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Post by september on Dec 22, 2009 19:11:20 GMT -5
I wonder why EC didn't have an Itinerant ministry like he did when he was a 2x2 worker after he was excommunicated in 1928? because without a continuation ministry his group is dead and within the next 10 yrs. [/color][/quote] He did. And there have been similar numbers added to the Cooneyite movement in Ireland as there has to the F&W fellowship in the same time frame.
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Post by september on Dec 22, 2009 19:19:40 GMT -5
His ministry was similar to what he left. I only know of one name for certain (August Gustavsson) but there were more. I know someone who EC asked to go to Australia with him in the work but the person declined.
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 22, 2009 19:26:41 GMT -5
Cooney was excommunicated for good reason, in my view. He seemed more interested in self-promotion and grand gestures than proclaiming the Lord. Seemed like the other workers were jealous of Cooney. Seemed like he didn't want the power that the others were wanting to have by being put over people. He wanted to remain freelance and itinerant not be over people in a certain area. Good on Cooney for doing what they set out to do and not being willing to compromise. Of course they are going to talk bad of him if he did not tow the line and do what they wanted him to do. Bad things are said about many people who leave.
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 22, 2009 19:31:46 GMT -5
His ministry was similar to what he left. I only know of one name for certain (August Gustavsson) but there were more. I know someone who EC asked to go to Australia with him in the work but the person declined. ~~ Thanks.
Someone wrote: With a companion from a Norwegian Seaman’s mission, August Gustafson, he continued his worldwide evangelistic visits, refusing to be limited to a specific “field” or region. Partisans of Cooney were called “Cooneyites”, while the majority party were sometimes called “Reidites” in Ireland because Wilson Reid was the overseer there at the time.
Is this the same August Gustafson? Do you know if August Gustafson a 2x2 worker?
So EC was mostly the group only preacher until his death? How would he expect his group to carry on after his death without him or any preacher to carry on?August joined Cooney after he left. Cooney's group did carry on after he died. His group still meets today. Cooney no doubt did not think he was the only one. Salvation did not just depend on Cooney preaching, there were and still are many who preach the Gospel with or without Cooney. Why is spreading the Gospel dependent on Cooney having other preachers?
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Post by september on Dec 22, 2009 19:32:09 GMT -5
His ministry was similar to what he left. I only know of one name for certain (August Gustavsson) but there were more. I know someone who EC asked to go to Australia with him in the work but the person declined. ~~ Thanks. So EC was mostly the group only preacher until his death? How would he expect his group to carry on after his death without him or any preacher?He was the principle preacher, yes, but not the only one. As I said, there were others, I just don't have names. As for the Cooneyite movement continuing after EC's death, perhaps God is going to raise someone up again to lead it forth once more? We don't know but the truth is, the Cooney movement is very similar to what the F&W practise and believe today and for what its worth, they look a whole lot more kindly on the F&W (Reidite movement) than vice versa. I wonder what that says about the F&W?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 19:34:22 GMT -5
Cooney was excommunicated for good reason, in my view. He seemed more interested in self-promotion and grand gestures than proclaiming the Lord. Seemed like the other workers were jealous of Cooney. Seemed like he didn't want the power that the others were wanting to have by being put over people. He wanted to remain freelance and itinerant not be over people in a certain area. Good on Cooney for doing what they set out to do and not being willing to compromise. Of course they are going to talk bad of him if he did not tow the line and do what they wanted him to do. Bad things are said about many people who leave. Crap
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 22, 2009 19:37:27 GMT -5
Seemed like the other workers were jealous of Cooney. Seemed like he didn't want the power that the others were wanting to have by being put over people. He wanted to remain freelance and itinerant not be over people in a certain area. Good on Cooney for doing what they set out to do and not being willing to compromise. Of course they are going to talk bad of him if he did not tow the line and do what they wanted him to do. Bad things are said about many people who leave. ~~ I don't think so. EC developed similiar attitude as WI I can do whatever I want spirit and you can't stop me. He was continuing what they had always done. They were the ones who wanted to make the changes not Cooney.
