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Post by kiwi on Oct 11, 2009 4:48:59 GMT -5
Another disparity that I noticed is that one fellowship we used to go to had grey plush carpet, and then we went to a fellowship that had a cacky green lino, so there you go... shocking isn't it. And confusing!!! It plays on your mind Maybe it is time for us to realize that we are there to worship God rather than worshipping the fact that we do or don't play the piano with the hymns. That way it becomes far less confusing because we come to this amazing revelation that whether we do or don't have the piano, it is completely irrelevant to our service to God. And because of this irrelevance, this is one less reason that a "doctrine" needs to be written. In fact, I haven't seen any good reasons yet. Since none of it is relevant, then how do you get the workers to stop singing hymns at gospel meetings? Some outsiders just came for the Gospel discussion and did not want to listen to hymns. Is not the Gospel more important then signing hymns? Why do we want the workers to stop singing? So outsiders are now the rule?
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Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on Oct 11, 2009 6:20:23 GMT -5
For instance, I would love to see the psalms being sung directly as they are printed in the Bible in the same manner in which Christ and his Apostles sung at the Last Supper. As Paul said, when we come together one of the things we ought to do is sing psalms. Take a trip. Head for Northern Ireland - Belfast - Shaftesbury Sq and there you will find a church of the Reformed Presbyterian Church in Ireland. Psalms only, with no accompaniment. www.rpc.org/page/beliefs&page=5Very lovely indeed once the choir got going (presuming all their voices turned up ). I prefer what my music teacher used to call "straight up and down music". /caff
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Post by placid-void on Oct 11, 2009 7:06:20 GMT -5
Even if they're written by non-2x2 workers. Oh my gracious! Someone, tell me quick, was King James I a 2X2er? How about the 47 scholars? No, huh. Couldn't be . . . that was pre-1897. And everybody knows there were no 2X2ers pre-1897! Oh my gracious! What to do? All those years living in sin and folly! Oh please, someone finish the doctrine quickly so that I may know precisely how you all would have me to live and worship. My deepest gratitude.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 11, 2009 8:46:31 GMT -5
ynot wrote:
You can use GIC's doctrine above (post #128) and "have patient" in the meantime while the doctrine is posted in segments, as Nate often says.
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Post by placid-void on Oct 11, 2009 8:52:51 GMT -5
Cool, I think I will go with the patient since I will probably be one afore long.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 11, 2009 8:56:58 GMT -5
Cool, I think I will go with the patient since I will probably be one afore long. Nice to know you're waiting with baited breath. However, be sure to give GIC's doctrine every consideration as many have indicated that it is pretty accurate and spot on.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 11, 2009 9:00:13 GMT -5
Perhaps it would be a good idea for GIC to start a new thread with his doctrine in Post #128, so it stays at the top of a thread and isn't buried in this one.
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Post by todd on Oct 11, 2009 9:10:05 GMT -5
I agree Todd, hymns are another way to hear the gospel. Even if they're written by non-2x2 workers. jesusonly, it sounds to me that after all this time that you are still struggling with thinking that there really is such a thing as 2x2, that you still use that concept to argue a point. You (and others) seem to still believe that there is some sort of exclusivity that doesn't exist for you to make comments such as these... I agree Todd. Form and method and religious system at best facilitates worship. When it becomes "the only way" it becomes idolatry, and actually hinders the worship of God. I can tell you that the exclusivity only exists in the minds of those who do not understand. Doesn't the simple fact that you mentioned above about there being hymns in a book that are sung in meetings and the words used in preaching which were written by people who would be described by you as "non-2x2", give you some sort of indication that people don't think that there aren't true Christians who are "non-2x2"? Getting back to the fact that there is no such thing as 2x2, I remember being part of a conversation a while ago where some thought it would be appropriate that a name was taken by the group, but obviously those who were for that had forgotten that we are going to be judged as individuals and no belonging to any group or name will help and I guess the majority of us understand that, and have even heard the workers (multiple times) saying that coming to meetings is not what is going to save you. Isn't this yet another sign that people believe that belonging to "2x2" isn't some exclusive thing that inside