Bill Carroll's opinion of Ed Cooney

[CherieKropp]

Just added to TTT:

An Address On Sunday Evening 16th December, 1950 During Preparations For Convention By W.C.C.

Then, "we preach not ourselves." We do not wish to exalt ourselves or our own name. That was the lamentable and dreadful sin of Edward Cooney. We had to come to the definite belief after many years of patience that he preached himself. His message was to exalt his own name, which has been put upon God's people and which God's people reject and resent. "We preach Christ Jesus the Lord and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake.” You ministers for Christ’s sake; why am I here, why are these brothers here, why are these sisters here, because we want to be your servants for Jesus’ sake.

[sharon]

I would wonder if all those beginning workers are now spinning in their graves at the preaching of the homeless ministry? eh?

[Deleted]

Sounds like a bit of a pun Sharon: workers "spinning" in their graves. Frankly, I suspect Bill Carroll is spinning the Cooney story here a bit.

What is fascinating about the Cooney expulsion is that the most common accusation they had against him (false humility, pointing to himself) is one of the most significant problems we see amongst the same group who expelled him. I suppose it's true that the faults we see in others are what we identify within ourselves.

[Scott Ross]

I suppose it's true that the faults we see in others are what we identify within ourselves.

I think that is common among us all isn't it?

It's the old 'log in the eye' syndrome. We all want to point out that other people's sins are worse than ours, so we concentrate on their sins because we recognize them, and ignore our own.

Of course that doesn't pertain to me.... No log in my eye.... (more like a whole logging truck full of logs.....)

Scott

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2009 10:51:45 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

I suppose it's true that the faults we see in others are what we identify within ourselves.

I think that is common among us all isn't it?

It's the old 'log in the eye' syndrome. We all want to point out that other people's sins are worse than ours, so we concentrate on their sins because we recognize them, and ignore our own.

Of course that doesn't pertain to me.... No log in my eye.... (more like a whole logging truck full of logs.....)

Scott

Of course it's completely true for all of us. True humility will help us see that.

[guitaway]

Dec 22, 2009 10:51:45 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

I suppose it's true that the faults we see in others are what we identify within ourselves.

I think that is common among us all isn't it?

It's the old 'log in the eye' syndrome. We all want to point out that other people's sins are worse than ours, so we concentrate on their sins because we recognize them, and ignore our own.

Of course that doesn't pertain to me.... No log in my eye.... (more like a whole logging truck full of logs.....)

Scott

Scott, are you trying to be a better sinner than I am? Are you trying to exalt your sinning and make yourself the chiefest of sinners?
It's not fair.
So, I am just going to claim a whole forest full of logs in my eye.
How do you like that huh?
Have a good one Scott.
Happy Holidays.
JMS

[samantha]

How extraordinary to ban anyone associated with a worker! How extreme to ban and excommunicate a fellow worker for a difference of opinion! Is this why so much whispering and talking goes on "behind the scenes"in 2x2ism? It always seemed so devious to me hearing the opposite views aired but never openly before the elders and head guys.

[JO]

Dec 22, 2009 10:37:40 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Sounds like a bit of a pun Sharon: workers "spinning" in their graves. Frankly, I suspect Bill Carroll is spinning the Cooney story here a bit.

What is fascinating about the Cooney expulsion is that the most common accusation they had against him (false humility, pointing to himself) is one of the most significant problems we see amongst the same group who expelled him. I suppose it's true that the faults we see in others are what we identify within ourselves.

I grew up being taught that Eddie Cooney was "proud of his humility".

History seems to indicate Eddie's "error" was encouraging his brethren to return to the simplicity and humility of their beginnings. As the movement evolved into a religious organization Eddie failed to "fit in".

In 1928, an overseer preacher, Wilson Reid, who often visited our home told us that Edward Cooney, who was then in America was coming home, and warned us that he was giving trouble out there and not to have fellowship with him. George Walker and others called on the same mission of warning. My husband and others suggested having a meeting on Bible lines with elders and have Edward Cooney there too, so that both sides would be heard by them to judge. A meeting was arranged in Irvinestown but Edward Cooney was not there. My husband and others then decided to keep an open mind until Edward Cooney came back and hear his side. They thought it very strange to hear that Edward would change and preach false doctrine inside a few years because we knew that God had used him in a great measure in different parts of England and Ireland. Wilson Reid and many in fellowship with us never came back to our home after making the decision to hear Edward Cooney's side.

When Edward Cooney did come back, we could not see any change in him; he was as sincere and ardent as ever, preaching the same simple gospel as we heard at the beginning. A meeting of old workers was held in Clankilvorah, an open home near Lurgan, Co. Armagh, among them being T. Elliott, Jack Carroll, Wm. Gill (deceased) etc. J. Carroll refused to listen or have fellowship with Edward Cooney who was also there. Thomas Elliott stood by Edward Cooney at that time because he saw an unrighteous act being done towards him. To the sorrow of many, those who kept their homes open to Edward Cooney became outcast from their brethren, and in that way the division started.

