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Post by Admin on Oct 13, 2017 22:20:40 GMT -5
Admin moved my post over here to this location ... right when I thought my post would be elected "most popular post" ....what a way to CONTROL whose posts gets nominated most popular post. It's highly unlikely I'll ever post on here again!  |
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Post by Admin on Nov 28, 2017 11:50:11 GMT -5
Jack Carroll talked about this... I have talked to some young people in recent months and I had the utmost sympathy for them. They had professed when children. They wanted to have their father's and mother's God be their God, and they knew it would please their parents for them to take this step, and they took it. And while in some cases these young people have given the very clearest evidence that they had seriously considered this matter, and by their walk and conversation, and by the battles they have fought at school, etc., have proved. Christ had been revealed in them.
Others who had not given this matter the same serious consideration, but professed and went to meetings etc., yet they had no joy or satisfaction. They were enduring it rather than enjoying it. We do not blame them, or censor them if they are not going on, and it would be a mistake for the parents to try and compel them to go on if they have never been born again. The wisest thing would be to take those young people in hand one by one and show to them how difficult and how impossible it is to live the Christian life without Christ. There is nothing that will torture a man or woman more than to try and live like a Christian without being a Christian--to live like a child of God without being born again.
Source: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/carrolls2.php#nt_min |
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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2018 17:07:30 GMT -5
I certainly won’t be attending any Christianity Explored Course. I can’t see the point. If not, then I'd advise you to take some sort of course in Church History. I know you already have a fairly good knowledge on it, but everyone can always learn more. I encourage even people who don't care at all about the Church in any sense to attend some sort of course on Church History, because it underpins world history of the past two thousand years. David Starkey said this well when he said that knowing the Bible and the Church is the key to learning about world history. Who really knows what most Christians believe anyway? Christians can’t even agree on whether their God is 3 persons or 1 person Yes they can. There exist certain doctrinal red lines where sufficiently large heresy turns into apostasy, of which the Trinity is one. Denial of the divine nature of Christ causes such a fundamental misunderstanding of the love of God, Jesus' mission, the Atonement, The Church etc etc. Let me be clear on this, I do not mean misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity (because it's actually a very complex doctrine theologically), I mean denial of the deity of Christ. To put is simply, if the Trinity is not true, the Atonement of the Cross ceases to be sufficient for the propitiation and expiation of sin, and so no-one is ever saved. To deny the divine nature of Christ is to declare yourself apostate, or to put it another way there is no such thing as a anti-trinitarian Christian. In fact when I really start to think about it I probably already have a better understanding of the Christian God than most Christians have. Matt10 Clearly not if you believe that Christians reject the Trinity. |
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Post by Admin on May 4, 2018 21:28:07 GMT -5
On the evening of 8th May 1943, 24 soldiers, 1 civilian, and the bus driver, were travelling in a bus from their camp, to a Saturday night dance at Albury NSW. At a level crossing in Wodonga, a Railway Engine collided with the Bus killing those 25 persons. The soldiers were home on leave after fighting in North Africa, so you can imagine joy and happiness in that Bus prior to the accident. Why my interest?. My Father was the Fireman on the Railway Engine, but more than that, was lookout on the side of the Engine where the Bus was coming from. When he became aware that they were going to collide with the Bus, he gave the alarm,but it was too late and those persons were tragically killed. For the rest of his life he felt responsible for their deaths, why did he not give the alarm sooner. To some extent it ruined his life. Dad was my best mate, and I spent the last fortnight of his life with him 24/7. At night he liked me to mop his brow with a cool face washer. Not long before his death he said "Bobby, I don't think I sang out soon enough". So to his dying day he felt responsible for the death of those 25 people. A great mental load to carry, and I don't think we understood the torment he had to suffer. Of course in 1943 we thought the Japanese were about to invade Australia, there was heavy censorship of information, and very little information was kept about the accident. The engine crew were instructed not to talk to anybody about it. However the newspaper ran stories about the accident, the mass funeral, and the court cases that followed. Dad kept a scrap book with all those stories pasted in it. There was a big fire at the newspaper office, and the originals lost. So Dad's scrapbook was about the only record of the tragic event. I always knew there was a story there to be told. But despite various efforts, was unable to get anybody to write it up. However a few weeks ago the Australian Military made contact with me, knowing that I was the fireman's Son. I made them aware of the scrapbook, and they asked for a copy. It helped them with information to plan services for the 75th anniversary next Tuesday. There is to be two services at Albury/Wodonga, one at Albury Cemetery at 2.30pm where the soldiers are buried. The other is at Wodonga at 6.30 pm at the crash site.The army have invited my Wife and myself to be their guests at both services, and to read the poems I will post here. These poems were written at the time, and placed in the paper on the day of the mass funeral. Dad had a copy of them on the cover page of his scrapbook, so I know they were important to him. so it is with some treperdation and excitement that I go, and as I remember there will be tears. We will lay flowers and a card that our Daughter has prepared at a sign that I had made as a tribute to the engine crew. Where the rail track was is now a walking track, and the authority that runs it, has allowed us to put signs there. I feel rewarded that the story will not be lost, as the Army plans to have a service on the 8th May from now on. The poems, THE TRAGEDY. It moved along at even pace, A bus packed full of the human race, Just filled with joy, so gay, with laughter, With not one thought of the hereafter. When suddenly from out the gloom, A monster whistled out, "Make Room!" The driver's vision not too clear, Never knowing Death was near. With hissing steam and grinding brakes, To stop the iron monster takes. The men leapt out with bated breath, The sight confronting them was Death. It was the irony of fate, That took so many lives of late, Our hearts go out to many Mothers, Fathers, Sons, Sweethearts, Brothers. Many through the East had trod, Returning home with manly pride, But now they rest beneath the sod, Tho' murderous War they had defied. From sympathetic hearts there flows, Unstinted thoughts of patient sorrow, For those they left, God only knows, How they will face the dread tomorrow. With all these souls at final rest, Too hard for us to understand, Tho' God, no doubt, has thought it was best, To take them in His guiding hand. SOMETHING LEFT. Whatever life may take from you, Of joy, of hope or grace, This recompense must always stand, There's something left in place. Although our eyes are tear-dimmed, And we're saddened for a space, Whatever life may take from us, There's something left in place. To us the wisdom may not show, As anguish we must face, But bye and bye we come to feel, That something is in its place. Time sets its healing hands to work, And some day we shall trace, The meaning clear, and we shall find, There's something in its place. For every sorrow born must have, Its recompense and grace, Whatever life shall take from us, There's something left in place. |
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Post by Admin on May 7, 2018 16:27:37 GMT -5
The Worker Stanley Sharpe: I remember him mentioning the following quote (as a visiting worker) from the platform at a convention in the UK many years ago: "A bells not a bell 'till you ring it; A songs not a song 'till you sing it; And love in your heart wasn't put there to stay; Love isn't love 'till you give it away." I was impressed not just by the words but by the fact that a worker quoted Oscar Hammerstein from the platform! I loved Stanley. I remember standing by the open casket at his funeral, and asking God what we were going to do without him. I remember him quoting the above words a number of times, both in and out of meeting. Stanley wrote down bits of trivia, sayings, words that were meaningful to him. And these often formed a significant part of his heartfelt sermons. He would often get choked up with emotion when he spoke. He was a good man, a wise man, with a quick wit. He unfailingly showed an uncommon amount of common sense. In later years, he would sometimes spend days in the library, researching, writing letters, reflecting. He was very aware of needing re-charge time on his own, if he was to be an influence for good among the people he served. And he did serve. In Winnipeg, years ago, he was known as "5 minute Sharpe" - because he frequently dropped in on the lonely and the shut-ins, and he would only stay for 5 minutes. Just long enough to let them know that someone was thinking of them, and to put a little bright spot in their day. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 6, 2018 17:18:14 GMT -5
JOE KERR was born in 1881 in Dumfriesshire, Wanlockhead, Scotland, and grew up in the small village of Philipstown. He was a convert of Ed Cooney and entered the work in 1902. Joe was one of the eight pioneers of the work in South Africa in 1905, along with Alex Pearce, John Cavanagh, Wilson Reid, Mary Moodie, Martha Skerrit, Lilly Reid and Barbara Baxter.
