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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 21:09:47 GMT -5
I have never heard a single worker say, (either in preaching or private) that anyone out of 'the way' could be saved, here in NSW, Australia.... Try asking your local workers directly and try to get them past the "we don't judge" diversion. I predict they will say that it is possible if the individuals have never had an opportunity to meet the workers, such as in some remote area the workers have never worked in. As gells points out, actions speak louder than words, and inaction is just as loud as action. If the workers believed Christians outside of the meetings are as likely saved as those inside the meetings, their lives and the lives of the friends would be vastly different than they are now. Workers mingle only amongst the friends, and the friends don't stray too far from mingling only with other friends and that would change dramatically if they believed other Christians as as likely to be saved as F&Ws.
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Post by emy on Oct 8, 2009 22:17:01 GMT -5
Here's my effort toward a sincere and honest assessment of the majority view within the Fellowship regarding key doctrines. God* God is not a trinity * There is only one God, the Father * Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is divine but never to be called "God" * The Holy Spirit is an impersonal force that emanates from God and Christ Scripture* Strong belief in solo scriptura which is not the same as sola scriptura - the former emphasises the totality of knowledge about the truth exists solely in the Scriptures and that no additional understanding or clarification can come forth from any source outside of the Scriptures. * Emphasis on the practical component of the New Testament * Many professing people - particularly Gen Xers - deny that the Scriptures are infallible or inerrant. Many believe the Scriptures contain mistakes. Whenever there is doubt about some element of Scripture, the ultimate authority are the practices and behaviour of Western professing people. * Workers are authoritative teachers of the Bible, but not the only authoritative teachers. Some believe they are fallible, others hold the Workers as inerrant teachers. Sin* There is no original sin. Human beings are born innocent and are schooled in sin by the environment and a wilful human nature. * Human nature must be erased and replaced with a divine nature. * Strong emphasis on free will - both sin and salvation are voluntary choices. Sacraments* There are three sacraments * Baptism by immersion - does not of itself revoke sins * The emblems (Lord's Supper) - which are only signifiers, but many maintain are also conduits of grace, and that by eating sins are removed. * The ministry (Holy Orders) - God calls, sanctions, and marks individuals for the ministry Church practice* Church buildings are markers of false religiosity * Public collections of money do not belong in worship and must be avoided * Organ and piano musical accompanyment only * Unrehearsed preaching - no notes must accompany the minister Salvation* Salvation is never assured until after death * It is possible to lose salvation at any time * Jesus "makes it possible" for us to live a righteous life * Jesus atones for sins, but does not justify - justification is dependant on our actions * Justification and sanctification are the same thing * We are justified by a life of ceaseless self-denial and personal sacrifice * We are not saved by grace alone through faith alone * Grace is power that God grants the believer to accomplish good works * Salvation is largely dependant on persevering in the church to the end * Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church This is my honest and heartfelt assessment of what is a majority opinion from my experience. Obviously there are exceptions, and I do not promise that this account is accurate in all places, at all times. The people I know would not consider the Holy Spirit impersonal - far from it. The HS is the most personal aspect of God. Again.. in the fellowship I know, people expect to be instructed and guided by the Holy Spirit every day. God's calling (vocation) is certainly not limited to the ministry. Not sure how this fits in with baptism and the emblems. In what situations? I have often heard other musical instruments used for accompaniment. Issues of music are surely not of any strict interpretation. Most often there is no accompaniment at all for meetings, but privately there is use of anything from harps to saw blades. I could not unconditionally endorse any of these statements. Those that are partially true, in my understanding, need to be enlarged upon.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 8, 2009 23:30:09 GMT -5
The people I know would not consider the Holy Spirit impersonal - far from it. The HS is the most personal aspect of God. I'm using the term "impersonal" in the theological sense of something without personhood. Professing friends - in my opinion only - generally regard the Holy Spirit as a kind of force; a presence perhaps. This is evinced by the pronoun used to speak about the Holy Spirit - the Friends invariably refer to "it". However, Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit is a personal being - that properly should be addressed as "he". As Jesus taught us, " When the Holy Spirit comes, he will lead you into all truth". The idea that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal "it" is alien to the text of the New Testament. There is no question most professing people have an intimate relationship with the Spirit, whose communion is valued over anything else, however, there is also little doubt in my mind that the Holy Spirit is