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Post by JO on Oct 9, 2009 21:46:45 GMT -5
Yes, times have changed. I fondly remember the unfeigned humility of the folks as they gathered in the little cottage on Sunday AM and Wednesday evening. A plank on two apple boxes with a blanket over it was fine for the children to sit on.
The atmosphere was one of humility and love.
Today meetings all too often are held in houses to which many never get invited outside of meeting and feel like intruders when they're there. The meeting is conducted like clockwork then folks put on a plastic smile, shake hands and quickly scurry out.
The atmosphere is one of pride and prejudice.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 9, 2009 22:32:26 GMT -5
Yes, times have changed. I fondly remember the unfeigned humility of the folks as they gathered in the little cottage on Sunday AM and Wednesday evening. A plank on two apple boxes with a blanket over it was fine for the children to sit on. This tugged at my heart powerfully. Your use of the term "unfeigned humility" is spot on. Gone are the days when simple fellowship was the thing. Fellowship ungoverned by prejudices and rigidities. The early workers in Australia used to conduct meetings all over the place, and camp in haystacks and horse stables, and eat whatever fell off grocery carts. Simplicity of worship was the order of the day then, too. Unfeigned humility of gospel meetings in people's loungerooms, and simple, simple friendship. No pecking orders and cliques.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 9, 2009 23:06:04 GMT -5
Yes my Dad use to tell stories such as this... I remember of a story of some worker on the trial who came upon a skunk and got sprayed... they had to stop the mission until he was able to get the smell out of his clothes.. had to bury them... I guess he did not have money to buy another suit.... my dad was funny when he use to tell those stories... he would often finish... and I would ask.. "Then what happen" he would simply say.. "don't know... my hat blew off and I had to go catch it"... I would say "AHHH Dad!!!" Dad was a great storyteller... he would tell stories of people he had known.. war stories... he was a walking talking history book. I remember about some worker that was shot through the head because of a jealous husband that did not want his wife to be in the 2x2s... he lived.. to tell about it.. Dad said it was a miracle. But Dad told stories about other workers.. such as Leon Stanton.. who was killed in a car wreck. Dad must have loved that man... he even gave me his last name as a middle name.. 'Stanton'.
Someone asked me once ... 'who are you?'... 'how do you know?'.... well when you had a Dad such as mine... you learned a lot. But never did dad tell me about WI... until I flat out asked him one day... he was in his 90s then. I asked him about this man ... was it true that he started the truth... he said yes... I said what about the truth being the only thing that was right... not having a man start it an all... he was embaressed... just said "well he had been to a lot of places in the world.. and as far as he was able to tell the truth is the closest thing to being right" He did not say much more. Dad had followed the party line all those years... but before his death he told the real truth.
So it is up to you 2x2s... exes... search.. seek.. find... determine... what is right?... we have the rest of our life to find it... hope we do... love you .... and... God Bless you all!!!
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 9, 2009 23:38:58 GMT -5
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Post by ithascome on Oct 10, 2009 0:20:07 GMT -5
Dad knew about the Cooneyites too... I remember as a kid going with my parents to some meeting out in the country. The Sunday morning meeting was very much like ours... in fact I thought it was the same thing... but I noticed that my Dad was very much reserved... he spoke in the meeting... I can not remember if my mom did... the hymns seemed to be a little different... but not all that much... the big noticeable difference was after the meeting.. Dad shock their hands as if you would shake a strangers hand and we left in a hurry... soon after the meeting.... that is something we would have never done.. we would have stayed for lunch.. or snacks or something... if nothing more stay to talk about the workers or the friends... it was obviously not the same. Anyway on the way home I heard dad say something negative to my mom about the meeting... so I ask Dad what did he mean... all he said was "they are not one of us". I was young and I did not understand... but I could tell by the tone of voice not to ask anything more.... since then I have wondered just what that was.. was it the Cooneyites? ... but it sure did look the same. I am not even sure why we went.. I guess Dad thought he could preach to them.. maybe bring some of them back to the fold. Dad had been a worker for 22 years... he was still a worker in his heart. But we are getting way off topic again... sorry This thread is not about the founder or anything else that happened in the past it is about right now and in the future... what can be done to help the 2x2 fellowship? GIC has posted a very good belief statement... what next?