Joe's long-time childhood friend, Archie Russell had been orphaned in the Tay Bridge Disaster in December 1928, and he and his siblings (a brother Thomas, sister Christine and perhaps more) went to live with their Grandmother Russell, who lived next door to the Kerr Household. The two boys became inseparable friends from early childhood, playing, going to school together and attending the same church. In their teenage years they belonged to the Presbyterian church youth group known as the "Band of Hope," a temperance organization founded in the 1840s, which encouraged youth to sign a pledge to abstain from alcohol.
In their mid-20s, the two friends decided to enlist in the army and go to South Africa to fight the Boers (Boer War?). They consulted with their pastor, and he advised them to not go with guns, but with Bibles to help. So they decided to become missionaries and became 2x2 Workers, Joe in 1902 and Archie in 1904. Joe went to South Africa in 1905, about two years before Archie arrived in 1907 with his companion David Gibson. The trip cost Archie ten pounds and took six weeks sailing time.
The Russell family reports that as soon as he disembarked at Cape Town, Archie started preaching to the crowd who were mostly black or colored. There was a black man in the front of the crowd who kept nodding his head and smiling. Archie asked him if he understood English. The man replied, "Aye and a wee bit of Scotch." Archie was amazed.
Somehow, Archie connected with Joe and the pair went all over the country preaching, often staying with Christian families. It is not known what became of Archie's companion, David Gibson. Joe and Archie went to the Wisweet thingersrand Diamond Rush in Kimberley, believing it would be a very promising mission field, especially in the "tent city" growing around the "big hole." There they met the Koekemoer family of Dutch descent and their three daughters where they held meetings in their home and the family was converted. They spent several years in the area preaching in the open air and holding house meetings, as well as a night in jail for "disturbing the peace." Eventually, Joe and Archie moved on to Johannesburg, as did the Koekemoers. Their eldest daughter, Gladys, became a 2x2 Worker, and began preaching with Barbara Baxter.
On February 3, 1915, Archie married Gladys (she was 23 and he was 35). Archie retired with the South African Railways as a fitter and turner, which he had been trained for in Scotland. Archie never drove a car, but cycled everywhere until well into his 70s. Archie died in the mid-1960s in South Africa. The Russell family moved around a good deal, starting and ending in Johannesburg. They had children, one of whom was a daughter named Ruth (Russell) Barnett. She and her son Rod provided some of these details.
Also in 1915, Joe married Barbara. They had three children: Norman, Doreen and Joe, Jr. Archie's children affectionately called them "Uncle Joe" and "Aunt Barbara." Ruth Russell said he was a good looking Scot with a marvelous sense of humor who teased everyone; and they loved going to visit them whenever they went to Cape Town on holiday. When Joe and Barbara married, they were forced out of the 2x2 Sect. Joe wrote Irvine Weir:
"It is about 39 years ago....We had a loan of beds etc. in the room we had and they sent the saints who owned these things and took them from us and left us the floor to sleep on. They forbid any of the saints to come near us, and I may tell you something that you may know already that the workers have almost the same power over the so called saints as the Priests have over their people. That is their strongest weapon. Then I had not any trade and all the unskilled work is done out here by the coloured and native people. I took a Diploma in Motor Engineering and later a Diploma in Fire Engineering and then a Diploma in Traffic Engineering, but it meant a lot of hard work and that was one of the reasons that I went blind."
In 1915, the same year Joe and Barbara married, another married couple was allowed to begin preaching. Perhaps Joe did not ask permission before his marriage took place. It is not known if Archie and Gladys left voluntarily. Archie and Joe and their wives joined the Plymouth Brethren. In his letter, Joe refers to E. H. Broadbent's book, "The Pilgrim Church." The author, Broadbent, was a Plymouth Brethren. Barbara died Feb. 24 1947, aged 64, and Joe died Dec. 17, 1966, aged 85, in Cape Town.
Joe Kerr is the most famous for reportedly being the one who FIRST applied the Living Witness Doctrine (LWD) to the 2x2 ministry. Joe’s explanation for the LWD is found in his letter dated January 28, 1956. Joe Kerr is generally recognized as being the one who initially proposed to Wm. Irvine that Drummond's theory of “Biogenesis” was applicable to Irvine's ministry. The Secret Sect states, "Alfred Magowan, many years later, reminded Cooney that Joe applied the natural law of Biogenesis, as discussed in "Natural Law in the Spiritual World," to the spiritual relationship of those in their fellowship" (The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, p. 18). Ed Cooney wrote:
"William had been partially persuaded by Joe Kerr to accept the heresy that no one could be born again without meeting a Living Witness. Others held that that witness must be a sent preacher who had heard William or some preacher who had heard him.” (From Edward Cooney's Testimony, The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, pp. 115-116) Fred Wood wrote: "The Living Witness Doctrine was said to have been brought in by a certain Joe Kerr and accepted by William Irvine. It would seem that our brethren still hold this, viz., 'That no one can be born again apart from hearing the gospel from one of their preachers'" ( Selected Letters of Fred Wood compiled by Patricia Roberts, p. 59). More details about the Living Witness Doctrine will be given later in this chapter.
John Long spoke highly of Joseph Kerr: "For knowledge of the Scriptures, Kerr was the finest companion I ever had; and he was only twenty-one; however, Edward Cooney, and William Irvine sent him with me for a training; and did not leave a good man with me long." Reportedly, both George Walker and Joe Kerr had started studies in religious programs. "Two of Irvine's prominent preachers, George Walker and Joe Kerr, had begun training for the Methodist ministry, but gave up their studies" ( The Secret Sect, p. 17).
THEN at the July, 1905, Convention at Crocknacrieve, unexpectedly, Joseph Kerr, who was about 24 years old at the time, altered the course of the Go-Preachers. Joe Kerr was:
"...one of the most gifted and talented of the workers got a very prominent place by William Irvine; rather too much so for a novice. He attended a conference, in the Bridge of Allan in Scotland; and he was so disgusted with the way the Clergy preached; that he come to the conclusion that there are no clergymen saved. Without any charitable consideration of the conscience or opinion of others, he preached it at that convention. Irvine defended him, but Edward Cooney opposed him and tried to prove that John Wesley was a born again man.
"The unwillingness of Clergymen to conform themselves to the pattern as seen in Jesus is very manifest; and the neglect of faithfulness to their calling and office is to be greatly deplored; and a true and faithful witness who tells them the truth in love is to be admired, but to say that there are none of them born again is not true; and limits the power and grace of God to regenerate whomsoever he will. Then again, regeneration is a thing of the heart and cannot be always measured by external appearance, dress, salary or education. The Salvation of the Soul is by grace through faith to everyone that repents and believes in Christ Jesus; and the experience, testimony and fruits of any clergymen bear witness to the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ. Up to that time they all believed that; nevertheless, Kerr’s New Doctrine introduced somewhat of what seemed to be absurd, and that the honest hearted could not believe without a violation of conscience and which hindered a true witness against error and wrong; and injured their own testimony..." (From: John Long's Journal)
Two letters by Joe are printed in the link above written in the 1950's using a return address in care of his son: Norman Kerr, 26 Raleigh Road, Mowbray, Cape South Africa.