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 22, 2009 19:39:13 GMT -5
Seemed like the other workers were jealous of Cooney. Seemed like he didn't want the power that the others were wanting to have by being put over people. He wanted to remain freelance and itinerant not be over people in a certain area. Good on Cooney for doing what they set out to do and not being willing to compromise. Of course they are going to talk bad of him if he did not tow the line and do what they wanted him to do. Bad things are said about many people who leave. Crap Go and wash your mouth out with soap, Bert. Words like that come from naughty children, not grown men or women.
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Post by september on Dec 22, 2009 19:52:19 GMT -5
EC's behaviour wasn't terribly strange at all. He simply believed in going where the Spirit guided and who are we to say the Spirit wasn't guiding? We see workers today claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit and their behaviour is not just outrageous but seemingly unheeded by their head worker. Just because we can't see the culmination of God's work, that's not to say that God is not working. God does not work to our time. God might still be working through the Cooneyite movement; the mantle may not be upon the F&Ws as so many assume.
As for EC being inclined to promote his own sacrifice, we have workers in Ireland doing the very same thing today. It is a trap that human nature finds difficult to avoid and while many admirably do, there are those that fall (with some enthusiasm it has to be said) into it.
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Post by JO on Dec 22, 2009 19:55:07 GMT -5
Yes, Cooney was out of control Nathan.
He lacked respect for man's control, but he had a great respect for God's control.
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Post by september on Dec 22, 2009 19:57:07 GMT -5
was it because they believed they were the oldies among them all. We started this and we can do or change whatever we want or like mentality. [/color][/quote] I like that Nathan. WI, EC et al, did start the fellowship.
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 22, 2009 21:44:47 GMT -5
He was continuing what they had always done. They were the ones who wanted to make the changes not Cooney. ~~ WI and EC were getting out of control with their strange behaviors.... was it because they believed they were the oldies among them all. We started this and we can do or change whatever we want or like mentality.What strange behaviors did EC display or are you saying the movement was strange from the beginning and the workers that followed were trying to correct the strangeness? How was EC out of control by simply carrying on what they believed was started by God. EC did not want to change anything - he didn't want the changes.
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Post by JO on Dec 22, 2009 22:29:02 GMT -5
~~ EC's behavior, thinking, Matthew 10 healing, raising the dead, cleanse the lepers to the Jews and children of Israel, reservation about women apostles/workers before he was excommunicated. History tends to favor the victors Nathan.
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Post by JO on Dec 22, 2009 22:46:07 GMT -5
So EC was mostly the group only preacher until his death? How would he expect his group to carry on after his death without him or any preacher to carry on? [/color][/quote] Eddie Cooney never wanted to start another group Nathan. He hoped for reconciliation, but his brethren didn't want him. Jesus also came to his own, and his own received him not.
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Post by JO on Dec 22, 2009 22:52:24 GMT -5
History tends to favor the victors Nathan. ~~ Can you explain what you meant by history tends to favor the victors? Thanks.When someone gets excommunicated from a group, the group hears the executioners story - not the story of the one who was kicked out. Unlike the Alberta saga, the outcasts had no internet on which to explain what happened from their side. Those who received Cooney into their homes were also excommunicated, so very few people heard his side of the story. Some were upset about his ousting, but reluctantly turned him away to avoid getting booted themselves. Cooney referred to those in fellowship with him as "the outcasts". It never was a rival group, just a few poor souls who were denied fellowship for dubious reasons.
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Post by JO on Dec 22, 2009 23:31:22 GMT -5
Eddie Cooney never wanted to start another group Nathan. He hoped for reconciliation, but his brethren didn't want him. Jesus also came to his own, and his own received him not. ~~ Remember WI and Faith Mission group? once WI departed from FM he, Eddie Cooney, George Walker, and 500 workers form or follow the New Testament Itinerant ministry and fellowship. So, EC knew he had started his own group different from the 2x2s.
It was better for EC to break away from the 2x2s and do what he felt right for him.
