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Post by sojourningthrulife on Oct 10, 2008 15:22:31 GMT -5
It has been observed that in general children who are well cared for are less likely to be abused than children who appear to be that no one cares for them in particular.
In other words, the more you care for your children, the less LIKELY they are to be abused.
Perhaps the abuser knows in advance that you will be angry and he/she fears that reprisal coming from the parent more even than what the law will do.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 10, 2008 15:32:41 GMT -5
Clearday: First of all since when is it the job of the church to protect children. As a parent and grandparent myself myself I feel it is my responsibility to protect my children. True it is not right that Wings ever came into existence as structured. While it was being organized where were the people who could have recognized the need and do something about it. I have talked to Scott about this and looked into the possibility of a couple of options. 1. We do come up with an educational site about the problem of Abuse. That option is being worked on right now 2. The option that we take over Wings and run it as our own site. The answer to this was no. Even if we do come up with our site Wings will still exist. So therefore it appears to me that Wings has more advantages than just the issue of child abuse. Theres plenty of room/need for another CSA website. There is much yet that needs to be set up to protect the children and most of it could be better handled/accomplished by innies rather than exes. I mentioned two of them above. There are more. Mandatory worker and elder CSA education. Therapy provisions for victims. WINGS was approached about setting up a fund to collect for victims needs...but has not done so.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 10, 2008 16:38:00 GMT -5
Ilylo Are you in charge of the amen corner? lin, don't be so hateful.
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Post by JO on Oct 10, 2008 20:06:25 GMT -5
Clearday: First of all since when is it the job of the church to protect children. As a parent and grandparent myself myself I feel it is my responsibility to protect my children. True it is not right that Wings ever came into existence as structured. While it was being organized where were the people who could have recognized the need and do something about it. I have talked to Scott about this and looked into the possibility of a couple of options. 1. We do come up with an educational site about the problem of Abuse. That option is being worked on right now 2. The option that we take over Wings and run it as our own site. The answer to this was no. Even if we do come up with our site Wings will still exist. So therefore it appears to me that Wings has more advantages than just the issue of child abuse. Lin, the church has failed miserably in protecting its children so we should be thankful that outsiders care enough to do what they can to help. Children have been sexually abused at conventions, after Sunday AM meetings and at other church gatherings. Trusted workers have abused children in their own homes and workers have abused their younger companions. Its an utter disgrace and it won't be resolved by sweeping it under the carpet. It needs to be put out there for all to see. And the legal system should be allowed to take its course. You asked "where were the people who could have recognized the need and do something about it?" In a hierarchical church system there's little can be done if those above you in the hierarchy are CSA perpetrators or sympathizers. The following quotes from WINGS of two seperate cases are an example of the kind of leadership that has enabled CSA to flourish: 1. I told this Sister Worker – Vella – who I was pretty close to about what was happening to me. She then went to the Head Worker for the Sisters and the Head Worker for the men. The next day I was called out on the red carpet by Charles (Overseer), and the head lady worker – Virginia. I was told “this is not something that should be discussed here. It was our family secret and it needed to stay that way” and I was told never to say anything about it again. I was very heart-broken to say the least.
2. My father’s reputation as a worker and elder in "The Truth" made him welcome in homes, meetings, and conventions across the U.S. and overseas. I believe the workers failure to press charges, warn the saints, or even acknowledge or validate the victims, are travesties of justice that continue to this day.