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Post by Admin on May 3, 2019 18:35:43 GMT -5
In the early 90s, I was left alone in a large city field in California, when my older co-worker went to spend a month with his dying father. This co-worker was himself very careful about not ending up in compromising situations, and I was very well aware that I had to be extra-careful. I stayed with several young couples - my age or younger - during that month, but always made sure I was out the door right along with the husband when he went to work, and I would make my "base camp" for the day with older, retired people. Once, upon leaving the home of a certain couple close to my age, I went to the husbandʻs shop for a few minutes, then realized I had forgotten something at the house. I called their home from the office (just a few blocks away), then drove back there, and was glad to see the wife meet me outside the door with the article. Things can be mindfully dealt with like this, but itʻs obviously not always the case. A few years before this, I was in a central California field with an older co-worker who was notorious for going off on his own "projects," leaving his younger co-worker in the field alone. This can lead to all sorts of interesting situations, ranging from a very young worker who simply did not know what to do, to the subject at hand - sexual liaisons. This was a few years earlier in my worker career, but I still realized I had to be careful, as I was trying to cover the field for visiting (my co-worker was there for gospel meetings and some overnight stays), and this of course also put me in a few awkward situations. In particular, a certain young wife was obviously quite a flirt with young brother workers, and she was highly suspected of having an affair with a professing man right at the time (it turned out to be all-too-true). This is an immense temptation to a young brother worker, and I was no exception! But temptation means weighing the costs, and it meant more to me to "keep my testimony" than to give in. This simply meant being careful not to put myself in a compromising situation - not being around when the husband was at work! In a special meeting rounds in the mid-90s, a certain brother worker close to my age and I were driving together, and it had been arranged for me to drop him off at one home, then to go on to another home, where I was to spend the night. At the time we were driving, we would have both ended up in the respective homes alone with young wives. I told him I would just wait for awhile at the home where he was to stay, before driving on. He grew rather indignant, saying "They trust me." My response was, "Well, this is the way we keep peopleʻs trust." Iʻm not trying to "toot my own horn" here, but I am writing from personal experience to illustrate what Elizabeth and others are sharing, from the perspective of making sure nothing did occur! I know my own mind! These situations are very real in the work, and I would say that most workers do well in being careful. But obviously, some are careless, and a few take advantage of situations. Of course I don't mean they deliberately split up and go to different houses to start relationships with married spouses. Absolutely not. But the workers are fallible humans, and they, and vulnerable spouses sometimes end up in compromising positions because of the nature of this ministry where single workers, who have a celibate lifestyle more or less enforced on them, stay in the homes of members and are subject to temptation. Because the way is supposed to be perfect, and because workers are held up as a spiritual authority, many of us growing up naively believed "God's true servants" would never fall into such sin. They do. They have. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 29, 2019 18:32:26 GMT -5
Hi, I am new to the boards. I am from the no named Omega message branch of William Irvine. The last one he started after leaving the 2x2's. I have learned so much from this site as I had never heard of the 2x2's before or anything else really except for our super small world. Reading Cherie's summary of the Omega Message and the fact sheet of the three sects ( 2x2, Cooneyites, and Omega Message), it pretty much sums it up. There are some differences in my experience that I will share here. We never learned about the Age of Grace (forgiveness of sins) ending in 1914. We learned that that is the time the Omega Message started and the time of the end had come, hence the only study being done in Revelation. I had never heard about the forgiveness of sins, then or ever. We were taught that salvation was only through William Irvine. Jesus was not really a big part of our beliefs. All I really knew about him was that he was the son of God (literally, not in the trinity sense). And that the religious people killed him. And that is why we hate church people so much. They are all the same and they will be the ones who kill William Irvine and John when they come back during the tribulation. Churches and anyone affiliated are of Satan. While true, the religious people of the time did kill Jesus, it was part of God's plan for one, and second, the churches of today have nothing to do with that. The Christian churches of today were started in Acts as a way of worshiping, learning, and spreading the news about Jesus. The only part of the Bible we read (King James only) was Revelation and the small parts of the Gospels that tell of the religious people killing Jesus. I had no knowledge of Adam and Eve and the fall of man. Though we never talked about sin, we were told that the world was and had fallen apart as a result of Pilate freeing Barabas instead of Jesus. That is when evil entered the world. But there was no need for forgiveness of sins cause there was no belief that Jesus died for it and he was irrelevant in our eternity. The only thing that mattered was how strong our faith was in William Irvine. Which was pretty scary. For one, growing up in this and being young, reading WI's letters and the King James bible weren't too easy to understand. I hardly understand WI's letters now. But heaven forbid you ask questions. Maybe if it is to further understand but if you have any doubt or need clarification in that direction then your faith is like a weed or something like that. I have forgotten the threat now, but basically if you have any doubt at all, you aren't going to be worthy and you will be destroyed along with everyone else. I remember being in a church for a funeral as a kid. I was terrified for even being there. Then they prayed. I was begging and pleading with God not to strike me down and kill me right then and there for even being present while they did that. I was crying out inside asking him to forgive me for being there and assure him I wasn't praying and to please not kill me. There was always so much fear and anxiety. I always figured I would never be considered worthy so I just begged he'd let me die before I was 12 so I wouldn't have to go through that end of the world devastation. Funny thing is as I write this, I realize how much I was talking to God. Prayer was not allowed, at least not in front of anyone. Nor were you to talk about praying if you did pray, even if it was alone. Praying out-loud was religious, therefore of the devil.
And of course, the end of the world was coming anytime. We always had to be ready. We were taught not to get to close to people nor involved in human things so we would have no problem leaving. Really the getting involved in human things was separate. Not just so we could leave. So there were no after school activities, no sleepovers or birthday parties. Only with close family. Then we spent them reading the book of letters. Yay! We didn't celebrate religious holidays. We usually got together for Christmas and had dinner and read the book of letters. But there was no exchanging of gifts, trees, lights, etc. No easter bunny. But we did celebrate Halloween!
But back to the end of the world and his false predictions. So, I didn't even realize how many times WI falsely predicted the end of the world till reading on the Telling the Truth website. Then I went back in my letters and read them and sure enough, he was wrong every time. It also was never talked about how he thought he was going to be alive at the end of the world. He wasn't supposed to die a human death from throat cancer or whatever it was. He was supposed to be here when John came back. Oh, so WI believed he was the reader of Revelation. Revelation talks about a reader and writer. So John was the writer and William Irvine was the reader. He was The Only one who could interpret Revelation. So that is why it was to be him and John that came back as the two witnesses that would be killed and lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days before rising to heaven. I did point this out to a current Omega Message follower, his false prophecies and how that makes him a false prophet according to GOD and the bible. Their rebuttal was that WI stated he was only human and therefore got over eager sometimes and interpreted God wrong. As he got older and further along, he got a better understanding of what God was showing him. Funny, cause God says that would never happen. If someone claimed to be a prophet and their prophecy did not come to pass, he was a false prophet. Anyway, I could go on and on. I hope that if any questioning or ex-Omega people read this, they will find they are not alone. Being that we did not officially meet anywhere or have a real organization, it was a very very small world. I knew maybe a dozen or two growing up. Mainly just family and a few people that we would stop in and visit if we went on vacation. Read some letters and that was it. Thanks to Cherie's extensive research and including us on her site, there is hope of others finding out there's a few of us out here. If you have any questions, ask away. Thanks for inviting me here. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 24, 2023 21:01:51 GMT -5
Re: Dean Bruer, fmr overseer of Oregon, died June 21, 2022. Exposed sexual abuser. I think the police are very much involved in this case. From what is stated in the letter it is obvious to me the workers are acting in the third party. They will have avoided mentioning the police, etc., to try and make the whole matter easier to take. The laptop and phone etc, will have been seized by the police. The tragedy of this case is of the highest magnitude and I am angry, very angry. Years ago I was the FIRST person on these boards to suggest the workers needed to introduce 'immediate' measures to protect minors and other vulnerable persons from being exposed to the type of behaviour mentioned above. This was at a time when such things were only starting to come out AND were quickly dismissed for various reasons. At that time my main focus was on the trust workers had built up by staying in the homes of unrelated people whom they had spiritual control over. A very powerful tool. At that time I was ridiculed for my suggestions. I cannot believe what I am reading, that an Overseer had his own Best Western Hotel preferred customer account and spent a considerable amount of time and money in motels!!! That's bad enough, considering the homeless ministry proclamations, but to be using such a place for his secret life of sex, forced and otherwise, is beyond contemplation. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2023 20:15:21 GMT -5
Food for thought! I just wanted to share some more thoughts on this whole issue. My elderly aunt called me again last night and we were able to talk
some more about this. She is now aware of the letter from the brother workers in WA and the Mark Huddle allegation. This really upsets
her, but I think she reached out to me because she knows I have dealt with these types of ugly issues a lot and in a sense it isn't as
emotionally upsetting to me, and I take on a more pragmatic approach.
I think it is important to move away from the mentality of "protecting the Truth" and keeping secrets for the sake of the Kingdom.
If the Truth is of the Lord, the Lord will protect it. We, as humans are not nearly as capable of protecting the Kingdom as God is. It's
actually faulty thinking to think we would be able to "protect the Kingdom.". We are simply not that powerful.....
