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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 15:25:08 GMT -5
Forgive me Geoff. I keep forgetting to factor in the recent changes.
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Post by emy on Jan 22, 2010 17:22:34 GMT -5
The biggie that follows that is this. What are works? Most professing/post professing people throughout the world will agree that within the F&W's fellowship, "works" are understood to be receiving the workers, attending every meeting and mission possible, convention, etc. In mainstream Christianity "works" are generally regarded as being in fellowship with and loving likeminded believers (not far removed from the F&W'S), but also largely loving our neighbour in need. In my experience, works among f&w has meant to live the life of a Christian, however you have learned, interpreted, or been Spirit-led for that to be. Meetings of any kind would be an encouragement and inspiration to do that. It only stands to reason that as we grow older, we understand more of what it means to be Christian - as Christ said, "Follow me." And Peter said, "For God called you to do good, even if it means suffering, just as Christ suffered for you. He is your example, and you must follow in his steps." (1 Peter 2:21 NLT) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 18:25:56 GMT -5
The biggie that follows that is this. What are works? Most professing/post professing people throughout the world will agree that within the F&W's fellowship, "works" are understood to be receiving the workers, attending every meeting and mission possible, convention, etc. In mainstream Christianity "works" are generally regarded as being in fellowship with and loving likeminded believers (not far removed from the F&W'S), but also largely loving our neighbour in need. In my experience, works among f&w has meant to live the life of a Christian, however you have learned, interpreted, or been Spirit-led for that to be. Meetings of any kind would be an encouragement and inspiration to do that. It only stands to reason that as we grow older, we understand more of what it means to be Christian - as Christ said, "Follow me." And Peter said, "For God called you to do good, even if it means suffering, just as Christ suffered for you. He is your example, and you must follow in his steps." (1 Peter 2:21 NLT) Okay Ems baby, make up your mind. You can either have the above or you can have your porno books and erotic, lustful thoughts, but you ain't getting both. Either follow your quote above or sink your head into the library of licentiousness. The choice is yours! |
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Post by emy on Jan 22, 2010 20:03:35 GMT -5
I suppose I should read the Jessica Trapp books before I go any farther with this discussion. But even Christians at times come short, yes sin.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 4:47:21 GMT -5
Ems, even the best of us have dark secrets, but I will defend the professing women whom I know by saying that I am very confident that to a woman they would be very disappointed at a professing woman having written the book I have in my possession and would feel they had been very badly let down in view of the standards they try to uphold in both their public and private lives.
I do not condemn the author. Perhaps I am no more honourable myself? Except in one aspect. The name of my Lord and Master is used in several places in a cursing and blasphemous way. A thousand alternatives could have been used, but just as the devil infiltrates the best of us, here he is at it again to get his point across. This above all else I find especially offensive and abhorrent and only on this point would I attempt to excel myself above the writer, for I am all too aware of my own filthy rags!
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Post by Geoff on Jan 23, 2010 10:17:16 GMT -5
"Forgive me Geoff. I keep forgetting to factor in the recent changes. "
I don't think thats the point. I haven't noticed much change in the last 30 years, but then my difficulty is not having spent those years in one country, so have lost some continuity.
But I haven't noticed much change here in 15 years. Guess we circulated in different circles?