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Post by Sharon on Oct 10, 2008 21:12:25 GMT -5
I feel perhaps it is a disservice to the "victims" to "publicly" display their "pain" until THEY WANT TO DO IT THEMSELVES! If they perpuate their own "website" to tell about their experience then that seems to give permission to the "public" to know every dirty secret that has caused the victime extreme pain! I really feel that the workers are NOT equipped to handle the pyscho-social ramifications of the CSA! I honest feel that and I'm not trying to "knock" any particular person's abilities...they just are not "educated" nor "trained" to handle the manifold ramifications of even the fallout from an accusation much less one very definitely witnessed or admitted! Validation for a victim can only come from their oppressor's confession or conviction of guilt! No one else can validate their experience for them! I agree we do not want to "ignore" the "warning" signs, but then pedophilia is said to be a mental disease or disorder.....if that is so there is no way it can be prevented OTHER then "teaching" very young children to know what is right and wrong in how others behave around and with them! I fault the parents as much or more then the perpetuator of the offense! I was very well aware of these issues by the time I was 4 yrs. old and I'm no genius! Meanwhile it's sad that there are those who've been slandered so very hurtfully and so very unnecessarily....and there's been at least one who's life is ruined for the rest of his/her years...because of the "questionable" circumstances of his accusation. Why his was lumped with others I do not know! Though I do know that it was very damaging to really finding out the truth of the matter. IF THE WORKERS desire to set things right, they'd finance the appropriate "testing" of any questionable parties....since "mental illness" seems to be the "sway" on one side of the CSA or the other! It's a shame that some have suffered when there was NO need to suffer! Just because of the "zeal" to "prosecute" the "perps"!
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Post by juliette on Oct 10, 2008 21:43:13 GMT -5
It has been observed that in general children who are well cared for are less likely to be abused than children who appear to be that no one cares for them in particular. In other words, the more you care for your children, the less LIKELY they are to be abused. Perhaps the abuser knows in advance that you will be angry and he/she fears that reprisal coming from the parent more even than what the law will do. And maybe predators are good at finding victims. Children with low self-esteem, who don't feel empowered to speak up for themselves, who don't know that when they go to their parents for help that they will be heard. Parents who put a system before their children. These are common threads in many of the cases I have heard.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 1:45:22 GMT -5
siwells: I appreciate your comments.They were expressed in such a constructive way. We are right now working on an alternative to a tell it all, National Enquirer approach to the subject of CSA in our church environment.I have been talking to several professional people about CSA. One person made exactly your comment about not being equipped to handle psycho- social ramifications of CSA. The purpose of our endeavor is to teach parents,grandparents,workers, very young children to know what is right and wrong in how others behave around and with them! This whole endeavor begins at the grass roots level of the moral fiber of our homes. There is a lot of knowledge on the INTERNET and from govt. agencies. Our quest is not a witch hunt aimed at the past, but a plan for today and the future .
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 8:54:24 GMT -5
WINGS list is totally private - and can only be viewed by the 7 WINGS group members and REPEAT - it is not STORED ON THE WINGS WEBSITE. Where is it stored in a shoe box? Where? WINGS does NOT give out this list to anyone. WINGS list contains the following categories: convicted? went to trial? alleged? alleged should not be on any list.I can allege anyone abused me for malicious reasons as in our famous case lie The reason for the WINGS list of reports is to provide SAFETY for the children. What children? How does it provide safety.The law can't even do that.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 11, 2008 9:16:17 GMT -5
WINGS list is totally private - and can only be viewed by the 7 WINGS group members and REPEAT - it is not STORED ON THE WINGS WEBSITE. Where is it stored in a shoe box? Where?I know of 4 different lists that are being updated by others, so the list WINGS has is not the only one that is out there. There are others who have been tracking CSA for the last couple of decades. WINGS does NOT give out this list to anyone. WINGS list contains the following categories: convicted? went to trial? alleged? alleged should not be on any list.I can allege anyone abused me for malicious reasons as in our famous case lieYou're right. Anyone can 'allege' anything. When we have people from different places who have no connections to each other that 'allege' the same person did the same thing then it can be relevant, and thus something that may need to be investigated by the authorities. We encourage people to report this to the appropriate authorities. WE do not do the reporting. The reason for the WINGS list of reports is to provide SAFETY for the children. What children? How does it provide safety.The law can't even do that.Hmmm... What children do you think we are talking about? When you get your website online, WINGS will be happy to provide a link to it so that those who are more comfortable reporting to members of their church will be able to do so. We will support your website. We believe that any attempt made to help deal with CSA is important. I am sure that once you get this on line you will also be happy to post links here and on the other boards so everyone will be able to have access to your information. I am encouraged by the fact that you and the workers involved with you are taking this step to acknowledge this issue in your church in the same manner that other churches have done. It represents a great step forward for the workers to be able to openly address this important issue with the members of your church. Scott