means salvation and outside means no salvation? Yes, I know people have heard preachers say that "this" is the "only way". What people mistake is what the preacher meant by "this". Most likely they were reading from the bible so it shouldn't be too hard to work out what "only way" they were referring to. The fact the many people (including me) have refused to take on any particular "name" but just be a profess to be a Christian, should be the biggest indication that says "we are not making ourselves exclusive or separate to any other Christian but we are nothing but individuals before God and will be judged as such. So again, no such thing as "2x2" exists, except in the minds of certain ones, and this enables them to create their own assumptions that it was this imaginary religion that they created in their own mind that the preacher must have been talking about when they said "only way"... yet the preacher didn't even know that this imaginary religion even existed in the mind of the person they were talking to... They just probably preached to them with the assumption that most rational people would deduct that if they were talking about the way of God being the only way, that they were talking about the way of God Anyway, how this all relates back to the topic of the thread is that before you write a "2x2 doctrine", you have to have a club called "2x2". And then you would have to get the board of directors to agree on whether they were going to include constraints in the doctrine such as whether there could be music instruments used along with the hymns, and which particular meetings could or couldn't have accompaniment, or whether there was particular instruments that couldn't be used, and also if the reason why it couldn't be used was relative to either the shape or the tone of the instrument (ie: if it was ok to use a keyboard but have it set to guitar tones, especially if guitars themselves were outlawed). Hmmm... I think most people (including me) are going to say "Hang it, I am not joining that club... I might just go off and serve God instead"... and they could, because God has given his own set of comprehensive instructions for those who want to do just that.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 11, 2009 9:26:47 GMT -5
The fact the many people (including me) have refused to take on any particular "name" but just be a profess to be a Christian, should be the biggest indication that says "we are not making ourselves exclusive or separate to any other Christian but we are nothing but individuals before God and will be judged as such.Does that statement mean that since you and I both profess to being Christians that you would have no problem sharing in the emblems with me or that I would be able to attend your Sunday morning meeting and pray and give my testimony? If in fact you are not separate from other Christians, (nor exclusive) then that would be a pretty good indicator of the truth of your statement. Scott
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Post by Annan on Oct 11, 2009 9:54:14 GMT -5
Not that God would be judging anyone's singing or carrying a tune How do you know? Ah... well... erh... In that case, I can only assume that God was holding his ears during our regular Sunday services.
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Post by placid-void on Oct 11, 2009 10:04:41 GMT -5
Anyway, how this all relates back to the topic of the thread is that before you write a "2x2 doctrine", you have to have a club called "2x2". I agree with todd. The whole exercise reminds me of when I was a little kid and one of my little friends would coming running up while we were all playing outside and say: "Hey, let's build a club house!. . . . I'll be the leader!. . . . ." But then . . . . along comes 1 Corinthians 13:11 - "When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things." Oh, the sweet innocence of childhood.
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Post by placid-void on Oct 11, 2009 10:23:26 GMT -5
Does that statement mean that since you and I both profess to being Christians that you would have no problem sharing in the emblems with me or that I would be able to attend your Sunday morning meeting and pray and give my testimony? Good Morning Scott, As you probably remember, I haven't been to Sunday morning meetings in a long, long time, so I have no clue what does or doesn't go on anymore. But I am curious. Suppose your heart was open (no agendas) and you felt honest and sincere and you picked up and went to a Sunday morning meeting and participated in any manner that you felt appropriate as a Christian in that setting, what is the absolute worst thing that could/would happen to you. In what substantive ways (i.e. as it relates to your own personal faith) would it differ from any other Christian service you might attend on any other Sunday. I ask this as an honest and sincere question. I am trying to figure out who the bogeyman really is, where does he come from? Hope you don't take my question offensively, because it is not intended to be offensive. There is just so much that I don't understand.