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Post by snow on Jan 23, 2010 11:11:00 GMT -5
Ems, even the best of us have dark secrets, but I will defend the professing women whom I know by saying that I am very confident that to a woman they would be very disappointed at a professing woman having written the book I have in my possession and would feel they had been very badly let down in view of the standards they try to uphold in both their public and private lives. I do not condemn the author. Perhaps I am no more honourable myself? Except in one aspect. The name of my Lord and Master is used in several places in a cursing and blasphemous way. A thousand alternatives could have been used, but just as the devil infiltrates the best of us, here he is at it again to get his point across. This above all else I find especially offensive and abhorrent and only on this point would I attempt to excel myself above the writer, for I am all too aware of my own filthy rags! I'm not sure why, but this thought came to mind when I read your post. The analogy of Good Cop (god) and Bad cop (devil) came to mind in that both of them are just trying to get to the truth in the matter. Maybe the devil is not "wicked" as religions seem to believe, but merely there as the other end of the duality which rules the physical realm. Maybe the devil can point the way to truth too. Sometimes we learn more from experiencing something negative than something positive. God would be the positive and devil the negative, but both able to teach us somethings we need to know about the reality of things.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 11:34:22 GMT -5
"Forgive me Geoff. I keep forgetting to factor in the recent changes. " I don't think thats the point. I haven't noticed much change in the last 30 years, but then my difficulty is not having spent those years in one country, so have lost some continuity. But I haven't noticed much change here in 15 years. Guess we circulated in different circles? Okay, please explain what workers currently preach as being "works." When was the last time you heard them preach about and encourage the fellowship to engage themselves in good deeds towards our fellow man (neighbour). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 11:39:12 GMT -5
Ems, even the best of us have dark secrets, but I will defend the professing women whom I know by saying that I am very confident that to a woman they would be very disappointed at a professing woman having written the book I have in my possession and would feel they had been very badly let down in view of the standards they try to uphold in both their public and private lives. I do not condemn the author. Perhaps I am no more honourable myself? Except in one aspect. The name of my Lord and Master is used in several places in a cursing and blasphemous way. A thousand alternatives could have been used, but just as the devil infiltrates the best of us, here he is at it again to get his point across. This above all else I find especially offensive and abhorrent and only on this point would I attempt to excel myself above the writer, for I am all too aware of my own filthy rags! I'm not sure why, but this thought came to mind when I read your post. The analogy of Good Cop (god) and Bad cop (devil) came to mind in that both of them are just trying to get to the truth in the matter. Maybe the devil is not "wicked" as religions seem to believe, but merely there as the other end of the duality which rules the physical realm. Maybe the devil can point the way to truth too. Sometimes we learn more from experiencing something negative than something positive. God would be the positive and devil the negative, but both able to teach us somethings we need to know about the reality of things. In general, we learn more from bad experiences than good ones, normally through correction. Life is a constant process of learning and experiences of the bad shape us. This has made me think how we are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. Perhaps iniquity shapes us through bad experiences. We learn what is good more through experiencing the bad. |
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Post by snow on Jan 23, 2010 15:29:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure why, but this thought came to mind when I read your post. The analogy of Good Cop (god) and Bad cop (devil) came to mind in that both of them are just trying to get to the truth in the matter. Maybe the devil is not "wicked" as religions seem to believe, but merely there as the other end of the duality which rules the physical realm. Maybe the devil can point the way to truth too. Sometimes we learn more from experiencing something negative than something positive. God would be the positive and devil the negative, but both able to teach us somethings we need to know about the reality of things. In general, we learn more from bad experiences than good ones, normally through correction. Life is a constant process of learning and experiences of the bad shape us. This has made me think how we are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. Perhaps iniquity shapes us through bad experiences. We learn what is good more through experiencing the bad. So the "bad" is absolutely necessary and a blessing in disguise instead of something terrible? It helps us grow faster? |
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Post by emy on Jan 23, 2010 16:25:19 GMT -5
In general, we learn more from bad experiences than good ones, normally through correction. Life is a constant process of learning and experiences of the bad shape us. This has made me think how we are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. Perhaps iniquity shapes us through bad experiences. We learn what is good more through experiencing the bad. So the "bad" is absolutely necessary and a blessing in disguise instead of something terrible? It helps us grow faster? It's the old "view from the mountains; fruit in the valleys" analogy! |
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Post by snow on Jan 23, 2010 17:51:30 GMT -5
So the "bad" is absolutely necessary and a blessing in disguise instead of something terrible? It helps us grow faster? It's the old "view from the mountains; fruit in the valleys" analogy! Never heard of that one!!  |
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Post by Geoff on Jan 24, 2010 7:56:32 GMT -5
"When was the last time you heard them preach about and encourage the fellowship to engage themselves in good deeds towards our fellow man (neighbour). "
December 2009.