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2008 9:19:04 GMT -5
Clearday: First of all since when is it the job of the church to protect children. As a parent and grandparent myself myself I feel it is my responsibility to protect my children. True it is not right that Wings ever came into existence as structured. While it was being organized where were the people who could have recognized the need and do something about it. I have talked to Scott about this and looked into the possibility of a couple of options. 1. We do come up with an educational site about the problem of Abuse. That option is being worked on right now 2. The option that we take over Wings and run it as our own site. The answer to this was no. Even if we do come up with our site Wings will still exist. So therefore it appears to me that Wings has more advantages to some people than just the issue of child abuse. Lin, your first sentence so took my breath away that I almost didn't read the rest of your post: Let me say this as plain and clear as possible. Whenever people decide to associate and congregate on a group basis, the group (in this case the 2x2 church group) must take sound precautions that the consequences of their congregating does not result in illegal activities or the harm or destruction of individuals within the group. If you can't agree with this, we can hardly discuss this issue because we are so far apart. What makes our group even more responsible for protecting its members from the consequences of its gatherings is that we relentlessly promote the idea that salvation can come only if we are gathering together in the manner in which we do. This increases the responsibilities of the church many fold. As I have stated before, I have my doubts that we are capable of self-policing this with any kind of objectivity. Decades of deception for self preservation have preceded us and there is no sign that we as a group are prepared to be open, honest, forthright and prepared to put the safety of our children above the "reputation" of the church. Nothing, nada. I will say though that I want nothing more than to say in the future that I was wrong. The irony is that by denying the importance of this issue and other issues in order to protect the church, those non-actions are actually contributing to the destruction of the church. The church will only survive if it humbles itself, admits error, pledges to do what is right, and then takes positive steps to do so. I'm prepared to admit my past errors, is there anyone else in the church who will do so with me? WINGS people aren't stupid. They know the value of having a couple of well connected elders or workers on board. At the same time, if they are not comfortable that F&Ws are not just getting on board for political reasons, they would be right to keep their board as it is. In the meantime, an F&W site would be a good way to go, as well as sites on other important issues.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 9:23:45 GMT -5
What political reasons would you suggest would come into play? You think Wings is not political? First of all there is nothing to police. We have no authority to police.We have plenty of good laws in every state,and they are the people to determine the guilt and the consequences. Not some advocacy group. The F&W are not stupid either and there is all the help and knowledge amongst the F&W to address this problem.
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Post by Frank on Oct 11, 2008 10:03:28 GMT -5
It sure is enlightening to watch these brainwashed 2x2s as they frantically wield their doublespeak swords, casting aside core morality for the cause of protecting their little cult.
This is yet another one of those things that gives 2x2ism the cult label.
Most decent people would do anything in their power to protect a child. They'd turn in a friend, relative, co-worker, or pastor. They'd change day-cares, schools, or churches. They'd even move if circumstances required it.
On the other hand, the brainwashed members of a cult pay lip service to protecting children but are really unwilling to do anything that threatens the perceived image and culture of their cult.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 12:39:39 GMT -5
Frank: I would think on a matter this serious, and is a problem that is everywhere. You'd have sense enough not to go into your tirades. It's not a subject where hatreds and bias have place
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Post by Frank on Oct 11, 2008 13:15:12 GMT -5
It would be nice but, based on your record here, I don't think it's likely. It is serious. This is why I said what I said. It is everywhere, it needs to be dealt with everywhere, your cult is no exception to this everywhere, and your attempts at excusing your cult from this everywhere has made your mindset obvious. I won't be lectured on sense from a brainwashed automaton. Tirades isn't my style. I prefer discussion. By the way, on the subject of tirades, you have 40 posts in this thread; This is my second. One wouldn't think so but then here you are.