not regarded generally as a personal being in his own right. Ergo the above. I never maintained that. You need to remember I have been professing for almost twenty years, continue to participate in the meetings and intend to do so for many years to come. I have little sympathy with false negative representations of our fellowship, but by the same token I have little time for false representations altogether. A sacrament is something that is "set apart" and considered to be part of God's manifestation within his church. Workers, in my view, are expected to live a sacramental life not altogether dissimilar from that of monks or nuns - and there is nothing wrong with such a thing; it is consistent with the New Testament, however we need to be open in acknowleding it. Worker are not encouraged to marry; they are frequently commended in preaching, prayer and hymn - they are recipients of a "special calling" which is altogether different from the calling each individual recieves to "come and follow Jesus". I am speaking of meetings, not of private life. Let me posit it in this fashion. If there were no pianos or organs (or keyboards - I will be comprehensive!) available for musical accompanyment in a gospel meeting, would somebody who could play the guitar be asked to step forward? Or the banjo? Or a flute? Violin? You surely are being disingenuous if you believe that it is standard practice to include a variety of instrumentation. My point is that our hymnody is very rigidly defined, which is sad in some ways because it does tend to diminish certain possibilities for worshipping God. For instance, I would love to see the psalms being sung directly as they are printed in the Bible in the same manner in which Christ and his Apostles sung at the Last Supper. As Paul said, when we come together one of the things we ought to do is sing psalms. Either my (almost) twenty years of professing have not taught me anything, or my careful reading of the hymns has been in vain. If you think I have been unduely harsh or have misrepresented the faith of others, I am open to correction. I have no wish to be proven right in my claims on this issue; it gives me no pleasure to state things so boldly - and I would humbly accept another point-of-view. I ask in sincerity and without any ill-feeling at all, that it would be helpful to me if you might enlarge, as you say, upon the points that are only partially true.
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Post by StAnne on Oct 8, 2009 23:57:10 GMT -5
Yes, it is nice to sing the Psalms.
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Post by JO on Oct 9, 2009 2:03:22 GMT -5
I am speaking of meetings, not of private life. Let me posit it in this fashion. If there were no pianos or organs (or keyboards - I will be comprehensive!) available for musical accompanyment in a gospel meeting, would somebody who could play the guitar be asked to step forward? Or the banjo? Or a flute? Violin? You surely are being disingenuous if you believe that it is standard practice to include a variety of instrumentation. This is an example of the greater rigidity compared with mid-20th century meetings. The violin was used to accompany gospel meeting singing in the area I was raised in. Also, people used to sing solo or in groups during convention meetings. In some ways there was greater flexibility than there is now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2009 7:00:19 GMT -5
I am speaking of meetings, not of private life. Let me posit it in this fashion. If there were no pianos or organs (or keyboards - I will be comprehensive!) available for musical accompanyment in a gospel meeting, would somebody who could play the guitar be asked to step forward? Or the banjo? Or a flute? Violin? You surely are being disingenuous if you believe that it is standard practice to include a variety of instrumentation. This is an example of the greater rigidity compared with mid-20th century meetings. The violin was used to accompany gospel meeting singing in the area I was raised in. Also, people used to sing solo or in groups during convention meetings. In some ways there was greater flexibility than there is now. You're right, I had almost not noticed the gradual change over the last half of the 20th century. I remember a worker who would play the accordian for his gospel meetings and I also recall small-group and solo singing. All that would be unheard of now. In fact, we have often had no music at all at gospel meetings. I recall in the '90's when a woman played beautifully for the gospel meetings, she put feeling into the playing (ie "dynamics") and would add a few notes on hymns on the pre-meeting hymns. It was very nice and I thought set a positive tone for the meeting. After a few months, she was asked to change her playing to a no-dynamic, written-notes-only style. This requirement was a reflection of the rigidity in music that GIC reveals in his list. Have we lost our song, figuratively speaking? Meaning: our joy. In the mid 20th century, "sing-songs" were common amongst the friends in the region where I grew up. People used to practice singing harmony in those gatherings as well as in gospel mtgs and fellowship mtgs but to a much lesser extent today. Somewhere, that music disappeared or diminished. Music and joy are closely connected so with the music diminishing, it is probably a reflection of the joy diminishing. Much of the joy associated with the fellowship these days seems to be in the social connections.
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Oct 9, 2009 7:42:11 GMT -5
Hey guys, Very interesting comments on the dearth of musical accompaniment. Here in the mid-west part of the USA, I had not even heard that other instruments were EVER used in gospel mtgs. Very interesting!!!
