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Post by Admin on Jan 23, 2010 16:12:27 GMT -5
DC, I'm not arguing a spiritual heritage and never have. All I am saying is that the fellowship was started/established/founded in a physical sense by men that had no contact with obscure European Christian fellowship movements. To claim otherwise is deceitful and misleading and given the fallout from lies/insinuation/obfuscating in the past, it is reckless to try to present fantastical yearnings as possible fact. Never mind the rambling memoirs of some old duffer who claims WI's sister had a dream/set out chairs for the meeting/travelled to Italy etc. Those stories do not have any credibility amongst the families in Ireland that have direct descent from the early friends and workers. They never have. There have been those amongst them that are as keen as Nathan to have a physical link with any obscure itinerant ministry in order to verify the "Shores of Galilee" nonsense but they know the truth about the origins of the fellowship. The early workers and friends were as capable then as they are now of putting an appealing spin to a story to make the truth more palatable and that is what R Darling was doing. I know about the spin - my own family indulged in it at a time too. That and bankrolling the fledgling movement right from the very start. Bankrolling men that hadn't travelled further than their own townland in many cases, much less Europe and certainly for most, a cursory education that would have fallen short in teaching of Vaudois, Old Men of Lyons etc. Nathan ought to visit Ireland and speak to those that are just one generation removed from the beginnings and he'll learn how fanciful the claims to a link are. At least Cherie Kropp bothered to investigate at a nut and bolts level which to my mind gives her research infinitely more credibility than that of those that haven't. Which of course includes one Dr. Janean who inspite of all his academic nous, didn't bother to talk to the older friends and workers in Ireland either.
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Post by Admin on Jan 25, 2010 19:01:00 GMT -5
Hi, I am professing and attending meetings in NZ. We don't hear workers dissing other churches so much, we used to, but I feel this way is progressing and growing up. My personal feelings are that I have no right to judge another and I am so conscious that living a Christian life while still possessing a human body and mind etc that I have many short comings myself. We all have different minds and as such place different interpretations on things we read and hear, so therefore Christianity is Christ within, not a particular "way" or "religion" but more a conscience guided way of life. Why do I go to meetings? ask that to someone attending weight loss meetings such as weighsweet thingchers why they go. You perhaps don't need to attend meetings to loose weight nor do you need to subscribe to any particular group, but if you do, it is great to talk with those that have the same philosophy as you, and it helps to keep you focused on the end goal and how you are applying yourself to get there. I was born into this way and as a teen decided that this wasn't the only way to heaven. I looked at a lot of other church groups and compared them to what I read in the bible and found that this was the group of people that best lined up with what I interpreted from Christs' teachings. I believe that God will judge with judgement that is far different than we have ever imagined in this life, there will be many that we feel are sure candidates for heaven that wont be in that final number and many many more who we judge as not worthy that will be in paradise. Peace to you and yours BC
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Post by mod1 on Jan 30, 2010 20:54:42 GMT -5
As nominated by dietcoke: Wow What a mess! I have been reading this thread for a couple of days now and I keep coming back to one thought. Both sides of this argument are from the same faith. You are all christians. You all believe in the Christian god and you all believe in Jesus. You have more things in common than not! The truth of the matter is, the "truth" needs to come clean and tell the truth about their history. It is the ethical and moral thing to do. When I found out about this WI thing, I was far more open to listening to those who replied and acknowledged the history than those who didn't. I suspect I'm not unique in that. There is a very real opportunity for the 2x2 faith to go forward from here as an open book, instead of having to watch what you say and hide things. It may initially be a difficult transition and that's usually what happens when something has been "hidden". But once it has been done, it opens up for a whole new level of understanding and communication. Change is always scary, but honesty means there can be openness. Because I have been out for so long I don't feel any urge to side with either side. From where I stand, I see two sides that are both hurting and upset. The workers can heal that. I see what this has done to those who feel betrayed. I also see what it is doing to those who want to stay and feel like they need to defend that choice. My heart goes out to you all. I spoke to an old friend who is a 2x2 a couple of weeks ago and they know about WI, found out in the 90's I think. It blew them away at first and shook their faith but they have made the choice to stay in the fellowship because it still feeds their souls. I support that decision wholeheartedly. She seemed to feel it was necessary to defend that position to me and I told her right off the top. NO, do not defend something that means everything to you. I would have no right to judge that, not ever. I have learned over the years that it is sooo important to be true to oneself. If the 2x2's feeds your souls, wonderful, it is your "way". If it does not, then find out what does. I did that and at complete peace with where I am. But imo, neither side should be made to feel as though they need to defend what their hearts and souls are telling them is right for them. Some exs are bitter, it is part of the grieving process. We all go through that when we lose something that meant alot to us. I say time will heal, it did for me, and the bitterness will fade. Being compassionate with where we are all at, is important to "bridge" the split between the two "positions". I love conversing with all of you. I am not even a christian anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't value you all and respect your beliefs. When it comes right down to it, people in the truth and the ex's have more in common than I do with either side. Words create an energy of their own. The more you converse this way, the harder it's going to be to reconcile because there is a bigger hill to climb over all the feelings that have been hurt. I apologize in advance if this offends anyone, but it has been my thoughts reading this and I decided to share that.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2010 14:52:59 GMT -5
Had a couple of recommendations for this: One thing for sure, this board has always been good for a good laugh! Wasn't quite sure under which topic I should stick this comment, but as I did a browse I realised that so many of them had a common theme.....THE ORIGINS. The dreaded origins. The beginning. The truth about the origins. William Irvine! The reason, apparently, so many of you on this forum (you know who you are)are so bitter and messed up today and cannot move on with your lives. Now listen up, please understand this TRUTH. While you dedicate your lives year after year to harping on about the truth about origins and bashing workers and friends and digging up articles about the fellowship and comparing tales about which workers ruined your lives, my dear folks, do you not understand that the fellowship is alive, healthy, growing and loved all around the world by many and that those who love it, feel happy and blessed to be a part of it and that frankly you're seen as pitiful??
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 9, 2010 14:21:17 GMT -5
nominated by me. It is probably safe to say that the us vs. them is a comfort zone for a lot of people... it's prevalent in preschool play circles all the way to the grave. We find another person or group that matches our ideas in one way or another and it provides the security of not being alone. It's good to be self analyzing enough to figure out if our little security zone is really a safe or wise place to be. Dissing all other groups, besides your own, is a childish and self centered tent that won't stand any storm. There's real stability and security in a group if it sticks together for other reasons, like friendship, love, or common purpose. I find that in our meetings, there are very few who disrespect other churches. The references are rare, but quite grating when they happen. They seem to be made by people of little experience outside the fellowship, or the very young who want to please God, but haven't borne a lot of the fruits of the Spirit yet. I think of the times I've been in funerals and other services of Catholic and Protestant churches. Because I haven't been there hundreds of times, their format and traditions have made me uncomfortable at times. Because I don't understand all the beliefs behind what they are doing, some of their doings seem empty to me. Because the same words are read every time, they have seem "canned" to me sometimes. When the collection plate is passed, or a "plea for $" speech happens, it cheapens the holy atmosphere for me. The differences between our own way of operating and the ways of others can cause that "us vs. them" attitude. I think it's every person's responsibility to accept that we don't understand others and all their beliefs, but we are obligated to treat them with care and consideration anyway, which dispells the "us vs. them". The better I get to know people, other than my circle of faith friends, the more I respect them as simply other struggling souls just like me, trying to do what's right. That gives me permission to love them and let God sort us out in the end. When we just mind our own business and do our best in every day and every situation to have the essence of Christ within, we do well. Still trying to get that right! Best regards.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 20, 2010 8:16:38 GMT -5
