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Post by juliette on Oct 11, 2008 21:50:21 GMT -5
Jesse: I haven't taken the course you mentioned, but it's great that you did and I hope you find it useful. I am not compelled to take it. I'm not in the ministry, the church I attend holds regular training for people involved with children in the church, and I have received a fair amount of "training" in parenting courses and groups. Juli
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Post by juliette on Oct 11, 2008 22:01:58 GMT -5
Lin:
I don't see where you've been getting "bashed" (except maybe by people who just like to fight with you over anything... I try and ignore that stuff). I think it's great if you are getting involved in this issue within your church. I think you will get nothing but support from the WINGS group. My experience in my area with CSA recently was that most within the fellowship of the friends and workers absolutely did not want to talk about the issue or address it in any way. My parents did not even tell me that a man who had been alone with my children was in jail for molesting a 10 year old. The lack of response from the fellowship regarding recent CSA issue was what prompted some concerned "outsiders" to take action.
As with any change, there are growing pains. The pain you see on the WINGS site I believe has to do with the years of the issue of CSA not being properly addressed within the fellowship. This happened within other churches as well, most notably, the Catholic church. I think most mainstream Christian denominations are just ahead of the game on this issue because they were forced to or chose to address it earlier.
Juli
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 0:14:49 GMT -5
And where are you seeing where I use the word "bashing"? I dont see it Reply #334: The claim is made that they get bashed for doing nothing and they get bashed for doing something: Seems we get bashed because we do nothing. We start and get bashed anyway. Reply #335: You echo the sentiments of the previous claim; "you are right", followed by an alternate wording of his claim; "you're danged if you do and danged if you don't". Yes you are right lin, "you're danged if you do and danged if you don't." Your use of the word "bashed" was implicit rather than explicit. You agreed with his statement and claimed solidarity with its sentiment by re-stating the claim by means of similar wording. If your words were designed with alternate intent, I'd love to hear it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 7:44:21 GMT -5
Lin, I want to encourage you and Jesse in your work on a CSA web site. I sincerely want you to prove me wrong that our church is not able to reach out to help and protect our children in the church environment. It will be a good day if you succeed in this.
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Post by lin on Oct 12, 2008 7:58:18 GMT -5
I have no doubt we will succeed We have had numerous emails of professional people that have offered to help. We are not doing this for our name or to promote ourselves. I will add this. We are not doing this to prove anyone right or wrong. We are only seeking to educate people that the proper place to take abuse problems is to the authorities where they can substantiate the rights of the accused as well as the accuser. This is not told on a website with a National Enquirer format.
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 9:31:31 GMT -5
I have no doubt we will succeed We have had numerous emails of professional people that have offered to help. Success is measured in terms of results, not intentions. You can have every professional on earth on your side but if the 2x2s refuse to become educated and modify their behavior, you will fail. Thank God for Wings. It's comforting to know that there's a website out there willing to educate and inform the public even without the cooperation of the 2x2s as a whole. Time and your results will reveal your motives. Stating your intended goals is only part of the planning process. You must also have a plan of action for reaching those goals. You've stated your goal: To educate people so they know that abuse issues should be taken directly to the authorities. This is a nice start but it gives rise to more questions than answers. Here are just a few of them: 1) How will you effectively deliver this message to all 2x2s, friends and workers alike?2) How will you convince your 2x2 audience that "authorities" means "law enforcement officials" and not "2x2 workers"?3) How will you convince your 2x2 audience that in matters of CSA, the authority of "law enforcement officials" trumps that of "2x2 workers"?4) How will you convince your 2x2 audience that it is actually possible for a 2x2 saint and even a 2x2 worker to commit an act for which their earthly future must be put into the hands of "worldly" and "lost men"?5) How will you accomplish your goals while maintaining a sense of integrity, credibility, and authority in the eyes of your 2x2 audience?6) What percentage of all 2x2s will need to take you seriously (thereby becoming "your 2x2 audience" mentioned above) for you to consider your efforts a success?I was not aware you had even entertained this notion. I'm surprised that anyone in their right mind would even adopt such a format for use in a genuinely serious endeavor. I would ask "What were you thinking?" but I'll pass with "I'm glad you're taking a more serious route." I look forward to your answers to the above six questions.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 12, 2008 10:56:04 GMT -5
I have no doubt we will succeed We have had numerous emails of professional people that have offered to help. We are not doing this for our name or to promote ourselves. I will add this. We are not doing this to prove anyone right or wrong. We are only seeking to educate people that the proper place to take abuse problems is to the authorities where they can substantiate the rights of the accused as well as the accuser. This is not told on a website with a National Enquirer format. Care to specify what website you think has a national enquirer format? This oughta be rich, coming from the president of the "I'm not an ostrich" society.
