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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 13:58:26 GMT -5
No Cooney = no church in the home!
No Cooney = Bert might be worshipping in a temple made by hands!
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Post by JO on Dec 23, 2009 14:07:40 GMT -5
Bert does worship in a building made with hands...
But does Bert worship in spirit and in truth?
Or in form and tradition?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 14:36:50 GMT -5
Buildings made with hands are fine.
Temples built with hands is the issue the New Testament attends to.
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Post by september on Dec 23, 2009 14:54:29 GMT -5
Paul - Okay, tomorrow we go to Macedonia! Bad companions - Who says so? Paul - I had a vision! Bad companions - Well, that's YOUR vision! YOU attend to it. This was Cooney. I knew the people who knew this man, and they sometimes spoke of him. I'm not quite clear on what you mean Bert. Is Cooney represented by Paul or the "bad companions"? As I mentioned before, being guided by the Spirit is subjective. We can't know that Cooney was or was not being guided. We can't know if the workers today are being guided or not. We do know there are areas in countries that they will not venture into, areas of cities where they'll not go. Is the Spirit keeping them from these souls? Are they beyond the love of God? Whatever one may think of EC, he didn't seem to have the same inhibitions about venturing into places that were middle class, white collar areas. He had no inhibitions about standing on a street corner telling of the Gospel (even he did mention his own sacrifice) and it's beyond question that he wanted the Gospel to reach all corners by whatever means available to him. EC was by no means perfect, he was not always right in what he said or did, he may have been difficult company at times but there is no doubt what drove him and it wasn't self-glorification. He sincerely wanted God's Kingdom extended and he was genuinely puzzled that his fellow workers couldn't trust the Spirit to guide either them or him, preferring to drift into a structured ministry which as we all know, has now become as organised as any other mainstream church. I'm not arguing that some organisation is wrong but I do see why EC was puzzled. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 23, 2009 15:10:41 GMT -5
Buildings made with hands are fine. Temples built with hands is the issue the New Testament attends to. Actually Bert, those passages you refer to do not say anything about meeting in temples, nor worshipping in temples. What those passages say is: Acts 7:
48"However, the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says:
49" 'Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
Acts 17:
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.Are there other passages that say that we are not to worship or gather in temples (or barns or tents or submarines....) The point of the passages are that God does not LIVE in anything made by man. He can't be confined to a building. Witness at Athens
The prevailing philosophies of the West's post-Christian era--secular humanism's scientific empiricism and the New Age pantheistic type of postmodernism--are remarkably similar to the Epicureanism and Stoicism Paul encountered at Athens. Paul's speech becomes a model for how to witness to the educated post-Christian mind, even as it spoke to Theophilus and his fellow seekers with their first-century pre-Christian minds.Proclaiming the Gospel with Integrity (17:16-21)
When Paul arrived at Athens in the province of Achaia, he came to an anomaly. Though its population was no more than ten thousand and it had been reduced to poverty and submission by its war with Rome (146 B.C.), it was granted the status of a free city in view of its illustrious past. "Accordingly, although the time of her greatest glory was gone forever, Athens could still boast of her right to be called a great center of philosophy, architecture, and art"--and, we might add, religion (Madvig 1979b:352). In fact, what assaulted Paul's spirit was the ubiquitous idolatry (Livy History of Rome 45.27.11). Guarding the entrance to houses and shrines was a square pillar with the head of Hermes, the god of roads, gateways and the marketplace. What Paul met in Athens was "a forest of idols" (Wycherley 1968:619).
Paul is more than greatly distressed, for he experiences a paroxysm in his spirit, a provocation of anger or grief or both, because the glory due to God alone is being given to idols. The Lord reacted the same way to idolatry in Israel (Deut 9:7, 18, 22; Ps 106:28-29; Is 65:2-3; compare Is 42:8), and so should we. Any paraphernalia of false worship should provoke in us such grieving anger that we, jealous for the glory of God and his Christ, reach out and share the good news, which includes a call to repentance (Stott 1990:279).Paul reaches out in witness not only in the synagogue (17:2, 10; 18:4) but also in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. "The Athenian Agora [marketplace] was the center of the public and business life of the city, and people met there every day to learn the latest news and to discuss all manner of subjects. . . . Temples and government buildings, shops and offices, and altars and statuary filled the Agora, and stoas and colonnades gave protection against the summer sun and the winter rain and cold" (Finegan 1981:128). John Stott observes that the equivalent today is "a park, city square or street corner, a shopping mall or marketplace, a `pub,' neighborhood bar, cafe, discotheque or student cafeteria, wherever people meet when they are at leisure" (1990:281). We, like Paul, must go to where the people are, and to those settings where serious discussion of ideas, even religious ideas, is natural and expected.www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Witness-AthensScott  |
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 23, 2009 19:16:37 GMT -5
Paul - Okay, tomorrow we go to Macedonia! Bad companions - Who says so? Paul - I had a vision! Bad companions - Well, that's YOUR vision! YOU attend to it. This was Cooney. I knew the people who knew this man, and they sometimes spoke of him. Read Patrica Roberts book, The Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney, Bert. She knew him too, she was 6 years old when her parents left meetings and joined with Cooney when he was out out. She would know him as well as anyone don't you think? She lives near where he was born and the street corners where he preached. The first convention and meeting house is also near her. |
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Post by Rob O on Dec 23, 2009 19:38:36 GMT -5
Temples built with hands is the issue the New Testament attends to. This was addressed in one of my articles and Scott has posted on it. The issue was never temples made with hands as though something was intrinsically wrong with them. The context of the passage is quite clear. God cannot be confined to a building. He is not an anthropomorphic being like the Gentile gods. Paul's point is rhetorical. How can God be contained in a temple when as he quotes, "In Him we live and move and have our being"? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 19:55:53 GMT -5
Believer, we lived near to him too, many years ago. He didn't really fit in with us in many ways.
