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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 3, 2009 18:49:56 GMT -5
I am amazed at all the objections to compiling a simple statement of belief. What is so difficult about writing down the fellowship's beliefs about these things?
If an F&W were asked a question about any of the items in the list below, they would likely be able to give an answer as to their beliefs concerning that subject.
For example: If asked, "Do you believe in heaven or sin or angels?" You would probably have a ready answer...
Generally, Statements of Doctrine or Belief include brief summary about the following subjects. F&W certainly hold particular beliefs about each of these subjects...
It should be an easy task to write them down in a simple format, using the following samples taken from Belief Statements found on the internet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Presupposition: God’s existence underlies all other Bible doctrines. Without the existence of God all other Bible doctrines would be meaningless. The Bible begins by assuming and declaring the existence of God, without undertaking to prove it.
#1 As an independent, nondenominational church assuming no name… WE/I believe... 1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #125 2. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #3 3. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #196 4. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-268 5. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 295 6. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662
The doctrines below will follow soon... 7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
Why not take these items one by one and work out your personal Statement of Faith or the F&W Doctrinal Statement?
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Post by ithascome on Oct 3, 2009 19:05:52 GMT -5
Well maybe you will get somewhere with this Cherie. So far all I have been able to do is make a few people angry. Lets see if this thread will have a better result... Thanks!
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Post by sharon on Oct 3, 2009 20:57:21 GMT -5
Well maybe you will get somewhere with this Cherie. So far all I have been able to do is make a few people angry. Lets see if this thread will have a better result... Thanks! I'm sorry, Ithascome, that you think someone has been angry about this issue. I thought everyone was trying to discuss it from their perspective....yes, someone got the "you" feelings hurt, but seems that is gone and handled very well indeed. Perhaps it's just a symptom of the deeper things that are hard to really get to understand that are part and parcel of the fellowship, I'm not sure...but it seems that way to me. There is great resistance to change and that is evidenced in some of us that are being open minded about the issue of the history, though truthfully not all of us want to say WI founded the fellowship. I, personally, do not know how realistically anyone can deny it....and yes, I want to add some other names to founder...but generally the first leader is the one who gets the founder status....in most issues, that is.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 3, 2009 20:59:42 GMT -5
This thread is not about the founder...it's about beliefs.
#2: What do the F&W's believe about the Bible/Scripture? Do any of the following statements describe your beliefs?
As an independent, nondenominational church assuming no name… A. We/I believe in the verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings. (Plenary= complete in every respect; absolute;)
B. We/I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and inerrant (II Tim. 3:16-17)
C. We/I believe (a) in the plenary-verbal inspiration of the Word of God and (b) that both the Old and New Testaments are inerrant in the original writings and are the supreme and final authority for faith and life.
D. We/I believe the Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is the revelation of God's truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice.
E. We/I believe the Bible was inspired by God and contains all things necessary for salvation.
F. We/I believe that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16). We understand this to mean that the whole Bible is inspired, in that holy men of God "were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21) to write the very words of Scripture. We believe that this divine inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of Scripture as it appeared in the original manuscripts. We believe that the whole Bible in those original manuscripts is, therefore, without error. We believe that all Scripture centers around the Lord Jesus Christ in His person, work, and in His first and second coming. Therefore, no portion of the Old Testament is properly read or understood until it leads to Christ. We also believe that all Scripture was designed for our practical instruction. (Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39; Romans 15:4; 1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:16)
G. We/I believe that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (II Timothy 3:16-17), and we understand this to mean that the whole Bible is inspired in that holy men of God "were moved by the Holy Spirit" (II Peter 1:21) to write the very words of Scripture. We believe this to mean that, the whole of Scripture as it appeared in the original manuscripts is inerrant.
H. We/I affirm our confidence in God’s inerrant Word. We treasure its truths, and we respect its reproofs.The 66 books of the Old and New Testaments are the Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and written centuries ago by chosen men of God. The Bible is without error in its original manuscripts, is completely reliable as the final authority in all matters of doctrine and practice, and is centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ. See 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:15–17; and 2 Peter 1:20–21.
