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Post by degem on Apr 10, 2009 10:29:44 GMT -5
i wonder though, white knight, if such a mess will ever be cleared up, giving the magnitude of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2009 10:37:20 GMT -5
Good idea WK, and the situation in MI is the ideal crisis from which a new beginning can occur. The changes have to be momentous though as there needs to be the beginning of a new culture of honesty, forthrightness, openness, and charity in order for something this complex to ever be sorted out.
I don't hold out a lot of hope for this happening......but I have a little.
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Post by degem on Apr 10, 2009 10:56:21 GMT -5
"prayer is a mighty source of power"
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 10, 2009 11:30:59 GMT -5
"prayer is a mighty source of power" AMEN!!!
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peace and joy
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For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace,and joy in the Holy Ghost
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Post by peace and joy on Apr 10, 2009 11:57:55 GMT -5
It would be nice if all the truth of the situation would come out and could be discussed in the open, but that probably will never happen.
It is very obvious that some evil persons were involved in this mess, and intentionally tried to hurt or destroy others. Who knows why they started this in the beginning - maybe purely the work of Satan, maybe the need for some kind of glory or power in their own lives thinking they were going to expose something, many were deceived in the beginning, and many refused to accept the truth when confronted with it. Some of those who are exes, but not directly involved in this mess, chose to become involved to try to destroy the faith of others.
The truth of the matter has come out. It was all lies from the beginning. Where do things go from here? I'm very thankful for those who have not let themselves become bitter over these wrong doings and maintained a soft and tender heart knowing that God is in control.
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Post by degem on Apr 10, 2009 12:00:04 GMT -5
"I'm very thankful for those who have not let themselves become bitter over these wrong doings and maintained a soft and tender heart knowing that God is in control"-I agree peace and joy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2009 12:02:22 GMT -5
Good idea WK, and the situation in MI is the ideal crisis from which a new beginning can occur. The changes have to be momentous though as there needs to be the beginning of a new culture of honesty, forthrightness, openness, and charity in order for something this complex to ever be sorted out. I don't hold out a lot of hope for this happening......but I have a little. I admire your idealism clearday. However you stated "don't hold out a lot of hope", which I think is correct. Far beyond the current Michigan stuff is the fact that some have been forced out of the group (for nonsense reasons in Michigan and most other places). If a healing process over the Michigan situation is put forth as we all would like to see, then the clock must be rolled back to include many many other situations. I do not see this happening ever. To admit these grievous errors would really mean a total review of the 2x2 church group. There have been many who have been forced to depart here in the UK. The overseers have been questioned and things have been discussed-----In all cases the thinking has been denial of error and a total lack of making right what was clearly a wrong by the powers of leadership. Many followers agreed with the merits of the error but stayed silent even to the point of dissing long friends. This is really sad I would describe myself as an idealistic realist (or a realistic idealist??). That is, hold up high the good ideals then hope we all come a little closer than before. I like your suggestion of going back and trying to correct the past too. However, we need to get a new base of a healthy vibrant church built first. Once done, much of the past would get revisited spontaneously imo. There is still no sign of a fast-growing recognition that we need to self-examine the church from ground-up because of its poor condition. That has to be the first step. As for now, our leaders are working full time putting out fires without realizing that the real problem is that the church is simply built out of too much combustible material.
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Post by pianoman on Apr 10, 2009 16:31:17 GMT -5
Due to the nature of this case, and the fact that sides have been taken, and the legalities are not complete, not much can be accomplished other than to start the healing process. There never will be a complete healing, and those that have chosen their sides, will probably remain on the side they have chosen, regardless of what comes to light.
This is a case of putting too much stock in what a worker may think. Having respect, and regard is one thing, but to blindly put your faith in a person, worker or not, is unwise, and will only lead to a letdown.
In this case it is obvious who has taken the high moral ground, and is trying to settle things, while others would just have it fester and remain.
White Knight has a long difficult road ahead, and prayer for him, and seeing that he is trying to put the story straight, while having his hands tied legally, is not a fun spot to be in.
I applaud his efforts to attempt to have both sides come together, and hope that some will make that effort. I believe that once the real whole truth is out, many will see what he has had to endure, having facts that he can not present, at this time.
In due time, all will come out, and then it will be up to individuals to start acting in a reasonable fashion. He can only look back, knowing that he did the right thing, and tried to help others, only to be trapped in the mess himself.
I know from our conversations on the phone, that he is deeply troubled by this mess, and would have all sides just start over, if that were possible. Since it is not possible to totally forget, the next phase is to forgive and try to move on. This will have a great impact on so many, and as we discussed, for each person involved, their entire family falls into the battle ground too. The number 200 that he mentions does not include family and friends of those people, and the number grows rapidly, to reach so many others.