I should mention here that William Irvine (deceased) professed through Rev. John McNeill (Presbyterian) Scotland some years before going forth to preach on apostolic lines. Many of the older ones in fellowship for a long time felt there was a drift in Testimony towards organization and compromise with world's way, away from simplicity of Christ, before division took place, and we then understood that the trouble Edward Cooney was charged with causing in America was his anxiety as an elder, to warn his brethren of the falling away from early teaching.

By Sara West
Rossahilly, Ballinamallard, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland

www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/cooneyed.php

[guitaway]

Usually it just gets put under the category of "they got the wrong spirit" and had to get tossed out.

Samantha Said :

Is this why so much whispering and talking goes on "behind the scenes"in 2x2ism? It always seemed so devious to me hearing the opposite views aired but never openly before the elders and head guys.

It is kind of odd alright.
And yet no one has the guts to step right up in meeting and talk about these things openly as you say.
Suppose at a convention some person was to stand up and give their testimony and talk about all these things "openly" or make a reading from the TTT website.

Would they be ushered out? Would it cause a big rumpus in the meeting?

What if two or more people in row talked about these things the way they want to see them represented. Right there in front of a whole bunch of 2x2 folks?

So far no one that I know of has done this. Instead they have to whisper about what they wish they had the courage to say.

Would they be killed? Would they be asked not to come back?

Likely the later.

If so, and people in the Truth group are unhappy in it they could just stand up in a convention meeting and state their opinions about it.

If they got asked to leave and then it happened again and again at different conventions right in front of everyone, then either questions would get answered openly, or everyone would know what happened to the persons bold enough to speak.

Are there enough bold people in it to do this and make things change to how they want to see them?

Currently excommunications of folks are usually not done openly.

If they were asked to "shut the heck up" right in a convention meeting or got escorted out of it for saying what they want to, then it would be done openly and everyone would know what was said and how it was handled.

None of this "getting a talking to off to the side and being asked to leave" when no one else is present to witness it.

[september]

It is true that EC "promoted" himself in his later years. He was preaching in the Diamond in Enniskillen towards the end of his life and a former worker (one of the Barton sisters but I can't recall which) admonished him publicly saying that he spoke of Eddie Cooney's sacrifice in 1900 and he's still doing it today. She advised him to preach Jesus' sacrifice, it being the only one that mattered. EC was inclined to mention from time to time the family business that he had rejected in order to preach the Gospel and particularly around Enniskillen, just exactly what he had sacrificed would have been well known.

[sharon]

Dec 22, 2009 13:09:58 GMT -5 @guitaway said:

Usually it just gets put under the category of "they got the wrong spirit" and had to get tossed out.

Samantha Said :

Is this why so much whispering and talking goes on "behind the scenes"in 2x2ism? It always seemed so devious to me hearing the opposite views aired but never openly before the elders and head guys.

It is kind of odd alright.
And yet no one has the guts to step right up in meeting and talk about these things openly as you say.
Suppose at a convention some person was to stand up and give their testimony and talk about all these things "openly" or make a reading from the TTT website.

Would they be ushered out? Would it cause a big rumpus in the meeting?

What if two or more people in row talked about these things the way they want to see them represented. Right there in front of a whole bunch of 2x2 folks?

So far no one that I know of has done this. Instead they have to whisper about what they wish they had the courage to say.

Would they be killed? Would they be asked not to come back?

Likely the later.

If so, and people in the Truth group are unhappy in it they could just stand up in a convention meeting and state their opinions about it.

If they got asked to leave and then it happened again and again at different conventions right in front of everyone, then either questions would get answered openly, or everyone would know what happened to the persons bold enough to speak.

Are there enough bold people in it to do this and make things change to how they want to see them?

Currently excommunications of folks are usually not done openly.

If they were asked to "shut the heck up" right in a convention meeting or got escorted out of it for saying what they want to, then it would be done openly and everyone would know what was said and how it was handled.

None of this "getting a talking to off to the side and being asked to leave" when no one else is present to witness it.

A very young and promising ex-worker/outie stood to his feet in a spec. mtg. in a major city(over 200 there) and spoke his piece...but most of his speech was an apology for having preached the wrong things, giving the wrong information etc. He was allowed his time and it was perhaps more lengthy then others of his age group would have taken, and after he finished he and his wife departed. The young brother worker who was more or less in charge of that string of spec. mtgs. followed him out and spoke to him a few mins.

A few months later that bro. worker and I spoke about that experience, I could tell that what the ex bro. worker had said bothered this other bro. very much. That young brother now has gone home wrestling with issues but definitely is not against God at this point.

