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Post by ozelaine on Aug 21, 2006 18:01:05 GMT -5
Howard wrote in a previous thread:
My request was "Could you clarify some of the annoying doing tasks that I need to perform to gain my salvation."
Pruebert replied:
Here are some of the doing things. I did a bit of cut and past from Prue's list on our web site:
being obedient to the faith. Acts 6:7 obeying those who have the rule over you. Hebrews 13:7 moderation in all things. Phillipians 4:5 dressing moderately. Timothy 2:8-10 being sober. 1 Thessalonians 5:6 abstaining from earthly pleasures. Hebrews 11:25 not being conformed to this world. Romans 12:2 love nothing of this world. 1 John 2:15 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves. Hebrews 10:25 keeps a tight rein on the tongue. James 1:26 denying worldly lusts. Titus 2:12 showing humility. Phillipians 2:3
Pruebert,
Would you agree that these things were written to already saved NT people? These are things written to encourage those who were believers, not written for those who were lost.
I believe this thinking is perhaps at the centre of the false doctrine of many churches/sects/cults in that belief in salvation being a gift is compromised by belief in having to perform or “do” things to be saved. As Howard has asked how many must be performed and what if one or two are left out. Didn't Christ come to save the lost, so that through his perfect life righteousness might be credited to believers accounts and by His death their sin removed?
If salvation is a gift how then is it possible to perform for that gift?
"All men naturally feel that they should earn their salvation, and a system which makes some provision in that regard readily appeals to them. But the apostle Paul lays the axe to such reasoning when he says, '...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law' (Galatians 3:21)." "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (Galatians 6:14).
"...they have a zeal of God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE. For they being IGNORANT OF GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the Righteousness of God..." (Romans 10:2,3)
"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for IT is the power of God unto salvation...For THEREIN is the Righteousness of God revealed..." (Romans 1:16,17)
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is THE POWER OF GOD" (1 Corinthians 1:18)
I'm interested in your response.
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Post by jxr on Aug 22, 2006 7:50:59 GMT -5
Interesting to note that none of these imperatives are directly from Jesus. Many of them are from that ex-Pharisee named Paul.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 8:15:47 GMT -5
jxr - re "that ex-Pharisee named Paul" I was genuinely shocked to read such a thing, even on this board. Don't you have faith in your bible?
These verses are for us all.
I don't believe salvation is earned. This is merely trivialising our own sin.
What is in the bible is for all humanity, no?
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Post by jxr on Aug 22, 2006 8:24:27 GMT -5
I have faith in my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Why should I need faith in anything else, which, by definition is the work of man?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 8:31:50 GMT -5
What are you trying to say JXR? That Paul was just a man, and Jesus was not? Paul gave expression to Jesus. Jesus sent Paul out into the world in the same ministry as he sent His disciples.
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Post by jxr on Aug 22, 2006 8:48:23 GMT -5
What are you trying to say JXR? That Paul was just a man, and Jesus was not? Paul gave expression to Jesus. Jesus sent Paul out into the world in the same ministry as he sent His disciples. As far as I know, Jesus never met Paul
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 8:56:37 GMT -5
JXR - Paul was the last to meet Jesus in the NT. That was on the way to Damascus. Paul was Jesus' "chosen vessel." It is becoming fashionable to separate Paul from the Jesus, and the usual route is via James, ie that James was closer to what the mind of Jesus than Paul. Don't believe it.
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Post by junia on Aug 22, 2006 9:02:34 GMT -5
I'm interested in your response. I'm interested in prue/bert's response too. How about it prue/bert?
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Post by jxr on Aug 22, 2006 9:06:25 GMT -5
JXR - Paul was the last to meet Jesus in the NT. That was on the way to Damascus. Paul was Jesus' "chosen vessel." It is becoming fashionable to separate Paul from the Jesus, and the usual route is via James, ie that James was closer to what the mind of Jesus than Paul. Don't believe it. Why do you believe the validity of Paul's revelation any more than Joseph Smith's?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 9:14:57 GMT -5
Would you agree that these things were written to already saved NT people? These are things written to encourage those who were believers, not written for those who were lost.
These things are written for us all
I believe this thinking is perhaps at the centre of the false doctrine of many churches/sects/cults in that belief in salvation being a gift is compromised by belief in having to perform or “do” things to be saved.
A gift, yes, but a gift not given without repentance and obedience
As Howard has asked how many must be performed and what if one or two are left out. Didn't Christ come to save the lost, so that through his perfect life righteousness might be credited to believers accounts and by His death their sin removed?
If salvation is a gift how then is it possible to perform for that gift?