J. We/I believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
K. We/I believe the Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.
L. We/I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and is the final authority in life and doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16).
M. We/I believe that the sixty-six books of Holy Scripture as originally given are in their entirety the Word of God verbally inspired and wholly without error in all that they declare and, therefore, are the supreme and final authority of faith and life.
N. We/I believe the sole basis of our beliefs is the Bible, God's infallible written Word, the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments. We believe that it was uniquely, verbally and fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it was written without error (inerrant) in the original manuscripts. It is the supreme and final authority in all matters on which it speaks.
O. We/I believe the Bible is the final authority on all matters of faith and practice.
Subjects covered in Statement of Belief: 1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #125 2. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #3 3. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #196 4. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-268 5. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 295 6. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662
The doctrines below will follow soon... 7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 5:33:28 GMT -5
The doctrine is in the bible - why do you need to elaborate or amend it?
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Post by shushy on Oct 4, 2009 6:51:20 GMT -5
I remember one problem I had after leaving and then attending a denominational church. They would ask me questions on what I believed and I did struggle with answering. So they would take me to the scriptures and show me and when my mind was shaken they would take me to more and tell me to try to memorise it. Confess it. Eat it until it became mine. My mind needed renewing.
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Post by sharon on Oct 4, 2009 8:32:37 GMT -5
This thread is not about the founder...it's about beliefs. #1: What do the F&W's believe about the Bible/Scripture? Do any of the following statements describe the beliefs of the F&W?A. We believe in the verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings. (Plenary= complete in every respect; absolute;) B. We believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and inerrant (II Tim. 3:16-17) C. We believe (a) in the plenary-verbal inspiration of the Word of God and (b) that both the Old and New Testaments are inerrant in the original writings and are the supreme and final authority for faith and life. D. We believe the Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is the revelation of God's truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. If not - what is a better description? Cherie, pardon me, but I think simply because people still deny the "founder" or beginner issue...that effects their statement of belief. I'm not certain if many of the fellowship really can give a statement of belief. And I think that is sad for us to not know what we're believing.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 4, 2009 10:07:42 GMT -5
I beg to differ, Sharon. The "history" of the workers and their ministry and fellowship are part of the F&W CHURCH (Item 10), and are not "Christian doctrine;" just like the history of other churches is not biblical doctrine/teaching. God, Bible, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Satan, Man, Sin, Salvation, Heaven, Hell, End of Times --none of these have nothing to do with the F&W history. They are totally independent of it.
Even tho the workers like to think their fellowship and ministers are all- important, they aren't. If items 1-8 plus some others listed after "church" were not existing--there would be no church OR history about it.
Christianity is what it is regardless of the 2x2history of the workers man-made church.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 10:11:22 GMT -5
The doctrine is in the bible - why do you need to elaborate or amend it? Bert, the early church continued steadfastly in the Apostles' "doctrine" (i.e. teachings) long before the New Testament was written. This doctrine was a statement of beliefs, no doubt written on the scrip they were told by Jesus to carry?
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Post by dudeler on Oct 4, 2009 12:07:06 GMT -5
The doctrine is in the bible - why do you need to elaborate or amend it? Cherie is asking for what the doctrine is ABOUT the bible, which I would argue isn't IN the bible, as it didn't exist at the the time any of the books where written. But, by you're statement, it seems like the belief is: Doctrine is found within the Bible.
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Post by dudeler on Oct 4, 2009 12:36:15 GMT -5
For reference, part 1 of the suggestions so far:
From Over the Rainbow: If we must have a statement of beliefs, I think the shorter the better, such as Jesus words, 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me'. I like that one.
From Clearday
"We believe in Christ as our Saviour, Lord, and Teacher."
From Sharon
I would hope the "belief statement" is this: "Jesus is MY Saviour....for HE died for my sins, His blood cleanses me and I may go before our Heavenly Father with love and freedom. I AM FREE FROM MY SINS because JESUS HAS MADE IT SO!
Dudeler's suggestion: 1. We believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, and the source of knowledge about God’s will.