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Post by harpsichord on Oct 11, 2008 13:18:58 GMT -5
So did all the people involved with this Michigan thing to back to meetings with every thing OK?---I asked this before and I include those accused, family broken apart the accusers --- All of them. I want to know if they really are one big happy family?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Oct 11, 2008 13:55:44 GMT -5
And maybe predators are good at finding victims. Children with low self-esteem, who don't feel empowered to speak up for themselves, who don't know that when they go to their parents for help that they will be heard. Parents who put a system before their children. These are common threads in many of the cases I have heard. It's interesting to take an objective and honest look at the statistical facts - the percentages in which parents, relatives, unmarried partners of parent, foster parents, and legal guardians were the perpetrators of CSA. Doing this should help everyone concentrate effort where it might actually have the greatest effect. Percentages of parents, relatives, unmarried partners of parent, foster parents, and legal guardians as perpetrators of CSA; 2000 65.7% 2001 68.2% 2002 62.2% 2003 63.5% 2004 63.9% 2005 61.7% 2006 61.4% In contrast the percentages of "friends and neighbors" as CSA perpetrators was; 2000 N/A 2001 N/A 2002 N/A 2003 2.4% 2004 2.7% 2005 4.8% 2006 4.3% In order to solve a problem like CSA one must first have a clear view of what the problem actually is and in this case it does not look like a "group" problem to me - it looks like an individual problem. Blaming "the group" looks like a way of shifting responsibilities and blame away from the individuals most directly responsible for the problem. Workers, elders, and parents with CSA training could go a long way in helping with the biggest part of the CSA problem -->> the parents, relatives, unmarried partners of parent, foster parents, and legal guardians of the victims. Interesting that the CSA offender focus is nearly continually on the workers, no-one seems to realise who is mainly at fault, why is that? Holding that viewpoint is not only being unfair to ones self, it is being extremely unfair to the victims. My wife and I took the MinistrySafe CSA training, how many of you have? I wonder if more workers have taken that type of training than TMB members. Frank, Clearday, Juliette, ilylo, Scott, Cherie, et al, have you taken training like that? Do you have the certificate to prove it? If not why not? Lets draw a line right here and now and from this point on, move forward. Click -->> MinistrySafe <<Click -->> Child Lures Prevention - Resources For Faith-Based Organizations <<Click -->> "Darkness to Light" website. <<If anyone here has any interest in taking training like this please let me know as we are willing to buy blocks of training and make it available at no cost to any who wish to go through it. There is printed material available too, if anyone has any interest in that instead please let me know. thanks and take care, Jesse ~ reference material; 2000 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm00/table4_4.htm2001 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm01/table4_3.htm2002 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm02/table5_3.htm2003 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm03/table5_3.htm2004 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm04/table5_4.htm2005 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm05/table3_17.htm2006 -> www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm06/table3_19.htm
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Post by ronhall on Oct 11, 2008 14:07:16 GMT -5
I think all should back off and positively support lin in doing what is in his heart to do.
It will take a special person to gain the confidence of the F&W. To accomplish this mission effectively, confidence will be needed from the bottom to the top. To do this I'm sure he has his work cut out.
I, like others have stated, am sad to have learned about these cases and saddened more to learn how they have been handled in the past. The time is now that there should be an effective, consistent and comprehensive method put in place when this type of activity might surface.
I would think that just having the knowledge that every one in the fellowship from the least of the saints to the greatest of the overseers is aware and watching, would be a powerful deterrent in itself. It shouldn't be this way, of course; the knowledge that God watches from on high should be deterrent enough!
On another note -- while it may seem that some on this forum are intent on bringing the F&W fellowship down, where legitimate issues are thoughtfully presented by someone outside the fellowship, it is wise to address them quickly and effectively. Often these are issues that cannot be effectively identified, promoted and corrected within the fellowship. While some may consider this a fault of the fellowship, all groups from governments to corporations need to be thoroughly audited regularly.
So help lin get a handle on this and when it hits the street, then is the time to get involved in constructive criticism.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 14:32:57 GMT -5
ronhall : Thanks for your support. I do want to make it clear though I am not the only one involved with this effort.We have several good people involved as well as workers. We have professional people involved that are trained and capable of doing the job.