So, I told her: "If you have true faith in God, you will trust Him to keep you through this storm and Truth will win out in the end. So, where is your faith in God? Do you really totally trust Him to the extent that if the lid is COMPLETELY blown off all the abuse that's been allowed for years and it is totally brought into the spotlight for all to see, that your Faith will still survive?" She is a faithful woman indeed, but she has over the years put a lot of trust in the workers. Sometimes I wonder who she trusts more: the workers or God? I hope indeed it is God. But sometimes I wonder about that.
Also, any "system" you are involved in that doesn't allow free questioning of those in authority is an unhealthy system to be in; whether that be school, workplaces, a church, or a club, or our GOVERNMENT. When "the people" are not allowed to question, that is like a dictatorship. And we can see throughout history where that has taken place. It creates massive oppression and much more that isn't right. God Almighty never wanted a dictatorship type fellowship. He didn't want a "have to" service from His people. He has always wanted it to be a free will/free choice type of relationship. No coercion, no forcing, no manipulating, no guilt tripping. Spiritual leaders who use those techniques engage in spiritual abuse.
Maybe it needs to be said there are different forms of abuse, not just sexual. And they can all be used especially when there is a difference in power levels. Those forms are emotional, psychological, financial, sexual, exploitation, physical, and property, (abusing someone else's property). I have seen these forms play out over and over again and it's not pretty. We now not only have CPS, but also APS (adult protective services). In many cases one person can be abused in various forms by the same person.
I think when someone you love and/or trust and look up to or are taught to revere is the one abusing you, it is extra challenging to know what to do about it and who to turn to. In many cases, maybe MOST cases, it is best to go to a source that is not associated with the group and can be objective about the matter; (not emotionally or spiritually involved). Many of the friends are sort of afraid of getting "outside help". I can understand that, but in many cases it is better to do that because of the objectivity.
I can see how this whole issue would test the faith of many. But, again, if one's faith is in the Lord, rather than in other humans, they will weather the storm. Humans will ALWAYS disappoint. I don't say that because I want that to be other peoples' experience. And, I certainly
don't think it's good to walk around feeling AFRAID of "predators" out there all the time. But it's not good to be too naive either. AWARENESS is good. And how are we made more aware? Not everyone who has knowledge is going to be open and share freely, so.... We ask questions when we need to know more.
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Post by Admin on Mar 31, 2023 17:57:20 GMT -5
Holy cow. I am an infrequent reader of these boards, and an even more infrequent poster these days, even though these (and similar) boards and many of the people who have posted here have been an important part of my journey in past years. It is with a sense of disbelief and incredulity that I read all of this. To me, the fallibility of the workers has been well established since the 1970’s with the sexual misconduct in the 2X2 ministry at that time. There has been much since. And here we are, 50 years later, and the same kind of thing is happening, albeit apparently enabled by technological advances. I never knew Dean Bruer, but I have known many who have posted reactions to him, both positive and negative. It seems apparent he was quite personable, with an engaging manner of speaking, and that he meant a lot to many people through the years. I like many of the letters from the overseers, apparently embracing accountability and transparency. If there is substance to this, I can only respect it, and wish everyone continued growth and all the best moving forward. But I am reminded of a spirit within this ministry, exemplified by what was once referred to as the Schultz doctrine “Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement.” (http://www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz.php), and I am wary. Very wary. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 14, 2023 19:29:16 GMT -5
At first we thought this post was wildly off-topic, something about belly buttons Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders & friends, During these difficult weeks I’ve been keenly aware of your prayers & support. Words cannot express how meaningful your help has been during this time. Thanks so much! First, I want to personally apologize for the times I have ‘tuned out’ the muted cry of a wounded, frightened person and left their plea for help unheeded. I am saddened and deeply sorry to know that my responses (or lack thereof) have hindered justice and/or healing in some way. I hope you will forgive me for this. Along with our collective staff, I understand that many things must be different going forward. Even though many steps are still not defined, the following are a few of the things we are committed to: 1) We are going to ask everyone on our staff and the elders to take training courses regarding CSA (Child Sexual Abuse). We will not become investigators, counselors, etc., but we will educate ourselves, which is crucial for raising our awareness and safety levels. One of the courses we will take is called Ministry Safe ( ministrysafe.com/the-safety-system/awareness-training/). There is also a robust and free course (both General and Clergy segments) available from California (https://mandatedreporterca.com/). We also encourage each of you to sign up for one of these programs. 2) We are preparing a website to share important resources and guidelines regarding CSA. The site will contain information for workers, elders, parents, and children. Our goal is for all of us to do our part to keep each other safe. The information will be updated as new resources become available. We will also list several options for people who wish to report an incident of CSA or other types of abuse. I will send you a link to the site when it becomes active in the next little while. 3) Going forward, we will have a zero-tolerance policy regarding CSA. If we are made aware of CSA violations involving a victim who is presently a minor, we will report it to authorities immediately, in compliance with the law. If an adult confides in us about a personal CSA incident that occurred in their youth, we will urge them to consult professionals who can help them proceed in an advisable manner. We will support all who need support, and if the abuser is a present danger, will report this to authorities as mandated by the law. Trust doesn’t come from demanding it, but by earning it. We’ve broken trust and we realize rebuilding that trust will be a process. We know you need more than a list of promises from us. You need to see proof that we care deeply for the most vulnerable people among us and that we will do all we can to protect them. You need to be assured that we will not shame or condemn victims… ever. You need evidence that we are being motivated and kept by divine love. These things are not too much to ask. This is what we want as well. Likely there is a lot that this letter doesn’t say that it should say. Hopefully you will feel free to contact me or any of the other workers with your concerns. Undoubtedly, part of our present trouble is the result of us not listening enough, or not listening with a full understanding. We want to hear from you and NEED to hear from you. We have a great opportunity ahead of us, but it won’t come from quickly dismissing the reality of where we are today. We are at an important crossroads and only through genuine confession, humility and repentance will we make the right turn. We’ve got a lot of work in front of us, but I’m convinced by God’s grace our best days are ahead. With care and appreciation in Christ Darryl I find this letter quite remarkable. Kudos to Darryl, whoever he is. I have two initial reactions: 1) Why did it take you so long? 2) You will be judged by your actions not your words. I have zero inside knowledge of this situation. I have been out of the 2X2's and at peace with my decision for many years. I know/knew many really good people, both innies and outies, working to make CSA an non-issue within the fellowship, and I have to say that I was probably complacent, thinking much more progress had been made than seems apparent now. (Anyone else missing Scott Ross?) In seeing this degree of reaction, I would instinctively think that the situation is probably worse than many of us could imagine. For the record, I don't much care what two consenting adults do with their respective body parts, even if there is a lot of hypocrisy involved. I deeply care when little kids are involved, and if there is a degree of coercion, regardless of ages. To me, that is completely unacceptable, and if you have a worldview that allows you to somehow ignore/dismiss these kinds of activities, you are a disgrace of a human being. And I don't think God would view you much differently than I do. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 19, 2023 7:02:05 GMT -5
I appreciate these friends arranging this meeting with the workers and bringing matters that concern them to the workers' notice. Good, healthy and necessary for the church, the friends and the workers! It is the way forward to better days! 👍😀 We are missing some context. Who set up the meeting? Who is Shaun? I was told about Dean B by a brother who is still attends this Christianity focused social group - I haven’t paid any attention to this group for a while but have read enough over the last week to be shocked by the lack of leadership. The need for leadership around CSA has been known for 15-20 years, and yet in 2023 there is still this same minimising the harm, protecting the church’s reputation, … I left this Christianity focused social group (the ‘meetings’) a few years ago, mostly due to the lack of transparency of leadership and the narrow focus of the faith. For me, I needed to get involved in an active christianity that made an effort to help people in their lives (and one’s own life) - to support a ministry that works with the refugees, the single parents, the addicted, those who are impacted by climate change, wars etc. A calling to help people (and myself) to have more capacity in one’s life to honour and serve God. My righteousness is not my Dress code and not washing cars on Sunday, which are not matters of doctrine but custom. My righteousness is only through the blood of Jesus. I can see now that even the sending of a two by two ministry was a practice at that time/context in the New Testament. I know that the christianity focused social structure (the workers and friends) see the two by two as a point of difference/differentiation because it is New Testament practice. Evidence that it is the one true way, and if you don’t do it, you are going to hell. Well, so too was washing each others feet in the New Testament. Jesus did it. It certainly isn’t a New Testament practice that is followed in this Christianity focused social structure (the ‘meetings’). Incidentally, I did notice that the Pope recently washed the feet of young men who were in prison. I believe the gospel has a wider message for everyone - all should feel welcome, and not feel different when they attend. We know how weird the women who attend this christian focused social structure have to look. Anyway, I did tell the overseer (when I was attending) that if women/mothers had been involved in decision making about CSA issues, there would have been a better outcome. I think that about the Catholic Church, about the abuse of children in care in Australia, NZ, Canada through the years… if more mothers and women had been involved, more diversity in decision making, then I suggest the outcomes would be better. I am a professional woman with extensive experience working in government, business and education - particularly in organisation development. I would be asking the leadership who have swept this under the mat to be standing down. Each organisation, whether it be schools, government aid agencies, churches have these problems. It is the institutional response that is important. How do they handle it when this happens? Women, in this Christianity focused social structure, it is time to speak up. Get your voice at the table. You have noticed I call it a ‘Christianity focused social group/structure”. I was talking to a practising member recently (members of my family attend) and they shared with me that they were very uncomfortable with all these scandals but were not going to change their place of worship as they really liked the people they met with and didn’t like change. I guess I understand this point of view, but for me I need to have my faith practises in alignment with my Christian values. Good luck everyone making sense of this mess. Just remember Jesus; he is the one we put our faith in. He alone saves us. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2023 19:48:13 GMT -5