On a seperate line the encouragement to donate towards of several charities in aid of Haiti earthquake victims. That's not the same as the organised collection for the Tsunami, but the effect is as good. DEC seems a sensible option in this respect.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 8:16:43 GMT -5
"When was the last time you heard them preach about and encourage the fellowship to engage themselves in good deeds towards our fellow man (neighbour). " December 2009. On a seperate line the encouragement to donate towards of several charities in aid of Haiti earthquake victims. That's not the same as the organised collection for the Tsunami, but the effect is as good. DEC seems a sensible option in this respect. If such things took place then this is a major step in the right direction and one which we must all welcome. For many years my conscience was troubled by the lack of regard for the genuine Christian message to love our neighbour in need. It was always, helping people naturally only helped them in this world. Better to help them spiritually which is eternal. There's a lot of wrong thinking in that and it was a mindset that was part of the fellowship for many decades. The great fear was that if you helped someone naturally, you had met their needs and they wouldn't seek any spiritual bread. That was worker mentality, not the message of Jesus. I'm sure as younger workers mature and come to understanding the true Christian message, then charitable gestures as you suggest will become more common place. For one thing an enlightened fellowship will look for it more and more and see the ommission of such as highly erroneous and will cause them to see where such non-actions stand in the light of God's word. |
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moline
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Post by moline on Jan 25, 2010 22:39:02 GMT -5
emmy wrote
Maybe you can comment on what Paul meant when he said, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: " (2 Tim. 4:7)
I will answer this as I see it
we are saved by grace thru faith in jesus finnished work on the cross
Some confuse THE GIFT of salvation thru Jesus sacrifice where he took our sins on his shoulders , endured the Father turning his face away as he bore my sins [and yours] and they are forever in the sea of forgetfullnes
This gift of eternal salvation is often confused with the rewards that we might also gain , God is no mans debtor so he will justley reward a faithfull servant . This is a separate issue than our Salvation thru the sacrifice of Jesus , and BTW if you read the old king James version and also some other interesting language interpretations , King James says the we are saved by the Faith ''of'' jesus not the Faith'' IN'' Jesus If we follow that interpretation it was the fact that Jesus knew [ and he did] that his blood would save me even before I was born.
I only need the Faith to believe that
I personally believe the latter to be the case
I also believe that as God is ''No ones debtor'' that I can be rewarded also. The extent of this reward is not known but one can be sure that God will reward a faithfull service
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Post by emy on Jan 25, 2010 23:58:54 GMT -5
... Some confuse THE GIFT of salvation thru Jesus sacrifice where he took our sins on his shoulders , endured the Father turning his face away as he bore my sins [and yours] and they are forever in the sea of forgetfullnes This gift of eternal salvation is often confused with the rewards that we might also gain , God is no mans debtor so he will justley reward a faithfull servant . ... I also believe that as God is ''No ones debtor'' that I can be rewarded also. The extent of this reward is not known but one can be sure that God will reward a faithfull service If that is true, then what was the lesson Jesus intended in Matt. 20 about the laborers who agreed for 1 penny a day? All received the same whether they worked one hour or the whole day. If our works gain us reward, how can that be so? |
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Jan 26, 2010 4:02:22 GMT -5
... Some confuse THE GIFT of salvation thru Jesus sacrifice where he took our sins on his shoulders , endured the Father turning his face away as he bore my sins [and yours] and they are forever in the sea of forgetfullnes This gift of eternal salvation is often confused with the rewards that we might also gain , God is no mans debtor so he will justley reward a faithfull servant . ... I also believe that as God is ''No ones debtor'' that I can be rewarded also. The extent of this reward is not known but one can be sure that God will reward a faithfull service If that is true, then what was the lesson Jesus intended in Matt. 20 about the laborers who agreed for 1 penny a day? All received the same whether they worked one hour or the whole day. If our works gain us reward, how can that be so? I have always thought that in the parable of the workers in the vineyard, the 'reward' was the gift of salvation itself. All the workers recieved the same reward (salvation) regardless of how long they had laboured in the vineyard. |