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Post by JO on Dec 24, 2009 1:23:01 GMT -5
Apart from not fitting in to a man-made religious system, how else did he not fit in Bert?
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 2:51:01 GMT -5
from Bert on page 1:
One was about a third world lady who moved to America, and later wrote to a worker still laboring in her country to say she understood what the cost of ministry was because she could see what that man left behind.
And that reminds her of what Jesus left behind.
Isn't that nice?
===================================================
That IS nice Bert.
But there is so much talk on this board about differences that are not so important. The biggest problems with 2x2ism is:
1. they don't believe (at least not in the USA) in the assurance of salvation by faith: repenting of sins, and trusting in and accepting God provision for cleansing our sins (Jesus spilled blood), and then following Jesus example works of serving others and extending the Kingdom - (Learning to live like Christ while reaching out in His Name)
2. they don't believe in the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost as the 3 persons of God.
3. they are exclusive, not accepting the whole church of God, claiming they are the church exclusively.
Workers do not understand the Bible!
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 2:56:56 GMT -5
Jesus is the only Good Shepherd. All others who follow Jesus are not - all of the rest of us are stuck in the eye with logs, are depraved, and otherwise prone to go astray.
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 3:39:49 GMT -5
2x2s (in the USA) don't worship Jesus. Christians worship Him because they know who He is! God came to earth in the person of Jesus - He provided the sacrifice, just like he provided the substitute sacrifice for Abraham.
Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD,And there is no savior besides Me.
Matthew 1:23
" BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, " GOD WITH US."
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 3:43:33 GMT -5
Isaiah 45:20-22 (New International Version)
20 "Gather together and come;
assemble, you fugitives from the nations.
Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,
who pray to gods that cannot save.
21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.
22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 3:47:56 GMT -5
Jesus is the only one who was perfect, and therefore the only one able to be an atonement for our sins. The sacrifice of all the martyrs and workers and monks put together could not be what Jesus was to mankind - the Lamb, the Way, Truth, Life, our Saviour - He is God Himself!
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 3:48:46 GMT -5
And it was all done in LOVE!
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 11:41:39 GMT -5
Amen.
Nathan, you are no longer a 2x2 then. You are a believer, 1x1
You should worship and rejoice with the Christian church if you are not.
Have not workers and friends been rejected and cast out who believe?
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mocha
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Post by mocha on Dec 24, 2009 13:05:19 GMT -5
I know a worker who believes, but does not preach it, she does talk it though in safe places.
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Post by JO on Dec 24, 2009 13:56:36 GMT -5
Its not as cut and dried as you claim Nathan. For every verse you quote that points to Jesus=God I can quote several that refer to God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ as distinct.
1 John 1:3
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
2 John 1:3
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
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Post by JO on Dec 24, 2009 14:48:46 GMT -5
~~ Ok... let me ask you this.. What form/Being/spirit did Jesus have before He was begotten by the Father and the Holy Spirit? I don't know. I am not saying that Jesus is the Father, or they are One Person. They are ONE in Nature of their Unity, Purpose, and in Spirit.
On that we can agree. |
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 24, 2009 15:17:42 GMT -5
I know a worker who believes, but does not preach it, she does talk it though in safe places.  Let them do some digging for themselves so the Lord Jesus can reveal more about Himself to them. Once they receive a revelation then nobody can take or remove that truth from them.
I have a list of workers' names are preaching of Christ's deity or Godhead openly these days than before.By a 2x2 I guess you mean you agree with a 2x2 style ministry but as you have told us for years that you have not attended a Sunday morning meeting for years and only occasionally if ever attend a Gospel meeting. You give work for a reason for not attending meetings. As you can see you are at odds with Bert and others who do go to meetings on this board about the deity of Christ. |
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Post by JO on Dec 25, 2009 1:18:35 GMT -5
~~ Jesus couldn't have existed before Abraham was born and before the foundation in the form/spirit of a man but in God form/spirit because flesh and blood can not exist in eternal realm. Do you know of anyone who ever said Jesus existed in the form/spirit of a man before Abraham was born and before the foundation of the world? I'm sure I haven't. Jesus was never referred to as God the Son in scripture, and Mary was never referred to as the Mother of God. |
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Post by JO on Dec 25, 2009 13:58:10 GMT -5
Which form/spirit do you believe Jesus had when he was with the Father in heaven before the foundation of the world?