Jason - thanks for your most thought provoking list. Unfortunately, I find most of those statements to be true for our area.
LW is in our area this year, and it would not surprise me if he reads here. Maybe we'll see a change this year....
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 9:33:50 GMT -5
No, it's always been bread and wine as far as I know...Eucharist is unheard of, sacrament might be used by a more educated friend or worker. Yes, that's right. However, I was really thinking about where he listed the three Sacraments--Baptism, Communion, and Holy Orders...wondering if sacrament is even in 2x2 terminology. I see there's been a comment on "the homeless ministry". I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment about it being listed as 'Holy Orders'.I think that the workers think of themselves as apostles in the main part that they do believe in Holy Orders but in a simplistic manner? I'm not sure
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 9:41:17 GMT -5
I am speaking of meetings, not of private life. Let me posit it in this fashion. If there were no pianos or organs (or keyboards - I will be comprehensive!) available for musical accompanyment in a gospel meeting, would somebody who could play the guitar be asked to step forward? Or the banjo? Or a flute? Violin? You surely are being disingenuous if you believe that it is standard practice to include a variety of instrumentation. This is an example of the greater rigidity compared with mid-20th century meetings. The violin was used to accompany gospel meeting singing in the area I was raised in. Also, people used to sing solo or in groups during convention meetings. In some ways there was greater flexibility than there is now. I think the "downer" for solos in conv. mtgs. was this...most times it was a brother worker, very rarely a sister worker....and I know sister workers well enough to know that since they're the reigning majority that they perhaps brought up the issue that "**** was being made too much of for his singing and it isn't godly." Whereas the underlying issue was some people not able to sing or have much talent were lost in the shambles and shorts got in a wrinkle, eh?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2009 9:48:27 GMT -5
I don't doubt that was the process for eliminating anyone from standing out. It's envy under the guise of humility.
Outstanding worker preaching sometimes comes under fire from their peers.........same thing occurring there.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2009 9:53:12 GMT -5
Sharon, I think you are quite right. Workers view themselves as being part of a Holy Order.......they just don't use that terminology.
We're much more like other churches than we care to recognize or admit. Just because we avoid the same terminology, it doesn't make us much different.
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 10:53:33 GMT -5
Hey guys, Very interesting comments on the dearth of musical accompaniment. Here in the mid-west part of the USA, I had not even heard that other instruments were EVER used in gospel mtgs. Very interesting!!! Jason - thanks for your most thought provoking list. Unfortunately, I find most of those statements to be true for our area. LW is in our area this year, and it would not surprise me if he reads here. Maybe we'll see a change this year.... In the last 10 yrs alone, I've not heard even a piano used though one usually available.
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 10:56:02 GMT -5
I don't doubt that was the process for eliminating anyone from standing out. It's envy under the guise of humility. Outstanding worker preaching sometimes comes under fire from their peers.........same thing occurring there. And definitely this is become more of a definite symptom of late years. Used to the prophetic and emphatic preachers were in wide demand...but it seems that more and more of the blase' and ones who will put you to sleep are the ones shipped here and there for convs and spec. mtgs. Go figure!
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 10:58:46 GMT -5
Sharon, I think you are quite right. Workers view themselves as being part of a Holy Order.......they just don't use that terminology. We're much more like other churches than we care to recognize or admit. Just because we avoid the same terminology, it doesn't make us much different. Well, it HAS been said on TMB before that the truth's fellowship is more like the Catholic then most any other denominations and it sure seems so as we get into the nitty-gritty, doesn't it? As you say they just don't use all the "educated words" to describe themselves....probably because of the "educated" factor in itself. I've found the Catholics by and large perhaps the most educated denomination yet....but then of course I've not mixed and mingled with a whole lot of others as well...so don't mean to down any one in that opinion! lah!
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Post by ScholarGal on Oct 9, 2009 11:04:25 GMT -5
In the last 10 yrs alone, I've not heard even a piano used though one usually available. Have you offered to play the piano? I heard a piano used at a gospel meeting about a month ago. I was a little jealous of the person who got to play it. That piano looked and sounded like an incredible instrument.
