Thought it might be fun to try this idea, of highlighting each week one post that we have particularly enjoyed or appreciated.
There is no agenda, other than an attempt to encourage posts of a good standard. The criteria could be a post that is spiritually uplifting, or funny, or relevant, or just plain good for no particular reason. In the interests of balance, we will try to share the choice around amongst admin, the three mods, Rob and Ross our specialist mods, and any other TMB members who like to nominate a particular post.
I'll start with this one that just popped out of the blue..
Thanks to pianoman.
Admin By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
Re: Why the cruelty? « Reply #29 on Jun 6, 2008, 10:19 am »
This is a place to discuss God and his wishes for us as his children. That includes letting His Son die on the cross for the dumbest, cruelest, most ignorant person that has ever been on this planet. LOVE needs to be the main thing here, even to those that are incapable of showing it or understanding it. Imagine this......As Jesus lay there while being nailed to the cross, he had that same love for the man that was driving those nails in his hands. We don't know what that man felt, but we know that Jesus, in his final hours and in great pain had love for the man....."Father forgive them.....................
Hey thar Texas Friends 'n Workers! A big ol' hearty Welcome, to this 'ere Truth Meetings Board (also called th' TMB fer short).
Now if this is yer first time in this 'ere place, yer prolly thinkin' "Holy Buckets Louise! What a rowdy place!" Well, yer right 'bout that! This is one rowdy place but y'all 'r known for bein' a tough lot so I'm gonna give you a few pointers ta help ya git by then turn ya loose.
Now I'm a warnin' ya: I'm shootin' strait so this'll 'av some sting to it.
Things get mean and nasty 'round 'ere sometimes so thicken' yer skin, put on yer cow-dung goggles, and pull up yer hip-waders.
The topic here is Truth (yes, yer religion, with workers, friends, special meet'n, meet'n in homes, volley-ball potlucks, an' sneakin' jolly-ranchers and smarties outta those noisy wrappers durin' the main speaker at convention).
Truth and the Friends is called a lotta things 'ere so keep up.
2x2ism, The Fellowship, The Way, Irvinism, and Cult all mean "Truth". 2x2s, f&w, brainwash victims, and cultist all mean "friends and/or workers". (Hey, don't take offense, just keep readin'.) Exes, idiots, and thoughtless jackasses are "people who left Truth".
So thars yer dictionary. Now let's git this done.
'Bout half the folks here are a good, kindly, sort 'an what they post is usually nice edifyin' stuff that makes yer belly all warm. They don' post a lot tho'. 'Nuff said 'bout them.
The oth'r half is wild crazy folk 'an what theys a postin is a lotta time nuttier than a blind midget on back of a horse widda belly full o pickled corn in a cactus patch durin' a hail storm. These loonies do most the postin' here, jus' so ya know.
Why's they crazy? Well, lots o reasons really:
Some of 'em got beat to much as young 'uns who wouldn't stay still 'an quiet in meet'n.
Some of 'em got picked on to much as tykes for be'in diffrnt at school.
Some of 'em went nuts when they learnt 'bout Truth bein' started by a man (yup sorry but it really was) or Truth havin some people who's kickin' folks outta Truth (yup really true) or Truth havin' some workers 'an some friends who likes havin' sex with lil' kids (yup sick but true) or Truth havin' some people who lie and cover up all this stuff (yup true) or a whole buncha stuff I ain't got time ta talk 'bout.
Some of 'em went nuts 'cause they'd been lied to all thar life 'bout all the stuff I jus' said.
Some of 'em went nuts 'cause they forced their brains to not believe all the stuff I jus' said. (They call it denial.)
Some of 'em went nuts when they's brain tried contemplating it's possible Truth isn't th' only way ta heaven.
Some of 'em went nuts when they left Truth 'an their friends 'an family disowned and shunned 'em.
Some of 'em went nuts when they's kicked out o Truth.
Some of 'em went nuts when they figured out leavin' Truth would make everyone they know madder than a hatter at 'em and prolly disown and/or shun 'em.
Some of 'em went nuts 'cause all their friends was doin' it an' they figured they would too.
Some of 'em went nuts 'cause o plain 'ol bad luck in they genetics.
An' o course thars always th' case o combination o more than one of th' above.
Thars prolly more reasons for 'em bein' nuts but that's all I'm thinkin' right now.
What ev'r ya do, don' let th' loonies git to ya. If they turn an' attack ya jes feel sorry fer 'em. Oh, an' 'nother thing, try 'n enjoy th show.
That's all th' advice fer now but this should be 'nuff ta git ya started anyhow.
Sometimes people get tense, emotional, and prone to vicious arguments. It helps to be reminded that most posters here share one experience in common--an association with meetings or convention. A good laugh does wonders for the soul and the attitude.
The xkcd cartoon Internet Argument (also posted this week by calleduntoliberty) shows how a little "common experience" goes a long way toward civil discussion.
In any case, the Bible relates that the prayers of a righteous man (or woman, I am very sure!) availeth much. The only way I know to be completely righteous is by claiming Christ's blood as one's Kinsman Redeemer, and begging for HIS imparted righteousness. The combined effect of those praying can bring much to come to pass, which I believe God might not otherwise be bothered with..like something apparently as inconsequential as this forum.
Admin By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
I've heard this subject spoken on at fellowship meetings, gospel meetings, conventions, special meetings as well as other places. I'm still pondering this persons take on the subject.