Was it in the form of God? Yes or No. I'd like to hear your explanation of your answer. Thanks, in advance. Jesus was the son of God in human form. He was the son of God in spirit form before the foundation of the world. By definition, a son always emanates from a father. Your son carries your DNA and he may bear your image, your likeness. When someone sees your son they might say "I've seen Nathan in his son". But your son will never be the same being as you. John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. |
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Post by september on Dec 25, 2009 20:07:12 GMT -5
I was speaking to someone today that knows much about the early days of the fellowship and also knew EC well. I asked about the Trinity; did the early workers believe in the Trinity and did EC too believe? This person said the terminology was never used but that the early workers and EC certainly did believe that Jesus was God made flesh, not just simply the Son of God. This person also believes that the current fellowship teaching in Ireland is that of the Trinity and has ever been thus.
I wonder is this an Irish thing in that every schoolchild has the Trinity concept explained when learning about St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland?
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Post by sharon on Dec 25, 2009 21:30:46 GMT -5
I was speaking to someone today that knows much about the early days of the fellowship and also knew EC well. I asked about the Trinity; did the early workers believe in the Trinity and did EC too believe? This person said the terminology was never used but that the early workers and EC certainly did believe that Jesus was God made flesh, not just simply the Son of God. This person also believes that the current fellowship teaching in Ireland is that of the Trinity and has ever been thus. I wonder is this an Irish thing in that every schoolchild has the Trinity concept explained when learning about St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland? It seems to me that when WI and EC were excommunicated then all the things that were held to when they all begin the workership and then the fellowship within those first days in Ire/Scot that the workers bent over backwards to change that so that the "essence" of either man would not be apparent in the fellowship....which just magnifies that the fellowship is certainly only "men's commandments made doctrine." JMO |
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Post by september on Dec 26, 2009 8:04:32 GMT -5
I was speaking to someone today that knows much about the early days of the fellowship and also knew EC well. I asked about the Trinity; did the early workers believe in the Trinity and did EC too believe? This person said the terminology was never used but that the early workers and EC certainly did believe that Jesus was God made flesh, not just simply the Son of God. This person also believes that the current fellowship teaching in Ireland is that of the Trinity and has ever been thus. I wonder is this an Irish thing in that every schoolchild has the Trinity concept explained when learning about St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland? It seems to me that when WI and EC were excommunicated then all the things that were held to when they all begin the workership and then the fellowship within those first days in Ire/Scot that the workers bent over backwards to change that so that the "essence" of either man would not be apparent in the fellowship....which just magnifies that the fellowship is certainly only "men's commandments made doctrine." JMO To an extent perhaps but this person is quite adamant that the Trinity is still taught in Ireland. That means it was never deviated from in Ireland. That's why I wonder is the non-acceptance of the Trinity a N. American/Antipodean thing? Or are we in Ireland too brain-washed by our early teaching in schools of St. Patrick's demonstration of the Trinity that we fail to notice when the workers demote Jesus to just plain old son of God? |
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Post by sharon on Dec 26, 2009 10:42:44 GMT -5
I know a worker who believes, but does not preach it, she does talk it though in safe places.
I have a list of workers' names are preaching of Christ's deity or Godhead openly these days than before.Who? Besides LS? |
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Post by sharon on Dec 26, 2009 10:46:50 GMT -5
~~ Jesus couldn't have existed before Abraham was born and before the foundation in the form/spirit of a man but in God form/spirit because flesh and blood can not exist in eternal realm. Do you know of anyone who ever said Jesus existed in the form/spirit of a man before Abraham was born and before the foundation of the world? I'm sure I haven't. Jesus was never referred to as God the Son in scripture, and Mary was never referred to as the Mother of God. Uhhh, Mary's own words declares both, don't they? Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. |
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Post by sharon on Dec 26, 2009 10:49:51 GMT -5
It seems to me that when WI and EC were excommunicated then all the things that were held to when they all begin the workership and then the fellowship within those first days in Ire/Scot that the workers bent over backwards to change that so that the "essence" of either man would not be apparent in the fellowship....which just magnifies that the fellowship is certainly only "men's commandments made doctrine." JMO To an extent perhaps but this person is quite adamant that the Trinity is still taught in Ireland. That means it was never deviated from in Ireland. That's why I wonder is the non-acceptance of the Trinity a N. American/Antipodean thing? Or are we in Ireland too brain-washed by our early teaching in schools of St. Patrick's demonstration of the Trinity that we fail to notice when the workers demote Jesus to just plain old son of God? I think that which children are taught as very young schoolchildren often win the day when there may be questions later on that crop up. Also one cannot deny the divinity/deity of Jesus when one reads the Bible, even as I mentioned in another post, even Mary declared her saviour as: Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. |
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Let them do some digging for themselves so the Lord Jesus can reveal more about Himself to them. Once they receive a revelation then nobody can take or remove that truth from them.