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Post by lin on Oct 12, 2008 11:22:52 GMT -5
Frank I appreciated you concerns but I am not a person who deals with negatives. I am sure the points you brought up are not as big as you think.
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Post by juliette on Oct 12, 2008 11:38:15 GMT -5
Why do some of you feel the need to start in on Lin on this? Why not wish him the best and wait and see what happens. On one hand, people complain that the fellowship hasn't done enough to combat CSA (a valid point, in my view). On the other hand, someone steps up, and you jump all over him. Frank... all of the points you make to Lin could have been made to the WINGS group.
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 11:52:18 GMT -5
Frank I appreciated you concerns but I am not a person who deals with negatives. You will face negatives in any endeavor. Refusing to deal with them only guarantees failure. Optimism is great but pretending that opposing forces don't exist isn't positive thinking, it's foolish thinking, and downright stupid. Clearly, you've seriously underestimated your audience and in so doing, you've failed before you've even begun. Your failure is official now. If anything substantive in your "plan" changes, let us know. Failures don't plan to fail; they fail to plan. - Harvey Mackay
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Post by lin on Oct 12, 2008 11:55:40 GMT -5
The only failure is doing nothing
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Post by juliette on Oct 12, 2008 12:28:10 GMT -5
The only failure is doing nothing Amen.
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 12:32:11 GMT -5
Why do some of you feel the need to start in on Lin on this? This is a discussion board. Discussion happens here. If you have a problem with it, feel free to move on. Wishes are for children. There is no need to wait and see what happens when the goal is only stated vaguely and the plan of action is non-existent. Intentions are worthless. Accomplishments count. No one has stepped up. Lin has started day-dreaming but entertaining fantastic visions of magically spinning straw into gold is not stepping up, it's folly. Indeed. professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=11550
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 12:37:32 GMT -5
The only failure is doing nothing The only failure is doing nothing Amen. Aimlessly wandering through the wilderness while dreaming of some imagined goal is not success. Don't be discouraged by rational thought or the voice of reason though as you will accomplish something: Some of us will enjoy watching as you spin your wheels in vain as you attempt to spin straw into gold.
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Post by JO on Oct 12, 2008 13:48:06 GMT -5
Some scripture came to mind while reading this thread:
Nehemiah 2:17-19 Then I said to them, "You see the trouble we are in: Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, and we will no longer be in disgrace." I also told them about the gracious hand of my God upon me and what the king had said to me. They replied, "Let us start rebuilding." So they began this good work.
But when Sanballat the Horonite, Tobiah the Ammonite official and Geshem the Arab heard about it, they mocked and ridiculed us. "What is this you are doing?" they asked.
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 16:23:57 GMT -5
It's amusing and quite telling of motives, to witness the extent to which some people will go simply to avoid answering a question.
Perhaps a perception of one's own allergy to engaged thinking is symptomatic of brainwashing.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Oct 12, 2008 20:13:48 GMT -5
Don't feed the shark it will die. Drain the water it will be putrefying. Pollute it's waters and it can't think straight. Frank your motives stink. Did someone let the water out of your aquarium?
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Post by Frank on Oct 12, 2008 22:25:42 GMT -5
Don't feed the shark it will die. Only if it is in captivity. There is life outside a captive environment. The polluted waters you offer appeal to some but not all. You don't know a thing about my motives. You are nothing more than another enraged, bitter, and rebellious 2x2, short on substance and full of hot air. I don't have an aquarium. I love aquatic life but I promised my wife shortly after we were married that I would not maintain an aquatic environment due to her sensitivity to the associated smells.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Oct 12, 2008 23:26:01 GMT -5
Don't feed the shark it will die. Only if it is in captivity. There is life outside a captive environment. The polluted waters you offer appeal to some but not all. You don't know a thing about my motives. You are nothing more than another enraged, bitter, and rebellious 2x2, short on substance and full of hot air. I don't have an aquarium. I love aquatic life but I promised my wife shortly after we were married that I would not maintain an aquatic environment due to her sensitivity to the associated smells. Most refuse the court room. If you really want to contest the hot air deal then let’s go for it. I'm quite sure your tune will change, but then again you are a bit of a hammer head. Because, if you, like others, have read, all of my posting's, in all the threads. You would not be so negative! In my observation of your type. I know you won’t quit. OR maybe, because of your motive, seems to be on a distortion level.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Oct 12, 2008 23:53:01 GMT -5
I understand that the younger sister worker is up to no good. I have received two reports of her further involvements, one is in doctrine another has something to do with interfering in a matrimony? Was there not a male worker put out because of the same thing concerning doctrine. Just wondering? Wonder who’s paying for their cell phones, rent, food, hydro, car, INS, ect,ect.