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 11:18:27 GMT -5
In the last 10 yrs alone, I've not heard even a piano used though one usually available. Have you offered to play the piano? I heard a piano used at a gospel meeting about a month ago. I was a little jealous of the person who got to play it. That piano looked and sounded like an incredible instrument. The workers do not want piano playing apparently for usually both or at least one of them does play and ALL know that I'm a pianist! So to "offer" is to be suggesting that they need to change their order of thought....it was they always used to asked me to play and there never was a time I refused...so nothing has changed as far as I am concerned...but I have noticed this in the western Midwest that most workers no longer used piano nor organ nor any other musical instrument in their gospel mtgs. Now to be fair, it is "THEIR" gospel mtg. and they have every right to organize it the way they see fit. But I have also heard it expressed among the workers throughout our area, that musical instruments are no longer wanted nor needed. And truthfully, since it is always filled with friends who know the songs and very few if any outsiders, it stands to reason they don't necessarily need a piano!
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 9, 2009 11:24:26 GMT -5
While living in Texas, I learned the reason the workers didn't use "keyboards" was so they didn't offend the Church of Christ folks who might attend gospel meetings and who don't approve of music in church...(had a church split over this issue, in fact).
I understood this was done in areas where there were there were a number of CofC followers...i.e. Texas.
However, while we lived in Longview, Dale Spencer asked an accomplished professing pianist to play at their gospel meetings, and we loved it.
I dont know what the practice is now in Texas...
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 9, 2009 11:30:31 GMT -5
And truthfully, since it is always filled with friends who know the songs and very few if any outsiders, it stands to reason they don't necessarily need a piano! Probably don't even need to sing either. Just say, "we will open the meeting with number 236. We will give everyone 4 minutes to read the song and then we will have a prayer". Most all of the gospel meetings I attended growing up had piano accompaniment. The gospel meeting I attended last year did not, and I noticed that the singing was rather 'heavy' to me. It may have just been me, but I didn't find it to be real uplifting although I sang along. Of course maybe my singing is why I didn't feel uplifted.... Scott
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 9, 2009 11:31:10 GMT -5
Have you offered to play the piano? I heard a piano used at a gospel meeting about a month ago. I was a little jealous of the person who got to play it. That piano looked and sounded like an incredible instrument. The workers do not want piano playing apparently for usually both or at least one of them does play and ALL know that I'm a pianist! So to "offer" is to be suggesting that they need to change their order of thought....it was they always used to asked me to play and there never was a time I refused...so nothing has changed as far as I am concerned...but I have noticed this in the western Midwest that most workers no longer used piano nor organ nor any other musical instrument in their gospel mtgs. Now to be fair, it is "THEIR" gospel mtg. and they have every right to organize it the way they see fit. But I have also heard it expressed among the workers throughout our area, that musical instruments are no longer wanted nor needed. And truthfully, since it is always filled with friends who know the songs and very few if any outsiders, it stands to reason they don't necessarily need a piano! Not long ago, my mother played the piano at gospel meetings, when there was one available. She is gone now, but it was in the midwest. But you have a point. The hymns are so beautiful when everyone knows them, and there is a harmony, that the piano n't necessarily needed. That being said, our home was a very musical one. When I was younger, when the workers would come over, there could be up to four or five different instruments playing and others singing. That is also a very beautiful way to hear the hymns.
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 11:37:45 GMT -5
And truthfully, since it is always filled with friends who know the songs and very few if any outsiders, it stands to reason they don't necessarily need a piano! Probably don't even need to sing either. Just say, "we will open the meeting with number 236. We will give everyone 4 minutes to read the song and then we will have a prayer". Most all of the gospel meetings I attended growing up had piano accompaniment. The gospel meeting I attended last year did not, and I noticed that the singing was rather 'heavy' to me. It may have just been me, but I didn't find it to be real uplifting although I sang along. Of course maybe my singing is why I didn't feel uplifted.... Scott Scott, I think the reason for NO musical instrument accompaniment at gospel mtgs. these days are the very same for the ones in which conv. and gospel mtg. soloist were eliminated. The workers who had no talent nor playing ability certainly felt left out and as it seems more and more of the workers are NOT musical, then less and less talent is required. And also as it is said, there is far less life and joy within the fellowship. I think one of the workers at Rogers Conv. a few years ago saw this coming for he preached about becoming too complacent. And complacent seems to be the "spirit" in most areas these days. Like everyone thinks they've got salvation sewed up simply by being a member of the fellowship...less Christ in all of us! Shame!