2. We believe in the inner working of the Holy Spirit to instruct, convict and comfort each person individually.
3. We believe God loves us and cares for our souls. He has a path for each of us to follow, and it is our responsibility to find and follow it by asking for his direction.
4. We believe Jesus came to earth as God’s perfect sacrifice for our sins. He showed us how to live by his teachings and actions. He died to save us and give us hope of eternal life.
5. We believe the New Testament church is the example for how fellowship should occur and how the Gospel should be preached.
JO's suggestion:
This is our written doctrine:
The path of life, I've found it In Jesus most complete; Though now cast out and suffering, His fellowship is sweet. He's God's own plan and pattern, The new and living way; My joy it is to follow With Him each day.
I'm glad He ever found me And came to dwell within, The stronger than the strong man, Who saves me now from sin; 'Twas life I got, not theory: His voice I did obey And entered in by Jesus, God's only way.
Kiwi's suggestion: To love the Lord God with all our hearts, souls, minds and spirits, and our neighbours as ourselves.
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Post by dudeler on Oct 4, 2009 12:38:22 GMT -5
And part 2. A distinctly different flavor...
From Thomas
2x2 Doctrine: The real Ten Commandments
*Women must wear skirts, no make-up, and no jewelry. Long hair is a must. But you must wear it up in a lovely bun.
*The devil resides in every cable station, so no television. But the devil does not reside online or in online shows or video games. So you can do all that stuff (lucky us).
*We will focus only on the method and not the message (this is a must).
*Workers are the final authority (we won't say it out loud, but they will get the idea).
*If ever a worker behaves inappropriately in an abusive or sexually abusive manner, please keep it quiet and redirect him to a different field.
*Salvation by some kind of work is a necessity. There is no room for grace here.
*We are the only right ones. (Please remember this important fact.)
*Buildings are of the devil. We must only meet in homes. (But for convention we can make an exception and meet in buildings, but don't tell anyone, as far as they're concerned these are just storage units!)
*Workers must only abide by Jesus' one solemn commandment and the only thing He ever said: "Go it in pairs"
*Please pick and choose only the verses that support the above doctrine, and if need be please take them out of context at your discretion.
From ithascome 2x2 Belief Statement... (according to the workers) WOW!!!
• The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home.
• "You can tell whether a church is a false church or not if it was started by a man or woman. We are the only church on earth that was started by Christ."
• Keep people at arms length.
•"We get saved by getting in; we keep saved by fitting in."
•"The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence
•"The Holy Spirit is not God."
• "Jesus may be God
• This is the only Way that was started by Christ
•"We are never safe until we have finished our journey with Christ
• "Will The Truth ever change?’ It could never happen
•"The seed is only possessed by the True ministry. It is not sown by anyone else
•"Jesus, God and Holy Spirit are one Being but not one
•"I don’t like to see trends of some things amongst God’s people; such as make up, jewelry and games. We don’t want to see law have to be used. We need clean homes, not videos. You folks will have to decide whether we have to use the rod."
•" Professing doesn’t mean you are saved and ready for Heaven
•"It is more important for me to understand my companion than for me to understand the word of God.
•"Grace is the ability God gives us to do His will."
•"Faith cometh by hearing, not reading
I Think all new potential converts should receive this list of beliefs.
From Brad They don't want a printed doctrine because it would look bad:
1) Slander those who ask questions 2) Separate people with marriages issues. Take sides and tell lies to get them to hate each other. 3) We're saved, others are not 4) Church buildings are evil 5) Ignorance rules! God hates knowledge!