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Post by JO on Oct 10, 2009 4:29:40 GMT -5
GIC has posted a very good belief statement... what next? Run it past the overseers?
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Post by ScholarGal on Oct 10, 2009 6:51:36 GMT -5
Tonight I miss my Mom. She sits down in an old stright back wooden chair in front of this tiny wooden organ. The little stand that flips up to hold the hymn book is ornately carved but the rest of the organ is a plain pine box worn smooth by time and use. I'm too young to remember the use of portable organs in gospel meeting. But I do remember finding one stored in a closet at my grandparents' house. It was in the "portable" state, so it looked like a simple wooden box. I was curious, but I couldn't figure out how to make it work. I was just a small child at the time, so it was too heavy for me to lift.
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Post by todd on Oct 10, 2009 9:18:38 GMT -5
Interesting topic... Haven't read it all though. In the last 10 yrs alone, I've not heard even a piano used though one usually available. Here in Australia (or at least where I am) the use of a piano (or a portable keyboard) is alive and well, so I don't know what is wrong with the rest of the world.... but relative to this thread, obviously the "Doctrine" can not include anything regarding musical instruments because there obviously is no such rule against or for them. I recall in the '90's when a woman played beautifully for the gospel meetings, she put feeling into the playing (ie "dynamics") and would add a few notes on hymns on the pre-meeting hymns. It was very nice and I thought set a positive tone for the meeting. After a few months, she was asked to change her playing to a no-dynamic, written-notes-only style. This requirement was a reflection of the rigidity in music that GIC reveals in his list. You people really need to visit Australia and hear the amount of extra notes that come from the piano Please don't mention "no extra notes" in the belief statement because that would not be correct. I am speaking of meetings, not of private life. Let me posit it in this fashion. If there were no pianos or organs (or keyboards - I will be comprehensive!) available for musical accompaniment in a gospel meeting, would somebody who could play the guitar be asked to step forward? Or the banjo? Or a flute? Violin? You surely are being disingenuous if you believe that it is standard practice to include a variety of instrumentation. I think the fact that it is more common for a piano to be used is to do with the fact that it is a more suitable instrument for a large group to sing along to. Even though I can play the guitar better than I can play the piano, if I was asked to accompany the singing at the Gospel meeting either on my guitar or on my piano, I would chose the piano. It takes a good guitarist to pluck the tune and play the chords at the same time, but most pianists that I know can do this on their piano. It would not sound very good to have a guitar just picking the tune only and you would be better off without it. BTW, the workers are not against guitars because merely 2 months back we had some lady workers visit us and one got on the piano to play and asked me to accompany her on my guitar. Also, people used to sing solo or in groups during convention meetings. In some ways there was greater flexibility than there is now. Still happens!!! (well, in Australia anyway) They get certain age groups to sing, or certain sexes to sing certain parts. Haha I still remember a worker singing an entire song to us from the platform. I felt embarrassed for him... he didn't seem worried though. There was also the worker in the Gospel meeting that pulled us up halfway through the first verse of a hymn and I can't quite remember the words she used but virtually told us that the singing was disgusting and told us that we needed to speed it up and get the timing right. Anyway, my point is that we'll have to drop any mention of musical accompaniment from the "doctrine" because it is clear that there is no universal "rule" regarding this.
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Post by sharon on Oct 10, 2009 9:22:24 GMT -5
There IS an universal rule though...musical instruments are NOT part of the routine Sun. nor Wed nite bible studies.
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Post by todd on Oct 10, 2009 9:46:18 GMT -5
There IS an universal rule though...musical instruments are NOT part of the routine Sun. nor Wed nite bible studies. I will ask an Auntie-in-law about that, because I am quite certain that she used to play the piano in a Wed meeting because there wasn't many of them and even less that could sing any sort of tune. It was the norm for them to play the piano while the others mumbled along out of tune. I'll have to get back to you with more details. I agree that it would be a rare thing for this to happen, but to write it in "doctrine" to say it has never been done, and never will be done, and is not allowed to be done... is wrong.... so why mention it?