I think if one or two more would stand and say what they had on their heart in this regard, that somethings would have to be started to be addressed. The workers have their heads in the sand more now then ever, the hemorrhage of members is gaining momentum, the homes are becoming less and less accessible to the workers. What do these workers think to gain by not addressing that which is ailing the fellowship?

I'm distraught with such lack of the appearance of caring from the workers that might have the power to change things!

[JO]

Dec 22, 2009 15:40:04 GMT -5 @sharon said:

I think if one or two more would stand and say what they had on their heart in this regard, that somethings would have to be started to be addressed. The workers have their heads in the sand more now then ever, the hemorrhage of members is gaining momentum, the homes are becoming less and less accessible to the workers. What do these workers think to gain by not addressing that which is ailing the fellowship?

I'm distraught with such lack of the appearance of caring from the workers that might have the power to change things!

What I am seeing Sharon, is that workers are allying themselves with system-focused people more than ever. While there are one or two homes of sycophants open to the workers in a district they don't seem to care about the concerns of those who they consider "not hearty".

Often the "not hearty" are the more spiritually minded and Christ-focused folk. The center of gravity has been steadily moving away from the spiritually-minded and towards the system-minded, resulting in a spiritual "dumbing-down" of the fellowship.

The shrinking numbers are one indicator that should be a concern, but perhaps even more devastating for the future of the fellowship is this spiritual "dumbing-down".

As you have rightly pointed out a number of times Sharon, the fellowship was founded on a rejection of the spiritual lack in mainstream Christianity. We are coming full circle.

I wonder if in years to come workers will look back and wonder "what happened"?

Or will those who are left be so system-minded that they won't even notice the spiritual lack?

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2009 9:37:03 GMT -5 @sharon said:

I would wonder if all those beginning workers are now spinning in their graves at the preaching of the homeless ministry? eh?

No Sharon, not preaching a homeless ministry, but observing it.

[Deleted]

Often the "not hearty" are the more spiritually minded and Christ-focused folk. The center of gravity has been steadily moving away from the spiritually-minded and towards the system-minded, resulting in a spiritual "dumbing-down" of the fellowship.

Jesusonly, what are you trying to say? That the workers didn't, or stopped, visiting you at some point?
I thought the "less hearty" were those who habitually missed meetings? Often these are the one of most concern to workers.

[Deleted]

We have heard of the Ministry without a home. How about a home without a ministry. It has happened and it's in the Bible!

[Deleted]

When Edward Cooney did come back, we could not see any change in him; he was as sincere and ardent as ever

... certainly not what I heard from those who knew this man.

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2009 16:58:44 GMT -5 @ram said:

We have heard of the Ministry without a home. How about a home without a ministry. It has happened and it's in the Bible!

And homes without bibles, and homes without God. Some say that the current American generation is the first "post Christian generation."

[september]

Dec 22, 2009 17:02:11 GMT -5 bert said:

When Edward Cooney did come back, we could not see any change in him; he was as sincere and ardent as ever

... certainly not what I heard from those who knew this man.

And the many people that I know that knew the man (even those that are in the fellowship) concur with what Mrs. West said. You've got to remember too, that the Wests weren't particularly keen on EC personally so I'd be inclined to give weight to her statement. The woman that nursed him on his deathbed (now "professing") may have subsequently doubted the doctrine of the Cooneyites but she didn't doubt his sincerity or zeal.

I wonder what Moline's impressions were?

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2009 17:03:39 GMT -5 bert said:

Dec 22, 2009 16:58:44 GMT -5 @ram said:

We have heard of the Ministry without a home. How about a home without a ministry. It has happened and it's in the Bible!

And homes without bibles, and homes without God. Some say that the current American generation is the first "post Christian generation."

Judas's habitation was to be left desolate!

[september]

Dec 22, 2009 16:57:54 GMT -5 bert said:

I thought the "less hearty" were those who habitually missed meetings? Often these are the one of most concern to workers.

Perhaps of the most concern, but it has to be said, workers in general have a very odd way of outwardly exhibiting their concerns. Of course they likely spend hours on their knees praying for the souls of the less hearty, but in my observations in Ireland, they are much less inclined to visit those do miss meetings.

That said, the most system-minded are considered to be the most spiritually-minded. What hope is there for the future of the fellowship spiritually if there is no recognition of the difference?

[JO]

Dec 22, 2009 16:57:54 GMT -5 bert said:

Often the "not hearty" are the more spiritually minded and Christ-focused folk. The center of gravity has been steadily moving away from the spiritually-minded and towards the system-minded, resulting in a spiritual "dumbing-down" of the fellowship.