This from Elaine Jesse you wrote: Does "this" refer to grace, saved, or faith?According to scripture it refers to all three. All of salvation is the gift of God. The Gospel brings a message of hope and life through the work of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The true Gospel of God’s grace gives all the glory for salvation to God, leaving no room for a man to boast in anything he has done in order to get saved or stay saved. It is not a message that is difficult to understand. It is a plain and simple message. Man is dead in sin and cannot come to God in and of himself (Matt. 19:25,26; Rom. 3:10,11; 5:12; Eph. 2:1,12); no man by nature understands God and therefore does not, and cannot, seek the true God; without God man has no hope. This teaching is the launching pad for grace. It introduces people to grace and the fact that no part of salvation is conditioned on anything else but grace. Salvation is not by the will of man but the will of God according to His grace and mercy. God chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world, not based on anything they did or would do, but upon His will, wisdom and grace and according to His purpose (Eph. 1:3-6; 2 Tim. 1:9); salvation is according to the election of grace and not by the works of man. (Rom. 11:5; Gal. 2:16) Christ Jesus was sent to the earth to establish a perfect righteousness by obeying the law, and dying, as the Representative of, and a Substitute for, those people God had chosen and entrusted to Christ’s care (Jn. 10:27,28; 17:2,3; Eph. 5:25); their sins had to be atoned for and would be charged to Him and His Righteousness to them, thus making them wholly acceptable unto God. (2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 5:2) These people would all be taught of God and made willing in the day of His power to love and believe the same Gospel, God's only Gospel and be saved, for this is the will of God and none of them will ever perish (Jn. 10:26-29). This, in a nutshell, is the Gospel of God's Grace. Crucial to understanding this Gospel is to release ANY human thought of gaining or attaining salvation any other way. It's not what we do, but who He is and what He has done! God says "...by the obedience of one (Jesus Christ) shall many be made righteous" (Romans 5:19) and it is because of this that a Christian is "...complete in Him..." (Colossians 2:10). There is nothing that the Christian lacks which Christ his Savior has not provided. It is by the Righteousness of one that the free gift of salvation has come. Being made righteous means to be in right standing with God, to be acceptable unto Him and to be justified in His sight. It is only because of Christ that a man is saved and remains saved. What better news could there possibly be for man, who struggles with sin in his daily efforts to be good and obedient to God, than to learn that salvation, which demands perfection, is not conditioned on him but on the Savior, Jesus Christ, and what He has done for His people! This is God’s Message of salvation— this is God’s Good News. Righteous living as a Christian happens because Christ is living in true believers, for without Him they can do nothing. Sincerely, Elaine.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 21, 2010 9:10:08 GMT -5
I thought Jason's response really helped qualify the substance of Elaine's post. Elaine, you wrote the following and it found its way onto the Post of the Week. This "saved by Grace alone" theory is standard, boiler plate text stuff. It is a doctrine advanced by none other authority than the Apostle Paul who explains in more than one place that we are not saved by works. There is few more emphatic teachings in the New Testament than this: Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. There are a collection of statements here, all of which lead us to a fuller appreciation of God's central role in human salvation as the first cause of all that happens. We are saved, writes Paul, by grace through faith. Faith is the means by which God has always dealt with his saints, but this faith which enables us to apprehend grace does not come from ourselves. This faith is not self-manufactured, nor is it the result of a mere human decision. Rather, saving faith is the gift of God. It is not from ourselves that we obtain faith, but rather we are given it. And it leads us to grace, and through grace salvation. "We are saved", writes Paul, "by grace". It is not by works. Herein we begin to see the "golden chain of redemption" being made manifest - God is in the centre; there is no room for human boasting. No man can even boast of having made a "choice" to serve God, for such faith does not come from man but from God! But Paul goes further to say that we are, in fact, God's workmanship. He has created us through Christ to do good works he has forordained before we were ever called or converted; according to God's sovereign purpose. In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Paul writes again in the Romans: Romans 4:4-8 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”The question for those who would deny that we are justified by grace and not by works, is: who is the blessed man? Who is the blessed man spoken of by both David and Paul in this passage? Can we, can I, be this blessed man? No it certainly does not. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine, and one incidentally, which Paul had to grapple with. If our objections to any doctrine are the same as those found in the mouths of the unbelievers that Paul condemned, I think that we ought to give the much greater heed to our doctrine. It is not a good place to be if our arguments are the same as those who repudiated the Apostles: Romans 3:8 Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved. Paul's doctrine of free grace was mischaracterised by "slanderous reporters" as a license to sin. His preaching was such that this was the message and attitude the world derived: "Paul is teaching that we can sin and get away with it". That is the world's response to the message of free forgiveness and abundant grace, but the fact that some may use God's grace as a "cloke for sin" does not mean that it is not the doctrine upon which the entire salvation of elect men is predicated. I would agree with this statement. Being saved by grace alone does not relieve of our obligations to serve God; to be a holy people. Nor did the Reformers, or any knowledgeable Protestant preach as such for the past five-hundred years. Works are an important part of our Christian expression of faith - and this has been the consistent declaration of all who embrace this most biblical doctrine. The Apostle confirms our persuasion: Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?When saved by grace and "born from above" we die to a love for sin and no longer live therein. We become "slaves of righteousness" and we keep God's commandments. They are not grevious to us. Hence grace does not abolish works or the need for our obedience, but rather establishes them in their proper place.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 1, 2010 23:22:47 GMT -5
Recommended by snow for post of the week: I would rather I didn't have to put a VS in between knowledge and experiencing God (I don't think that it is always the case that they stand against eachother) but I have observed lately that often what we think we know can hold us back from what God is wanting to do, or how He is wanting to talk in this season. We often defend our knowledge with such defensiveness that we miss out on what the bible is actually saying - LOVE. It was no different in Jesus time the leaders and those who studied the law wanted to debate, but not out of a desire to draw eachother nearer to God but out of a desire to "be right". I have recently been spending some time asking the Holy Spirit about why is it often the western church prefers to stop at knowledge over experience of God. Especially when we see how the SPirit of God pours out in amazing measures in poor countries. Why are we not asking for the same.. and expecting it? Now I know that there will be some respond - "their teaching is not biblically sound" or "the fruit of the spirit is more important than the gifts of the Spirit). I'm not interested in justifying one church over another, I'm not interested in putting down one denomination and uplifting another... I am not making any of these statements "salvation issues" -God loves all His kids. I'm just saying.. if God is opening blind eyes and raising the dead in Africa are you asking Him to visit your church in the same way.. if others are experiencing the power of God in physical tangible ways are your humble and childlike enough to not get offended but say "Father - we want some too!!!" This just feed on knowledge (church and biblestudy) and not experience the power of God is not the example Jesus left, neither is it what was going on in Acts church. Jesus himself said if the works of the Father don't follow me then don't believe what I say. Are we expecting too little from God? Are we too busy doing life... or even doing "church". Are we too busy thinking of our own prayers to listen to the Father and hear what His heartbeat is saying and pray in line with that? Do we know too much... and so we have lost our heart of curiosity to discover the heart and person of an unlimited God. DO we expect too little...? "You do not have because you do not ask God" James 4:2 We see massive miraculous out pourings in other parts of the world and yet the western church on the whole is experiencing God in such limited measures. Often "doing" church in a way that doesn't require God to "show up" for things to continue as planned- in fact the opportunity for Him to do the miraculous is often not even created. AS I pondered these things I started to read the beatitudes in Matthew and I observed that it says "blessed are the poor.. blessed are the persecuted... for their's is the kingdom of heaven". This satisfied me a little more as I realised that this could be why the Kingdom of Heaven in poured out in greater measure on these kind of people. But then I though of the few churches in the West that do experience revival. (i am not solely in a blanket way about for example charasmatic or pentacostal churches) but the churches where God consistently heals, where is an extreme hunger for the presence of God and an outpouring follows. The Holy Spirit then showed me that verse "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"... it is the purity of heart and childlikeness (of believing for the impossible) of a hunger and crying out for the presence of God that preceeds these outpourings. There is something powerful in the heart cry "I want God more than anything else". Anything else - includes what we don't know (letting the Holy Spirit take away our limitations), it included what we don't understand and what we think we know (and as such what will fight to defend)- Knowledge. Are we so protective of what "We Know" that we won't let God act outside of it. When the disciples experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit it was outside their grid of understanding but they wanted God more than their knowledge. Interesting to note (I'm particulary interested to see what Jason will say on this) that in the "Olympics" of the New Testament, Knowledge didn't even get a "medal", indeed love, hope and faith were the medalists with love taking the gold - figuratively. So what do you say to the western church, whose bellies are fat with Knowledge yet who often resist the variety of ways God likes to speak. One of the key reasons Jesus came to demonstrate the freedom that He wanted to church to be ambassadors of. The freedom that comes with the Holy Fire of the Spirit of God burning up the chaff in your life. We are meant to not only experience that freedom ourselves but lead others to it - and I'm not talking simply about the sinners prayer - but an encounter - and on going encounters with Jesus, the Holy SPirit and the Father that transform us. So many of the people I have met within the church have the Holy Spirit but restrict and limit Him because they don't allow God access, they don't pursue Him for greater things. He is willing to pour out more and more freedom, all the characteristics about yourself that you don't like ... some of which behaviour modification or medication can't heal... Jesus healed everyone that He came in contact with -and called us to do GREATER THINGS... can any of us say we have reached that level of intimacy