J u d g e N o t ? BY JACOB PRASCH
DO NOT SPEAK AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, brethren. He who speaks against a brother, or judges his brother, speaks against the law, and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge of it (James 4:11). Do not speak against one another. Do not speak against your brethren. Do not judge your brother. Is that what it says? Look at verse 4 of the same chapter. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility to-ward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (James 4:4). You adulteresses! Do not judge your brother! From the pen of the same apostle, in the distance of a few paragraphs, in almost the same breath that he is saying "do not judge," James calls worldly churches "adulteresses."
SPIRITUAL ADULTERY James is probably the oldest book of the New Testament. We know from its Hebraic background, from the way it draws on synagogue leadership structure and the Scriptures, that it was obviously written to Jewish Christians. James is using the Hebrew concept of ladydom or harlotry. Whenever Israel went into idolatry, God calls it "adultery." Idolatry equals spiritual adultery. Israel was to be God's woman, in much the same way as the church is the bride of Christ. The church being unfaithful is like Israel being unfaithful. That idolatry is called "adultery." It is a very strong term in Hebrew, a very strong concept in the Jewish mind.
BY THEIR FRUIT… Every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:17-20). Jesus said that you can judge someone by their fruit. In the same chapter, He says, Do not judge lest you be judged (Matthew 7:1). First it is, "Judge not lest you be judged," yet He goes on to say, "You will know them by their fruits." People involved with Toronto and Pensacola say, "You know Toronto/ Pensacola by its fruit and there is good fruit from it." Jesus never said that you would know a phenomena by its fruit. He said that you would know a person by their fruit. More than that, even judging a phenomenon by its fruit, you can see that it is not the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is self-control, not drunkenness and lunacy.
CONTRADICTIONS? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement (John 7:24). First Jesus says, "Judge not lest you be judged," but then He says, "Judge with right judgement." James appeared to contradict himself. Now Jesus seems to contradict himself. Jesus said, "Don't do it," then He tells you how to do it. James said, "Don't do it," straight after he did it. Therefore you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgement, for in that you would judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things (Romans 2:1). Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things that are hidden in darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5). But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God (Ro-mans 14:10). For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this [the guy in question here was involved in an incestu-ous relationship with his father's wife ], as though I were present (1 Corinthians 5:3). Over and over, Paul says, "Don't judge." But then he passes judgment. Jesus says, "Don't judge," but then he says to do it and shows you how. James says, "Don't judge," but then he does it. Why the contradictions?
GOD IS THE JUDGE If God says in the Bible that something is wrong, and we see someone or some church do that thing, we are not judging them, it is the Word of God that judges. The Hebrew name, "Jehoshaphat" means Jehovah has judged. That is not me or you judging. We are simply acknowledging, "This is what God says." James was not calling worldly churches "adulteresses." The Word of God says that, if we are attached to this world, we are an adulteress church. Paul was not saying that the man involved with his step-mother was immoral. Paul was saying that the Word of God says that person was immoral. If God says that something is plainly wrong, that is not you or me judging, that is God judging. That is what it means when it says, "Judge with right judgement." Judging with right judgement means judging with God's judgement, not with our own. There is a big problem here -- there are things that I would not do, but which are not necessarily wrong for someone else.
PEOPLE'S OPINIONS I know of a case where some believers, after their wedding, went to a discotheque. (I would not go to a discotheque unless it was to give out tracts.) I did not feel a peace about going, but I am not going to make a big deal out of it, no matter what my own misgivings or feelings. I know of another case in Ireland where, at a Christian wedding, people danced. Other people became indignant and began yelling, "You're backsliders," and stormed out of the wedding, creating a big scene. It split a church. That is people judging. The word "Laodicea" has to do in the Greek with "people's opinions, people's judgements." We have no right to make a judgement of another person, but once God says something is right or wrong, that is not us judging.
ANAKRINO -- TO DISCERN The Greek word for "judge" is krino. If you put the prefix "ana" in front of the word "krino," you get a variation on the idea of judging, which is "to discern." But he who is spiritual judges [anakrino] all things, yet he himself is judged [anakrino] by no man (1 Corinthians 2:15). God, in His Word, commands us to anakrino. It is not a right; it is not a privilege; it is not something that is advisable. We are commanded to do it. And if you do not discern, you lack wisdom. There is a reason why false teachers will not stand up publicly and debate someone like Hank Hangraaff or Dave Hunt. People who will stand up and say, "That is not Scriptural." "That is not right." "I discern that this is not of God," are practicing wisdom. The reason why Michael Brown backed out of his debate with me over Pensacola, and why Jim McConnell backed out of his debate with me over British Israelism is that they lack wisdom. Those who practice wisdom, cannot themselves be judged by anyone. Because they anakrino, they cannot be anakrino-ed. That is why those others are afraid of them.
DIAKRINO -- TO DECIDE I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren? (1 Corinthians 6:5). Another prefix which changes the meaning of krino is "dia." Diakrino means to "render a decision." Is something right or wrong? Is someone's behavior right or wrong morally? Is it Scriptural or unscriptural? Is it of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil? The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul commands that we are to diakrino. We are not permitted to diakrino. We are not advised to diakrino. We are not privileged to diakrino. We are commanded to diakrino. It is not that judging is acceptable. Rather, to fail to judge is unacceptable.
NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO THE SECULAR AUTHORITIES? About two months ago a woman and her husband contacted us, very distressed. They had a four year old girl who was the victim of semi-penetrated sex in a church. She was molested by a fourteen year old boy, who was supposedly a Christian and whose parents had been going to that same church for years. This little girl was devastated. She drew me a picture, and as soon as I saw the picture, I knew what it was. Now, I do not have much time for secular psychology. I believe in Biblical psychology, but I do believe in psychology. Biblical psychology is based in the book of Proverbs. If you want to know why human beings behave and act the way they do, and think the way they do, read Proverbs. That is the best book of sociology and psychology there is. I can agree with human psychology to the degree that it is based on Biblical psychology. Secular psychology is godless, and sees man as a two dimensional being. It concerns me that so many evangelicals have gotten into secular psychology and pop psychology. The little girl drew a picture of a house. Inside the house there were four windows and a door. Each face inside the house was female, there were no male faces. And she drew a picture of herself, outside. There was no pelvis. There was no pubic area. That, according to pediatric psychiatrists, is a very frequent characteristic of drawings by children who have been sexually abused. Children of that age will say things with pictures and drawings that they cannot express verbally. No men and she herself had no mid-section. Her parents told me, "We don't know what to do. We go to a Baptist church and the pastor can't advise us because this four-teen year old boy is a Christian, and, based on 1 Corinthians, we are not allowed to go to the secular authorities about another believer. So, according to his parents, we can't tell the police or the court what has happened. We are at our wit's end; we don't know what to do. Our daughter is traumatized."
CIVIL LAW / CRIMINAL LAW 1 Corinthians 6 refers to Roman law. (The systems of jurisprudence in Britain, Australia and America are based on the original model in Rome.) 1 Corinthians 6 is talking about civil law, not criminal law; it is talking about suing someone under civil law, about litigation, it is not talking about criminal law. It is 1 Corinthians 5 that talks about an immoral person. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother [any so-called Christian] if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging [krino] outsiders? Do you not judge [krino] those who are within the church? (1 Cor-inthians 5:11-12) We judge those who are within the church, who are guilty of immorality. Do not even associate with the person. Chapter 6 is not talking about criminal law. It is talking about civil law. That fourteen-year-old should have been dealt with under the criminal law. His identity would have been protected by the court because of his age. If something was not done for that kid at the age of fourteen, by the age of eighteen his life would have been destroyed. He would have been in an institution for pedophiles. But this fourteen-year-old had a chance. He should have been brought before the authorities for his own good, and also so that the little girl could have seen justice being done. If this kind of stuff is not dealt with by the church immediately, what is going to happen when these people get older? The victims are traumatized for their whole lives. It affects their sexuality when they grow up. And that church could not even give a Biblical answer! (It was probably a good thing it was a Baptist minister. He could not give a biblical answer, but if it had been a Pentecostal minister, he probably would have tried to cast demons out of the little girl!) I talked to my friend's wife, who is a Christian pediatric psychiatrist, and I showed the pictures to a Christian pediatric psychologist. They both agreed with the advice I gave the parents. And the parents referred the matter to the criminal authorities. But what were these other ones saying? "Do not judge." "You cannot go to the authorities about another Christian and you cannot judge another Christian." What were they doing? Giving people a license to sexually abuse little kids? This is what happens when the church goes away from God's Word. We are not allowed to diakrino, we are commanded to diakrino; but it has to do with more than just people.
JUDGING PROPHECY And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others [diakrino] pass judgement (1 Corinthians 14:29). We are commanded to judge prophecy. But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And you may say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?" When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). Jeremiah 14 and Jeremiah 28 says the same thing. Jesus warned that there would be many false prophets in the last days. We do not stone them to death any more, but the sin is no less serious. They shall die if they do not repent. We are not under the law, but under grace; but their "ministries" should be stoned. 1 Corinthians 14:29 does not say that we are entitled to diakrino prophets or prophecies, rather we are commanded to judge prophets and prophecies. On this basis, Rodney Howard Browne is a false prophet. On this basis, John Wimber was a false prophet. On this basis, Rick Joyner is a false prophet. And on this basis, Paul Cain is a false prophet. Now, that is not my judgement. I cannot krino anybody. The things that God has said will krino. I have to anakrino. I have to discern. Is this of God or is this of man? No, it is not for me to judge. I have to diakrino, render a decision on whether it is morally right or wrong, by biblical standards. The founders of the Mormon cult and the Jehovah Witnesses were false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen. The Roman Catholic nun, Lucia, from Fatima, in Portugal, is a false prophet; she predicted things that failed to happen. John Wimber and Paul Cain and Rick Joyner (as well as John Kilpatrick, Michael Brown and Gerald Coates) are false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen. Do I have the right to say that? No, not the right, but the responsibility to say it, the command from my God in heaven to say it. That is not my judgment; it is what God says about these people. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If you fail to diakrino, you are failing to keep His commandments. If you fail to diakrino, you will let these same people go on giving people "words" from their own flesh or from Satan. People like that should be brought to account.
JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, "Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countrymen, or the alien who is with him" (Deuteronomy 1:16). That was not advice; that was a command. Just look at what has happened to our secular society. Everybody is a "victim." It does not matter that he got blind drunk and he was driving at 90 miles an hour through a village and killed a little kid on a bicycle. He came from a broken home: he is a "victim." It does not matter. I tried to talk to a prostitute the other day. "I do this because my father hung himself." That was her argument. "I came from a bad situation." I said, "You just told me that your sister goes to university and she came from the same background, and she thinks that what you are doing is terrible. Isn't she a victim, too?" Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more in society. But how can we expect society to live up to God's standards, when the church will not live up to God's standards. I came from a bad situation. My father drank. I was a drug addict by the age of sixteen, and I have no doubt whatsoever that, if Jesus had not intervened in my life, I would be dead by now or a destroyed person of some kind. It is only because of Him that I went to university and got married and did the things I have been privileged to do. Left to myself, I would not have amounted to anything. Nonetheless, I am responsible for my own life and my own choices.
SALT AND LIGHT If the church will not uphold God's standards of responsibility, how can we expect our society to be any different? If we are not upholding His standards, how can we be salt and light to a society that has turned it's back on God? No wonder there is crime! The main reason for the moral and social decline of our society is not because of the unsaved people; it is because of the lukewarm church.
KRISIS -- HEAVEN OR HELL There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis. For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22). The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.
KRITES -- THE JUDGE OF ALL But you have come… to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [ krites ] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23). God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.
HUPO-KRITES -- PHARISEES If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do. Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites." This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite [hupokrites], first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5). We do not krites and we especially do not hupo-krites.
KRITIKOS -- TO DISCERN For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12). Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tell where the bone ends and where the marrow begins. The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference. Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins. When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people are caught up with things not overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind. We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.
SUMMARY Judge not? What does the Bible say?
1. We never judge from our opinions.
2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil?"
3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.
4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.
6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.
7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.
Jean, this is the best news we've heard in ages! All I can do is just repeat what others have said here - you are an inspiration - your courage in coming forward has taught us better how to deal with CSA and has saved countless other children from having to go through the same experience.
I nominate your thank you post as TMB POST OF THE YEAR - this is the result we'd like to see for every soul who has been wounded and hurt. It is proof that healing comes when people are willing to step forward, reach out and do the right thing, even for an old wrong. I just want to say 'thank you' to the workers who had a part in this as well. This is what it's all about!! Building bridges, mending, healing, loving one another. This is the spirit of Christ in action.
I would like to Thank everyone who had a part in Ray Hoffman talking to my Dad and Brother. This has made such a change in my life. This took a lot of prayer, calls, meeting, and risks and you were willing to do this for me. At first I was kinda in shock and didn't know how to express my feelings, but everyday gets better. It has made an awesome difference in my family relationship. I'm not ashamed to be around my Dad and he is not ashamed of me. This morning he hugged me. This makes me cry for joy. My brother tells me he loves me. Ray and all those behind the scene --This is truely an answered prayer.
Wow...I just read through some of the posts here, and I can't believe how much speculating people do in regard to a "question board for workers and friends", instead of just communicating.
Why worry so much about what might happen, could happen, should happen? Why not just move ahead one step at a time, using common courtesy, love and genuine respect. All topics are open for discussion, since we represent a wide variety of questions, concerns and input.
Let's just enjoy interaction with one another, and I'm sure we'll be quite able to deal with whatever obstacles cross our path. Let's consider this a starting point and begin with trusting one another. If/when that trust is jeopardized, we can openly/honestly discuss that and deal with it.
I understand that, in many cases, trust issues already prevail, and I can appreciate the difficulty in moving ahead without trying to resolve those first. However, I suspect (now I'm speculating that in the process of our efforts of building bridges, we will begin to sort through some of those deeply heartfelt emotions.
DC: I really hope you choose not to leave, or that you change your mind. I REALLY like having you on this board, and sometimes when the board is full of stupid bickering (which it has been lately), I just quickly scan for a few names, and yours is one of them. Juli
Re this situation... I, personally, can say that I love Randy (even though I've never met him in person). I think he has a great heart. Every once in a while, though, he goes postal (sorry, Scott!) A few days ago there were mutilated babies on almost all of the threads on the first page. I'm not sure if that's connected, but I've seen Ran's tantrums before, and they're not pretty. I wish he could control himself, because I really enjoy a lot of his posts. Maybe for the most part his posts are less offensive than others mentioned here (who really just seem to come here to pick the same old fight over and over and over and over again), but when he gets really upset his behavior is completely over the line.
Regarding the rest of the posters here who are "offensive". There are posters here on both sides of the line that seem to have a lot of anger issues. Maybe I miss some of ilylo's offensiveness because I don't read him anymore. If he has a message, I'm not willing to dig through all of the bickering to find it. And there are a handful of others that I can do without, so I do. I don't put them on an ignore list, I just ignore them. And I don't engage with them (most of the time).
Maybe it's kind of like working with a bunch of people. Some you absolutely love, some are okay, and some are a pain in the butt. Maybe there are a few people who are so toxic that you can't stand to be around them, so you go out of your way to avoid them. But their actions never really cross the line, it's just that day in and day out they kind of suck to be around. And then there's that wonderfully, strange man who makes you laugh, makes you think, and every few months he gets really upset and starts throwing excrement all around. Of course, he's going to get fired! Maybe you'd rather put up with a day here and there of avoiding the flying excrement than deal with the people who are toxic every day, but most people have to draw the line at the flying excrement.