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 9, 2009 11:54:54 GMT -5
The workers who had no talent nor playing ability certainly felt left out and as it seems more and more of the workers are NOT musical, then less and less talent is required.Hmm... Too bad they didn't also eliminate the speaking requirements for those less talented huh? ;D Really too bad that it could be looked at this way. The 'gifts' we have are there for us to share with others. For some, singing and playing instruments is a wonderful talent. I remember some gals and guys I knew growing up that could get up in gospel meetings and sing in harmony together that would even get me to listen and pay attention. A few of them were boring and dumber than a box of rocks otherwise, but boy could they sing!!! (said from the perspective of when I was a kid...) Scott
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Post by JO on Oct 9, 2009 14:14:14 GMT -5
Of course, whether we have meeting songs accompanied by a violin or a guitar or a soloist or whatever is not the issue.
The issue is that even in my lifetime there has been a creeping rigidity and stifling of spontaneity.
A visiting overseer observed after we got a new overseer in the early 1980s that "the folks have lost the spring in their step". That about sums up the generation of overseers of the 80s and 90s.
Imagine if they had:
1. Acknowledged the fellowship's history when "The Secret Sect" was first published. 2. Adopted the NIV when it became the mainstream English bible. 3. Converted the hymns to contemporary English when they published the new hymn book. 4. Adopted George Walker's D&R policy worldwide. 5. Stopped teaching the commandments of men as doctrine and encouraged the leading of the Spirit in individual believers.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 9, 2009 14:23:21 GMT -5
No. 3: What is the F&W's belief about Jesus Christ?
Which of the following statements best describe the beliefs of the F&W? Your personal beliefs?
PLEASE NOTE: The following statements are SOLELY about Jesus.
NOTE: Beliefs regarding the trinity, Godhead, triune God, one-in-three persons, etc. statements are not included here. They are found in this earlier post: professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=14691&page=5#300886
As an independent, nondenominational church assuming no name… A. We/I believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for ungodly sinners. B. We/I believe in the eternal deity, the virgin birth, the spotless humanity and the vicarious death of the Lord Jesus Christ. C. We/I believe Jesus Christ was virgin born, sinless, died on the cross for sins, was raised from the dead on the third day, and is coming again. D. We/I believe that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate. He rose from the dead and is coming soon. F. We/I believe in (a) His eternal existence; (b) His incarnation and virgin birth; (c) His death on the cross as the substitutionary atonement for sin; (d) His literal, bodily resurrection from the dead; (e) His present ministry of intercession in heaven; and (f) His personal, future return to earth. G. We/I believe that Jesus Christ is the living Word, who became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. Hence, He is perfect Deity and true humanity united in one person forever. He lived a sinless life and voluntarily atoned for the sins of men by dying on the cross as their substitute, thus satisfying divine justice and accomplishing salvation for all who trust in Him alone. He rose from the dead in the same body, though glorified, in which He lived and died. He ascended bodily into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God the Father, where He, the only mediator between God and man, continually makes intercession for His own. H. We/I believe in the Virgin Birth and the Deity of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, who is also Son of Man, with two distinct natures in one Person forever. We believe the vicarious substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on the cross made atonement for the sin of the world, efficient for all who repent and believe. We believe in the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, which insures the resurrection of all believers who have received God's gift of eternal life. J. We/I believe that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and was truly the Son of Man and the Son of God. We believe in the literal resurrection of the crucified body of the Lord Jesus Christ, that He ascended into heaven and is presently in heaven acting on behalf of believers as their High Priest and Advocate. K. We/I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was virgin born that He was God incarnate; and that the purpose of the incarnation was to reveal God, redeem men, and rule over God's kingdom. We teach that our Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through the shedding of His blood and sacrificial death on the cross and that His death was voluntary, vicarious, substitutionary, propitiatory, and redemptive. We teach that our justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead and that He is now ascended to the right hand of the Father, where He now mediates as our Advocate and High Priest. We teach that Jesus Christ will return to earth. L. We/I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that He might reveal God and redeem sinful man. He accomplished this redemption by voluntarily giving Himself as a sinless, substitutionary sacrifice on the cross, thereby satisfying God’s righteous judgment against sin. After substantiating the accomplishment of that redemption and justification by His bodily resurrection from the grave, He ascended to the right hand of His Father, where He intercedes on behalf of those who trust Him. M. We/I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, The One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him. We believe that Jesus Christ is going to return in the clouds for His church before the tribulation that is coming on the whole earth, and that He will return and set up His kingdom on earth. N. We/I believe that according to the Father’s plan, the eternal Son humbled Himself and became incarnate, inseparably uniting undiminished deity with true humanity. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, died to pay in full the penalty for our sin, rose bodily and miraculously from the dead, ascended into heaven, and will come again in glory. O. We/I believe that Christ came to this earth to reveal God and to redeem man and that He died a vicarious substitutionary death upon the cross for the sins of man. We believe in the Virgin Birth and the Deity of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, who is also Son of Man, with two distinct natures in one Person forever. We believe the vicarious substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on the cross made atonement for the sin of the world, efficient for all who repent and believe. We believe in the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, which insures the resurrection of all believers who have received God's gift of eternal life. P. We/I believe that Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary and became flesh and blood without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins. On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death. He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator. Subjects covered in Statement of Belief:1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #1252. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #33. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #1964. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-2685. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 2956. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662 The doctrines below will follow soon...7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
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Post by sharon on Oct 9, 2009 18:06:23 GMT -5
"G. We believe that Jesus Christ is the living Word, who became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. Hence, He is perfect Deity and true humanity united in one person forever. He lived a sinless life and voluntarily atoned for the sins of men by dying on the cross as their substitute, thus satisfying divine justice and accomplishing salvation for all who trust in Him alone. He rose from the dead in the same body, though glorified, in which He lived and died. He ascended bodily into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God the Father, where He, the only mediator between God and man, continually makes intercession for His own. "
I am firmly convicted in the above, but am not aware of most F&W's feeling the same?
