|
Post by mexicali on Apr 13, 2009 20:28:50 GMT -5
. . . . workers paying the debt because they gave the go-ahead? Ain't never gonna happen that way. saludos - mexicali
|
|
|
Post by mexicali on Apr 13, 2009 20:30:51 GMT -5
Seems some have lost sight of not being a respector of persons when the peso - uh, I mean dollar bill - gets waved around.
JMO saludos - mexicali
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Apr 13, 2009 20:31:15 GMT -5
. . . . workers paying the debt because they gave the go-ahead? Ain't never gonna happen that way. saludos - mexicali Didn't think it would....but one can always hope somebody would see justice is right!
|
|
|
Post by mexicali on Apr 13, 2009 20:33:10 GMT -5
siwells - you are correct when you say "justice is right." Unfortunately it isn't always "done."
saludos - mexicali
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 13, 2009 21:59:06 GMT -5
Sharon, last I heard, the people that lost the money were going to do just that, hand an itemized statement to the workers. I would love to be a fly on that statement.
My guess is that all will be denied, or those that lost the money will just walk away with a better spirit than those that they trusted.
On judgment day, I hope there are enough lawyers to go around. Some folks gonna need em.
|
|
Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
|
Post by Pink on Apr 13, 2009 22:04:28 GMT -5
I swear guys...........could you just break this down for me a bit..........I am a so confused..........If some people gave money to the workers........how could you lose it? It is a gift, right..........I know you all have a legit conversation going on here, but I am lost.........I switched from Bloody Marys to Screwdrivers and I am seriously screwed on this one...........sorry.
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Apr 14, 2009 11:01:46 GMT -5
I swear guys...........could you just break this down for me a bit..........I am a so confused..........If some people gave money to the workers........how could you lose it? It is a gift, right..........I know you all have a legit conversation going on here, but I am lost.........I switched from Bloody Marys to Screwdrivers and I am seriously screwed on this one...........sorry. It basically wasn't "money" that was the "gift" but it cost a lot of money and the "gift" was refused, leaving the "givers" with a large "debt" and nothing to show for it except the "gift" which has devalued in the meantime because it wasn't used for the purpose it was bought for. And worst of all, no thanks in any form for their efforts to do as they were okayed to do but were left holding the bag empty of money but full of "gift" intended for the good of all.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 14, 2009 11:03:40 GMT -5
Nor should you. Just use names like W1, W2 for workers, F1, F2 for friends. Or use fictitious names; that's what I was trying to say above. I'm with pink on trying to follow this. Maybe it's more effort than it's worth.
|
|
|
Post by degem on Apr 14, 2009 11:08:26 GMT -5
I doubt anyone will KNOW ALL the details of what has occured in this mess. The only one who knows all is God.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Apr 14, 2009 11:16:54 GMT -5
Sharon wrote:
Sounds like real estate to me........that was purchased and then was not accepted for use as a convention grounds perhaps?
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 14, 2009 11:23:52 GMT -5
The situation is such that any information would reveal those involved, but the point was that money was lost because of trust in workers, and now those workers need to be held responsible to the ones that lost it.
I am sorry to have sidetracked this thread, but wanted to point out that in this case, if the workers prove to have helped slander people, and damage their reputations and cause them to have legal fees due to the lies that were told, should they not be held financially responsible too? At what point does the individuals actions, say a worker, separate them from the group as a whole? Tim Severud is going to jail for what he did, but if the families needed compensation, for lawyers, counseling, or whatever, does this make him separate from the group? Did what the twins alleged, one recanting, leaving many with blemished records, and in need of defending themselves with attorneys, separate the friends and workers from the entire group in their liability, or do the friends and workers just go buy a new convention grounds with that money, and that is the end? My whole point is this. If there is a "worker perceived" need, it gets met, like needing a new convention grounds. I there is a real need, like attorneys fees and damages, why can that need not be met also, by the group. This seems to not fly right. The F&W's can get control of a convention grounds, and run it like they own it, but when it comes to money, they have none, and I have never heard of any one of the friends that can use that same convention grounds for personal use, like the workers do. Kind of like owning a horse, but not feeding, boarding or training it. Let someone else do that.