It is hard to imagine how this will all end, but God will have his way. ............................Pianoman
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Post by Sharon on Apr 10, 2009 21:15:28 GMT -5
I found it hilarious when I spoke to a worker who is From Michigan who has Family in Michigan but he does labor in another state, when I asked him about the fiasco in MI................he said he really didn't know anything about it???!!!! Could one possibly believe that? My MIL has 2 professing siblings with kids in MN and 2 professing in laws (1 an elder and 1 an ex worker) and she didn't know about Tim Severud until about 3 weeks ago when I shared some things with her. Even if it is "out in the open" there is still an air of secrecy... This is a very strange report...it was told to me that LS and CW sent out notifications letters to all the friends in MN...with instructions to parents with children to calmly question their children to see if any of them had possibly been victims!
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Post by bandtroll on Apr 11, 2009 11:42:43 GMT -5
This is a very strange report...it was told to me that LS and CW sent out notifications letters to all the friends in MN...with instructions to parents with children to calmly question their children to see if any of them had possibly been victims! I don't know that the letter went out to "all" in MN. It may have only been to those who he may have had contact with or ones that had kids.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 11, 2009 12:16:19 GMT -5
This is a very strange report...it was told to me that LS and CW sent out notifications letters to all the friends in MN...with instructions to parents with children to calmly question their children to see if any of them had possibly been victims! I don't know that the letter went out to "all" in MN. It may have only been to those who he may have had contact with or ones that had kids. That was my point, LAG wrote that these parents had kids and knew nothing of the situation! That was why I commented! I thought it strange that any parents in MN were not contacted? I also have been dismayed at "all-contact" letters or posting being made "BEFORE" any legal investigation was done or completed as being highly suspect and preempting the "verdict" and outcome of the whole mess. MI is not the only place that this happened, but perhaps has the most fallout victims because of it! What is it going to take for those in positions of power to make themselves come up and apologize and admit to any wrong doings or handlings due to pure ignorance? It takes a mighty big person to say "I'm sorry! What can I do to help make it better? I was wrong, I operated on misinformation and pure ignorance!" That isn't much to say when the price has been so high! I actually think civil lawsuits are perhaps the only way to begin to make this comeout of lies and misperceptions....maybe the only way to wake up those who cannot begin to see for themselves exactly what the mirror of life is trying to tell us! I've been sick about those who are and have suffered! To think they stood behind those who've turned against them! What a payback! I love those folks in MI and I love their continued soft hearts! I pray for those falsely accused and their lives been ruined as well.....it's a hard row to hoe for any of them!
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Post by pianoman on Apr 11, 2009 13:13:51 GMT -5
To me, one of the biggest travesties is that workers can be involved in this kind of thing, and then claim that they have no money when civil action is the result of them jumping the gun, or just being wrong. Many have had to hire legal counsel to defend their innocence. How did any workers get money for lawyers.
One thing that bothers me greatly, is that when a worker needs something that costs money, there is always enough. Trip to a foreign country, "no problem". Taking care of civil actions against them, "we're broke".
This is a problem, and this case in MI will stick around for a long time, and those that had to pay to protect their innocence should be compensated by the workers. Maybe this will lead to an investigation into where the money stash is for the workers. Anyone that denies that it exists is really fooled. I bet that the revelation of how much money there is for workers, and the location of those funds would be a greater eye opener than the William Irvine revelation.
I just hope that those that are seeking peace in this will find it, and the others will be troubled until they can come clean.