yet? That we do greater things than Jesus? What do theologians say this I would be interested to know..? If we haven't.. how many of us are praying into that promise...? I find it particularly interesting that when a well respected knowledgeable leader said Lord what must I do to have eternal life, Jesus gave him the example of the good samaratian as an example of how he should be. Ironically Jesus chose the marginalized, despised and not Jewish (chosen) to be uplifted as an example of love. we are so well versed in apologetics, in our 4 point plan and even our "ministry" that we miss the wounded all around us. Its so sad to see the non-christians showing more compassion and love than the Christians, while the CHristians stand proudly on their beliefs and use them as weapons to harm, control and justify. Check the book "The Tipping Point" where the author discusses a study of a group of young theologians who were asked to prepare a sermon on the Good Samaritan. As part of a psychological study the were told that they were they were late and to hurry to present it. The researcher prepared a hurt person on the street to see if the theologians would stop and help. only 10% of them did stop and help... some even stepped over the hurt person lying on the street to get there in time. In my observation there is nothing wrong with knowledge, as long as your brain is switched on during the process and you are not taking the status quo "christiany christianson" answers but testing the scriptures with the most wonderful teacher - the Holy Spirit. there are so many things we say as Christians that are just learned responses - things that we have heard and say and just repeat without thinking. At church the other day one of the older men told me in response to a issue I was having to just "lean on the Lord" but when I asked him to elaborate he couldn't describe in any real or practical terms what that looked like. Could we be so wrapped up in what we know that we miss out on relationship and worshipping God in all the fullness it could be. I have noticed that sometimes (not always) those who fall in love with theology end up worshipping the Bible instead of God. The importance of love escapes them and being "right" becomes more important. Could you be in relationship / friendship with me by following 4 steps and then reading about me? No you would have to experience time with me to know me and be known by me. SO why then are so many theologians and Christians threatened by what they have not experienced? Is it simply because they haven't personally experienced it or is it that they are afraid of what they don't understand? Looking forward to all your thoughts! peace~
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Post by Admin on Mar 19, 2010 18:31:00 GMT -5
Post by ram: ROME: The Vatican faced growing calls on Thursday to tackle the previously taboo subject of clerical celibacy as a way of preventing future sex abuse scandals involving priests. The head of the Catholic Church in Austria said the possible reasons behind sex abuse crises in Austria, Germany, Ireland and the Netherlands in recent weeks should be subjected to "gunflinching examination". A number of theologians and lay organizations have called for celibacy to be abolished because it allows no outlet for priests' sexual urges, but it is rare for a senior figure within the Church to call for a debate. In an article for an in-house Church magazine, Christoph Schoenborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, called for a debate on celibacy. He said it was time to examine "the issue of priest celibacy and the issue of personality development. It requires a great deal of honesty, both on the part of the Church and of society as a whole." Printed and distributed by NewpaperDirect | www.newspaperdirect.com, US/Can: 1.877.980.4040, Intern: 800.6364.6364 | Copyright and protected by applicable law. ~~ Paul offered a solution in I Cor. 7:8,9 For I would ALL men were even as I myself. But every man has his own gift from God, and one this gift, and another has that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they (disciples or apostles) abide even as I am. But if they can not control themselves, they should MARRY; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. If a person (disciple or apostle) CAN'T stand the heat so get out of the kitchen sometimes it can cause hinderance for those who are working full speed in the kitchen... let others who can stand the heat (called and chosen by God) keep on cooking! or doing what they called to do in the first place.
The person who can't stand the heat in the kitchen still can serve at the tables in the dinning room. There is NOTHING wrong with that at all leave the work for those who can stand the heat in the kitchen doing their parts which they were called to serve.
The overseers and the friends should do all the can to help, support those who are stepping down from serving in the kitchen/ministry to new positions of serving. There are many useful places of serving in the kingdom of God.Nathan, the advice Paul was giving in Chapter 7 (esp. vs. 8-9) was to the "church" at Corinth, NOT to itinerant preachers and "workers" only. He was addressing matters of immorality which the church had written to him about. Paul gave the advice in verses 8-9 to "the unmarried and widows" that it would be good if they could remain single, but if they could not contain themselves, then they should marry! Paul was never addressing celibate, itinerant preachers. It was the church in general. Paul pointed out there was nothing wrong with getting married. In verse 2 he specifically states that in order to avoid fornication, every man should have his own wife and every woman her own husband. Enforcing celibacy leads to sin. The sin of fornication. Paul's advice, is for the whole church, not just itinerant preachers. Paul was obviously gifted by God with the power of abstenance. He would have liked all to be like this because he saw this as a better means to serve God. However, he recognised that most others did not have this gift or power and his advice to ALL single persons and widows (including preachers) was that if they could not contain themselves then they should marry. That's Paul's take on "the Kitchen!"
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 30, 2010 22:47:15 GMT -5
I just received this letter, which I understand was written by a California worker or former worker. Does anyone know any more details or feedback on this? Does anyone want to share their thoughts? I feel this is right on!
Here's the letter:
A Great Need In the Kingdom
I understand like never before what the prophets of old meant when they said "the burden of the word of the Lord came unto me." The word of the Lord is a burden when it is important and those to whom the message is to be given may not want to receive it.
Every soul is precious to God. Jesus warned the apostles regarding "offending one of these little ones that believe in me." That message wasn't to the multitudes; it was to the apostles.
Is it right that either workers or saints treat any of our brethren, as though they do not belong in fellowship with the rest of us? Our own salvation is wrapped up in how we treat the least in the kingdom of God. How is it that those who have shown mercy, kindness, and forgiveness to those who are considered the least in the kingdom, have also been put out of fellowship? We are responsible for our own actions before God and cannot afford to rely on the example of some who have brought in laws based on personal opinion.
There are some workers who have deemed those who are divorced, and those who are divorced and remarried, as the least in the Kingdom of God. It is necessary to consider what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46. Do we really think we can escape the judgment of God when we have done despite (contemptuous treatment; insult) to any in the kingdom? Do we really think we can escape the judgment of God when our words and actions have imprisoned others?
Read Luke 22:14-21 regarding Jesus' last day before he was crucified. He knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him, but he in no way betrayed Judas... he loved him to the end. This is our example...to love the sheep until the end. Jesus did not judge, label, or punish Judas. He did not in any way limit or prevent Judas from partaking of the bread and wine. Jesus was the only pure one (and he said "I came not to judge), and he is the only one with the right to prevent another from partaking of the emblems--of himself.
Even if those who are divorced and remarried have sinned Jesus' example is that we ought not to forbid them from partaking fully in the fellowship meeting. How can we justify doing this when Jesus allowed, even encouraged, Judas to partake?
"Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? And to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? As for my flock. they eat that whim ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them: Behold, I, even I will judge between fat cattle and between lean cattle. Because ye have thrust with side and shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns. till he have scattered them abroad."
None can in any way afford to foul the pure water of the word of God, the pure water of Christ's example, but this practice has and does foul the pure water. -.and this is the water that the sheep of his pasture must drink in the places where this law has been instituted and upheld.
Judgment must begin at the house of God... it begins with the workers. Workers are very responsible for their words, their actions, their examples before the people of God. Please read all of Ezekiel 34 & Matthew 23. (Mt. 23 is a message. to the Pharisees, but it is also warning to workers. Jesus often warned about the leaven of the Pharisees.)
Please, pray earnestly concerning all of these things. We all need to be humbly praying that this practice will be put aside. No one can afford to delay in dealing justly and humbly with this issue. It requires expediency and all of your attention because your own soul's salvation and the souls of all those you preach to are wrapped up in this.
Workers have never had the right to do the work of the Holy Spirit in someone else's life. As workers, you are servants, not lords. One thing that the early Apostles struggled with was this matter of being the greatest, or being lords, over God's heritage.
When Jesus told Peter that "Satan hath desired to have you that he may sift you as wheat," then he told him that he had prayed for him that his faith would fail not, and he told him when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." I believe that this conversion was from being a "lord" to being a servant Peter was being a "lord" when he cut off the ear of the high priest's servant When Jesus said to him in John 21, "Peter, lovest thou me more than these? If you are a shepherd you will feed the Iambs and sheep ALL of the Iambs and sheep. Peter you aren't greater than these you are a servant...you serve." We have only one Lord. If any workers are "lords, they rob the one true Lord. Jesus also asked the apostles. 'Who is greater him that sitteth at meat or him that serveth? .The answer was him that sitteth at meat. Jesus said, "I am among you as one that serveth." If the son of God served, how can any worker take the place of a lord or attitude of a lord...that they are better than the flock they serve?