I believe if EC had truly reconciled the overseers would have welcome him back open arms. I will say they would do that with WI also.Eddie Cooney followed the itinerant ministry model closer than the overseers did Nathan. He didn't have an organization supporting him. How would you feel if the overseers suggested it would be better for you to break away from the 2x2s and form your own group? It might happen, because I doubt you have the overseers permission to operate an internet ministry.
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 23, 2009 1:17:30 GMT -5
As JO said, Cooney did not start his own group. He was put out of the group and continued preaching. He was not interested in forming a group. There were these who supported him and meet together in their own meetings much like those in the Alberta situation meet. Cooney just continued preaching himself. There were those such as Fred Wood who preached with him but they were not a part of any organization. Just freelance preachers.
The 2x2s started based on their interpretation of Matthew 10. Edward prayed for one person to be healed based on Matthew 10. Millions of people pray for God to heal - nothing unusual with that.
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Post by jason on Dec 23, 2009 1:50:12 GMT -5
Seemed like the other workers were jealous of Cooney. Seemed like he didn't want the power that the others were wanting to have by being put over people. He wanted to remain freelance and itinerant not be over people in a certain area. Good on Cooney for doing what they set out to do and not being willing to compromise. Of course they are going to talk bad of him if he did not tow the line and do what they wanted him to do. Bad things are said about many people who leave. Crap Could not have said it better myself. ;D
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 23, 2009 1:56:05 GMT -5
As JO said, Cooney did not start his own group. He was put out of the group and continued preaching. He was not interested in forming a group. There were these who supported him and meet together in their own meetings much like those in the Alberta situation meet. Cooney just continued preaching himself. There were those such as Fred Wood who preached with him but they were not a part of any organization. Just freelance preachers. The 2x2s started based on their interpretation of Matthew 10. Edward prayed for one person to be healed based on Matthew 10. Millions of people pray for God to heal - nothing unusual with that. ~~~ Yes, Matthew 10 was the beginning of the 12 apostles first official gospel mission sent by Jesus to the lost sheep House of Israel. EC mistakes was he tried to be a healer and a miracle worker like the 12 apostles. The friends and the workers lost their faith in EC after he failed his faith healing session.
It was amazing that Adam H. the overseer gave EC a chance to prove his healing ability before others.
If EC and the ex-2x2 workers had stop preaching in the name of Jesus then there wouldn't be anyone who wanted to follow them at all. I wonder why they didn't have any young workers starting or following their pattern of ministry? What kind ministry did they have anyway? The friends did not lose their faith in Edward through him trying to heal. He was put out when he was in a meeting of other workers and would not accept being put over an area. The word spread that he was no longer welcome because of this meeting. Praying healing for someone is scriptural. The 2x2s are patterned on Matthew 10 so you are saying the 2x2s are all wrong.
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Post by jason on Dec 23, 2009 2:08:13 GMT -5
As much as I am rather enjoying this defense of Cooney by exes, I feel the need to throw in my two cents.
This claim would be frightfully difficult to establish, and the facts tell against it. One of Cooney's principle errors was to move from region-to-region, even in defiance of the church's instructions to settle in one field. It was this disregard for the church corporate that I believe was responsible for rubbing people the wrong way.
It is evident that he possessed a charismatic temperament, but at the same time I suspect Cooney had a difficult personality.
Not everything can be neatly segregated into goodies and badies. There was probably enough sin to go around, and the situation (like most of life) was doubtless messy. However, it is just as unhelpful to castigate Cooney as a wicked heretic, as it is to to attribute to the Workers who repudiated him the motives of power-lust. Neither stereotype leads us into truth.
Not being willing to compromise on which issue? It is beyond reasonable doubt that he compromised on some principles. However, you seem to suggest that Cooney should be celebrated for his integrity but that the specific principles upon which he decided to stake his integrity are of secondary importance.
Cooney wanted all converts to sell their possessions and enter the work. This would have produced unmitigated distaster, in my opinion. If Cooney had his way, the church would never have amounted to more than a non-scriptural radical fringe movement.