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Post by Frank on Oct 13, 2008 0:46:40 GMT -5
Most refuse the court room. The straps and buckles on your straight-jacket compliment your shoes. No contest. You win. Hands down. You'd be surprised just how little influence your opinion has on my position. Your hood has moved again and is obstructing your vision. Adjust it. There is nothing in your prior 141 posts that in anyway diminishes the abject stupidity of this nonsense: Don't feed the shark it will die. Drain the water it will be putrefying. Pollute it's waters and it can't think straight. Frank your motives stink. Did someone let the water out of your aquarium? For whatever reason, the most likely being paranoia brought on by a drug induced high, you started in on me. I merely responded. Thus far, where "observations of my type" are concerned, you've shown yourself to be an utter failure. You know little. You blow a lot. I tend to be persistent but I know when to quit. That's it, keep guessing. At least it'll give you something to do. Again, you don't know a thing about my motives. You are nothing more than another enraged, bitter, and rebellious 2x2, short on substance and full of hot air. Your hallucinations have distorted your reality. Get help.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Oct 14, 2008 21:04:52 GMT -5
Frank: Simple question's have you been accused in this CASE? How involved are you in this case? TO what advantage is it to you, in pulling the credibility of others apart?
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Post by lin on Oct 15, 2008 5:59:00 GMT -5
I understand that the younger sister worker is up to no good. I have received two reports of her further involvements, one is in doctrine another has something to do with interfering in a matrimony? Was there not a male worker put out because of the same thing concerning doctrine. Just wondering? Wonder who’s paying for their cell phones, rent, food, hydro, car, INS, ect,ect. White Knight: Why do you think all of this will stop? It"s only the beginning. This is all the product of evil people,with one purpose in mind. One of their own has already stated. It isn't over yet.
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Post by Frank on Oct 15, 2008 9:12:46 GMT -5
Frank: Simple question's have you been accused in this CASE? No, not that it's relevant where the exchange between you and I here is concerned. Not that it's relevant where the exchange between you and I here is concerned but I'll answer your question anyway. Call me a concerned observer. I'm an ex-2x2. I have many friends and relatives that are 2x2s and ex-2x2s, some in the affected area though, as far as I am aware, none of them are immediately involved in the case. I am not pulling apart the credibility of others. If others lack credibility, the integrity of their story will deteriorate with time and truth as facts emerge. If, in the course of discussion and debate, I contribute to the process of exposing fraud, so be it. Don't shoot the messenger; If someone's credibility is sound, it cannot be pulled apart; However, if someone's credibility cannot stand on it's own merit, it's asking to be ripped to shreds. Furthermore, everyone involved, either directly or through loose association, has a vested interest in right being done. This is an advantage all can share. Now, once again, I will draw your attention to the fact that none of this in anyway diminishes the abject stupidity of this nonsense: Don't feed the shark it will die. Drain the water it will be putrefying. Pollute it's waters and it can't think straight. Frank your motives stink. Did someone let the water out of your aquarium? For whatever reason, the most likely being paranoia brought on by a drug induced high, you started in on me. I merely responded.
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Post by harpsichord on Oct 15, 2008 9:20:40 GMT -5
So did all the people involved with this Michigan thing to back to meetings with every thing OK?---I asked this before and I include those accused, family broken apart the accusers --- All of them. I want to know if they really are one big happy family? So then since this question fails to get an answer and the fact that the rat-tat-tat of (they did or did not) continues; I guess that the kingdom in Michigan is not all one big happy family after all. (My Opinion based on reading this thread)
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Post by Frank on Oct 15, 2008 12:11:28 GMT -5
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Post by lin on Oct 15, 2008 12:18:19 GMT -5
answer a fool according to his folly
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Post by Frank on Oct 15, 2008 21:40:42 GMT -5
answer a fool according to his folly according to his folly
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