Possible Indications that some have crossed the line between being a servant and a lord:
-Forbidding- even the least in the kingdom to take in meeting or in the emblems-
-Teaching that when a worker leaves they are stepping down to a lower place
- Forbidding to marry, or to remarry
-Forbidding from moving somewhere, taking a certain job. a joining the military
-Telling someone they are condemned to hell
- Searching closets and homes that have been opened to the workers
- Rarely visiting those who are divorced, or looking on them in a condescending manner
-Feeling that workers are above reproach
- Forbidding those elders who feel it is wrong to keep the least from taking part in the
meeting from following the Holy Spirit
- Taking meetings out of the homes of those elders who are following the Holy Spirit
- Refusing to speak at a wedding (when workers are asked to speak, it is to offer spiritual
support, not judgment)
-Staying in the homes of the rich or well-known much more than in the homes of the poor or
lesser known persons
-Arranging special privileges repeatedly for the rich while overlooking others for privileges
(this is respect of persons)
Please diligently, prayerfully and humbly examine your own self in this very serious matter. Jesus in Revelations 2:2 commended the church at Ephesus for trying those who say they are apostles..- .we each need to compare our spirits alongside the spirit of Christ in all matters. If it doesn't line up with Christ in all things, then we are missing the mark. May each pray humbly and earnestly for a revelation of God's mind in this matter, not any one elses ideas. To those who think you can keep silence in the midth of this and other needs: Oppression thrives in silence.
I believe in miracles, and I am praying for workers specifically because every soul is precious in God's eyes. I believe that any who now are lords in their actions, words, and spirits can be converted even as Peter was converted. When you are converted, strengthen your brethren.
Remember what Jesus said, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Those are powerful words, and it is foolish to ignore them.
We are thankful for the shepherds who are true shepherds.
Shepherds care for the sheep, ALL of the sheep.
Shepherds bind up the wounds of those who are bruised and broken. They don't beat them. Shepherds search for the lost, all the lost, not a select few.
Shepherds love the sheep and would give their very life for any and all of the sheep, not a select
RE: Divorce and Scripture
This letter has been in the making for about two years. This study was the result of learning about a man who was divorced and reman1ed being told that he couldn't even go to meeting. A short time later this led him to commit suicide. In the case of the children of Israel bringing the Ark of the Covenant home, and when Uzzah reached out his hand and touched the ark and was stricken dead. Yes, it was God that smote him, but when there is a death under circumstances like these, it is appropriate, to go back and examine the scripture. Were the restrictions that were put upon hi~ too heavy to bear? I know assuredly, if I were in his ~ I have no doubt that the restrictions would be too much to bear. From the outset I put a great deal of thought and prayer into this subject, and the writing of this letter. My earnest prayer and desire was to learn what God's mind is regarding divorce and remarriage. I feel a bit like Abraham when he came before the Lord to intercede on the behalf of Lot and any righteous in groom and Gomorrah. Abraham felt it important to intercede, and at the same time he approached the Lord in all humility. I want to convey my desire to intercede, but also that you would know that it is with all humility.
It is often preached in the gospel meetings that the way of God is the same everywhere, when in fact, it is not. This has been disconcerting to many faithful saints and faithful elders and to a number of workers as well. Our young people are especially confused by the inconsistencies. Our young people are traveling a great deal more, and are very much aware that in some places it is okay to be divorced and remarried and take part in meetings and in some places it is not okay. Even in the West, there are some that are divorced and remarried and are being allowed to take part while other members of the same extended family are not allowed to do so. This shows "respect of persons", which is something that Jesus and Paul advised against. The very fact that there isn't agreement brings to light that something isn't right about this. In light of this, we need to delve into the scripture and make a real earnest study of this and pray and seek out the mind of God in this matter. This issue has become a heavy burden, not just on those who are divorced, but also upon those who meet with them, on our young people and the workers who are troubled by such a law.
Do we change things of this? Yes, but only if it is scripturally sound. I have endeavored through prayer and reading to seek only the mind of God in this matter, not mine own, nor some man's idea-only God's. I have done a lot of searching, and what I have learned that God hates a man "putting away" his wife, and not supporting her. That is not divorce, but separation without divorce. The reason God would hate that so much is that a wife was to be supported by her husband even if they were separated. But because of the hardness of the husband's heart, he dealt treacherously with her, and did not support her. God through Moses let it be known that that was not what he wanted. So God commanded the steps that a man needed to take to divorce his wife: Deuteronomy 24: 1-3. 1. Let him write a bill of divorcement; 2. Put it in her hand, 3. Send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. That is very clear, isn't it?
A marriage can be dissolved by divorce, and God does recognize this fact. God Himself put away Israel and gave her a bill of divorce. God said in Jeremiah 3 :8, And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and give her a bill of divorce..."
Jesus said a "put away" woman commits adultery when she marries. So perhaps it is vitally important that we understand just what was meant by "put away" .
If a husband and wife get into a fight and the woman screams: "Get out! I hate you! I don't EVER want to see you again!" are they divorced? If he leaves, as she commanded, has she divorced him? The answer really is obvious, isn't it? This sort of thing happens with couples all the time. Usually, after they cool down they reconcile. If this .putting away were the same as divorce, they would be divorced. So, it apparent that a "sent away" spouse who did not receive a "bill of divorcement" is not divorced -not according to Moses and not according to the law of our land.
God in his mercy gave a three part procedure for divorce: 1) write a bill of divorcement" ; 2) "put it into her hand"; and 3) "send her out of the house", Deuteronomy 24: 1. The following verse says: "And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife." Without the bill of divorcement there was no divorce -at least not according to God' s definition. Actually, when you look carefully at the wording of Deut 24: 1, 2 and Mark 10:3-5 it becomes evident that the "bill of divorcement" was a command -meaning it was an essential part of the divorce procedure. And we know that God said, "Let not man" put asunder. Man cannot end a marriage his way {which is the putting awav). but he can do it God's way. Man's way results in "treachery" (MaI..2: 14-16) and adultery (Matt. 19:9.). According to Moses the "bill of divorcement allowed the woman to "go be another man's wife." Without.it she.could not-do so -.it would be adultery. Why; because they. would still be married.
Even in our society, it is very difficult for a woman to support herself and children, most often they end up living in poverty. Additionally .trying to raise children under those circumstances in the way of God, is not like really raising them in the truth because many workers will not even visit a family with a single mother or a single father at the head of the house. So the children grow up with scarcely knowing what it is like having workers in the home. Some children from a certain family, who had expressed a desire to make their choice and the older brother in the field was contacted regarding this. He refused to come and visit those children. Those children's souls were not important to him because he apparently despised their divorced mother. Is this the spirit Christ manifested? (John 8 would tell us otherwise.)
Malachi 2-makes-it very clear that God hates.the teachery of a husband who her away (putting-away} and not -- supporting her. In reality the law of not permitting those who are divorced to re-marry in essence has brought the treachery, that God hates, back into the picture. Treachery, not only because of not having the emoiionai, physical. and monetary support and help of a husband, but also the treachery of very often not having the spiritual support and emotional support of many of-the Workers who will scarcely acknowledge those who are divorced. That treachery is also carried out by many of the saints who seldom, if ever, invite divorced individuals to their homes, and feel justified in so doing because of the obvious attitude of many of the workers towards those who are divorced. Spiritually, where does this leave those who have dealt treacherously against those who are divorced and those who are divorced and remarried? Jesus said to the lawyers in Luke 11:46 "Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! For ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers." This law is a grievous burden upon the kingdom. Now is the time for this grievous burden to be lifted! A very wise and godly older sister made this statement. "You can not lay down laws for God's people, those who are willing will become self-righteous, and those who aren't willing will become rebellious."
So what about the fact that the Bible says in Matthew 5:32 that whosoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery? A closer look at the Greek text shows that a literal translation in that verse would be "whosoever shall marry her that is put away commits adultery." The Greek word apoluo, Strong's number 630, is used here and for some reason was translated "divorced" instead of "put away." The King James translators were not consistent in translating apoluo "put away" or "send away' or "sent away" as they did more than 25 times in other verses. In fact, apoluo appears in the Greek Textus Receptus (form which the King James Version was translated) more than 65 times but was translated "divorce" only once, and that was in Matthew 5:32. for example, in the American Standard Version (1901). Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (1893), and-The Interlinear Greek-English New translated by Jay P. Green. The margin note in The Geneva Bible translated from the Textus Receptus in 1560 (about 50 years before the KJY} concerning the term away said. "that is. was not lawfully divorced."
Jesus did not say whosoever shall marry her that has been given a bill of divorce (bib/ion, 975 and apostasion 647) commits adultery, but rather whosoever shall marry her that has been put away (apoluo, 630) commits adultery (Mt. 5:32; 19:9; Lk. 16:18). Likewise, did not say whosoever shall give a bill of divorce (bib/ion. 975 and apostosion, 647) to his wife causes her to commit adultery but rather whosoever shall put away (apolllO, 630) his wife (except for fornication) causes her to commit adultery (Mt. 5:32). And Jesus did not say whosoever shall give his wife a bill of divoree (biblion, 975 and apostasion, 647) and marry another commits adultery ~ but rather whosoever shall put away (apoirIo, 630) his wife (except for fornication) and shall marry another commits aduItery (Mt.19:9; Lk. 16: 18). And Jesus did not say if a woman shall give her husband a bill of divorce (bib/ion, 975 and apo8tQSion, 647) and be married to another she commits adultery, but lather if a woman shall put away (apoluo~630) her husband and be married to another she commits adultery (Mk. 10:12).