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Post by emy on Oct 9, 2009 19:41:37 GMT -5
I remember having keyboard accompaniment at gospel meeting as late as the 90's, and when we were learning the new hymns in the '87 book, we often had piano/keyboard music before the gospel meeting. I hadn't given too much thought to the lack of accompaniment recently, but maybe it's because more people/workers are good at singing now? In our area the workers take turns leading the hymns in gospel meetings, and stand in front of the microphone all through the hymn. So maybe it has something to do with the availability of microphones to keep the singing on track? I don't think solos or alternate accompaniment was ever intended as a showcase for talent. JMO And as far as hymn sings... who has time anymore to host or attend one? But if you do, give it a shot. I thought it was just our lack of able singers here in our immediate area that made the lack. We just aren't big singers, but often we will sing a bit when we gather together for some other reason.
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Post by placid-void on Oct 9, 2009 20:51:56 GMT -5
Tonight I miss my Mom. Glancing through the recent posts on this thread and reading about the keyboard accompaniment, I was transported back to a different time and a different place.
Suddenly, it is an early summer evening in a quiet little town in the late 50's. I just walked into a tent on a corner lot with my Mom and Dad and we have just sat down on old wooden chairs sitting on the uncut grass. 6 or 7 other people are scattered about and two fellows that I have know most of my life sit up front and smile as we walk in. After a little while one of the fellows up front nods toward my Mom and she moves to the front of the tent. She has a particularly Holy look and Holy walk as she approaches the old portable organ. I look at my Dad and we both start to giggle because we know this is Mom "getting in the spirit". But we also know how proud she is to be asked to play again for this gospel meeting. And even though I am giggling on the outside, my heart too swells in pride for my Mom.
She sits down in an old stright back wooden chair in front of this tiny wooden organ. The little stand that flips up to hold the hymn book is ornately carved but the rest of the organ is a plain pine box worn smooth by time and use. It is maybe 3 feet wide, maybe 3-4 feet tall and probably 20-22 inches deep. There are two pedals near the base that she begins to pump with her feet and you can hear the bellows start to fill. Then she lifts her arms and places her fingers upon the keys and begins to play.
And to the sweet and gentle sound of those melodies, I am carried once again back to the present where I can still hear her clear stong voice as she began to sing the first hymn of that gospel meeting, just as she had dones for more years than I can count.
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Post by placid-void on Oct 9, 2009 20:55:32 GMT -5
And. . . I also want to say . . . . "Thanks for the memories."
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Post by StAnne on Oct 9, 2009 21:17:00 GMT -5
Tonight I miss my Mom. She sits down in an old stright back wooden chair in front of this tiny wooden organ. The little stand that flips up to hold the hymn book is ornately carved but the rest of the organ is a plain pine box worn smooth by time and use. Sweet story. My mother used to play those organs. She played for a lot of funerals too.
And to your story of gospel meetings in tents...about 5 miles out of our little town, there are tent meetings. Every October for about the last 4-5 years a small church has an evangelist and (singing) family come to this area. They seem to have a good crowd even though we are in cool, cool Fall weather. I should ask what kind of heat they have. Surely something better than the 2 wood stoves in the big convention tent.
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