Tough spot for any of them to be in................................................Pianoman
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Post by ilylo on Apr 11, 2009 13:40:02 GMT -5
One thing that bothers me greatly, is that when a worker needs something that costs money, there is always enough. Trip to a foreign country, "no problem". Taking care of civil actions against them, "we're broke". They want to be taken seriously, but they refuse to assume responsibility for their role within the whole of society. The "work" is not a ministry. It's an inbred social club.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2009 14:03:06 GMT -5
I don't know that the letter went out to "all" in MN. It may have only been to those who he may have had contact with or ones that had kids. That was my point, LAG wrote that these parents had kids and knew nothing of the situation! That was why I commented! I thought it strange that any parents in MN were not contacted? I also have been dismayed at "all-contact" letters or posting being made "BEFORE" any legal investigation was done or completed as being highly suspect and preempting the "verdict" and outcome of the whole mess. MI is not the only place that this happened, but perhaps has the most fallout victims because of it! What is it going to take for those in positions of power to make themselves come up and apologize and admit to any wrong doings or handlings due to pure ignorance? It takes a mighty big person to say "I'm sorry! What can I do to help make it better? I was wrong, I operated on misinformation and pure ignorance!" That isn't much to say when the price has been so high! I actually think civil lawsuits are perhaps the only way to begin to make this comeout of lies and misperceptions....maybe the only way to wake up those who cannot begin to see for themselves exactly what the mirror of life is trying to tell us! I've been sick about those who are and have suffered! To think they stood behind those who've turned against them! What a payback! I love those folks in MI and I love their continued soft hearts! I pray for those falsely accused and their lives been ruined as well.....it's a hard row to hoe for any of them! Sharon, to the best of my knowledge those 'all contact' letters need to be sent as soon as there are allegations. You have to sacrifice the privacy of the alleged perpetrator for the safety of potential victims, and also to encourage other victims to come forward. The wording of the letter is important, but this is what I've been led to believe by other church groups.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2009 14:07:27 GMT -5
To me, one of the biggest travesties is that workers can be involved in this kind of thing, and then claim that they have no money when civil action is the result of them jumping the gun, or just being wrong. Many have had to hire legal counsel to defend their innocence. How did any workers get money for lawyers. One thing that bothers me greatly, is that when a worker needs something that costs money, there is always enough. Trip to a foreign country, "no problem". Taking care of civil actions against them, "we're broke". This is a problem, and this case in MI will stick around for a long time, and those that had to pay to protect their innocence should be compensated by the workers. Maybe this will lead to an investigation into where the money stash is for the workers. Anyone that denies that it exists is really fooled. I bet that the revelation of how much money there is for workers, and the location of those funds would be a greater eye opener than the William Irvine revelation. I just hope that those that are seeking peace in this will find it, and the others will be troubled until they can come clean. Tough spot for any of them to be in................................................Pianoman Exactly how the money "goes around" has been well documented on different threads here on TMB. Are you against workers engaging legal counsel? I wouldn't advise anyone go into court without a lawyer, even a worker.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Apr 11, 2009 15:30:38 GMT -5
My MIL has 2 professing siblings with kids in MN and 2 professing in laws (1 an elder and 1 an ex worker) and she didn't know about Tim Severud until about 3 weeks ago when I shared some things with her. Even if it is "out in the open" there is still an air of secrecy...
My point was although my MIL (who does not live in MN but in a neighboring state) has siblings whose kids have kids that go to meetings and they would have received the letter none of her family passed the information along to her.
So here is a professing person that only lives within a short distance of the situation and had no idea that a brother worker from MN (her home state) was in prison, she did not even know he wasn't in the work any more.
For as fast as the news travels when someone (especially a worker) dies, I find it shocking that she didn't know and wouldn't have had any idea if I hadn't told her.
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Post by pianoman on Apr 11, 2009 16:26:17 GMT -5
What, I am not suggesting that anyone go to court without representation.
My point is, with as much money as the F&W's have, when they are guilty of wrongdoing and should be sued in a civil court, why can they claim poverty at that time?
I think that many that remain in the 2x2 way would be really shocked to find out how much money has been accumulated, and where it is, and how it is spent.
To me, it is like saying, well I don't have enough money for the necessary things, but bump me up to first class on that flight.
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Post by glory2god on Apr 11, 2009 22:03:56 GMT -5
The "work" is not a ministry. It's an inbred social club.
Brilliant observation!
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Post by pianoman on Apr 12, 2009 0:23:51 GMT -5
What, can you provide me with the sites that have documented the financial documentation of the workers?
I am serious, I would like to read about it. I am not that familiar with different sites, and have not read anything about this.
Thanks...........................Pianoman
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Apr 12, 2009 12:09:06 GMT -5
May we all keep focused, and don't be blinded by misgivings of any type...
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Post by What Hat on Apr 12, 2009 12:21:25 GMT -5
What, can you provide me with the sites that have documented the financial documentation of the workers? I am serious, I would like to read about it. I am not that familiar with different sites, and have not read anything about this. Thanks...........................Pianoman I just spent 20 minutes using the cruddy search function, and drew blanks. The problem is that you can search for words like "Trust funds", which I know have been used in posts, and the no-good search function tells you there is nothing there. Anyway, the issue has come up often enough and some contributors here seem to know how things are done. What I remember in general is that - 1) the tax treatment is based on rules concerning "gifts", 2) the approach used has been checked against IRS rules, and is sound. There's been quite a number of 'hothead posts' about workers and taxes. If you want to search for the threads be my guest, and let me know what you find. Regarding your point above about money available for some things and not for others. It seems to me that gifts to workers are held in trust for the furtherance of the ministry, and they don't receive an income, per se. I don't know what your point of reference is regarding availability of funds for legal expenses, but the workers do not have complete discretion in how the money they receive is used, and some things would fall outside the intention with which the money is given. But I don't disagree with what you're saying at heart; it seems to me that it's not that easy a problem to solve.
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Post by pianoman on Apr 12, 2009 17:43:00 GMT -5
I will let you know if I dig up anything on that subject.
I know for a fact that some workers can pretty much do what they want with certain amounts of money. That is not large sums, but I do know where some folks lost 5 million dollars on worker misconduct. That doesn't make all corrupt, but where there is money, there will be a Judas.