One more thought: Last night I dreamed a dream and when I awoke it was very vivid and 1 believe that God gave me this dream as a parable to share with you. In my dream I was at a dinner with a number of people and workers in a large rambling home. There were several tables in different rooms with people eating dinner. At my table was an elderly brother worker in his 80's (he has long labored oversees), after dinner he stood up and said, "I sat too long." He was in pain and weak and he soon collapsed to the floor. I ran to him, and held his head and shoulders up. I needed help carrying him to his room. One by one some of the brothers came forward and looked but made an excuse about not carrying him and backed away. After a long time when no one would come to help me carry him, I picked him up and carried him by myself down a long hall into another part of the house through another dining room and kitchen and finally reached his bedroom and laid him down. When I awoke this morning, I was so amazed that no one was willing to help me carry the burden of this weak brother.; Then I realized it was a parable. The question is: Will you be willing to help lift the burden of your weaker brethren, or will you make some excuse and just back away after seeing the burden and the need at hand?
This letter has gotten long. I am sending it anonymously because I want the readers to keep their focus on the subject, not the writer. The subject is important, the writer is not. Please feel :free to make additional copies as needed.
Copies to:
Workers
It is tedious to list all the workers that this has been sent to. I have opted not to do so.
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Post by Admin on Apr 8, 2010 17:16:50 GMT -5
I would have to agree with you. I don't see a thing wrong with advertising. Do you really think Paul would have made Christianity as big as it became by not advertising. He was a religious entrepreneur and a very successful one too. Think about this one snow. Jesus was the biggest advertiser of them all. He set up a mission of 70 disciples who went out in pairs to tell people at all the towns that Christ was coming. That's very intense advertising! He even gave them powers so that they would attract even more attention to their announcement! That beats blogs, bulletin boards and classified ads by a long shot. Nice one clearday Richard's blog was removed because it made some uncomfortable. Pray that will change in time, and meanwhile please support a worker like Richard in his efforts to follow his entrepreneurial Lord and Savior.
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Post by Admin on Apr 8, 2010 21:54:42 GMT -5
Write him yourself or ask someone you trust who has heard from him. Actually, I don't care enough to bother. I do care about ethics and moral processes; but that is as far as my involvement goes. I admit to being vaguely amused by all the hair-pulling and shirt-tearing lamentation. Haven't people realised yet that the Fellowship is a sinking ship? It's going to be gone in 40, or 50 years precisely because of this fear of technology and inability to promote and declare the gospel and God's glory (among other things). Perhaps it is God's favour withdrawn. Anybody who invests themselves in the Fellowship, from a business stand-point, is going down a track that terminates in failure. The Fellowship has not only lost entire families in recent years, but also is not sustaining itself from within. "Natural growth" is where your church continues because you baptise your kids, basically. We aren't even doing that. We might baptise one kid out of every four born, if we're lucky, two. If outsiders come in to profess, it is usually hailed as a miracle. And so it is. Statistically, if you manage to find the meetings you're lucky, and if you stay and listen to what is sometimes very poor communication for a year of Sundays, if you accept the convoluted doctrine-that-is-not-doctrine, and if you finally profess, the chances of it happening are so overwhelmingly remote, that it must surely be a miracle if it happens at all! Few people "get" that it is the result of putting so many hurdles in front of seeking souls, that to get to the end of the track requires superhuman persistence. For me, the greatest pull-back is the lack of intellectual freedom, and the criticism that happens whenever one uses their brain. I have always loved the Scriptures and God, and always wondered why people have reacted poorly to my mentioning research on particular issues. Now I know. Probably the same forces that may have been involved in this blog going down. I do not seriously doubt that this was the reason (although I do give Clearday a hard time sometimes). I hate the enforced idleness. I would dearly love to start a Bible study group, or go from door-to-door sharing the gospel, or write promotional brochures and hand them out, or start a website or magazine for the Friends. I would love to do anything like that because I love the Gospel. But if I tried any of these, I would be shunned (imagine arriving to the meetings with a stack of magazines - they would be burned!). If I asked the Workers, they would reject all proposals in favour of the status quo (which is a colossal failure that is getting worse and worse). I wonder how many people are in my circumstances. Passionate, energetic, young, and deeply moved to share the Good News, but are left on their keisters for all that energy to fade away or be channelled elsewhere. There's no energy for the gospel - anywhere. It's not like it was 30 odd years ago when I was a boy. People believed it back then - that it was actually true - and were firery, passionate. Some of those old Workers boomed their convictions to the stars. People were eager to defend their faith, promote their faith. It's gone. The passion has gone, and invariably, the faith will follow. Two in one day. Almost a miracle in itself ;D Heartfelt. Thanks Jason.
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Post by mod1 on Apr 18, 2010 20:23:06 GMT -5
Nominated by Sharonw and Someguy... thanks Clearday! I used to see it that way lin, and had a hands off "live and let live" attitude like yourself. It's not a bad place to be in, and it certainly allows you to protect yourself from negativity. However, I see it entirely differently today. Negativity is often a cry for help and presents itself as an opportunity to practice the second greatest commandment. An an analogy, what good could your medical practitioner or your car mechanic do if you walked in all positive and said "hey, everything's just great!" when you are in severe pain or your car won't start? That wouldn't work too well would it? Or, if you went into your car mechanic and told about your car troubles, would you want him to say "go away, I hate negativity."? Encountering negativity is an opportunity because it indicates a need within our fellow man. Over the years, I have seen a lot of negativity on these boards and discussion groups get unwound because it gave people a chance to define what bothered them, get ideas from others and figure out how to overcome it all. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people have moved on to a happier and higher plane than where they were before engaging with others who have encountered similar challenges. The fellowship has a strong tendency to suppress negativity rather than work with it to help heal its members. When negativity is suppressed, whatever is bothering that person never goes away, it only gets worse. Encouraging negativity to be expressed is the first step to healing.
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Post by mod1 on Apr 27, 2010 21:02:12 GMT -5
Nominated by SharonW: I think the issue of fear is relevant in a particular limited context: for those who have already decided to leave, whether they know it or not. Pity those who hang on through fear of one sort or another, neither in or out of the f&w. The verse about love casting out fear really applies here. One has to have a certain love for this fellowship to dissipate the various fears and doubts that may arise. It has taken time for me to understand the situation of those who were raised in the fellowship and at some point don't feel a part of it. There can be all kinds of reasons why this would happen. I think we have to allow kids to grow up however they are going to grow up, and recognize that some will not want to be part of this. One of the major problems may be a lack of identification at a social level with the lifestyle and the people. Or, just identity issues which create resistance or friction for the young person. I can see how a young person can begin to think they are not where they really belong when they're among the friends. And perhaps, then, they really do need to be somewhere else. Where we get into trouble is thinking that our brand of Christianity has all the answers for every situation and every person. So as parents and workers we can become God's micro-managers. A sure way to kill the Spirit. Beyond a certain age, parents should just worry about managing their relationship with their kids, and let all the other stuff go. But I suppose that's easier said than done.