Maybe I don't make any sense, but I guess I'm trying to say that as sad as I am to see Ran banned, I have to agree with the decision. The things I saw a few days ago I would imagine could get this board shut down.
This board has its ups and downs. It's definitely down now. I hope the people that make it an interesting place to visit don't disappear.
I must confess, if that comment had been directed at me, I am guilty. It is sooooo hard to love some people. Try as I might, and pray as hard as I can, there are many who I cannot find it in me to love. I believe loving others is a matter of seeing them in a different light, and we are all conditioned by our experiences in life, whether educational, religious, cultural, class setting, etc. and that frames the window of our view. I am working on it. What is they say at Alcoholics Anonymous? Admission is the first step? Something like that?
Hello, my name is Brick and I don't love all my neighbors.
Well the other day started out like many--My early morning wake up coffee and a little meditation. When I was sitting down to study, the sound of a loud bang startled me. "Oh my", I knew what that sound was. It happens from time to time. You see I have a very large picture window by my deck and feeders. It was the sound of a bird hitting the window.
I quickly go to the deck to see if there was hope--This is not the first time so there was hope. Lying on the deck was this beautiful bird--A Kirtland Warbler which is rare. It was lying half on it side with its head cocked funny. It was still alive.
So then I reached down to assess its condition. Well the Bird was alive but really seemed to be in a bad way. I got a little water and sprinkled a little on its beak and to my surprise it shook it off so I knew its neck was not broken.
Now this is a very brisk fall morning with rays of good warm sun. So I decided to set the bird down in hopes it would gain its status on its own. It was sad to see it tip over as if enough was enough. So I scooped it up again in my hand to hold it. I cupped it gently in my hand and kinda stroked like I do with my Cockatoos. This was just to keep it stimulated. Oh yes and a little prayer lifted up for the little birds well being.
Now I do not know just why this bird Lost its direction and crashed falling to the ground and really did not care--My job now was to do all for it I could. I did not know if I could help but I would try. As I sat in the sun on the deck with the bird I could not help but think; Is this not what GOD does for us all the time? We fall and he picks us up when we fall not caring why but just to set us back on our feet and give us comfort.
Well I tried a little more water and soon the bird was at least using his feet to grasp. I noted its eyes kept shutting. So I kept stroking and warming it. Soon it started to turn and look a little. I felt it was time to set it down and see if it would try and fly. No it did not but once again seemed to falter. So once again I scooped the little bird up and held it. I sat there for at least 1/2 hour stroking and talking to this little creature. I could not help but remember as Jesus taught us in scripture that:
not one sparrow is forgotten before God? and also we are of more value than many sparrows.
So this is how it is when we fall---God does not look for reasons to not pick us up. He will not only pick us up but God will continue to pick us up until we are ready for the journey again. I was also reminded of what it means to be a faithful steward. Is this not for us in all things--Our brothers, sisters, strangers and yes even this little bird.
So after about 1/2 half hour and a few forced drops of water this little bird started to look around and was standing quite well. I stood up and just held it in my open hand. This beautiful creature stood for about ten minutes in my hand turning and looking at me for some time. Then it was ready and off it went to the air and to a tree. I was happy. How many times have I or you been this little bird in Gods hand?
I just had to think that this little bird might have gave up if it were not for my intervention. Or perhaps one of the local predators might have gotten it in a weakened state. So here I am with this little bird as it would be for most of us In Gods hand.
When we are weak and fall no matter what reason God is swift to take us up into his hand. Not to clutch tightly but just to nurture out of harms way--To give time for strength. It was a good lesson for me. It was a lesson in Faith, Hope, Trust, and Stewardship.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
There are just to many references that I would like to point to but I believe the story speaks.
I usually try to respond to negative posts here with something I've observed, hoping to portray issues in an actual setting rather than focusing on some spot on an otherwise clean sheet.
Whether this is beneficial, or not, I can't quite tell. Perhaps most just slide past my posts and tune me out, preferring to spend time and thought to posts that promote the negative slant.
Now that the weather is cooling and I'm about finished putting the garden to bed, it's about time to hook the pickup up to the trailer beside the barn, clean it up, restock it and head out for warmer climes for awhile. It's nice to be retired and perhaps I should retire Ron Hall too.
Hopefully, he won't be remembered as a crabby responder.
The way I see it, we are each on a personal journey in our walk with God... and we're not all at the same place in our journey. We're each responsible for our own relationship with the Lord. Not someone else's. I'm reminded of 1 Cor. 12 many times:
v. 4: Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. v. 5: And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord, v. 6: And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Some of us are still attending the F&W meetings, and enjoying the fellowship there. Some of us attend other churches, and enjoy fellowship there. But no matter where we go or don't go, if we don't have a relationship with God, it doesn't profit a thing.
For some people, I'd say the F&W fellowship is a cult. For some it isn't. For some people, other churches could be a cult to them. It depends whether we're worshipping Christ, or just the form or system itself. What is our first love?
And you know what, I've realized I can't judge what someone else's first love is. Maybe I can see that they really love their church, or the fellowship meetings... but I can't see the secret part of their service before God... so I can't see which they love the most... but God can.
1 Cor. goes on to talk about the different members of the body, and different gifts. God doesn't call us all to serve in the same place within the body of Christ... and He doesn't give us all the same gifts... but each member who loves Him can still be lead by His spirit.