It was enlightening to watch the BBC documentary on the compilation of the King James Bible, and how many of the contemporaneous notes are still in the archives so we know most of the discussions and decisions made. There was a list of terms and ideas such as a "bishop" that were required to be in the KJV lest the structure of the Church of England and the status of the King as God's chosen head be called into question. But somehow it's supposed to be the only correct translation (ignore all the other languages that were translated separately!). In essence the KJV is a compromise between the Puritans and the King, it's just as tainted by an agenda (weaponized) as any other translation. Ps: for anyone not familiar, we were "KJV-only" until recently when it's become more accepted to consult other translations. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2023 21:43:19 GMT -5
My question is this. Why are the workers driving this. It is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house. Many of them have shown that they are nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing and yet it is still them calling the shots. Are the friends that lacking in gumption that they let this happen? The friends have no power unless they all band together and reject authority as a bloc. The older friends in my area are mostly oblivious, and if they do find out most will (a) not believe it and/or (b) be abhorred at the word "sexual" being spoken. So, change from below is difficult. |
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Post by Admin on May 6, 2023 20:23:52 GMT -5
Thanks matisse for focusing us on the science...
I guess your shot was as helpful as the churches CSA training...... Sorry. The Vax and boosters don't prevent Covid, they make it far less likely, if you contract it, that you will need to go to the hospital or die from it. I don't get your analogy.....Sorry. Background: You currently have Covid? Or are there Covid policies in place restricting your attendance? The latter. I am vaxed, boosted, bi-valent boosted, and had Covid last year. Our elder has it.
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Post by Admin on May 10, 2023 16:12:59 GMT -5
Public post (Facebook) by an ex sister workerAn ex sister worker posted this yesterday on Facebook (it's a public post): I’ve been wanting to post something for a couple months but I’ve been thinking and praying about this because I want it to be right. I’m disappointed. And broken-hearted. And angry. Enough is enough. When you establish a power structure (whether you meant to or not) and then pretend there is no power structure, it opens a door that allows predatory and other destructive behaviors to go unchecked. Open communication and transparency are necessary for checks and balances… how about let’s try that instead of victim shaming and “mercy” for the perpetrators of these crimes? Because they are crimes. And while I fully believe that the blood of Jesus is sufficient for the salvation of anyone who shelters under it, that does NOT remove the consequences of actions. When we see evil happening and do nothing we are part of the problem. I’ve stood by and watched from the sidelines for too long. Over and over and over I’ve heard stories of people being mistreated by their coworkers and just being told to “let it go” or “this is part of learning to forebear” Or when it happened to me assuming I was the problem… I know I’m not alone. What hurts the most is that these men and women are supposed to be carrying the most precious treasure and responsibility, sharing the gospel of Christ and caring for His people. My deepest concern in all of this is that people who have trusted in these men and women will lose their faith in God as a result of the wrong. Please let the God of all comfort heal your wounds, and draw you closer into His love as you face this experience. God is so much bigger than all of this nonsense. I would love to have a real conversation with anyone who wants to talk about it. Feel free to share Ezekiel 34:1-31 NLT bible.com/bible/116/ezk.34.1-31.NLT
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Post by Admin on May 15, 2023 23:12:46 GMT -5
That they're not owning up to what they've done, apologise and step away from the work is a reflection of their character abd conscience. Also indicative of lack of integrity. Are they waiting to see if perhaps the falling axe will miss them? It boggles me that they can still continue. Where is the respect for truth? The longer they delay to own up, the more angry people will be. My abuser said that 'God still wants him to be in the work, so he can't leave the work. God can forgive his sins by the blood of Jesus'. He was sorry that he got caught. He wasn't sorry that he abused me. His actions traumatised me. I ended up with mild PTSD. He doesn't care one bit about my well-being even though he's supposed to be 'a shepherd'. |
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Post by Admin on May 17, 2023 18:55:51 GMT -5
The good posts are coming thick and fast. Way more than one worthy one per week I think anyone by now would realise that some changes are required for the church to remain relevant and not disappear. The doctrine of exclusivity may have worked in the early 1900's, but doesn't anymore. Similarly for a number of other issues. I for one am happy to foment change from within, as it is a good system, and I am happy with my Sunday Morning Meeting. There are elders and workers on here too, and you may not have picked them yet. One thing I am very conscious of, and that is that TMB does not become bread, it is merely a forum. Recent events also help to create contacts where relevant, and maybe some victims of CSA/SA can be helped and more prevented, or a worker who has been the victim of a poor oversight decision can be helped. In brief, these are my motives. |
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Post by Admin on May 24, 2023 17:55:49 GMT -5
Heartfelt. Just a bit of punctuation (paragraphs) added for ease of reading It’s extremely clear by almost every comment above that there is literally nothing the workers can do or say in a letter that will make you happy. Even the actions of traveling thousands of miles to have a three day conference on subjects does not even phase you. Not one positive thing was said about the letters and the actions of getting together and trying to work through this mess. No hope. You sound SO self righteous, slamming your fists on the table, demanding change, demanding that things happen, and when they do, you blow it off and just find the holes and everything. You should be ashamed of yourselves. What terrible, miserable humans a lot of you come off as being on here. I ask myself… are some of these people on here truly truly truly upset with these terrible things that have happened to these precious victims and trying to be productive in finding a solution, or are they just hiding behind this and using this as ammo to push your personal agenda and anger? How many wolves in sheep clothing are on here? Be honest and ask yourself some of these things. And if they do not pertain to you, great, don’t come after me, because I am not talking to you. But there are some fishy things and inconsistencies going on here in this forum with some of these posters, and it obvious and it stinks. Damn right there’s nothing they can say in a letter to make victims happy. There sure as hell shouldn’t be. It’s very clear in their letters that they are making it all about themselves. Comforting one another etc. etc. Where’s their comfort for the abused and neglected? When and where is that change evident because just recently I have experienced the exact opposite. Along with repentance comes acceptance of the responsibility for the sins of the members and the church as someone on here gave the example in Nehemiah. Where is that kind of “spirit” in any of these letters!? And why is that the ministry will take ministry safe courses when the bible already teaches about ministry safe? Why have they been gaslighting and ghosting anyone who tries to approach them about the evil they are enduring at the hands of the most prominent and influential and wealthy? Even as recent as last week the same workers who have signed these letters and write such compelling words are continuing to dismiss the urgency of some very traumatic situations. You call this CHANGE!? “Alwaysbekind” often means, be kind to the scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites and the chief priests and elders - the same types that Jesus criticized and denounced and called them all sorts of names. No wonder they hated him and if these overseers were called exactly the same names which would describe their actions or lack of such more accurately, they would hate Jesus today just as much. Nehemiah included himself in the sins of the people as did Moses because they knew they had to be accountable in some way also. That’s honesty. I don’t see any of that kind of spirit in any of these letters, plus I have had personal dealings with many of these overseers and they STILL aren’t practicing what they preach or say. I understand that overseers have an impossible job but they have made for themselves a place that has never been the teachings or life of Jesus. It shouldn’t be possible. Along with repentance is the need for recompense. You can see that when Zachias met Jesus and when he said that he would repay 4 times what he took from others that’s when Jesus said salvation came to his house. Jesus never handled money but he allowed those in his ministry to do so if they wanted to. That’s still not the example of Jesus and it’s not difficult to understand that workers that have access to money are already living a part of Judas whether they think they’re being accountable or not. Personal agenda and anger!!?? So much neglect and abuse IS personal and DOES generate anger! Even Jesus showed anger on more than one occasion and it was always directed at those that supported the same system that is happening today in the truth. The scribes and Pharisees and chief priests and elders of Jesus’s day were friends and workers, just not the friends or workers that would follow Jesus in such a lowly manner of life. So if you want to be productive and help find solutions to all this hierarchy inspired genesis, then quit sympathizing with those that are only dealing with the problems they are publicly and legally pressured to do so. All the answers are in Jesus. The overseers themselves need to take a good look at their own lives that isn’t in line with Jesus and use their filthy money to repay those that they have either wilfully or ignorantly ignored and abused. There’s just so much that is wrong that it’s going to have to take a very hard line approach against ALL of the injustices in the truth and that means someone that isn’t wishy washy. Someone like Jesus. Oh right he’s returning and in a manner that no one who is complicit is or complacent is expecting or ready for. Maybe that’s the only way anything will be dealt with properly and with care and kindness and vengeance for the most uncared for. |
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Post by Admin on May 29, 2023 20:55:18 GMT -5
Maria's letter
(re-posted, from mid-May)
To those who need to hear this:
I was a sister worker for approximately five years. There was such joy and love and people were incredibly kind. However, those things cannot negate some of the systemic problems within the ministry that have only been highlighted by the recent news of despicable behavior by some of the brother workers and the resulting cover-ups.