I agree, this is a hard problem to solve. I just don't think you should be able to cause financial devastation to another, then claim that you are a homeless preacher. I am not saying that happened, but I am saying that can happen.
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Post by lin on Apr 12, 2009 18:06:37 GMT -5
How would you lose 5 million dollars on someone elses conduct,and not be stupid yourself?
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Post by Sharon on Apr 12, 2009 18:41:41 GMT -5
How would you lose 5 million dollars on someone elses conduct,and not be stupid yourself? Lin! I'm sorry but there wasn't stupidity in some cases other then "trusting" overseers! You think you can take an overseer at his word....think again! If there's another pot of money that looks bigger and better, you might just get left holding an empty bank pouch! That's the truth! It's happened in recent times, no less! I understand that workers often get "indebted" to the friends who fork the money out for the truth's fellowship's needs and wants, but for friends to literally get an overseer or two in their pockets and use that against someone else who is just as willing to "help" isn't godly at all. That's not brotherly love at all. The ones who hold the workers in their pockets and the workers who are "indebted" to such are wrong, pure wrong. I know of an overseer of sometime ago that was removed from his position because this happened but in such a minor scale as compared to what has gone on recently. I think that it needs to happen again. That removed overseer became very helpful to all after that. He seemed to learn his lesson, but then he could've been like JK, being sent to a foreign country so people could forget, eh?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 13, 2009 9:34:57 GMT -5
If there is some kind of story here, then let's hear it, but tell it in such a way that the individuals cannot be identified by the unknowing. That is, don't give anything away that might identify the persons involved, including the use of initials, place names, or any identifying characteristics.
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Post by ilylo on Apr 13, 2009 10:53:37 GMT -5
How would you lose 5 million dollars on someone elses conduct,and not be stupid yourself? Interesting question coming from someone who himself was once suckered into the social club... errr.... the "work."
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Post by pianoman on Apr 13, 2009 10:54:48 GMT -5
What, I am afraid that I am not at liberty to name names or to reveal much about the deal. Siwells nailed it with trusting workers and overseers. You have two choices in believing this. Don't believe it, because I won't break a confidence, or believe it because I have never lied on here. I won't start now, and hate it when people lie. This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder where the "war chest" is, how much is in it and who is minding the till. I know there are those that say that the FBI has investigated the 2x2s and has found no fault in their practices, but I don't believe that any one person really knows what is done and what isn't. I used to hear about the people giving, and not writing the money off of their taxes, and certain things about workers not receiving salaries. I since have learned that certain ones claim workers on their taxes and certain workers get social security checks. There is nothing wrong with that, unless it is claimed to be different. That is called a lie.
Just as the argument has been made that workers haven't taken a vow of poverty, Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. When he sent them, he told them not to take certain items, and "script" is money. If they have such strong faith, why would they need money, and possessions. I thought is was "sell all that you have and give to the poor". My sister sold what she had, and distributed it among her friends, in the 2x2 faith. She also came into a lot of money while in the work, and lied to the overseer about her brothers motives, and was hidden by the friends and workers to keep her "evil" brothers from finding her. In all she made off with over $250K. We will never know the sum, but because she was a worker, she put many friends and workers, that I once respected, in jeopardy, simply because of greed. This is happening all of the time, where a worker with poor motives tells others lies, and they simply believe because a worker wouldn't lie, right? Again, this is not a slam against the entire 2x2s, but they would not step up and return money that belongs to me and my brother. My brother turned on me and did the same, ripped me off for a large sum of money. He is not in the fellowship, so I guess that is to be expected. My problem, respect for the fellowship, at the time, and too much Christian type of trusting. I guess that I get by, so I didn't need as much as they did, but I won't have to answer to God about how they got my money, and I didn't pursue this matter like I could have. What relevance is this to this case and the 5 million I mentioned? Workers that have personal motives, or just are too puffed up, and are going to "do the right thing" can cause problems, and never have to be accountable for their actions, no matter how much money a person loses because of their over zealousness. If the person that was ripped off chooses to reveal the matter, I will let you know.
P.S. What, I will PM you sites about the Michigan case.................................Pianoman
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Post by Sharon on Apr 13, 2009 19:54:28 GMT -5
Pianoman, I wonder what the workers would do if those who are in debt those 5 million would hand an itemized statement as in "billing" them...after all, it was an "agreement" with the workers, as I understand and it sure seems like to me that the workers should pay at least 50 per cent of the debt, eh? They gave the go-ahead I'm supposing....don't think people are that stupid to go in debt that much without a worker or two saying that was what was needed or such. I strongly suspect those other friends who hold those workers in their pocket "appear" to have "more" money....when in all reality with the economic crunch going on right now....they are looking at grave economical woes themselves! JMO
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