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Post by september on Oct 10, 2009 10:06:19 GMT -5
I've heard lots of extra notes played in Ireland too. Like what I assume you heard Todd, they weren't all in harmony and the organist had a red face.
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Post by Annan on Oct 10, 2009 10:11:51 GMT -5
I remember several occasions at special meeting and convention where part of the gathering was a word or a few beats behind the others. Some type of music would help keep everyone synchronized. Not that God would be judging anyone's singing or carrying a tune, but it gets quite confusing when you are somewhere near the middle of the out-of-sync groups and are trying to sing.
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Post by todd on Oct 10, 2009 10:16:21 GMT -5
I've heard lots of extra notes played in Ireland too. Like what I assume you heard Todd, they weren't all in harmony and the organist had a red face. Haha, no that wasn't what I was thinking about, but now that you mention it, that happens in Australia from time to time also. Maybe that really is one universal "doctrine" we could add. It could be worded something along the lines of.... "2x2 cult pianist must be nervous, and randomly hit wrong notes and appear embarrassed". I think we are getting somewhere with this 2x2 Doctrine... it is going to be far more useful than the bible for working out our salvation. ... or maybe the bible is still pretty good.
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gells
Senior Member
Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Oct 10, 2009 10:31:16 GMT -5
I like it todd...
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Post by Gene on Oct 10, 2009 14:36:52 GMT -5
Okay Scott, I'll mention one of the overseers that spoke of this. He spoke of his mother who was a very devout Catholic, and that she had a wonderful relationship with the Lord. He said that she was very close to the Lord, and that he would like to believe that she was saved. He did not go as far to say that she was saved, as he mentioned that nobody knows what God's judgment is. This was the current overseer of IL/IN that spoke of these things. He went into greater detail, but I don't remember the specifics. Another comment on what you have said, Scott. You asked "Salvation is just as possible for those outside of the truth fellowship as it is for those that are in." So here's a question for you, Do you think that those that are in this fellowship think that everyone that is in the fellowship is saved?? I don't think anyone can claim that they know. It isn't a matter of whether you are "in the fellowship" or not. What of those that have never heard of this way?? Its absolutely ridiculous to say that there is less of a chance of salvation. As I stated before, salvation isn't based off of if you belong to a group or not, it is based off of ones own relationship with the Lord. I think that the workers would agree with me about that statement. Going by some of the posts following this one, it appears that some are assuming it was Leslie White who made the statement above about his Catholic mother. Just one problem -- his mother was not a devout Roman Catholic. I knew her, was at preps and conventions with her, washed dishes across from her, and I can assure you she was very devoutly professing!
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 10, 2009 16:00:39 GMT -5
Not that God would be judging anyone's singing or carrying a tune How do you know?
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Post by emy on Oct 10, 2009 16:15:08 GMT -5
Welcome back, Todd!
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 10, 2009 19:09:14 GMT -5
Nate: Thanks for your response. You made a good selection IMO. RE: Nate: Rather than what you have suggested, I give you my permission to copy and paste each of my posts on the doctrinal points on this thread to the board you're talking about (which I'm not a member of and am not familiar with). You may be the host to the post helping readers to put into words their own personal Doctrinal Statement. Some have done that on TLC. You dont even need to mention my name in connection with the posts, or say where they came from. Just invite readers to participate with "I/We believe" comments. PS: The Trinity was covered under the God post at: professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=14691&page=5#300886
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Post by kiwi on Oct 10, 2009 21:33:05 GMT -5
There IS an universal rule though...musical instruments are NOT part of the routine Sun. nor Wed nite bible studies. Not so where I go.
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Post by sharon on Oct 10, 2009 21:54:31 GMT -5
There IS an universal rule though...musical instruments are NOT part of the routine Sun. nor Wed nite bible studies. Not so where I go. You're allowed a piano/organ playing in the Sun a.m. mtg? If so, then there is another disparity of the fellowship! How much more confusing can it become.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 10, 2009 22:37:32 GMT -5
Perhaps you too could say "they are not one of us".