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 4, 2009 12:42:53 GMT -5
For Bert: The so-called "history" on your website/s is in history books - so why are you elaborating or amending it? Answer: So the Traditions of Men are plainly seen to be separate issues from Commandments of God. What many of us B&R long believed were teaching/beliefs that were essential for our salvation--we learned as adults were merely traditions, preferences and idiosyncrasies of men. How do you learn to tell the difference? I suggest by putting Biblical doctrine in writing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ “The Bible Says it, therefore it’s True” . . . And Other Stupid Statements by Michael C. Patton Just because the Bible says something, this does not make it true. We follow the Bible in what it teaches, but not everything it records is intended to be teaching in the proper sense. Our goal as Christians is to be good interpreters of the Bible, being able to discern when something is being taught or when something is being told. Here are five ways that we can mistakenly believe that the Bible is teaching truth or principles when it is not. 1. Some parts of the Bible are incidental to the bigger picture, not intending to teach any principle. Be careful that you don’t try to find a principle in every passage. Not every verse or chapter of the Bible has an “application” in the traditional sense. For example, the chronologies of Matthew and Luke are not intending to teach a principle in and of themselves. They are simply attempting to give necessary background material so that Christ as the Messiah can be substantiated. 2. You have to distinguish between prescriptive and descriptive passages. This is related to the previous and is especially relevant to narrative books such as Acts. We must be very careful with narratives since their primary purpose is to tell a story that is relevant to the bigger picture of redemption, not to give us prescriptive commands to live by. For example, in Acts chapter 1 we are told that the Apostles “cast lots” to discover who God wanted to replace Judas among the twelve. This is not giving principles on how to elect a pastor! It is simply saying this is what happened, nothing more, nothing less. Another example (although not narrative) appears in Paul’s second letter to Timothy. Paul tells Timothy to “bring him his cloak” (2 Tim 4:13). There is no abiding theological principle saying that Christians are to bring people coats! It is simply teaching us that Paul asked Timothy to bring him his cloak. Paul was cold! Nothing profound. 3. Different types of literature have different types of truth. You cannot interpret a Psalm the same way you do a Proverb. And you can’t interpret a Proverb the same you you do an epistle (letter). And you can’t interpret an epistle the same way you do apocalyptic material. They all follow different rules. And the truths that they communicate will be understood according to those rules. For example, a Proverb is a general truth of wisdom that does not necessarily apply or hold in every situation. Just because the Bible has proverbs does not mean that we are to sanctify the way we interpret the proverb. In other words, just because it is in the Bible does not mean that it is a truth that does necessarily apply in every situation. Psalms are songs and need to be understood under such imagery. Epistles are letters and need to be understood under the “rules” that apply to a letter. And then there is Ecclesiastes…don’t get me started there! 4. Sometimes the author does not want you to take him literally. Authors can exaggerate, speak candidly, be sarcastic, or be in bad moods. This will effect the way we are to interpret them. This will also effect the “truth” that they are teaching. For example, Paul says that “all Cretans are liars” (Tit. 1:12). Does this mean, since it is in the Bible, that at the time Paul wrote this every individual who lived in Crete continually lied? No. We use exaggeration as rhetoric all the time. We don’t intend people to take us literally. Another example is in Paul’s first letter to Timothy. He says about false teachers: “If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing” (1Ti 6:3-4). The Greek word used for “nothing” is meden. It means “no thing” or “nothing.” (Wow!) Does this mean that in order to be faithful to the truthfulness of Scripture, we have to take Paul literally here? Does this mean that the false teachers did not understand what 2+2 is? Of course not. The meden is limited to what Paul is talking about. It is a rhetorical overstatement—hyperbole—that Paul uses for effect. The false teachers did not understand anything with regard to the doctrines which they were teaching. 5. Sometimes the Bible records falsehood. I was at a website the other day that had a daily Scripture at the top of the page. This particular day it had Matt. 4:9 “All of this I will give to you if you will worship me.” Out of context, that looks fine. God will give us many blessings if we worship him. The problem is that this is a quotation from Satan when he tempted Christ! This verse is in the Bible, but it is not true. We need to be careful that we are mindful of who is talking, when, and how their words are to be understood. I hear people quoting Job’s friends all the time as evidence for certain characteristics of God. But Job’s friends are not presented in a positive light. Some of what they say is true, but much is wrong—even if it is in the Bible. When interpreted correctly, I believe that the Bible always speaks the truth. But when interpreted incorrectly, it goes without saying that the incorrect interpretation does not represent the truth. If the Bible says it, this simply means that God wanted whatever it says to be included. We believe that the Bible is true in whatever it teaches, but whatever it says is not always meant to teach in the way we often assume. Be careful with God’s word. It is the most wonderful book in the world, but it is also the most dangerous. -------------------------------- other stupid statements
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 4, 2009 13:11:53 GMT -5
I am reposting the following message by Dennis J written in 1997 in its entirety. (Dennis gives cart blanche to others quoting his posts, provided they are given in their entirety)
His remarks address the importance of knowing one's doctrine, and being able always to give an answer to those who ask... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: funeral doctrine Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 From: "Dennis A. Jacobsen" To: 2X2-CHURCH List
Dear Friends, Is "cultism" any more evident than in cult cliches mouthed in efforts to terminate any individual thought process?