You would need to first disprove what they were saying for your perspective to have validity. Merely because someone says something "bad" about someone else does not make what is said untrue.
You have presented Edward Cooney as a noble rebel raging against the machine. Somewhat simplistic in my view.
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Post by Happy Feet on Dec 23, 2009 3:36:13 GMT -5
Jason wrote: One of Cooney's principle errors was to move from region-to-region, even in defiance of the church's instructions to settle in one field.
This was how the workers did it until they wanted to change it and make them settle in one field. It was not Cooney that changed. They had all been moving around from region to region since the beginning as the spirit led. The other workers wanted to change this and put workers over field, Cooney did not want this change. He wanted to continue doing what they had done up until then.
Jason said: Cooney wanted all converts to sell their possessions and enter the work.
This was how it was done before Cooney came along. Everyone sold everything and went into the work. This was changed later and became workers and saints. Cooney never changed these things, they were already in place before he came. The workers started to make changes and Cooney didn't like the new changes that were coming in.
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Post by JO on Dec 23, 2009 4:35:46 GMT -5
One of Cooney's principle errors was to move from region-to-region, even in defiance of the church's instructions to settle in one field. It was this disregard for the church corporate that I believe was responsible for rubbing people the wrong way. True. Several of the people responsible for "the church's instructions" were Cooney's converts and he had serious reservations about their decisions. They refused to take heed of the one who had done so much to get the movement established in those early years. Cooney was not into "church corporate", preferring to be led by the Spirit than led by man.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 5:58:58 GMT -5
Jesus - I told you to go before me, and don't enter into the way of the Gentiles. So what were you all doing in Egypt? Apostles - we were led of the Spirit.
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Post by fred on Dec 23, 2009 7:47:53 GMT -5
I think I might have mentioned it before bert, but you seem to have a serious problem with humour.
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Post by fred on Dec 23, 2009 7:52:39 GMT -5
Cooney : Why do you want to change what has worked so well for us so far , what God gave us at the beginning ?
Apostates : Because we feel it will work better this way, and anyway there are more of us, so on yer bike !
My little attempt at humour . (My wife tells me I suck at it )
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 10:31:48 GMT -5
Cooney was excommunicated for good reason, in my view. He seemed more interested in self-promotion and grand gestures than proclaiming the Lord. Is that the spin the victors put on it? Of course it is spin. I heard it when I grew up. My own father was victim of such spin as he passed the same sentiments on to me in the 1960's, ie that EC dramatically pointed out his own sacrifice and mock humility. I have seen this same pattern of derogatory whispering many times since as the prime method of turning friends and workers against their fellow believers and isolating them. Today we know the real reasons he was booted out: 1.He repented of the LWD and exclusivity doctrine completely against the conventional wisdom of the workers then and now. 2.He refused to accept the growing organization of the F&Ws by not recognizing the boundaries of field territories. Either one or both of these means automatic expulsion from the work yet today. Self-promotion does not mean expulsion since the most essential message of the workers today is the poor homeless ministry. The message is that you must accept the righteousness of the ministry system in order to be saved. Self-promotion doesn't get much greater than that, and it is widely accepted within the church.
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Post by JO on Dec 23, 2009 13:41:12 GMT -5
Jesus - I told you to go before me, and don't enter into the way of the Gentiles. So what were you all doing in Egypt? Apostles - we were led of the Spirit. Jesus: You’re not to preach the word in the province of Asia. Workers: We're on the workers list for Bithynia for this year. Jesus: I want you to go to Macedonia, where there are people asking for help. Workers: If they’re good they’ll keep. Perhaps it can arranged for next year’s workers list. Acts 16:6-10 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 13:49:57 GMT -5
Paul - Okay, tomorrow we go to Macedonia! Bad companions - Who says so? Paul - I had a vision! Bad companions - Well, that's YOUR vision! YOU attend to it.
This was Cooney. I knew the people who knew this man, and they sometimes spoke of him.
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