When I left the work, I was absolutely traumatized. It’s not a time I particularly like to think or talk about. However, I want to share it here because I’m not alone in this trauma. I don’t think anyone that leaves the work comes out perfectly fine. We all leave pretty messed up and it’s not because we didn’t pray enough or we lost our calling. It’s because the way the work is set up now is a recipe for burnout and trauma. We get in the car with a companion, a suitcase, and prayers. And sure, that’s enough to sustain for a while. You read and you pray and you copy the routines of your older companion because they seem to know what they are doing. You pour your heart and soul into finding something that feeds your heart in order to share it with others in gospel meetings. And it works. For a time. You love the people you are serving. You feel like you are helping them. Sure there’s this brother worker texting you in a way that you aren’t sure is entirely appropriate. But you’re happy. There truly is so much joy and people are so good to you.
And time goes on. And you experience more of the love of God’s people. And you go on your first special meeting rounds as a worker. You're surrounded by people who know nothing about you and they are curious about your story. Sometimes that curiosity borders on rude because people just want to know where this brown sister worker came from and don't really want anything edifying other than the satisfaction of their own curiosity but there are truly some amazing people among the friends and they love you even before they meet you simply because of the God you serve.
You’re so busy now. You’re running around having three gospel meetings a week and bible studies and you’re learning so much. You’ve decided to read through the bible in chronological order and you feel so connected to God when you pray. But you bought a silly fictional book on your kindle app to read in your “downtime” and now you feel so guilty for spending the friend’s money on something so frivolous so you buckle down and try to do even better. You pray harder and give more of yourself to the people in their homes. And you truly love them all and want only the best things for them and when they share hard stuff with you and your companion you listen and learn and try to help. But there’s still this brother worker texting you in a way that you’re sure now is inappropriate but now you feel like you’re the one who encouraged it because every time you’ve told him to stop and he didn't you still responded and now it’s all your fault so you’re just kind of sick all the time underneath all the happy.
But things are still really good. You’ve experienced convention and preps and special meeting rounds and seen what a miracle it is that it works. Yeah, it's a little cringey that the sister workers do the laundry and the cooking while the brothers do "manly" tasks like it's 1950, but it’s so good to be around the other workers.
Your brown skin itches when you stay in a bedroom with a gigantic confederate flag on the wall or when one of the friends says something so racist you want to vomit, but you shake it off and continue moving forward. And more time goes on and you block that inappropriate brother worker on your cell phone and when he starts sending emails you block him there and when he sends you letters you throw them away. You feel so much better now and are reinvigorated. Sure you have a coworker that uses guilt and shame as a tool to try and control you and who you don’t agree with about much of anything but it’s just for a year. And when your companion through ignorance answers friends in ways that can retraumatize people you cringe and try to mitigate the damage but you’re just a kid really and aren’t quite equipped with the correct tools yourself. You can get through it. The friends are amazing in your field and you love them and they care for you and despite everything, you make it through by the grace of God and the friends.
Now you've been in the work for two and a half years and you're sent on another out of state special meeting rounds. It's an honor and a privilege you're told. And you land and it's a whirlwind of meeting new people and traveling and you don't even have a second to process. And soon you're riding up with one of the local sisters to stay the night at someone's home and you're told that the father of the home no longer lives there because he was caught doing something inappropriate to one of the children in the home. However, that same father is coming over for supper because, apparently, since it's special meeting time he needs a special meeting visit too. And you can't say no and scream at how insane that is because you're young and a sister and this isn't even your state but you watch him like a hawk all through supper. And quietly look up the local hotline and make a mandated report once he leaves because it's very clear that neither the local sister or the mother understand what supervised visits means, as they let him go outside to play with the kids when neither of them intended to go out there with him. But you hardly have a minute to process this insanity because you're going from home to home every night and being told that maybe the fact that I exist as a half black, half white human is God's way of fixing all this race stuff even though this particular person "never understood the whole interracial marriage thing."
And on it goes. So much joy and goodness heaped on you that every time you take a breath or feel the need to be just a person and not a worker the guilt nearly cripples you. When at the end of the year your overseer says your companion told him you're too radical and vocal about anti-racism, too liberal, too young to truly understand the way the world works you tuck your rage and hurt inside, and continue going forward. And looking back now, choke on the hypocrisy of reprimanding a young sister worker for speaking up about racism when brothers are running around covering up whole affairs. And soon, some of the hard stuff friends share with you starts bringing up some of your own hard stuff. And again, you don’t quite have the tools to handle it and your companion doesn’t quite have the tools to handle your crazy but it’s still ok. She’s trying her best to help you and you’re trying your best to be ok. You still feel God’s presence when you pray and you still find something to share for gospel meetings so it’s all ok. But you keep on going because the good so much outweighs the bad. And you go and you go and you try and you try until you just can’t anymore and you’re sitting alone in a hotel room with a bottle of pills ready to take your own life. But through timely intervention, you instead go home and have no money and no education and are totally traumatized and sick and have to figure out where you go from here.
This is just my story. Now I want to get to the point of why I’m sharing this.
First is communication. Communicate with new workers. Communicate with the field. Communicate about what's going on in other fields and other parts of the country. Don't communicate with just a select few. Communicate with everyone. Workers go into the work with no guidelines or idea of what they are getting themselves into. They have no idea what is appropriate behavior and what isn't. A code of conduct would go a long way towards clearing up some of that confusion. Also, communicating about whether there are alleged sex offenders in the field is a must. You made me complicit in endangering children by not telling me there was an alleged offender going to one of the meetings in my field. If workers don't know about the offenders that have been reported in the past, how can we make decisions about where people go to meetings or who is allowed at gospel meetings? Because you better believe I would not have been quiet about allowing children to attend any sort of gathering where an alleged sex offender would have access to them. Where children are concerned we can't take any chances and you make all of us complicit in endangering them when you don't make it known who these offenders are alleged or otherwise. Let's err on the side of protecting victims rather than protecting sex offenders. Zoom and Microsoft Teams are amazing things and those under investigation can attend meetings that way.