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Post by Frank on Oct 11, 2008 18:59:42 GMT -5
It's interesting to take an objective and honest look at the statistical facts - the percentages in which parents, relatives, unmarried partners of parent, foster parents, and legal guardians were the perpetrators of CSA. Doing this should help everyone concentrate effort where it might actually have the greatest effect. Percentages of parents, relatives, unmarried partners of parent, foster parents, and legal guardians as perpetrators of CSA; 2000 65.7% 2001 68.2% 2002 62.2% 2003 63.5% 2004 63.9% 2005 61.7% 2006 61.4% In contrast the percentages of "friends and neighbors" as CSA perpetrators was; 2000 N/A 2001 N/A 2002 N/A 2003 2.4% 2004 2.7% 2005 4.8% 2006 4.3% It sure is enlightening to watch these brainwashed 2x2s as they frantically abuse statistics to cast aside core morality for the cause of protecting their little cult. It's hard to comprehend the willingness of certain people to excuse a "small enough" percentage as collateral damage for the sake of protecting the perceived image and culture of their cult. At times it seems that these 2x2s are determined to hold onto their cult label. It is telling of Jesse Lackman's motives that, in addition to being selective of the data he put in his post, he sloppily manipulated it prior to posting it. Take the 2006 data for example.
1) He mentioned 61.4% + 4.3% = 65.7% of the victims, omitting 34.3% of the victims including the categories of "other" and "unknown or missing" which not only collectively represent 31.3% of victims but also could conceivably include church membership or, in 2x2-speak, friends and workers. 2) He claimed that parents (26.2%), other relatives (29.1%), unmarried partners of a parent (6.1%), foster parents (0.3%), and legal guardians (0.1%) collectively represent 61.4%. This is wrong, as 26.2% + 29.1% + 6.1% + 0.3% + 0.1% = 61.8%. 3) He claimed that the category "friends or neighbors" represents 4.3% but the <source>, presents this figure as 4.4%.Parent | 26.2% | | Other Relative | 29.1% | | Foster Parent | 0.3% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it in his math. | Residential Facility Staff | 0.3% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it. | Child Daycare Provider | 1.8% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it. | Unmarried Partner of Parent | 6.1% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it. | Legal Guardian | 0.1% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it in his math. | Other Professionals | 0.5% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it. | Friends or Neighbors | 4.4% | Jesse Lackman reported 4.3%. | Other | 24.4% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it. | Unknown or Missing | 6.9% | This could include 2x2 membership but Jesse Lackman ignored it. | Total = | 100% | |
Jesse Lackman preaches looking at the data in an objective and honest manner but he sure doesn't practice it. His case for ignoring a so-called minority of victims for the sake of protecting the perceived image and culture of the 2x2 cult was dubious from the start but once the numbers show that the so-called minority of victims is anything but a minority, his claims become even more laughable. This is yet another example of the way some 2x2s pay lip service to a principle to which they do not adhere.Jesse Lackman, you're blurring the line between two separate problems. Problem #1 is child sexual abuse. This is a problem with individuals. Problem #2 is 2x2ism as a whole refuses to openly and honestly acknowledge, address, confront, and appropriately respond to child sexual abuse. This is a problem with the group. Your deliberate blending of these two problems does not escape notice. Let us know what the overseers says when you suggest this to each of them. It is likely that this has a lot to do with the fact that many, if not most, 2x2s will not question the workers. The errant beliefs and abhorrent conduct of many workers has gone unquestioned and unchecked for decades. This includes sexual misconduct. Furthermore, CSA offenders among 2x2 workers is a more complicated matter than that of CSA offenders among the 2x2 saints. For example, the frequency of exposure means that the number of potential victims of a 2x2 worker is far greater than that of an average 2x2 saint. Problem #1: Those at fault are the individuals. Problem #2: Those at fault are the group as a whole. As I said before, there are two distinct problems. If you solve either of the two problems, the other goes away. You seem to think that it's your job to dictate not only which of the two problems should be solved but also the manner in which the solution should be executed. Good for you. This is an irrelevant and diversionary tactic, as would be me asking you how many 2x2 workers have taken the training. Wonder all you want. It doesn't matter. As for me, though it's not relevant, no. Now it's my turn: Jesse Lackman, have you considered taking any classes in mathematics, specifically those focusing on the objective interpretation and analysis of statistics? Other than some 2x2s, I can't think of very many people who require a class to comprehend the outlandish concept that child sexual abuse is wrong, regardless of who is doing it. First, I'm not a 2x2 and second, I have enough understanding of this issue and adequate reasoning skills to grasp the nature of the subject when it comes up. If you're serious about this and really want to do some good with it then take this message to your next few 2x2 conventions. Post it in the meeting, dining, and sleeping areas. Make it part of testimony time. Spread the word.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 19:05:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice Frank. That was very thoughtful.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 19:21:07 GMT -5
Seems we get bashed because we do nothing. We start and get bashed anyway.