Perhaps what felt like bondage to you feel likes bonds of love to someone else. What felt like a cult to you may feel like family to another. Maybe God was simply calling you to a different place, so you could manifest Christ to other people. God is looking for the fruits of the spirit in our hearts and lives... not what chair or building we sit in on Sunday morning.
I would just encourage you in this... don't try to change everyone to fit your understanding of God's will... if someone is happy and content in their place of service and they have peace with God, then that is where God has called them. Just love them.
Last Edit: Nov 5, 2008 0:09:27 GMT -5 by Scott Ross
www.blueletterbible.org/devotionals/dbdbg/view.cfm Many Christians do not characteristically live by receiving God's grace. Many attempt to live victoriously by merely doing the best that they can by their own human resources. They hope to achieve victory step by step. This will always prove inadequate, because victory must be received from the Lord. "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 15:57). "Give and receive" is the language of grace (which depends upon the work of God). "Earn and achieve" is the language of law (which depends upon the work of man).
When I first came to TMB, I saw the different discussions and opinions. I also found myself classifying posters. One group was enemies , the other friends. The reason for this was their opinions were not like mine or were like mine. Because of this I acted accordingly and also posted accordingly. Over time though I have developed a different feeling. I have come to see individuals who have been through different experiences than myself. Some have had experiences that have hurt them deeply others have had things they don't understand. Others are content and have an exalted feeling of being the great teacher. There are also those that cause no waves. What all of these observations have taught me is I don't know everything,and would like to post more wisely. I also would like to be a peacemaker.
I left the board for one reason and stayed absent for a different one. I've been on a journey and after dropping in just to see, I think the time has come to say goodbye finally to all those I've met here over the years.
I finally got it last week. I finally saw myself as I truly am and how only God can be what I need. When you've personally encountered God, when you've seen what you are as distinct from God, when you see what you can be because of Jesus, you finally grasp that you can love even the most unlovely because God loved me in my unloveliness first. No words can do it justice. The soul laid bare simply and immediately grasps it.
So if I have been a positive influence for any of you over time, then I hope you will do the same for others. If I have hurt anyone, I say sorry with all my heart and ask your forgiveness. And if any have done anything against me, I have forgotten all offenses.
Because I cannot be in person and show love to you all, I am left with powerless words. I hope this doesn't come over as preaching because it is not. It is just the words of an emptied person who has come face to face with God, who has said, "Depart from me Lord, for I am a sinful man," and who has heard the answer, "My grace is sufficient for you."
May you all find Him. May your journeys be toward the centre.
Prayer of St Francis of Assisi
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon, Where there is doubt, faith, Where there is despair, hope, Where there is darkness, light, and where there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love; For it is in giving that we receive, It is in pardoning that we are pardoned, And it is in dying that we are born into eternal life.
Admin By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/ogiwa.cfm Our God Is... Love 1Jo 4:16 Spirit Jhn 4:24 The Holy One Psa 16:10 The I Am Jhn 8:58 Yahweh Exd 6:3 The Alpha & Omega, The Beginning & End Rev 1:8 God Almighty Exd 6:3 A Miracle Working God Gal 3:5 The Creator of the World Jhn 1:3 Infinite 1Ki 8:27 All Powerful Jer 32:17, 27 All Knowing 1Jo 3:20 Ever Present Psa 139:1, 13 Unchangeable Num 23:19 Jehovah Psa 83:18 A Covenant Making God Hbr 10:16 The Everlasting Father Isa 9:6 A Father of Lights Jam 1:17 A Father of Mercies & God of All Comfort 2Co 1:3 The Author of Salvation Hbr 2:10 Full of Power Rom 13:1 A God Who Raises the Dead 2Co 1:9 A Quickening Spirit 1Co 15:45 Mighty to Save Isa 63:1 Our Maker Isa 54:5 Our Heavenly Father Mat 6 The Justifier of the One Who Has Faith in Jesus Rom 3:26 Metting Our Needs through Jesus Phl 4:19 Giving Us the Peace that Surpasses Understanding Phl 4:7 Jesus of Nazareth Jhn 19:19 The Door of the Sheep Jhn 10 The Way, Truth & Life Jhn 14:6 The Prince of Peace Isa 9:6 The King of Kings & Lord of Lords Rev 17:14 The Lamb of God Rev 5:6 The Bread of Life Jhn 6:48-58 The Bright & Morning Star Rev 22:16 The Light of the World Jhn 8:12 Immanuel Isa 7:14 Wonderful Counselor Isa 9:6 The Great Shepherd of the Sheep of Sheep Hbr 13:20 The Head of the Church Eph 1:22 Jesus Mat 1:21 The Same Yesterday, Today & Forever Hbr 13:8 Our All Sufficiency 2Co 3:5 The Word Jhn 1:1 Dwelling in Us 2Co 6:16 Easily Touched Hbr 4:15 Faithful & True Rev 19:11 A Sure Foundation Isa 28:16 Upholding All things by the Word of His Power Hbr 1:3 Watching Over His Word to Perform It Jer 1:12 A Rewarder of Those Who Diligently Seek Him Hbr 11:6 No Respecter of Persons Act 10:34 The True Light Jhn 1:9 The Author & Finisher of Our Faith Hbr 12:2 Mediator of the New Covenant Hbr 9:15 The Truth Jhn 14:6 