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Post by Admin on Apr 30, 2010 19:10:36 GMT -5
Jason, would you call these things works?1. sober, 2. grave, temperate, 3. sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 4. behaviour as becometh holiness, 5. not false accusers, 6. not given to much wine, 7. teachers of good things; 8. love their husbands, 9. love their children, 10. discreet, 11. chaste, 12. keepers at home, 13. good, 14. obedient to their own husbands 15. sober minded. 16. pattern of good works: 17. in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 18. Sound speech 19. denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, 20. live soberly, righteously, and godly 21. women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 22. be in subjection to your own husbands 23. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 24. meek and quiet spirit Yes, Bert, these are works. The unfortunate by-product of people poorly catechised in the doctrine of sola gratias (by grace alone) is that some people think that works are optional or that holy living is not something we must labour for, strive toward, and press into with all our soul, strength, mind, and spirit. Such a perspective is not the opinion of Christ (" strive to enter in at the straight gate"; " press into the kingdom of heaven"); this is not the view of any of the Apostles; and it is not the view of the Reformers. Anybody who has dwelt a page in Paul, or Peter, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, or even Wycliffe will attest to that. Thus, the "works-less" Christian is in a sub-Reformed, sub-biblical, sub-Christian (I would say, anti-Christian) position. We are not called to be barren, but to bring forth " much fruit". Yea, this is what Christ himself said was God's will for our lives. Thus, taking stock of our fruits, as per this list, is a good way to determine whether God is at work in our lives. Do we strive to be sobre? Do we strive toward discretion, love, obedience, and humility before the Most High God? Are we diligent and eager to cultivate these things, mindful of our deficiencies and calling upon God to " make me whole! help me to grow to the stature of Christ!" If such fruits are not in us, then assuredly, neither is the truth of Christ. Thanks Jason. The other "unfortunate by-product of people poorly catechised in the doctrine of sola gratias (by grace alone) is that some people think that" works on their own, apart from God's grace, will get them across the salvation line, if they somehow try hard enough in this life. Which of course glorifies in some way the one making the effort. The five solas: Sola scriptura is the teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all Sola fide is the teaching that justification (interpreted in Protestant theology as, "being declared right by God", and assumed to mean exactly "salvation"), is received by faith only, without any mixture of or need for good works, though in classical Protestant theology, saving faith is always evidenced, but not determined, by good works. Sola gratia is the teaching that salvation comes by God's grace or "unmerited favor" only — not as something merited by the sinner. Solus Christus is the teaching that Christ is the only mediator between God and man, and that there is salvation through no other. Soli Deo gloria is the teaching that all glory is to be due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through His will and action.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 8, 2010 23:34:00 GMT -5
It is good to read here of people who put their trust and faith in Jesus Christ as the "founder" of their salvation, and also recognize and admit that their "fellowship" group was started whenever, 100 years ago in the case of the f&w church with William Irvine as one of the "founders" of that fellowship. It is good to make that distinction. I think it is sad when people equate their "fellowship' group to their salvation and "deify" it, and find it necassary to defend it at all cost, even to the point of denying it's founding members as being mere human beings. It seems there is a greater awareness of this difference happening in the f&w church. An example of the danger of believing that the "fellowship group" is the true way is a dear friend of mine- ex-worker who says that" if it is proved to me that "this way" was started by a man I will stop believing in God" SAD- equating a fellowship group to God- no wonder one would become an atheist when "the group" disappoints and lets you down, which ALL do Alvin. [/b] [/quote] While I was not so adamant and vocal about it, I would have to admit that it wasn't so long ago that I held a similar viewpoint.
The reason was in being taught from a child to put an unhealthy trust in all that the workers said without doing a "reality check". When I finally came to the realization that this had led me into a belief that simply wasn't true, the effect was somewhat unhinging.
For a time I suspected everything I heard, and had heard, wondering if there was anything of any substance to any of it. Instead of hastily making a decision to leave it all behind as some do, I decided to take a "wait and see" approach and let patience do its perfect work. That approach has worked the best for me resulting in a sort of transformation invisible to most around me, but quite profound within.
I know that as I express this, that many folks would wonder how a person, well educated in such an enlightened age, could ever hold such a belief. I sometimes wonder myself!
What is also a bit unsettling is that many, if not most, who professed later in life, not being B & R, saw this clearly from the get-go. My thoughts on this matter is that each individual on the path to a saved eternity has specific battles to fight. There is little benefit to having been B & R as I once assumed.
Complacency in living, seeing things only through my innate 2 x 2 glasses doesn't give me a true and complete picture. There's much more to it than that. I'm glad I submitted to patience and glad for the chance to discuss with others on this forum, things that would be impossible to divulge to local friends and workers for fear of reprisal. [/quote]
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Post by mod4 on Jun 9, 2010 23:36:08 GMT -5
It's 'post of the century' and it's by Joe Kerr in 1956.
Letter #1 by Joe Kerr.
c/o Norman Kerr 26 Raleigh Road Mobray, Cape South Africa January 28, 1956 Dear ___:
Many thanks for the newspaper* that you sent. How did that man get hold of all that information? He is not altogether accurate in some things but has a lot that is. It is almost criminal all that they are doing & then denying that their origin is deceitful. He has nothing right about South Africa. If you ever write to him, tell him that William Irvine was never working in South Africa--he only passed through, so I did not share in any divisions, -- and that I cut my association with them 40 years ago. He states that I was the instigator of "The Living Witness" doctrine, and that I scooped up what was of William Irvine's kingdom in South Africa. What they preach today about the "Living Witness" was not what I preached. I then taught the importance of preaching as follows:
1. That Christ said go ye therefore, and teach all nations -- Matthew 28-19. 2. That it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them -- 1 Cor. 1-21. 3. That God hath in due times manifested His Word through preaching -- Titus 1-3. 4. That people could not hear without a preacher -- Romans 10-14. 5. That it is woe unto me if I preach not the Gospel. -- 1 Corinthian 9-16. 6. That they went everywhere preaching the Word -- Acts 8-4. 7. That Philip went down to Samaria and preached Christ --Acts 8-5. I gave instances such as that found in Acts 8-35, how the Lord sent Philip to preach to the eunuch but while I emphasized the need of a preacher, it did not mean that the preacher had to be one of us. The idea that the preacher had to be William Irvine or one of his disciples was added to their doctrine after I had delivered my part.
The mistake I made in my ignorance was that I failed to take into account the sovereignty of God, -- God who could speak from heaven and save one, as He saved Paul, Acts 9. He could save Timothy through reading of the Scriptures, 2 Timothy 3-15. I forgot that the greatest preacher that the Lord had was the firmament of heaven, and that there was no place in the universe where the voice of that preacher cannot be heard, Psalms 19-1 to 4. That is the preacher to whom Paul was referring in Romans 10-14 when he asked, "How could they hear without a preacher?" For he immediately quotes from that Psalm; Romans 10-18.
When I saw the mistake I made, I tried to correct it, but it was too late! It was something new for people who had not been in the habit of thinking for themselves, and so off they set with it to the ends of the earth! Then it grew until they had it that the preacher had to be one testimony, and one who had either professed through William Irvine, or one of his direct descent.
I could not have preached that, for I believe I was saved before I met the "Testimony" and I know that William Irvine had professed through the Rev. John McNeil. So that theory could no more hold water than the one that says the Pope was a direct descendent of Peter.
In the book, Broadbent's "Pilgrim Church," a book that is well worth reading, we learn that there have been people all down through the ages who have sought to walk as near to the truth of Scripture as they could. They were given different names and were badly persecuted. I just had another letter from one of the deceived the A.M., asking for information regarding the truth. I met this man 7 years ago and told him a few things, which are just now beginning to filter into his mind. Now lots of love in Christ to you and your wife,
Your brother in Christ,
J. Kerr
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 24, 2010 22:23:34 GMT -5
I was brought up to believe that we were an anarchistic group. No headquarters, no rulers, no organization, no name, no rules, convention just happened, etc. Of course deep down you intuitively know that it must be an organized system but you prefer to swallow the koolaid. You convince yourself for as long as possible that "this way" is different from all other human activities. It has some mystical quality about it, it started back in Galilee and these are the things which make it special.
As time goes on, you become aware, bit by bit, that it's a highly organized group with a highly developed set of informal rules, it can be a stifling system, even oppressive in some instances. Then you realize that it is just another religious group, perhaps different in detail from other groups, but generally much the same.
Once you get past the initial sense of disappointment, feeling of betrayal in some cases, and see it for what it is, then it's much easier to accept and navigate without losing your own personal sense of integrity. [/size]
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Post by mod4 on Jul 2, 2010 17:30:10 GMT -5
Thank you Nathan9. Very interesting. If I were to believe in the bible I would have to say this. No, William Irvine is not the father of Jesus. God is. and yes, Jesus was with God when the world was created. And God gave Jesus as a sacrifice for all the world to cover their sins which are infinite until they die. But if they accept Jesus as the one who can save them and bridge the gap between them and God until the day they die, they will be able to cross over. and that gap is there as long as they are on this earth so they continually need Jesus in their life. So now we have the discussion of how do we accept Jesus and show that we are accepting him and others can see that? That is what William Irvine is the founder of. He is the founder of a way for people to worship God and Jesus and to show others that they have this working in their lives. Why is that such a bad thing to reveal? Then it seems he wanted to do other things that were not in his beginning plan and others who were with him in the beginning did not want to follow the new ideas that he had. Why is that such a bad thing to reveal? No William Irvine is not the father of Jesus. But he is the father of a group of people who wanted to earnestly and honestly follow the teachings of the bible. Why is that such a bad thing to reveal?