On that note, another thing that workers need to make an effort to do is be in touch with what is actually going on in the world and what the friends are actually dealing with. This is something that's hard to describe and something I only recognized once I left the work but it's so important. Workers are insulated. The friends are a buffer between the rest of the world and them. And this doesn't work for several reasons. First, it gives workers a skewed perspective of what humanity is. The friends are on their best behavior around the workers. In contrast, it makes the people who don't go to meetings look worse. This makes workers think that the friends are just better people and makes them want to give the friends the benefit of the doubt. In reality, we are all human. Just because a sex offender goes to meetings, doesn't mean he or she is any less prey to their compulsions then a sex offender that doesn't go to meetings. Not only does this layer of disconnect from the real world skew their beliefs about human behavior, it also disconnects them from some of the very real issues that the friends face in their day to day lives. It also, somehow makes workers think technology is bad. Making it possible for people to attend meetings via Zoom or Microsoft Teams is not the same as being an evangelical television preacher.
Next, sister workers need to speak up. We need you guys to have a voice and a say in the things that are happening. I understand that it’s hard to see yourselves in any position of authority. And many of you sister workers have said you have no desire to be in any position of authority. But here’s the thing. You may not be able to picture it or have the desire for it, but WE the people you are teaching and loving and helping NEED you to have it. This ridiculous hierarchy among the workers needs to change. The fact that a person is male, does not automatically mean that they should have a meeting and speak for 45 minutes at the end of a special meeting or a convention meeting. By putting a hierarchy on the speaking list, you are automatically telling people, some words are more weighty then others. And that should not be the case since all those words should be coming from God.
Brother workers have their place and the vast majority of them are good men, I'm sure. However, they have shown that they are ok with covering up bad behavior. They have shown that they don’t understand what is and isn’t appropriate behavior. Child sexual abuse is always awful and needs to be dealt with directly by the authorities. I think we are all slowly getting on the same page there though a lot of progress needs to be made. However, when brother workers are having affairs with women in the fellowship, aside from not living what they preach, there is a power imbalance that makes this behavior unacceptable as well. They can lie and coerce and lay the blame on the victim and tell their victims they won’t be believed. And somehow, at the end of it all, they can make their victims believe it was consensual or the victim’s fault for tempting them. We need both brother and sister worker overseers to ensure this kind of thing doesn’t get swept under the rug or treated as simply a slip-up or an opportunity to shuffle workers around. We need sister workers to have input on companion lists so abusive behavior from older to younger sister workers doesn’t get overlooked or allowed to continue. We need to hear from the sisters that things will change and not just from brother workers. Sisters are the voice of the vulnerable and the victimized. They are often easier for victims to approach and yet, they have to turn their concerns over to brothers and have those same brothers shut it down or cover it up. That needs to change. I, for one, am sick to death of hearing meaningless apologies from brothers. I want to hear from our sisters that they aren't going to tolerate this behavior anymore either.
Since workers are going into people’s homes, they need to give those same people guidelines on how to keep their families safe. We do not know the hearts of people and workers need to do what they can do to protect the most vulnerable among us. Dean and others like him, had access because people inherently trust the workers. So we need to do better in telling them about how to have guests safely in their homes. For instance, have the children sleep upstairs or even in the parent’s room when they have workers in the home.
Lastly, finances. My own experience was fraught with what I could and couldn’t spend money on. Nobody told me what to do with the money that was given to me. It was left to me to decide what to do with it and so I’d give some away to people I thought needed it and then just hang on to it or very rarely buy something frivolous like an audiobook that I’d always feel guilty about doing. There needs to be both guidance for the workers and oversight of those finances.
There is more I could say about secondary trauma and retraumatization of victims. I could talk about how exiting the work is handled or not handled. I could even talk about racism among the friends and workers since it was such a key component of my own story or discuss the unrealistic idea that workers need to be "on-call" 24-7. However, I will let this rest for now and hope that my voice added to the many others calling for change will help make a difference too.
A sister,
Maria
P.S. Feel free to share this. I don't mind at all.
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Post by Admin on Jun 2, 2023 17:58:53 GMT -5
Two heartfelt and very open and honest posts from jonathan, one of the workers who participate on TMB: If a professional team has diligently sought to do all that could reasonably be expected from them in a situation with a challenge as serious as this, and they encounter barriers of resistance there needs to be done more. The suffering of the victims are crying out. Not for justice, as God Himself will meet out proper justice at the coming of His Son. But the cry is for all to feel safe in the fellowship. If a measure of justice is served, that's a bonus because we don't fight for justice. We don't have bitter hearts seeking for revenge. Our hearts are tender, meek, loving, caring and very concerned for innocent and vulnerable persons. God will see to it that His lambs are cared for. He will see to it that the wolves and dogs be dealt with. It never has gone well with any that thought they could go against God. If ever, the time has come for each and everyone to do the honourable thing. A big thank you to every victim/survivor that has found the courage and hope and came forward. We respect you for that and we esteem you as overcomers. Also a big thank you to everyone that has cooperated with Cynthia Liles and her team. I am sure we will never really know how much has gone on behind the scenes. And a very big apology from me to any who have had their faith shaken, seen their confidence eroded and perhaps have even turned their back on God. I want to plead with you, that salvation is by grace through faith and not by a system or a religion. It still is a very, very personal thing between each person and their Creator. Mote than ever before, we need to look past anybody abd anything else and make sure we see Christ. On the mountain of transfiguration the disciples saw Moses and Elias and it was quite a remarkably thing. But, that wasn't the reason why they were up there. The best was still to come. Matthew 17:8 and Mark 9:8 "They saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves". A lot has happened the last while, no doubt. God is still on the throne and still in control! |
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Post by Admin on Jun 29, 2023 20:56:47 GMT -5
One of the things I always enjoyed about mtgs, Sunday or Wed night, was even though it was often a pain trying to find something good (the bible being the common touch stone) you could relate to. Making it a living testimony. Seems everyone in the mtg tried to do that too which made it an uplifting and worth while time. What world did YOU live in? I saw so many "Sunday morning Christians". Their meeting testimony (Sunday, Wednesday, convention, special meeting) would include how they would long to be more Christ-like, etc, and following the meeting and through the week they could be heard saying things that were in total opposite to the "desire" in their testimony. Backstabbing fellow friends, making racist and anti-other-religion comments, among other things. I know this is human nature and happens in other religions too, but it irritated me to see it directly in front of me by those who I was expected to show respect for. I could not then, and to this day do not have any respect for many of those people. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 29, 2023 21:35:42 GMT -5
I agree Jonathan but sometimes just by attempting to question workers you’re instantly shot down and branded as an unbeliever and shunned. As you can see on this forum, that causes a lot of distress, and when people push back against the bullying workers, the workers see them as a problem and excommunicate them. I don’t feel comfortable at all being around these people who think they’re so important. God doesn’t need any of them if they’re that unapproachable and lacking willingness to discuss doctrines or problems with ANYONE without respect of persons. In our country, if you blindly follow the workers and have a meeting or are connected to a lot of family (especially well to do members) you automatically have the blessings of the workers and they will stand behind you even when you have no inclination to do many things that were commanded by Jesus. |
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Post by Admin on Jul 5, 2023 18:48:51 GMT -5
A courageous response and exactly what is required. Actually I think it works well coming from the owners. The elders need to step up more and not just be rugs for walking on - this leads to better accountability. Yep. Good for them. This is exactly what a response looks like if you are serious about a zero tolerance policy. Like others, I am still waiting to see why this no nonsense approach did not come from the overseers decades ago. Why were so many of them content with having only the appearance of dealing with these matters? What was the pay off for them? Were there more pedophiles protecting other pedophiles than we could ever imagine? Were there more pedophiles with other compromising material on other leadership than we could ever imagine? Or was leadership so arrogant and self-deluded that they really felt like they are gods on this earth and nothing about them should ever be scrutinized or questioned? Were they so arrogant and self-deluded that they honestly thought they could bend reality itself, by not acknowledging the harm and discounting the integrity of the victims? A question many, many of us have been wondering about. Why ten, fifteen, twenty years ago when this first started coming out of the darkness into the light, did the senior overseers not deal with it all as criminal and immoral behavior within the F&W church? What about it being clearly deeply sinful and offensive to righteous God? Why did they side almost exclusively with the worker-perpetrators in face of what this clearly was (and still is)? Why? Why? Why? It actually beggars belief. |
