts: 714
|
Post by eh? on Aug 16, 2010 13:24:05 GMT -5
Do any of you want to see the site a few of us were working on? It's pretty simple, and not done, and on my family web site so I do have access to the server logs. Sure, PM me with the link, Thanks |
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Aug 16, 2010 14:31:14 GMT -5
Do any of you want to see the site a few of us were working on? It's pretty simple, and not done, and on my family web site so I do have access to the server logs. Sure, PM me with the link, Thanks me, too, please |
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 16, 2010 15:38:09 GMT -5
I just got PM; "MinistrySafe now has single-purchase training for $15. It doesn't appear to include access to all of the other items available with the module (recommended policies and screening forms).
Link to Single Use:
www.ministrysafe.com/training_options.html" |
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Aug 16, 2010 20:18:30 GMT -5
The Australian ministry proved it could be decisive when it expelled a faithful woman for marrying the love of her life, a divorced and remarried couple, and a man whose Sunday AM message was not one-true-wayish enough. , what English translation bible is more honorific than King James? Jesusonly, there is ONE non-exclusive belief: ALL WAYS LEAD TO GOD. And there are TWO exclusive beliefs: 1 - ONE WAY LEADS TO GOD 2 - A CERTAIN NUMBER OF WAYS LEAD TO GOD. Which? And if number 2, how many ways? nb Sexual misconduct in scripture would include (in my own order of severity) Rape Child molestation Carnal relations with same sex or animals Consensual but illegitimate sex Divorced and remarriage All are referred to in scripture. Definitely child sex is right up there, but all are covered under the rubric of "fornication." Bert, Bert, Bert. Are my kind not at least deserving of our own category? Since man + man = 2 souls and man + animal = 1 soul, surely my people's sin is the more severe? Tsk, tsk, tsk -- what to do with you... But on a serious note, how can you put rape above child molestation? |
|
|
|
Post by JO on Aug 16, 2010 21:23:48 GMT -5
Bert, there is no honorific English bible translation. I believe ONE way leads to God and that is Jesus Christ himself. If your religious system is a substitute for Jesus Christ then you are not sharing the same faith those first workers had. This thread is about child sexual abuse, so enough of that. Rape is a horrible crime, but CSA is much worse. Especially when the perps are family members or highly esteemed role models like workers. How can little children be expected to explain to family that the ministry their lives revolve around has been molesting them? The fact that CSA is not at the top of your list reaveals your lack of understanding. Do you think workers would be better to concentrate less on "Divorce and remarriage" which is at the bottom of your list, and more on the issues that are found amongst their own ranks, namely: "Child molestation" and "Carnal relations with the same sex" and "Consensual but illegitimate sex"? Instead, Australian workers have been expelling from fellowship people who married outsiders and people who are divorced and remarried. Is it any wonder that the friends are expecting accountability regarding CSA? The Australian ministry proved it could be decisive when it expelled a faithful woman for marrying the love of her life, a divorced and remarried couple, and a man whose Sunday AM message was not one-true-wayish enough. , what English translation bible is more honorific than King James? Jesusonly, there is ONE non-exclusive belief: ALL WAYS LEAD TO GOD. And there are TWO exclusive beliefs: 1 - ONE WAY LEADS TO GOD 2 - A CERTAIN NUMBER OF WAYS LEAD TO GOD. Which? And if number 2, how many ways? nb Sexual misconduct in scripture would include (in my own order of severity) Rape Child molestation Carnal relations with same sex or animals Consensual but illegitimate sex Divorced and remarriage All are referred to in scripture. Definitely child sex is right up there, but all are covered under the rubric of "fornication." |
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 16, 2010 21:31:49 GMT -5
My MinistrySafe module works. The per session cost is $5, I'll pick that up for any who want to go through it. If you can trust me I'll need a first name, last name, and e-mail address. The training is online, fast internet is preferrable, and the training link is sent in an e-mail to you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 21:52:43 GMT -5
You have lost me there, somewhere. Gene I am not passing judgment on you. I am noting what the bible states on same-sex liaisons. I put Rape above Child Molestation because of what I understand to be the trauma. Both are bad, but I have sisters who harangued me over this one  Rape often involves extreme violence, sometimes murder. Rape sometimes involves pregnancy Rape can often shatter a victim's life completely. As I see it - child sex seems more subtle and malevolent. I don't know. Same long term effects most likely, but the initial act seems different, somehow. And the perpetrators seem more psychologically disturbed, rather than outright criminal as in many rapists. Child sexers seem to exploit - rapers seem to just Forcibly Take. Please don't quote me as supporting child sex. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 22:04:18 GMT -5
Jesusonly. New thread required for this.