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Post by Annan on Oct 11, 2009 11:31:55 GMT -5
. . . . along comes 1 Corinthians 13:11 - "When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things." Oh, the sweet innocence of childhood. How does this reconcile with our needing to become like little children in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
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Post by moralityagain on Oct 11, 2009 11:47:15 GMT -5
Well, I do not think it is fair to God for everyone to hold their services at the same times. Imagine God sitting there trying to listen to millions of prayers all at the same time and also being busy with trying to help all those who testify to say the right things. This is not fair to God and he does not need this kind of overload. Yes, He is into the idea of having people worship him day and night and sing songs about him forever. But, having to listen to all the people that pray to Him all the time and trying to figure out which ones to ignore and which ones to answer and what to tell them or how to fix their problems must be frustrating to say the least. Especially if they are praying in a bunch of different languages all at the same time. I am surprised that he just doesn't yell down from heaven once in a while and just say "shut the heck up, take a number and wait your turn will you!" People are just so greedy to want to get God's attention and some of them even go around praying at every meal and in the morning and in the evening to say nothing of meetings or church services. Do you think God likes to have to individually bless all the food he gets asked to? I bet God hates it in the morning and at lunch time and supper time when everyone gets to asking him to bless stuff like hot dogs and ham and eggs and roast beef and whatever. And, what if breakfast in one country lines up with the supper time in another? Wowee! He must be so busy trying to bless food and listening to prayers about personal problems and trying to keep track of all the hairs on everyones heads and things it must be just frightening. Also he is supposed to keep track of the falling of sparrows and the weather and planetary problems out in space and pretty much everything. So, having to bless bowls of soup and sandwiches has got to be an annoyance. At least on Saturdays when God likes to rest it might be nice if everyone just got off his case with all their little problems and blessing food and everything ansd just let him relax and go golfing or watch some old "I Love Lucy" or whatever God likes to do on his day of rest. Then, he might be a little more ready to handle the excessive load of everyone asking for everything in the world the next morning.
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Post by emy on Oct 11, 2009 11:51:30 GMT -5
However, be sire to give GIC's doctrine every consideration as many have indicated that it is pretty accurate and spot on. Many from which "camp"?
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Post by sharon on Oct 11, 2009 12:04:45 GMT -5
~~ Singing hymns help the listeners to relax, be in tune with the Spirit ;D before hearing the gospel message. Having the appetizers before the main course. Since even Jesus sang psalms with His Apostles, one has to pretty much understand that singing has its' place within "worshipping" in spirit and in truth....that said, of course, I'm speaking about appropriate songs....don't want to sing about whiskey, wine, women and song....within a religious mtg. that is!
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Post by sharon on Oct 11, 2009 12:06:14 GMT -5
I didn't say the hymns weren't relevant. If people want the Gospel, the hymns are yet another way to hear it. Many hymns have words taken directly from the bible. I agree Todd, hymns are another way to hear the gospel. Even if they're written by non-2x2 workers. Some people don't seem to realize that one of the favorite hymns in our book is written by a man who is a international celebrity that has millions of dollars worth of wealth! lah! What a sin!
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Post by emy on Oct 11, 2009 12:08:03 GMT -5
I agree Todd, hymns are another way to hear the gospel. Even if they're written by non-2x2 workers. Some people don't seem to realize that one of the favorite hymns in our book is written by a man who is a international celebrity that has millions of dollars worth of wealth! lah! What a sin! Clue us in!
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Post by placid-void on Oct 11, 2009 12:28:26 GMT -5
How does this reconcile with our needing to become like little children in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Wow, that is a great question! Hmmmm. I am not aware of specific passages in the sacred texts that would reconcile the contradiction you have identified. So I guess each person must work out the apparent conflict in their own way. As for myself, I think that there are many child-like characteristics well worth emulating even as I also try to speak, think and reason like an adult. For example, I think that child-like joy, curiosity, creativity and expressiveness are all great attributes for an adult when practiced with moderation (Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics). What do think about this formulation.
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Post by JO on Oct 11, 2009 13:48:45 GMT -5
I can tell you that the exclusivity only exists in the minds of those who do not understand. Todd, is it OK if we form a delegation from TMB to have fellowship and break bread with you in your Sunday AM meeting?
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Post by sharon on Oct 11, 2009 13:58:06 GMT -5
I can tell you that the exclusivity only exists in the minds of those who do not understand. Todd, is it OK if we form a delegation from TMB to have fellowship and break bread with you in your Sunday AM meeting? And when we do, is it OK to just jump up and run over to the piano and break forth into song and dance....simply because we don't want to be held to a set form of worship....maybe some of the musicians in the group would be moved to worship in song and dance?