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moline
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Post by moline on Jan 26, 2010 4:22:53 GMT -5
Thats right Otto
Salvation is the same for all .That parable was about salvation
Salvation is a gift only to those that believe of course, whether we believe in our youth or on our deathbed it is the same for all , The theif on the cross is a prime example his salvation came as he recognised who Jesus was . He did no works
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Post by emy on Jan 26, 2010 19:54:09 GMT -5
If that is true, then what was the lesson Jesus intended in Matt. 20 about the laborers who agreed for 1 penny a day? All received the same whether they worked one hour or the whole day. If our works gain us reward, how can that be so? I have always thought that in the parable of the workers in the vineyard, the 'reward' was the gift of salvation itself. All the workers recieved the same reward (salvation) regardless of how long they had laboured in the vineyard. But those laborers earned their wages. Salvation cannot be earned. And several gospels quote JEsus saying, the first shall be last and the last shall be first, as does that parable. |
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Jan 27, 2010 6:45:18 GMT -5
I agree that salvation cannot be earned emy, it's just that the parable makes no sense to me if it is referring to something other than salvation. There would seem to be no justification for the same pay being made if it is referring to rewards other than salvation.
I'm not sure what 'the fisrt shall be last and the last shall be first' means exactly.
What do you think it means?
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moline
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Post by moline on Jan 27, 2010 8:11:56 GMT -5
the parable relates to our salvation. The same for all whether we accept christ in our youth or on our deathbead
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 12:25:57 GMT -5
the parable relates to our salvation. The same for all whether we accept christ in our youth or on our deathbead Being me, I would take that a step further. The parable relates to our salvation. The same for "all" whether we accept christ or "not". |
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Jan 27, 2010 14:18:33 GMT -5
How's that work then snow? John 3:36 says 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.'
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moline
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Post by moline on Jan 27, 2010 18:08:58 GMT -5
Hi Snow
Jesus died that ALL may be saved , yes, BUT only those that accept and believe will be
They are those that the parable refers to , THEY WORKED IN THE VINEYARD
If we dont accept we have no part
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 22:22:24 GMT -5
How's that work then snow? John 3:36 says 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.' Well I have a very different belief than you do. I don't see god as judgmental or wrathful, so that's why I don't see why anyone would not be alright in an afterlife. Makes a difference what we belief when we interpret things. |
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2010 22:25:15 GMT -5
Hi Snow Jesus died that ALL may be saved , yes, BUT only those that accept and believe will be They are those that the parable refers to , THEY WORKED IN THE VINEYARD If we dont accept we have no part Oh well then, if that is what you believe, I guess there will be a lot of people in hell. Doesn't seem right to me, but that's okay. |
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Jan 28, 2010 14:30:04 GMT -5
How's that work then snow? John 3:36 says 'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.' Well I have a very different belief than you do. I don't see god as judgmental or wrathful, so that's why I don't see why anyone would not be alright in an afterlife. Makes a difference what we belief when we interpret things. That's fine snow, that's your choice; so long as you understand that it's yourself you believe, and not the bible. |
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2010 16:17:12 GMT -5
Well I have a very different belief than you do. I don't see god as judgmental or wrathful, so that's why I don't see why anyone would not be alright in an afterlife. Makes a difference what we belief when we interpret things. That's fine snow, that's your choice; so long as you understand that it's yourself you believe, and not the bible. Absolutely. The bible for me is just another book. There are many holy scriptures written down through the ages of which the bible is one. I like the Vedas myself. But I have my own unique understanding of what god is and that's okay for me. |
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