That Jesus had doctrine is evident for "the people were astonished at His Doctrine, (Matt 7:28); and "leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection: (Hebrews 6:1)
That the apostles had doctrine is evident for "they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship (Acts 2:42) (Apostles who could DO many signs and wonders, as they met there daily with one accord in the Temple! YES, the temple here referred to inside the Temple walls of the courtyard.)
And of course we all KNOW verse after verse indicating the need for SOUND DOCTRINE!
This was so important Paul admonished Titus "in doctrine shewing uncorruptness..." Tit 2:7
...Because Jesus warned of those "teaching for DOCTRINES the commandments of men!...(Matt. 15:9)
Question? Where is that which workers teach for "doctrine" more evident and easier to examine for corruptness by men, than at a 2x2 funeral?
With recent conversation here re: funerals, an account of a worker's funeral message has been posted to us. The person who died had only one professing relation, a child.
This account was related to us by someone I (Dennis) first met nearly 30 years ago, who wishes to remain anonymous to this list (though not to us) for a while longer. We were given permission to talk about this account. Knowing the eye-witness and ear-hearer as we do, we safely trust this to be an accurate report.
The worker acknowledged never meeting the deceased, and having had no time to speak with the family before conducting the service.
Then the worker went on to speak of lack of faith and the need to guard against a lack of faith and dying with a lack of faith. The worker expounded words to the effect (if not a factual quote) that "faith comes by hearing the actual words of Jesus as heard in our Gospel meetings. Then faith grows by attending more and more meetings, and we know we have passed from death unto life when we love the brethern. (These people we meet in gospel meetings.)"
There you have it folks, 2x2 doctrine, words of comfort to the living "outsiders" at a funeral service.
Wondering what would happen if someday these messages, names, times and place could be so accurately recorded as to be posted word for word in a forum like this. Then all INCLUDING OTHER WORKERS could indeed pause and consider what "doctrine" people are really hearing from workers! That way everyone could benefit from the edification, exhortation, and Godly comfort resulting from the wisdom and understanding contained in their doctrine. Hmmmmmmm? Comments anyone?
Ylva wishes to add..."IF workers were forced to defend other workers doctrine they would sit down and unify it quickly! AND that would be good, because then they could NOT deny things another has said by saying 'Oh that is not what we believe!' as they do now!"
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Post by ilylo on Oct 4, 2009 14:30:09 GMT -5
The doctrine is in the bible - why do you need to elaborate or amend it? Funny that a 2x2 like bert charges others with amending the Bible.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 4, 2009 14:51:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 15:03:36 GMT -5
I too am amazed at all the objections to compiling a simple statement of belief. What is so difficult about writing down the fellowship's beliefs about these things? If a F&W were asked a question about any of these items, they would likely be able to answer what they believe about it. For ex: If you were asked, what does “hell” mean to you? You would have an answer. Generally, Statements of doctrine or belief include brief summary about the following subjects. F&W certainly hold particular beliefs about each of these subjects...So what’s the big problem with writing it down…in a simple format?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Presupposition: God’s existence underlies all other Bible doctrines. Without the existence of God all other Bible doctrines would be meaningless. The Bible begins by assuming and declaring the existence of God, without undertaking to prove it. 1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, name, etc.) 2. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) 3. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) 4. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) 5. Satan (demons, angels) 6. Man (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) 7. Sin-2 kinds (original sin and actual/personal; repentance, punishment, judgment) 8. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 9. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism) 10. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 11. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 12. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 13. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc) Why not take these items one by one and work out the F&W beliefs? Take No. 1: What is the F&W's belief about the Bible/Scripture?Cherie It appears that you wish to make it as straight foward as possible for the 2x2s to produce a clear statement of the doctrine in which they believe. Why don't you make it easier still by first providing the 2x2's with a clear statement of the doctrine in which you believe? That would seem fair to me. Matt10
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thomas
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Post by thomas on Oct 4, 2009 15:47:40 GMT -5
The Bible actually teaches about a Triune God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not in relationship with God, they are God. If you don't follow this idea, the Bible then contradicts itself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 15:55:38 GMT -5
The Bible actually teaches about a Triune God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not in relationship with God, they are God. If you don't follow this idea, the Bible then contradicts itself. I certainly don't follow this idea. Are you confirming therefore that the bible contadicts itself? To be perfectly honest I think I secretly knew that all along. Matt10
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 4, 2009 16:39:59 GMT -5
Matt 10 wrote:
Because "what Cherie believes" is irrelevant to the subject under discussion, which is what the 2x2s believe.