Getting way too far Off Topic.
I will create "Honorific Bibles" thread
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Aug 16, 2010 22:34:25 GMT -5
Jesusonly. New thread required for this. Getting way too far Off Topic. I will create "Honorific Bibles" thread Thanks bert, appreciated. |
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Aug 17, 2010 3:22:35 GMT -5
You have lost me there, somewhere. Gene I am not passing judgment on you. I am noting what the bible states on same-sex liaisons. I put Rape above Child Molestation because of what I understand to be the trauma. Both are bad, but I have sisters who harangued me over this one Rape often involves extreme violence, sometimes murder. Rape sometimes involves pregnancy Rape can often shatter a victim's life completely. As I see it - child sex seems more subtle and malevolent. I don't know. Same long term effects most likely, but the initial act seems different, somehow. And the perpetrators seem more psychologically disturbed, rather than outright criminal as in many rapists. Child sexers seem to exploit - rapers seem to just Forcibly Take. Please don't quote me as supporting child sex. So Bert you believe force is more traumatic than emotional manipulation? Most wouldn't disagree. Which is more destructive, physical or psychological abuse? Most would say psychological. Child sexual abuse is rape, whether full intercourse takes place of not. The younger a person is when abuse occurs the more destructive the effects. Childhood sexual abuse is more likely be by someone who the abusers knows and trusts, adult rape is more often by a stranger. Again the effects of the former are severe with long term effects of trust issues. The childs developing mind is vulnerable. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 3:55:50 GMT -5
I suspect that if this thread was about "Worker rape" and I suggested rape wasn't as bad a child abuse - plenty would be on the attack.
|
|
|
|
Post by JO on Aug 17, 2010 6:42:05 GMT -5
OK Bert, I'll admit that it wasn't until CSA came very close to me that I realized how life-destroying CSA is.
I expect more youth suicides are CSA-linked than we realize.
Yes, rape is an horrendous crime.
But CSA victims are younger and more poorly placed to cope, and the perps are usually close family or trusted role models.
How can children tell parents and family that the ministry their lives revolve around is abusing them sexually?
Usually, children bottle it up until they're adults and something triggers a reliving of the past.
CSA is evil. If this fellowship can't protect its little ones it has lost its moral compass and doesn't deserve to survive.
Mark 10:13-16 People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Aug 17, 2010 6:56:52 GMT -5
You have lost me there, somewhere. Gene I am not passing judgment on you. I am noting what the bible states on same-sex liaisons. I put Rape above Child Molestation because of what I understand to be the trauma. Both are bad, but I have sisters who harangued me over this one Rape often involves extreme violence, sometimes murder. Rape sometimes involves pregnancy Rape can often shatter a victim's life completely. As I see it - child sex seems more subtle and malevolent. I don't know. Same long term effects most likely, but the initial act seems different, somehow. And the perpetrators seem more psychologically disturbed, rather than outright criminal as in many rapists. Child sexers seem to exploit - rapers seem to just Forcibly Take. Please don't quote me as supporting child sex. So Bert you believe force is more traumatic than emotional manipulation? Most would disagree. Which is more destructive, physical or psychological abuse? Most would say psychological. Child sexual abuse is rape, whether full intercourse takes place of not. The younger a person is when abuse occurs the more destructive the effects. Childhood sexual abuse is more likely be by someone who the abusers knows and trusts adult rape is more often by a stranger., Again the effects of the former are severe with long term effects of trust issues. The childs developing mind is vulnerable. Child sexual abuse IS rape...it is all about control. Rape in any category is all about control and anger issues. And acquaintance rape is MORE OFTEN then stranger rape. 73% of all rapes are acquaintance rape....http://www.rainn.org/statistics 1 in every 6 women will be raped at some time in life....1 in 33 men will be raped....every 2 mins. someone in the US will be sexually assaulted, and 60% of all rapes go unreported and I think we can pretty safely bet that the most of those 60$ unreported ones are CSA. |
|