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Post by Admin on Jul 18, 2023 17:10:04 GMT -5
This week's PoW is for Trevor Larsen and his convention message (even though Trevor's not yet a TMB member - as far as we know ) This is what Trevor said when it was his time to speak at Hermosa ConventionLetter to the church, whether or not you attend meetings Jul 18 All my life I have preferred to stay out of the spotlight, to quietly try to fill my place and do my part. Unfortunately, there sometimes comes a time where it is necessary to be willing to stand for what is right while others sit silently by. I recently went to Hermosa convention with a testimony burned on my heart. For days I wrestled with it, prayed and meditated on it. Asked if it could come from someone else, asked if I could give the testimony and the words be remembered, but not the speaker. Sometimes the answer that we receive is no, and that was my answer. I will not deny the message that God has put on my heart. I will not stand idly by while evil and self-interest pervades God’s people. I stood in the first meeting and spoke my message. As close as I can recall it: “I have come here with a message upon my heart, and I will have no peace until I share it. David committed a terrible crime. He used his power to take that which was not his, and then used his power to cover it up. He was forgiven, but there were consequences, and he became unworthy to build God’s temple. There will be a day when forgiveness is absolute, in eternity forgiveness will have no consequences and no loss of worthiness. But we are not in eternity, and while we are on earth there are consequences and there can be a loss of worthiness. Lately we have been hearing stories of those who used their power to commit terrible acts, and stories of those who used their power to cover those acts up. There can be forgiveness, but there are consequences and there is a loss of worthiness. Some have become unworthy of having fellowship in our homes – especially ones with the most innocent and vulnerable. Some have become unworthy to be a part of God’s ministry. Every year we hear from the platform about that desperate need in the harvest field. There is a need, but that need might not seem so desperate if the worthy ministers were not unevenly yoked with the unworthy and with wolves.” This is not a message I feel worthy to speak on but is a message that I must share. There seems to be a thought amongst some that the only way to be saved is to attend meetings. That casting people from our fellowship homes is relegating people to hell. That is not true. We do not need meetings to be saved, we need a close personal relationship with God. Abusers that are truly repentant will see that they are a danger to the meetings and accept that they have lost worthiness. They will accept that there are places that they cannot go, that there are positions that they are unworthy of. The ones who fight against those consequences are the ones who are not repentant. Growing up reading the bible I was aware that there were going to be false ministers, that there were going to be wolves in sheep’s clothing hiding among the flock. So, when the stories originally came out I was sad, but not surprised. What did surprise me were the stories that kept coming out about all of those who used their position to sweep things under the rug. To tell victims of terrible abuse that they needed to forgive their abusers and to not involve the law. Hearing of workers, who were known to be abusers, moved to a different state rather than removed from the ministry and arrested. I cannot begin to express the hate that has raged in my heart since hearing those stories. We are to be like God. To love the things that God loves and to hate the things that God hates. God hates the abuse of his little ones. God hates that the abusers are allowed to remain in his ministry. God hates that ministers in positions of power would prefer to do that which is easy to that which is right. It's easy to pass off the blame. It’s easy to tell victims that they need to forgive their abusers. It’s easy to allow people to remain in meetings, to allow ministers to remain in the ministry. None of it is right. Mathew 23:24 “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” Why is there such a strain to tell survivors to forgive those who are not even repentant. Why is that the gnat that causes such consternation. You have swallowed the camel that is sexual assault. You have swallowed the camel that is abuse. Mathew 23:25 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.” I will name no names in this letter. I do not know who the righteous are and who the unrighteous are. The overseers and the workers know who among them is unworthy. The elders and meetings know who among them is unworthy. They know who clings to power. They know who (Matthew 23:26) “love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and chief seats at the synagogues.” Cast them out. There are few things that Jesus said that are said in multiple gospels. One thing that was said in Mathew, Mark, and Luke was deemed important enough to be included in 3 of them. Mark 9:42 “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” That verse isn’t just for the people who have perpetrated abuse. Not just for those who swept it under the rug. That verse is also for those who sat idly by. Those who, through their lack of standing against evil, caused offence. In testimony we also heard at Hermosa that in the parable of the good Samaritan that it was the fault of the thieves that the man was in a ditch on the side of the road. But that as soon as the Levite and priest saw and did nothing, they were why that man was still in the ditch. John Stuart Mill wrote “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” Too many have done nothing. Too many have walked on the other side of the road while the wounded were dying. Too many have trusted that others knew best. Do not deceive yourself. You know what is best, you know what Jesus would do. He would cast the evil out. I have seen many letters from those who have stopped coming to meetings, explaining why – the wrong that they saw in the church. This is my letter as to why I have stayed. It is not because I need the fellowship. Never have I learned or grown more in my personal relationship with God, than during Covid when we had no fellowship meetings. I stayed, because I love the friends. It is because I believe that this is the closest thing to what Jesus taught. I have stayed because I believe that change must come from within. I am unafraid of being asked not to share. I am unafraid of being asked not to attend. Mathew 10:28 “Fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” I have seen the pride that people have in what family people come from. People revering “good families” as if the next generation inherits the testimony of the prior. I have seen people looked down on because they aren’t from the white middle or upper class. I have seen the pervasion of tradition being treated as scripture. I have seen people create rules and treat them as if they are the law. I have not been blind. I have tried to do everything I can to push back on those wrongs, but now I publicly state the feelings of my heart on these issues. Some of the worst offences we have seen are by those who come from a “good family” and “made a mistake”. That attitude is what allows repeat offenders to continue their offences. A lot of the offences are pushed under the rug because they are committed on those that are seen as on the fringes of the flock. Offenders can sense who the most vulnerable are. They can sense who the flock does not fully welcome. They target them and go free, because people don’t care as much about them. I will not dance around the issues with niceties and platitudes. Often it is the poor, the ones from broken homes, and the minorities who get no consideration. When they face abuse and cry out, they are the most likely to be told what happened was their own fault. There is an issue with racism. There is an issue with classism. There is an issue with elitism. There is an issue with sexism. There is an issue with tradition. God’s way is perfect, but men are trying to walk it imperfectly. These are the imperfections. These are the reasons that it took so long for these issues to come to light. Unless I am asked not to, I will consider myself a part of this way, but I will not accept the wrongs that are pervading it. It may feel less important than some of the terrible wrongs that have been happening, but it is also important to stamp out the littler things. The tradition of it being evil or wrong for women to wear pants or have their hair down is something that should have been left in the past. The continued control of how women look, and dress is about control and shame. There is no reason that people dress in a specific way to go to fellowship meetings. How many people who would have happily shared fellowship with us have been turned aside by something that is not biblical and is treated as if it is. It is not because they are unwilling, it is because they see something that is not of God. It is easier to blame others than look within. Do what is right, not what is easy. Look within the fellowship, cast out traditions, prove the ministers, and live for God. Trevor Larsen Fargo, ND |
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Post by Admin on Jul 31, 2023 19:30:10 GMT -5
Makes you wonder how many of these older workers knew stuff and did nothing for the kingdoms sake but now act as if they care by sending and spamming propaganda letters. I reckon most of the older guys that are still active knew stuff, how could they not because it's there business to know everyone else's business, its what they do as they have nothing else to do..... |
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2023 21:28:36 GMT -5
bgm , sheri01 , This news is probably worth a Public Service Announcement on WINGS and AFTT. Many older professing people still correspond via physical mail. Survivors or their families writing Ray Hoffmann should be warned that Leslie will be handling their letters as an intermediary. At a minimum, Leslie will be able to view any names and return addresses of those corresponding with Ray visible on the envelopes. There are almost certainly other professing elders known to be "under a cloud" handling mail for the overseers. They can probably guess which letters might involve themselves. Survivors should be encouraged to contact the overseers via email or take additional security measures such as using no return address and privacy envelopes if they insist on sending a physical letter. |
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