I fail to see anything hard about stating what one believes about the Bible... or one's selected Standard of Authority. I have made it easy - which of the selections describe the reader's belief? IMO, "easy" and "fair" do not apply when stating ones beliefs.
I repeat: #1: What do the F&W's believe about the Bible/Scripture?
Several examples are given in Post #3.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 17:06:18 GMT -5
That diagram is seriously interesting. There were no-name home based churches in Europe during the Inquisition. Also, there was the same in the 1600's. But without social recognition, and no internet - our knowledge of even these churches is completely accidental.
In similar vein to the comings and goings of the church in the Old Testament, I suggest a fragmented line, appearing and disappearing over generations. Sometimes those churches contracted to a few, and like that of Ephesus, were found again (I suspect my great Grandfather's LA church in the 1860's was like this.) At other times dying out completely. Because that church's doctrine is fully contained in the Gospels it readily and instinctively reforms without living or historical knowledge of other churches. That is why the Gospel was written - it is the written Word and not Man that carries it across generations and cultures.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 17:25:13 GMT -5
There are a range of interpretations and these would be on a "normal distribution" graph. Look this up on the internet I suggest though that this range is far closer than most churches.
We don't say the bible in inerrant - no one can because its contradictions are obvious. We are open to what a senior Australian worker called "mistranslations." We don't hold to key verses or "proof texts" - others hold to alternate proof texts. We believe in trying to reconcile texts (ie God is love, God is a god of vengeance etc) We hold that the example is absolutely crucial - it cuts through translations. We believe that belief comes not just through the scripture, but through the spirit.
I am (personally) wary of entering into academic dialogue on mistranslations, history and cultural context of scripture. Such "context" puts the truth into the hands of him (or her) who can argue the most forcibly, or provides a pick and chose faith.
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 4, 2009 17:27:47 GMT -5
I wonder if we were to add a line for the 2x2 church just where would we put it?
I think a small "hairline", would be added somewhere on the protestantism line, starting at the date of 1897 , on the chart. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 17:43:54 GMT -5
No two people, in ANY church, agree 100% on 100% of all points of doctrine. Even in the bible. Nathan refers often to other groups. I suspect the real truth is more complex than any of us know. There are all sorts of trinities (and unlike the mainstream churches) we happily accept them all. "We" can variously mean me and Prue, or our church, or NB, GIC, FS etc. Depends on context ;D
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Post by sharon on Oct 4, 2009 18:00:40 GMT -5
I suspect the line to put the 2X2 would be along the same line as the Anabaptists actually....professing a lineage back before the others. Though it certainly was brought about the Restorationism Movement.
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Post by sharon on Oct 4, 2009 18:04:42 GMT -5
"B. We believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and inerrant (II Tim. 3:16-17) E. We believe the Bible was inspired by God and contains all things necessary for salvation. "
I actually have heard the workers say these two in gospel mtgs. back when I was very young. Perhaps even were said in Convs.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 4, 2009 18:05:56 GMT -5
so FS was right
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 18:07:31 GMT -5
You don't see us splitting into pro and anti gay priests, do you?
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