Jesusonly, what are you trying to say? That the workers didn't, or stopped, visiting you at some point?
I thought the "less hearty" were those who habitually missed meetings? Often these are the one of most concern to workers.

Bert, this is not about me. I can take it or leave it regarding worker visits. If they come I make them welcome, if they don't then that's fine by me.

My concern is not about me. My concern is for the future of the fellowship. I would like nothing more than to see it prosper spiritually.

People habitually miss meetings when they don't have a good reason for attending. If the meeting is wrapped up in system, then system-minded folks will attend with bells on thinking they are earning eternal life. However Christ-focused spiritually-minded people are not drawn to system-focused meetings and tend to not show up as regularly.

[jason]

Cooney was excommunicated for good reason, in my view. He seemed more interested in self-promotion and grand gestures than proclaiming the Lord.

[JO]

Dec 22, 2009 17:43:46 GMT -5 @september said:

Dec 22, 2009 16:57:54 GMT -5 bert said:

I thought the "less hearty" were those who habitually missed meetings? Often these are the one of most concern to workers.

Perhaps of the most concern, but it has to be said, workers in general have a very odd way of outwardly exhibiting their concerns. Of course they likely spend hours on their knees praying for the souls of the less hearty, but in my observations in Ireland, they are much less inclined to visit those do miss meetings.

That said, the most system-minded are considered to be the most spiritually-minded. What hope is there for the future of the fellowship spiritually if there is no recognition of the difference?

Exactly September.

What I don't understand is if workers do in fact pray for the "less hearty", then why isn't it more evident that they actually care about them?

And why are many of the workers so reluctant to discuss the issues?

[JO]

Dec 22, 2009 18:30:39 GMT -5 jason said:

Cooney was excommunicated for good reason, in my view. He seemed more interested in self-promotion and grand gestures than proclaiming the Lord.

Is that the spin the victors put on it?

[Deleted]

System? You talking about Jesus' System?
Let me tell you about "system speak"

At the last convention I attended I wrote down how many times anything remotely resembling "system" were mentioned. Okay?

Two (2)

total references to Jesus (Messiah, Son of God, The Lamb, He, Him, His etc..)

Approximately fifteen hundred (1500)

One was about a third world lady who moved to America, and later wrote to a worker still laboring in her country to say she understood what the cost of ministry was because she could see what that man left behind.
And that reminds her of what Jesus left behind.

Isn't that nice?

"System" No, just telling the Truth. Jesus and Paul, for instance, said much the same.

Now, read through the Gospels and see how many "system" verses there are. Haven't counted them yet, but I reckon two or three dozen.

Now read through the Epistles and count the same. I think you could find hundreds.

Why won't you read about the "system" in the mainstream churches? Because they repudiate it.

The people I know who left the meetings are those who simply loved the world too much.

[Deleted]

Yes Nathan. I have also read that it was his home (habitation). A field is hardly a habitation, but an area of land, field or whatever may contain a home. People don't normally habituate in a field!

Another thing, if Judas bought that piece of land with his 30 pieces of silver, how come so soon after Christ was betrayed, he threw the money on the floor at the feet of the Priests etc? Can't eat your cake and still have it.

[Deleted]

Remember Nathan that William Irvine considered the world to be his field. He spent most of his professing years sailing round the world to keep an eye on those running his allotments. Cooney too believed in the one field principle and should go where the spirit led him.

[christopher]

Dec 22, 2009 18:24:33 GMT -5 JO said:

Dec 22, 2009 16:57:54 GMT -5 bert said:

Jesusonly, what are you trying to say? That the workers didn't, or stopped, visiting you at some point?
I thought the "less hearty" were those who habitually missed meetings? Often these are the one of most concern to workers.

Bert, this is not about me. I can take it or leave it regarding worker visits. If they come I make them welcome, if they don't then that's fine by me.

My concern is not about me. My concern is for the future of the fellowship. I would like nothing more than to see it prosper spiritually.

People habitually miss meetings when they don't have a good reason for attending. If the meeting is wrapped up in system, then system-minded folks will attend with bells on thinking they are earning eternal life. However Christ-focused spiritually-minded people are not drawn to system-focused meetings and tend to not show up as regularly.

Just to relate my experience, but I would have to say that I know a good number of very Christ-focused individuals who attend meeting all the time. It is evident in their testimony and in their lives. They don't seem to worship a system to me, but believe that their system of fellowship helps to keep them focused on Jesus, and is an integral part of their lives in terms of getting closer to Him.

** I have some time tonight to jump on before getting on the road tomorrow. I may have a few minutes in the morning, hopefully to at least catch up on new posts (many I've already fallen behind on.) I'll have limited Internet access for a few days, and enjoying time with some of my friends, so I'm likely going to get behind here a bit. I'll catch up when I can. Love ya all...have a safe week and a happy holiday!
-Christopher