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Post by degem on Oct 11, 2008 19:29:28 GMT -5
Lin and to the others who are involved in the effort to set up this website-you have my support. Yes you are right lin, "you're danged if you do and danged if you don't."
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Post by Frank on Oct 11, 2008 19:36:18 GMT -5
Seems we get bashed because we do nothing. We start and get bashed anyway. Lin and to the others who are involved in the effort to set up this website-you have my support. Yes you are right lin, "you're danged if you do and danged if you don't." I haven't noticed anyone bashing lin for making CSA an open issue among the 2x2s. Where are you seeing this?
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 19:38:26 GMT -5
Not used to your method of discussion Frank. I apologize.
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Post by degem on Oct 11, 2008 19:38:38 GMT -5
And where are you seeing where I use the word "bashing"? I dont see it
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 11, 2008 20:18:54 GMT -5
Howdy, From Jesse, My wife and I took the MinistrySafe CSA training, how many of you have? I wonder if more workers have taken that type of training than TMB members. Frank, Clearday, Juliette, ilylo, Scott, Cherie, et al, have you taken training like that? Do you have the certificate to prove it? If not why not?That's great that you are willing to purchase blocks of training for others to take advantage of this training Jesse!! I personally have not taken it, but have looked at the different courses that are offered out there. Some are relatively inexpensive, and others are VERY spendy! As I have mentioned before, Lyle Schober has offered CSA on line training courses to all members of his staff, and also to some other workers who were interested in taking the training. I have been impressed with his actions concerning this, and hope that more overseers see fit to do the same for their fields. From ronhall: I would think that just having the knowledge that every one in the fellowship from the least of the saints to the greatest of the overseers is aware and watching, would be a powerful deterrent in itself. It shouldn't be this way, of course; the knowledge that God watches from on high should be deterrent enough!I agree with you. the knowledge that everyone is looking out for the well being of the children will be a great deterrent to those who may otherwise take advantage of others. So help lin get a handle on this and when it hits the street, then is the time to get involved in constructive criticism.I agree. I feel that everyone who knows that lin is working on this should encourage their workers to become involved and support lin in this issue. The more people who actively support his efforts, the more apt that this will be accomplished. I furnished lin with the names of all the overseers that have been involved recently in dealing with CSA issues, and hope that they each will lend their support to his effort to get a we site established. As previously stated, WINGS will be more than willing to provide a link to this new web site, with an appropriate statement explaining what it is there for. We are in full support of his efforts at starting up this web site dedicated to dealing with the issues surrounding CSA in the truth fellowship. From lin, Seems we get bashed because we do nothing. We start and get bashed anyway.I find this statement hilarious ;D Join the crowd my friend lin!!!! I sure have felt 'bashed' personally by quite a few people..... Maybe even by you??? Scott
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 20:53:55 GMT -5
Maybe We could have a pity party Ha!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Oct 11, 2008 21:30:09 GMT -5
Scott, thanks.
~
Frank, sorry about the 2006 percentage errors.
take care,
Jesse
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