What, it really is not worth following, and I apologize for putting it there other than to make a point. I guess a part of a story is not sufficient to make a point, Sorry.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 14, 2009 11:26:14 GMT -5
Also, I believe that the case of the 5 million is still ongoing and I would not like to influence it one way or the other.
Thanks for understanding, and I apologize again for putting part of it here..............P-man
|
|
|
Post by rjs on Apr 14, 2009 13:05:32 GMT -5
4 years ago, TS was a convention speaker at Shoals IN. How the mighty have fallen.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 14, 2009 15:12:42 GMT -5
RJS, sounds like he too, was human. Humans are not mighty, and if everyone has forgotten how Jesus washed his disciples feet, he was showing how being humble was the greater place. I guess that one is not in too many bibles, either.
I put my trust in God. No man, never again......................................Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by nastysteve on Apr 14, 2009 15:43:05 GMT -5
I grew more interested in this thread when I heard that Ontario Canada W&F are involved. I was B&R deeply influenced by this group and know almost all, as friends and family.
There are rumblings in our extended family by female cousins etc.. that a certain uncle's past actions will soon be exposed. I wouldn't be surprised if the cases are related.
|
|
|
Post by jphillips on Apr 14, 2009 16:08:05 GMT -5
Also, I believe that the case of the 5 million is still ongoing and I would not like to influence it one way or the other. Thanks for understanding, and I apologize again for putting part of it here..............P-man So is this 5M covered by 'Obama's Stimulus Package?'
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Apr 14, 2009 17:14:18 GMT -5
Also, I believe that the case of the 5 million is still ongoing and I would not like to influence it one way or the other. Thanks for understanding, and I apologize again for putting part of it here..............P-man So is this 5M covered by 'Obama's Stimulus Package?'LOL, what do you think? LOL
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 14, 2009 17:27:21 GMT -5
The situation is such that any information would reveal those involved, but the point was that money was lost because of trust in workers, and now those workers need to be held responsible to the ones that lost it. I am sorry to have sidetracked this thread, but wanted to point out that in this case, if the workers prove to have helped slander people, and damage their reputations and cause them to have legal fees due to the lies that were told, should they not be held financially responsible too? At what point does the individuals actions, say a worker, separate them from the group as a whole? Tim Severud is going to jail for what he did, but if the families needed compensation, for lawyers, counseling, or whatever, does this make him separate from the group? Did what the twins alleged, one recanting, leaving many with blemished records, and in need of defending themselves with attorneys, separate the friends and workers from the entire group in their liability, or do the friends and workers just go buy a new convention grounds with that money, and that is the end? My whole point is this. If there is a "worker perceived" need, it gets met, like needing a new convention grounds. I there is a real need, like attorneys fees and damages, why can that need not be met also, by the group. This seems to not fly right. The F&W's can get control of a convention grounds, and run it like they own it, but when it comes to money, they have none, and I have never heard of any one of the friends that can use that same convention grounds for personal use, like the workers do. Kind of like owning a horse, but not feeding, boarding or training it. Let someone else do that. What, it really is not worth following, and I apologize for putting it there other than to make a point. I guess a part of a story is not sufficient to make a point, Sorry. I'm starting to get the picture. And it's difficult to make a general point without revealing the specifics. Don't worry about it. I'm not drawing any conclusion one way or the other. I hate to mention another past thread because they seem to be impossible to find, but there was also one on the question of paying compensation to victims of sexual abuse by workers. Again, the search seems not to work, at least it doesn't work for me.
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Apr 14, 2009 18:22:13 GMT -5
Sharon, last I heard, the people that lost the money were going to do just that, hand an itemized statement to the workers. I would love to be a fly on that statement. My guess is that all will be denied, or those that lost the money will just walk away with a better spirit than those that they trusted. On judgment day, I hope there are enough lawyers to go around. Some folks gonna need em. Pianoman, I just thought of something....I wonder if this itemized statement was turned over to a collection agency what might happen then? It's not the workers only that were involved from what I understand but some other friend(s) with MOre money and public sway that made the deal go wrong. It's like having the workers in their pocket and controlling them from that angle. But with the economic woes that are coming to past, I'd say those friend(s) who caused the deal of the millions dollar gift to go wrong will be facing some woes themselves if not already. You know what goes around, comes around....I really feel sorry for the workers who let themselves be caught in the between.....they should of stuck to the original agreement and never included any ideas from anyone else until it was a proven issue about the first agreement. JMO I know one overseer a few years ago, got sent to a foreign country for allowing the rich to get him in their pockets and feeling indebted to them. That was a real tragedy! This is making out for a worst one!