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Post by mod4 on Jul 10, 2010 4:27:16 GMT -5
What would life be like in a non-exclusive fellowship? I can provide a few answers because my wife and I are trying it. - We can worship with our kids in their church when we visit them. - We can work with other Christians in other churches in helping the homeless or other programs. As long as those programs are ecumenical in nature, and there are many such. - We can enjoy other expressions of worship and celebration in music and literature. Even if it's not "our" preferred mode of doing things, at worst it keeps life interesting at best we discover the Spirit in new areas. - We can discuss everything from societal issues to our own fellowship problems in mutual love and kindness and benefit from the different perspectives of Christians in other denominations. They benefit from our experience and we benefit from theirs. - We can learn, read and discuss new ideas without inhibition. Now, if the entire fellowship was less exclusive: - People from other denominations could freely attend our missions, conventions and Sunday morning meetings on a visitor basis. - There'd be a greater benefit to society because the fellowship does offer a unique and beneficial perspective to a wide range of problems and issues. - And the fellowship would benefit also from the perspective of others. - Within the fellowship the important things would be made stronger, and the superfluous things would be burned away. Will it happen? Often as the critical mass in a church become more tolerant and permissive, the more conservative factions feel threatened and break away. This is what has happened in the Dutch Reformed church and also the Mennonites.
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Post by mod4 on Jul 22, 2010 22:53:57 GMT -5
This is about teaching innocent, ignorant young children proper behaviour to BE SURE they're never putting themself into the arms of a perpetrator since it is hard for said children to know who those are!
Yes, adults should be accountable, but as long as there are groups of people anywhere, there is the chance one of the perpetrators who manipulate things to their own satisfaction will be within that group of people. The complaint has been the parents are NOT teaching their children how to protect themselves and until children get old enough to KNOW HOW TO DO SO, they're going to have to have the "hands off" taught, don't you think?
Our society has become quite loose with their physical expressions of love and to some extent that IS THE PROBLEM when it comes to children being able to protect themselves. Children need to know being caught alone by someone they "think" is okay, is the thing they must learn to question!
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Post by mod4 on Jul 30, 2010 15:04:08 GMT -5
Ex-Worker Al's feelings on leaving the Work:It wouldn't be easy to give up a life ambition... one would feel like a failure. It wouldn't make any difference what the reason was... a person would feel like a failure. The lack of communication to the friends of a reason... may leave that feeling of betrayal. The way I have come to understand the situation is that our love for them shouldn't end at the door so to say... they are still a brother, given much of their life, their love to all. Those still in the work have each other... the one that has left... doesn't have anyone unless they have an understanding friend and or family. There are lots of interesting and important discussion points around this topic, but I'm just going to reply briefly, citing my own experience in leaving the work after 18 years. I became aware immediately on entering the work how much friends looked up to me - I remember some coming to me right there at Gilroy convention, where I had arrived after working part of the week, then had spoken once. And they were asking me for advice, as if I knew anything . . . Yes, it pleased me, but also made me so aware that I knew nothing. The flip side of this being looked up to is that I felt I was letting people down when I left the work - both family and friends. It's not that anyone specifically said "We want you to stay in the work." But I had a lot of friends among the workers and in my various fields, and many had expressed appreciation to me for having been in the work, and so . . . But I was treated with nothing but kindness by my fellow California workers when I left. A few encouraged me to reconsider or not be hasty, but they were very accepting when I just told them there was more to the story than they really knew about. I was also treated very kindly by the friends. Some expressed disappointment, but were still supportive. Only one man basically told me that I should be back in the work "fulfilling my mission." And, having known him, it didn't really surprise me to hear that from him. I didn't worry about it. But, it is a huge change! Besides the issue of trying to make a living (and I didn't have an education or a skill), it was a complete change of identity. Though friends are supportive, it is an entirely new relationship with everyone - friends and family. I left entirely because of my own struggle - it had nothing to do with an interest in a particular woman. But I was engaged within a few months - I had known her (my wife now of course!) for 15 years. I state this because some assumed I left for her sake. It caught her entirely by surprise too. But what I want to mention here is that it felt extremely strange to say "I have a girlfriend/fiancee." A worker spends his/her life trying to deny those desires, now to just talk about it naturally felt very strange. This is just an example of the switch in every part of a person's identity/relationships. I told this to a professing lady at a convention a couple of years ago. I had known her and her husband for years, they are good friends, and he had just left her. It seemed to me it must bear some relation to a person's position in a divorce or separation. This lady came up to me the next day, and told me that had meant so much to her. Leaving the work probably has a lot of commonality with the "mid-life crisis" too. I don't think there is a way it can be made "easy," but the support of friends - and I don't mean just professing people - is important, as it is in any big change, in anyone's life.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 11, 2010 12:35:34 GMT -5
Requested by email as a post of the week. I was out of town so was a bit slow on responding to the email....: Interesting discussion ts. Yes, it's a new thought to me that giving and forgiving both involve letting go. Letting go is a fundamental Christian idea which releases us from the burdens of our life.
The widow may have been the happiest person on earth that day when she was able to let it all go, unlike the rich people who would have given only a fraction of what they had even though it would have been multiples of what she had given.
There is a lot of empowerment in Christian ideas, and the idea of letting go is certainly one of them. When we let go of our self-focus and instead cultivate an attitude of serving, good things happen on a number of levels. Not that it's a good thing to be someone's doormat, but when we focus on serving real needs, things open up. My own experience in business was that there was a time when I gave up striving to make a lot of money and instead focused just on providing quality services and good value to clients. The result? Business got better in every way and I really didn't expect that. The same phenomena will occur in employment, in personal relationships and in relationship with God but one really has to let go of selfish striving.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 26, 2010 12:05:21 GMT -5
I appreciated Now I Know registering on the TMB to share the following, and thought I would put it here on the post of the week for easy referral. As covered in the “ex worker in the news” post, an ex-worker living in the Boston area was arrested and arraigned in court yesterday for allegedly sexually assaulting a 14-year old boy. I was sexually abused by this same man when I was 12 years old and he was one of the workers in our field in 1972. This worker had spent the day fishing with my younger brother and me and slept with us in the same large bed in a trailer outside our home that night. I awoke to him groping me and pressing himself against me. I was paralyzed with unimaginable fear and pretended to not wake up. After an interminably long time he finished what he was doing and left me alone. After not sleeping the rest of the night, I told my older brother the next morning what had happened and he advised me not to tell my parents, with which I complied. I harbor no hard feelings toward him as he was only 15 and did the best he knew how. Unfortunately, it is often the advice of younger siblings or friends out of fear and naivety. As a result, I kept this secret for 28 years until I was 40.
I was shopping one day where we live and stopped to watch a TV news program. A young man my age (40) was telling how he had been molested repeatedly by a Catholic priest when he was 12 years old. The awful memories came flooding back and I became very emotional and rushed home to talk to my wife. It was time for me to finally talk about this with her and get help for the emotional and spiritual damage that I suffered over the years. There have been several challenges that I faced throughout the years as a result of this terrible experience. I nearly lost out of Truth then but was able to come to terms with what had happened and to some extent why it happened (I ultimately left meetings for other reasons).
I also spoke to my parents who were very pained that I did not tell them at the time but understood the circumstances of why I did not. They tried to find out what had happened to this worker and whether others were affected by his actions. They found our that he had been arrested for another offense a few years later but the victim’s family chose not to press charges. I know that he was asked to leave the work and married an ex-worker from England or Ireland.
An important step in my recovery came about a year and a half ago occurred when my older brother made an unexpected trip to our area to visit a customer of his business. He opened up to me about how he had wondered over the years how I had handled this awful experience. He of course felt very guilty that he had advised me not to speak to our parents. I told him that he did not know what to do and that he had done the best he knew how. I also told him that I had in fact sought out help and had come to terms with it over a period of several years. He proceeded to tell me something that allowed me to settle a very important part of this experience in my heart. He said that this person spoke in convention about finally feeling God’s forgiveness for something very serious. My brother spoke to him after that meeting and told him that he understood what he was speaking about and felt for him. I told my brother to tell him when it was appropriate that I have also forgiven him for what he did. I can honestly say now that forgiveness is truly more for the forgiver than for the forgiven and am thankful to God for finding peace.
Unfortunately, there was an aspect of this experience that I had not come to terms with yet. Over the years I wondered how often this might have happened to others and for those who have come forward, how these situations have been handled. My hope was that it was done in an open, honest and timely manner. Each time I heard of another case, it opened old wounds and took time to re-heal. To my dismay, I found out that older overseers had done more to restore offenders in the faith than was done to help victims who suffered for life as a result of these horrible crimes. One worker actually told me the he didn’t think as little as 10 years ago that he wouldn’t have known that he should report a case of child sexual abuse to the police or other authorities. UNBELIEVABLE!!!! I found out that there is one sister worker who has knowledge of 75 cases of sexual abuse (adult and child) by friends and workers. Despite the awful failings of overseers in the past, I am encouraged by the progress that is being made by leadership in the eastern US. As a result of the eastern overseer meeting at Seneca, IL as well as other overseer meetings and consultation with an outside consultants/mediator I believe there has been a real change in the attitude of the leadership. There are also new policies and recommendations being put in place to handling future cases correctly in terms of reporting to authorities and ensuring that victims get help. Nevertheless, much more needs to be done.