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Post by todd on Oct 10, 2009 23:29:50 GMT -5
Thanks emy and nathan. Hopefully I can find the time to hang out here more often. I remembered last night how much fun I have here so I'll try to keep up with the forum and things that are going on, as fast as it does move at times.
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Post by JO on Oct 10, 2009 23:36:06 GMT -5
You're allowed a piano/organ playing in the Sun a.m. mtg? If so, then there is another disparity of the fellowship! How much more confusing can it become. Kiwi is probably thinking of the Wed PM meetings rather than Sunday AM. To me, sameness the world over can be a weakness rather than a strength. Sameness can be a sign of stagnation. Ironically in the beginning days of our fellowship William Irvine's spontaneity was a breath of fresh air: One never knew from first to last what was going to come next with him, sometimes hardly any sermon, at other times nearly all sermons; sometime give out a hymn, and from some thought therein start talking to end of meeting and never sing a hymn at all; sometimes sing half a hymn standing, remainder sitting; sometimes nearly all racy anecdotes with plenty smiles and laughter, at other times soul-stirring exhortation, backed by sad and tragic experiences, etc. All this added freshness and life to the words of one whose intense earnestness and wholehearted zeal and devotion none of us had seen before...www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.php
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Post by todd on Oct 10, 2009 23:43:14 GMT -5
You're allowed a piano/organ playing in the Sun a.m. mtg? If so, then there is another disparity of the fellowship! How much more confusing can it become. Another disparity that I noticed is that one fellowship we used to go to had grey plush carpet, and then we went to a fellowship that had a cacky green lino, so there you go... shocking isn't it. And confusing!!! It plays on your mind Maybe it is time for us to realize that we are there to worship God rather than worshipping the fact that we do or don't play the piano with the hymns. That way it becomes far less confusing because we come to this amazing revelation that whether we do or don't have the piano, it is completely irrelevant to our service to God. And because of this irrelevance, this is one less reason that a "doctrine" needs to be written. In fact, I haven't seen any good reasons yet.
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Post by todd on Oct 11, 2009 0:42:37 GMT -5
Since none of it is relevant, then how do you get the workers to stop singing hymns at gospel meetings? Some outsiders just came for the Gospel discussion and did not want to listen to hymns. Is not the Gospel more important then signing hymns? I didn't say the hymns weren't relevant. If people want the Gospel, the hymns are yet another way to hear it. Many hymns have words taken directly from the bible. God's people have sung hymns for a very long time... don't expect that to stop any time soon. Around here (maybe this is an Aussie thing?) we get together and sing hymns and play instruments (yes, instruments ) and it is very enjoyable and encouraging.
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Post by JO on Oct 11, 2009 3:05:03 GMT -5
I didn't say the hymns weren't relevant. If people want the Gospel, the hymns are yet another way to hear it. Many hymns have words taken directly from the bible. I agree Todd, hymns are another way to hear the gospel. Even if they're written by non-2x2 workers.
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Post by JO on Oct 11, 2009 3:20:06 GMT -5
Maybe it is time for us to realize that we are there to worship God rather than worshipping the fact that we do or don't play the piano with the hymns. That way it becomes far less confusing because we come to this amazing revelation that whether we do or don't have the piano, it is completely irrelevant to our service to God. And because of this irrelevance, this is one less reason that a "doctrine" needs to be written. In fact, I haven't seen any good reasons yet. I agree Todd. Form and method and religious system at best facilitates worship. When it becomes "the only way" it becomes idolatry, and actually hinders the worship of God.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 11, 2009 4:46:10 GMT -5
You're allowed a piano/organ playing in the Sun a.m. mtg? If so, then there is another disparity of the fellowship! How much more confusing can it become. The question was not for Sun morning just said Sun We have Sun night studies when no Gosps. I can't see anything confusing about it at all. Some do some don't so what?
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