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Post by sharon on Oct 11, 2009 14:05:15 GMT -5
You're allowed a piano/organ playing in the Sun a.m. mtg? If so, then there is another disparity of the fellowship! How much more confusing can it become. Kiwi is probably thinking of the Wed PM meetings rather than Sunday AM. To me, sameness the world over can be a weakness rather than a strength. Sameness can be a sign of stagnation. Ironically in the beginning days of our fellowship William Irvine's spontaneity was a breath of fresh air: One never knew from first to last what was going to come next with him, sometimes hardly any sermon, at other times nearly all sermons; sometime give out a hymn, and from some thought therein start talking to end of meeting and never sing a hymn at all; sometimes sing half a hymn standing, remainder sitting; sometimes nearly all racy anecdotes with plenty smiles and laughter, at other times soul-stirring exhortation, backed by sad and tragic experiences, etc. All this added freshness and life to the words of one whose intense earnestness and wholehearted zeal and devotion none of us had seen before...www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.phpPerhaps there is something about "spontaneity" in all things, but it could easily become bedlam not to have some "order of worship" esp. when dealing with numbers of humans, each with their own definition of "spontaneity"!
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Post by Annan on Oct 11, 2009 14:20:48 GMT -5
How does this reconcile with our needing to become like little children in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? ...I think that there are many child-like characteristics well worth emulating even as I also try to speak, think and reason like an adult. For example, I think that child-like joy, curiosity, creativity and expressiveness are all great attributes for an adult when practiced with moderation (Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics). What do think about this formulation. Yep. Adults tend to close their minds to the wonders of childhood. As adults we no longer freely express our grief, our love, our joy... We are told to act like adults. What the heck does that mean? I remember once finding my young daughter in her bed laughing with hilarity. When questioned, she said she and God were telling jokes. How sad it is that we take God from children and place him out of reach. With that in mind, I can't wait to get my hands on a grandchild. My daughter said she wants me to teach her children my ways. Of course she will also raise them to know what she believes and what her husband believes. I raised my children in a multi-religious world and they seem the better for it. In my opinion that is.
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Post by sharon on Oct 11, 2009 15:48:09 GMT -5
Didn't Paul write in one of his epistles...as a child....but now am a man and put away childish things?
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Post by emy on Oct 11, 2009 15:51:39 GMT -5
. Perhaps there is something about "spontaneity" in all things, but it could easily become bedlam not to have some "order of worship" esp. when dealing with numbers of humans, each with their own definition of "spontaneity"! How do these 2 thoughts come together, Sharon?
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Post by sharon on Oct 11, 2009 15:53:20 GMT -5
. Perhaps there is something about "spontaneity" in all things, but it could easily become bedlam not to have some "order of worship" esp. when dealing with numbers of humans, each with their own definition of "spontaneity"! How do these 2 thoughts come together, Sharon? Todd's previous thoughts as to not having to holding to doctrine, form....
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Post by placid-void on Oct 11, 2009 16:34:04 GMT -5
Didn't Paul write in one of his epistles...as a child....but now am a man and put away childish things? Sharon are you referring to 1 Corinthians 13:11 (mentioned in reply #244, this thread)? Or did you have another verse in mind?
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Post by open mind on Oct 11, 2009 16:37:14 GMT -5
Hey guys, Very interesting comments on the dearth of musical accompaniment. Here in the mid-west part of the USA, I had not even heard that other instruments were EVER used in gospel mtgs. Very interesting!!! Jason - thanks for your most thought provoking list. Unfortunately, I find most of those statements to be true for our area. LW is in our area this year, and it would not surprise me if he reads here. Maybe we'll see a change this year.... In the last 10 yrs alone, I've not heard even a piano used though one usually available. In Aus, only ever pianos (or keyboards) used in Meetings, Gospel Meetings....we do however have music nights (and sometimes weekends) where all the people who can play instruments play and we sing hymns...its awesome to hear
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