I assure all who are reading this post, it is in the leaderships best interest to see that ALL WORKERS’ attitudes are changed, that the past failings as well as new steps are communicated across the fold and that known victims receive a heartfelt apology from current overseers and that any who come forward and need counseling and other help receive that and that it is paid for. I am sure that all the friends who put their unquestionable faith in the ministry and provide generous financial support will understand this need and come through for the good of the Kingdom! I WOULD LOVE TO NAME NAMES OF OVERSEERS WHO STILL DON’T GET IT BUT I ASSURE YOU THAT WILL NOT BE THE CASE FOR LONG - BUFORD T. JUSTICE IS IN HOT PURSUIT!!! THE EASTERN OVERSEER SHOULD DO THE HONORABLE THING AND FALL ON HIS SWORD AND LET THE NEXT GENERATION OF LEADERS CLEAN UP THIS SCOURGE. FOR ANY WHO DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT A SCOURGE THIS IS, LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT OFFENDING HIS LITTLE ONES:
Luke 17
1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! 2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
A HEARTY AMEN!!!
As far as my reaction yesterday to the new of this man’s arrest I have had a range of intense emotions. I had finally dealt with this in my life and had forgiven him in my heart but I am very grateful for the chance to see justice perhaps finally come to him. On the other hand, I feel awful for his wife who must be experiencing incredible anger, grief, embarrassment, etc. I have been told that she is a very sweet and nice person. I also wish I could reach out to the new victim's family to let them know that their son will be OK if they get him help right away and provide love and support as he deals with this extremely difficult and confusing ordeal. While I know that it is not my fault, I wish I would have done more to prevent this from happening again. I have provided my story to the lead investigator and will do all that is asked of me to see that justice prevails. [/size]
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Post by Admin on Aug 29, 2010 8:41:32 GMT -5
I agree with you ts, there are unique characteristics of the 2x2 ministry system which calls for unique solutions. Safe work practices for teachers, coaches and youth ministers is a good start but not enough. There are at least two unique characteristics of the 2x2 ministry which need to be addressed to make children safer: 1. The practice of staying only in the homes of the members. While there may well be some good aspects to this, it also means that workers with pedophile tendencies are presented with a steady stream of opportunities to offend. Minimizing opportunities means minimizing offenses. 2. The unusual degree of exaltation given to the workers by many of the friends. In some cases, it borders on idolatry. Under these circumstances, parents who view workers automatically as paragons of virtue will drop their vigilance for their children, making them vulnerable. Parental vigilance is absolutely critical for the protection of children from these offenses. The solutions? 1. The practice of workers moving around from house to house and staying in homes needs to be reviewed. If the "homeless" ministry remains a "must keep" characteristic of the fellowship, other solutions should be examined. For instance, in most fields there are homes of "empty nester" couples who have plenty of room now that the kids are gone. Workers should consider setting up there for a season at a time and do their work from that base. There is absolutely no need to pack bags every 3 or 4 days to move and get set up again: it's very inefficient and they can accomplish with a meal and some table time with friends what they accomplish while staying at the homes. 2. Workers need to present themselves as mere mortals to the friends. They should be themselves, warts and all, instead of adopting the appearance of the worker mold. Their ability to help people will actually go up, not down.....and at the same time people will not idolize them to the degree that their children are made vulnerable and sent to the basement to "wrestle" with "uncle xxxxx". The "worker mold" fools a lot of people but sets the stage for dysfunctional relationships between pastor and parishioner.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 2, 2010 8:58:08 GMT -5
From clearday: Exactly what I have been saying since day one (on CSA) here. While there has been some application of today's standards to behaviours 30 or 40 years ago, the real concern is much more recent than that.
The cultural revolution of the 1960s set the stage for a spate of litigation on this issue by the mid-1970s. By the mid 70s, leaders of all institutions which dealt with children should have been aware that there was a growing jeopardy for them with regard to child sexual assault.
The first open response from the Catholic Church was around 1980 when they claimed that the apparent attacks on the church were strictly due to anti-Catholic sentiment......much like many within the F&W church are doing today......30 years later!
By 1982-3, public revelations of priest misbehaviour was starting to occur. By the early 1990's most churches had responded with extensive education for their clergy, and even the Catholic Church diocese of Los Angeles had responded by setting new rules prohibiting priests from hugging, kissing or wrestling with minor children.
This disconnect between the "false" churches taking moral steps to respond to the CSA issue in the early '90s and the stubborn refusal by our own church to even acknowledge the problem until now is remarkable and exactly what all the fuss is about today. What we are talking about is dragging the church out of a moral morass which "false" churches began to do 20 years ago.
So to try to let the church off the hook by claiming that they are being scrutinized by today's standards for 30 year old offenses is simplistic and dismissive of the real problems that exist today. If not for the issue coming to the light of day on forums such as these, does anyone really think that any change would have occurred? We all know that offenders were still being moved around as late as about 10 years ago (Mata) and that until much more recently, mandatory reporting has been largely ignored.
We need to put the history into perspective, and it reveals a very slack ministry group with regard to moral fiber.....most of it due to denial of the truth and failure to admit that we are all just as human and prone to human failure as the "false" churches. To think that we didn't have to deal with this problem is a sign of a church deep in delusion about its own righteousness, and even arrogant about it to some degree.
It's time we admit that we are all sinners and we need to fix these problems going forward.
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Post by Admin on Sept 27, 2010 18:18:17 GMT -5
Postzzz... this week: I would just like to say that I do not read the VOT. I have been there before but have largely avoided it over the years. In fact, I have avoided TMB over the years. IN FACT, I avoided those letters that went around during the 90s when I was in the work. Actually, I didn't have to avoid it. I wasn't interested. I knew what my revelation was. I wasn't raised in a professing home. I wasn't brainwashed or anything. I was called into the work. Plain and clear. IN FACT .....There are people writing on the VOT who I had gospel meetings for and at one time brought them "back into the fold"!!! Now, I see, the problems they had did not get addressed and they are "outside" again. Now I am "outside". The reason I am "outside" is because of my own experience that is independent of any of the things that have been circulated on the VOT or TMB or anywhere else. I was not "poisoned" by all of the "propaganda" of these various efforts from "bitter" exes. The abuses I have seen don't need propaganda to make them hurtful. I do find it amazing that the workers and staunch friends can look at the growing body of exes who are concerned about abuses and still deny that there is something that needs to be done or deny their role in doing something. We have often heard at convention that we have prayers to God, but what is His prayer to you? What is He asking you to do? Is He only asking you to pray?When I screw up in my work, I examine it, figure what I did wrong, and make a plan to never do it again, or do it better. Our church has trouble getting past the first part: acknowledging that we have screwed up. We should be soliciting complaints so that we can make a better future, not castigating the complainants. You are right. I do not want to do away with the meeting fellowship. I do not mind if the fellowship as we know it changes but I do not want to see it "dispersed among the gentiles". I think I would like to see them become a part of the larger body of Christ. I can't see Byron & Co. raising issues with convention stew or other such things. Certainly they won't stir up much support, at least from me. I was quite partial to the stuff. Never got enough of it though, even when I dished it out!
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Post by Admin on Sept 29, 2010 17:08:33 GMT -5
One of the things children inherently know is who they can trust and who they cannot trust. In a wholesome upbringing, as we all know, the ones they trust most are the parents and those the parents trust. In a professing home, that would just about automatically include the workers. Now understandably, where there is an incidence of CSA perpetrated by a worker, the ripple effect is enormous. Not only is the entire concept of trust altered by the "our little secret" negotiated agreement, but as the child matures and becomes aware of the immorality of it all, mistrust extends to the parents. Likewise as parents become aware, mistrust extends to not only the specific worker, but to all workers in general. Then as this is communicated via letter or to an even wider audience such as the readers of this board, the general awareness and mistrust grows to infect a large number of the friends and workers. Not only that, but you have the polarizing effect of those who believe it did happen vs those who believe it didn't happen because it couldn't happen. Is it any wonder why so few outsiders attend more than one or two Gospel meetings? Is there anyone who would not check this way out before committing to it? After doing their homework, what would they find? As easy as this is to research, I would think the workers would be very aware also and wonder what is the point of going to the effort of holding Gospel meetings until this is effectively dealt with. Great post Ron. Parents want the best for their children. Because they believe that this way is the only way to God and that the workers alone are God's true servants, they indoctrinate their children with these things. The world is wrong. This way and the workers are good. Also the kids see their parents revere the workers and life becomes about pleasing the workers. It is difficult to imagine a higher level of trust being breached. It is almost as if God himself is the perpetrator. That is why it is so hard to accept. No wonder many just don't want to know.
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