Working in Us Hbr 13:21 Greater in Us Than He That Is in the World 1Jo 4:4 Unto Us Wisdom, Sanctification & Redemption 2Co 1:30 For Us Rom 8:31 Never Leaving Us or Forsaking Us Hbr 13:5 Always Leading Us in Triumph in Christ 2Co 2:14 Faithful Over His House Hbr 3:1-6 Ruler of the Kings of the Earch Rev 1:5 Our Lord & Our God Jhn 20:28 Our Life Jhn 11:25-26 Our Savior Luk 2:11 Our Redeemer Isa 48:17 Our Teacher Mat 28:18 Our Healer Isa 53:5 Our Deliverer Rom 11:20 Our Resurrection Jhn 11:25 Our Justification Rom 3:26 Our Strength Phl 4:13 Our Righteousness 1Co 1:30 Our Peace Eph 2:14 Our Advocate 1Jo 2:1 Our Faithful High Priest Hbr 9:11; 10:21 Our Bridegroom Mat 9:15 Our Hope of Glory Col 1:27 Pleased to Give Us the Kingdom Luk 12:32 Equipping Us Eph 4:11-16 Giving Us Revelation Knowledge 1Co 2:10-13 Giving Us the Keys to the Kingdom Mat 16:19 Giving Us His Name Mar 16:17-18 Giving Us the HOLY SPIRIT Luk 11:13; Act 2:38-39 Anointing Us for Service 1Jo 2:20 Filling Us With Wisdom & Spiritual Understanding Eph 1:17 Giving Us His Armour Eph 6:10-18 Providing Us Angels Hbr 1:14 Faithful to Complete the Work He Began in Us Phl 1:6 Rich in Mercy Psa 136 Teaching Us How to Profit, Leading Us in the Way We Should Go Isa 48:17 Giving Us All Things to Enjoy 1Ti 6:17 Saying Well Done My Good & Faithful Servants Mat 25:21 Receiving All the Glory 1Co 10:31 Worthy of Praise Psa 18:3 Saying to Everyone, "Surely I Am Coming Quickly." Amen Rev 22:20
Bert, are you a father? A father loves his children even when they do not do as he commands....at least if he DOES love his children. He doesn't like that they've disobeyed, but a good father neither condones or condemns by giving or witholding his love. His love is the one thing that should ALWAYS be secure. And it is with our heavenly Father.
The Bible says that He loved THE WORLD so much that He gave His son for it. God LOVES the world! The sinful, wicked world??? WHAT??? Yes, that's what it says. He loved the world BEFORE it ever obeyed Him. That's just another incredibly amazing part of the gospel. God loves us BEFORE we love Him. In fact, it is that UNCONDITIONAL love, that we have not earned or deserved...that very MERCIFUL and GRACIOUS love...that moves us to obey!
Obeying the commands of Jesus is a result of the indwelling Spirit that has been given to sinners like me, BECAUSE of His unconditional love.
Some folks try to obey Jesus commands to EARN His love. It's such a difficult thing to do and quite unrewarding by comparison. It may temporarily satisfy, but only as long as they are CONSISTENTLYperfect. (As someguy noted) It may also increase their own sense of righteousness when they do right...but when they do wrong, such a terrible self-loathing takes over.
Think of a child who feels unloved, trying unsuccessfully over and over to please his father. How much better to know our Father's love and trust His continued guidance and help, as we joyfully seek to please Him. Even though we fail, we understand that He knows our hearts and loves us without conditions. He recognizes our desire to follow His commands. That's what keeps us glad to keep on trusting HIS work in us.
He doesn't say, "When you get it right, THEN I will give my love to you." What kind of father would say that? No, He says, "I love you so much. I am perfecting you and transforming you. I know you love me too, so keep going my child. I am sad when you disobey, because it causes sorrow for you and your brethren, but I will NEVER stop loving you. Even for my own name's sake, I will NEVER leave you."
Giving is to be done in secret; not letting the right hand know what the left hand doeth, etc.
I think it would be a lloooonnnggg stretch to believe that our right hand will not know what our left hand is doing (or vv) as long as both are connected to our head. Jesus is teaching that our motives for giving to God and others must be pure. It is easy to give with mixed motives; to do something for someone if it will benefit us in return. But believers should avoid all scheming and give for the pleasure of giving and as a response to God's love. Jesus says that we should check our motives in three areas, generosity, prayer and fasting. Matt 6:4, 6:6 and 6:18. Those acts should not be self centered, but God centered, done not to make us look good. Some people especially the religious leaders wanted to be seen as "holy" and public prayer was one way to get attention. Jesus saw through their self righteous acts and taught that the essence of public prayer is not public style but private communication with God. There is a place for public prayer, but to pray only where and when others will notice you indicates that your real audience is not God. The word hypocrites is used here indicating that ones actions may be good but ones motives are hollow. These empty acts are their only reward, but God will reward those who are sincere in their faith. That would be why Jesus recognized the widow giving her two mites; everyone saw her giving, Jesus saw her heart. My Bible has the word when you give...not if you give indicating that giving IS a part of our christian life. When, where, what ,why and how indicates our heart... Ivan
Facts should be brought forward only to provide weapons for the fight against exclusivity.
Goodoppollo, If exclusivity is the issue we need only go to Paul's letters and teaching on the subject. From Paul all the exclusivity that has been found in catholicism and all the other groups originated. Much exclusivity has been diluted but for fundamentalist christians it is hardly going to disappear, now, is it?