|
|
Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
|
Post by Pink on Apr 14, 2009 18:38:22 GMT -5
I swear guys...........could you just break this down for me a bit..........I am a so confused..........If some people gave money to the workers........how could you lose it? It is a gift, right..........I know you all have a legit conversation going on here, but I am lost.........I switched from Bloody Marys to Screwdrivers and I am seriously screwed on this one...........sorry. It basically wasn't "money" that was the "gift" but it cost a lot of money and the "gift" was refused, leaving the "givers" with a large "debt" and nothing to show for it except the "gift" which has devalued in the meantime because it wasn't used for the purpose it was bought for. And worst of all, no thanks in any form for their efforts to do as they were okayed to do but were left holding the bag empty of money but full of "gift" intended for the good of all. Thanks for clearing this up for me, siwells........
|
|
|
Post by mexicali on Apr 14, 2009 18:40:13 GMT -5
The collection agency idea made me really laugh!! Can you imagine the messages left on the worker's cell phones?? "This is an attempt to collect a debt - anything you say will be held against you . . . . . (or whatever they say in these cases!!).
The problem with an itemized statement is it likely would be full of holes from a legal standpoint. Full of "he said/she promised" - and really hard to explain in court - "well your honor, they told me if I bought/did/sacrificed this - then they would use/do/accept this. And so I DID - - - - and they DIDN'T. Now I want them to repay me/give my money back." Won't fly - unless something is down in writing about the agreement - and that would be very rare from workers.
saludos - mexicali
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 14, 2009 21:09:13 GMT -5
Well, Sharon, the reason that Al Capone went to prison, was not for murder, racketeering, or prostitution or drugs and alcohol, it was for evading taxes. I am afraid that much like the workers, it would take another charge to make them pay, and even then they could avoid it.
Yes there were outside influences, but you know they will run like rabbits when the heat comes on.
I don't think that the F&W's need Obama to Stimulate them, I think they have come up with a system that beats them all. They are craftier than, Al Capone, The other churches, Almost all gangsters, Mafia and Cosa Nostra, and any other crime or religious bunch that have come down the pike in America so far.
If I was into money, I would blueprint their ways and be wealthy beyond belief and laugh at all the suckers that put me in the penthouse.
Sorry to all F&W's that see this, but you gotta admit, it is the smoothest system in town.
Also totally anti-biblical........................................................................Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 14, 2009 22:47:16 GMT -5
Nathan9, It is the best system, but not for the reasons you have stated. I will stand by my statements and have you show me in black and white where I am wrong. If it came from God, why didn't Jesus and the apostles use it, and why is the outline for it not clearly stated in the bible?
This thread is about the Michigan Abuse Case, and I am sorry to side track it talking about financial issues as a whole.
Quite simply, who will pay for the friends and workers that have caused others to have out of pocket expenses?
How can you be a homeless minister, and have financial backing without limit?
Who is going to pick up the tab for the ruined lives of fellow friends and workers, and how will that division ever be repaired?
Nathan, I don't respond much to you, but you need to take off the rose colored glasses.
This is a case that is brothers and sisters, in Christ, pitted against each other. Someone is terribly wrong, and those that stand behind the wrong, are equally wrong. This is not the first and will not be the last, but the F&W's will have to figure out how to financially repair the damage.
This is not about exes and 2x2's this is an inside thing, and how could that happen, if as you claim, Nathan, The fellowship and the money system is from God? Where is God in this?
Unfortunately there are those inside that are just as crooked as some outside. It makes victims of those that are serving God, with the right spirit and life.
I believed what you believe at one time, but had my eyes opened by the workers themselves.
What will those in Michigan, that are wrong do?........................................Pianoman
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Apr 14, 2009 22:56:22 GMT -5
I don't think that the F&W's need Obama to Stimulate them, I think they have come up with a system that beats them all. They are craftier than, Al Capone, The other churches, Almost all gangsters, Mafia and Cosa Nostra, and any other crime or religious bunch that have come down the pike in America so far. If I was into money, I would blueprint their ways and be wealthy beyond belief and laugh at all the suckers that put me in the penthouse. *blink* Bert, surely this will make the list... fs
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 15, 2009 2:31:37 GMT -5
Nathan, put your rose colored glasses back on, and have them darkened about 9 shades. You can send me the bill.
You are very good a dodging the obvious here. Who is going to pay for lost attorney's fees, and damaged reputations?
I guess you are saying that since there were problems in the first churches, it is okay today.
Friends and workers can act totally irresponsibly and not be held financially liable.
I am capitulating to your side. That is a perfect system........ Oppps better ask the entire group of friends and workers on both sides, involved in the Michigan case about this.
If you don't know the whole story in the Michigan case, how can you be an expert and defend anyone. Oh, I forgot, knee jerk. (F&W's were mentioned, jump to defense, worry about facts later.)
If you are going by what you read on here, you are the biggest buffoon on here, and I didn't think that was possible to top.
I am sure you will post about 48 scriptures that make no sense, and spend hours on an answer to a question you can't answer, but I have noticed that you are the resident expert on God.
Do you realize there are others on here that will feel slighted by that. They thought they had cornered the market.
My first and last response to you putting your nose in where it obviously doesn't belong.
This is about an internal matter in the fellowship about the Michigan Abuse Case, and they have enough troubles with self righteous bible thumpers, you may return to your room.
Sorry and hope this thread will return to the subject, Michigan Abuse Case Follow Up....P-man
|
|
|
Post by Sharon on Apr 15, 2009 7:11:54 GMT -5
Nathan, put your rose colored glasses back on, and have them darkened about 9 shades. You can send me the bill. You are very good a dodging the obvious here. Who is going to pay for lost attorney's fees, and damaged reputations? I guess you are saying that since there were problems in the first churches, it is okay today. Friends and workers can act totally irresponsibly and not be held financially liable. I am capitulating to your side. That is a perfect system........ Oppps better ask the entire group of friends and workers on both sides, involved in the Michigan case about this. If you don't know the whole story in the Michigan case, how can you be an expert and defend anyone. Oh, I forgot, knee jerk. (F&W's were mentioned, jump to defense, worry about facts later.) If you are going by what you read on here, you are the biggest buffoon on here, and I didn't think that was possible to top. I am sure you will post about 48 scriptures that make no sense, and spend hours on an answer to a question you can't answer, but I have noticed that you are the resident expert on God. Do you realize there are others on here that will feel slighted by that. They thought they had cornered the market. My first and last response to you putting your nose in where it obviously doesn't belong. This is about an internal matter in the fellowship about the Michigan Abuse Case, and they have enough troubles with self righteous bible thumpers, you may return to your room. Sorry and hope this thread will return to the subject, Michigan Abuse Case Follow Up....P-man Easy there, Pianoman!
|
|
|
Post by nastysteve on Apr 15, 2009 8:18:17 GMT -5
I am also aware of the list of names that was being past around by the ex-sister workers and others. This is pure maliciousness and has opened account one for/in defamation –defamatory libel-!!! BD was also showing this list around till he was called up told he was opening himself up to real problems if we found out about it. Yes I have the date, month, 2008. I am also aware of many of the ON CAN staff male and female also on the list. There are 10 different illegal criminal accounts currently being worked on. Are there any other threads or comments about this on the Boards? I am most interested.
|
|
|
Post by pianoman on Apr 15, 2009 11:33:05 GMT -5
To clarify my statement in I am not referring to the friends and workers as being as bad as the named persons or groups.
I am simply stating that their money system is slicker than those mentioned.
Been there, done that, seen the results.
I am sorry, but I did not create that system, and unless someone can show me a simple statement that proves my statement wrong I will accept it and apologize.
Otherwise, Nathan suggests that if you give your life to God, you can have the riches of this earth, as promised.
Back to the topic of the thread. Has not White Knight stated on here that they had to hire a P.I. out of his pocket. Why should he have to suffer that loss, if he comes our vindicated?
Michigan friends and workers are involved in this, and surly must pay for damages.
Sorry, Sharon, but I just got carried away with Nathan. His justifications make me crazy. It is attitudes like that, that keep me from ever coming back.
Quoting Bert on another thread. "if you can't stand the heat....."......................Pianoman
|
|