Can't a guy dream? Consider the following quote:
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "
I was talking about professed Christians denying other Christians happiness in worship, causing them painful heartbreak. Point out where Paul was denying other Christians the right to worship with him.
Admin By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
Thank you goodapollo. Let's hope the practice of shunning soon vanishes:
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another 1John3
I think for a person to get over being hurt they have to realize who hurt them and why they seem to be significant. They are only significant if you allow them to be.
The friends and workers take themselves so very seriously because they believe they are God's only people on earth. They believe that they are the only gospel some people will ever see.
When we left, the closest thing to getting shunned was a letter from an old friend expressing her sorrow in having to think of us differently from then on. Even though they seem to be normal, rational people, you have to say they are not. They have been brainwashed and are mentally disturbed and can't really be trusted. Their ability to think as an individual has been traded for group think and if you've been sent away from them, turn to God and thank Him for your chance to see the true light as He intended. You are now free to see other folks around you as Jesus saw them, and love them as Jesus loved them. You are free from thinking everyone around you has nothing spiritual to offer, or worse, that they are just plain headed for a lost eternity, whatever that means to you. Being exed should not be a time of sorrow. If it happens to you let it be a time for rejoicing. I know this has not been the case for many, because of their deeply held beliefs at the time of their excommunication, but I hope and pray for all of you in this situation that you can see the light more and more as time goes on and as you encounter people from all denominations who are full of the spirit of Christ. And we can't afford to be bitter against those who have shunned and hurt us if this is where you're finding yourself. After all, if you've been exed, you once were like them, living in fear, looking at your neighbors knowing that you knew the truth and they didn't. You'll always be able to see yourself back there, but now you can be free from the way of the Pharisee. ;D
Just some additional thoughts on all of the above posts together.
If we arranged all of the denominations on a sliding scale of "denial", ours would be among the more ascetic. I don't think that makes us any better as people, and there are in fact more than a few dangers in this approach.
1) What I would call needless ascetism or denial in which a person no longer enjoys anything, even in moderation. This results from the belief that if some denial is good, more denial is even better. Which totally misses the point. The point is just to deny those things that are harmful so that one can enjoy other God-given things more.
2) There's also the danger that we think that only our approach is correct in every way. This isn't a quality unique to our group but seems to be part of human nature. My wife and I were just discussing a Sociology course she's taking. When one culture meets another, think of the white man and the first nations as an example, the one culture doesn't say, hey, look another group with a different approach to life and its problems; what can we learn from them? No, instead they say, look at those inferior heathens, not up to our standard, let's kill them or convert them. I'm just suggesting that when you first make yourself different than the mainstream or surrounding culture, I don't care who it is, Charles Manson or the Mennonites, after a while you begin to think of yourself as being better than the surrounding culture. A very difficult tendency to resist. As Christians we're supposed to be able to overcome those tendencies, however.
3) There's the danger of legalism setting in, where we adhere to the letter of the law as we understand it, but miss the underlying principles. So you don't smoke but do drink 10 cups of coffee a day. You've avoided the social censure, but miss the point of not polluting the body.
4) Also, there's the possibility, when the bar of denial is set needlessly high, of swings in behaviour, living in a monastery one day and going to Mardi-Gras the next.
Yes, I can see the position of someone who has to live with the ill effects of the spirit of self-righteousness. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm personally not troubled by the idea that another denomination might be a better answer for a given individual. I see denominationalism as one of those necessary evils given that as humans we just don't always get along.
While denominationalism seems to have been developed upon the negative where a split occurred over one or more facets of the old group, the result today has been interesting, perhaps even desirable by God. I'm inclined to seen denominationalism more as a beautful patchwork quilt with each patch more suitably preferred by different individuals yet all connected by the common thread of Christ-belief.
The more blessings you thank God for, the more blessings you begin to realize that you have been given. Lord, thank you for Your constant Love and unending blessings.
Whether the friendships we have last a lifetime or only a brief period, they bring joy and make life a little better. Lord, may I be genuine and honest with the people in my life so that each relationship is a blessing.
Begin every day as if it were your very first because you really are always at the beginning. Lord, thank you for the constant ability to stop any offensive behaviors that I have and the gift of being forgiven and being able to forgive myself.
Never worry about the opinion others have of you because there is only one opinion that counts. Lord, I will walk in Your footsteps and seek to please You in my daily life.
benar: Perhaps you clicked on the Coronavirus thread...
Feb 27, 2020 1:03:20 GMT -5
wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...
Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5
ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad..
Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5
wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?
Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5
ant_rotten: What’s happening Wally? You’ve gone quite on me..
Feb 20, 2020 4:56:35 GMT -5
wally: its no mystery apostate ant_rotten i am quite vocal...
Feb 17, 2020 9:12:28 GMT -5
ant_rotten: I’m not surprised to find wally in the shoutbox
Feb 17, 2020 6:32:29 GMT -5
jetmech: Hello Dennis
Feb 15, 2020 13:39:39 GMT -5
kip: Looking for meetings in Maine.
Jan 25, 2020 10:03:22 GMT -5
snow: Great jetmech, you found it!
Jan 19, 2020 15:04:59 GMT -5
wally: welcome to the shoutbox
Jan 15, 2020 21:33:25 GMT -5
jetmech: Hey everyone … this is my first time here
Jan 15, 2020 14:01:06 GMT -5