"All men naturally feel that they should earn their salvation, and a system which makes some provision in that regard readily appeals to them. But the apostle Paul lays the axe to such reasoning when he says, '...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law' (Galatians 3:21)." "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (Galatians 6:14).
Yes, the law cannot bring us to God. And we do not boast for other in what Christ has done
"...they have a zeal of God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE. For they being IGNORANT OF GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the Righteousness of God..." (Romans 10:2,3)
This is Paul's response to the Law. We do not live under Law
"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for IT is the power of God unto salvation...For THEREIN is the Righteousness of God revealed..." (Romans 1:16,17)
Correct
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is THE POWER OF GOD" (1 Corinthians 1:18)
And this preaching, as Paul showed, came through a ministry, freely given and freely received, from preachers who were not hired, delivered with grace, rejecting the wisdom of this world, demonstrating no charisma and laying out the standards of behaviour acceptable to God.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 10:08:26 GMT -5
Bert wrote... "A gift, yes, but a gift not given without repentance and obedience"
That would make salvation a reward, not a gift.
Karl
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 10:14:18 GMT -5
bit like mercy being when we dont get what we deserve ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 10:34:27 GMT -5
Mercy is also granted/gifted just as the Bible says salvation is.
Karl
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Aug 22, 2006 12:25:54 GMT -5
jxr wrote... "As far as I know, Jesus never met Paul "
This is tantamount to saying that Jesus is not God. Who did Paul meet when he said "Who are you Lord?" ?
Was this not Jesus?
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Post by eurp on Aug 22, 2006 12:27:31 GMT -5
"That would make salvation a reward, not a gift."
If I need do absolutely nothing to receive salvation, then what decides who gets saved and who not?
Do people, who have no thought of religion, no thoughts of God, going about their daily business suddenly get saved?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 12:36:09 GMT -5
God decides. Isn't that what judgment is, decision making?
Karl
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 13:13:13 GMT -5
Nate-
I'm not going to do this with you again, you take verses out of context, often won't answer questions asked of you, etc. You make a proof text verse quilt....
In the end who is the Judge Nathan?
Karl
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Post by predestination on Aug 22, 2006 14:33:46 GMT -5
.........In the end God will be the Judge. God decides where people will spent for ALL eternity and that decision hinges on whether people have made their choices to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior or not. Collossians 1:27 Christ in you, the hope of glory. God has already decided.
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Post by eurp on Aug 22, 2006 14:39:47 GMT -5
I don't want to get into the middle of a fight between Nathan9 and lacpastor, just would like to know.
As I see it you are saying that God decides. That seems reassonable.
But the second part of the question went unanswered. To repeat it..
"Do people, who have no thought of religion, no thoughts of God, going about their daily business suddenly get saved? "
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Post by studylearning on Aug 22, 2006 16:52:59 GMT -5
I don't want to get into the middle of a fight between Nathan9 and lacpastor, just would like to know. As I see it you are saying that God decides. That seems reassonable. But the second part of the question went unanswered. To repeat it.. "Do people, who have no thought of religion, no thoughts of God, going about their daily business suddenly get saved? " Well maybe so. NOUN: SALAVATION
1. Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil. 2. A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance. Christianity 3. Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption. 4, The agent or means that brings about such deliverance. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English savacioun, from Old French sauvacion, from Late Latin salvti , salvtin-, from salvtus, past participle of salvre, to save ; see salvage
NOUN: SALVAGE
1. The rescue of a ship, its crew, or its cargo from fire or shipwreck. 2. The ship, crew, or cargo so rescued. 3. Compensation given to those who voluntarily aid in such a rescue.
1. The act of saving imperiled property from loss. 2. The property so saved. 3. Something saved from destruction or waste and put to further use.So you see that in a sense (one could be junk on its last leg or on the death bed and still receive Salvation.
It is kind of like you have an old car which is all rusted and broken down, does not run, and has all broken windows and flat tires. You would want to junk it out as its worth is usless to you. However, a collector or fixer-upper just might see things different. Jesus is the Master Builder. He loves the broken down and wasted. You cannot judge what God will do with anyone, even in the very end.When I think of salvation I keep in mind the word salvage-meaning (restore junk to something good) You/we/or others might be inclined to think some are just lost but that might be the biggest mistake that we make.
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Post by studylearning on Aug 22, 2006 16:59:37 GMT -5
For Nathan.
I am curious. Please tell me straight foward if you believe that people find salvation in other fellowships outside of the Friends and Workers fellowship?
Another question if I may. Do the F&W believe you are not of the right spirit and unwilling? I know this is personel but you speak openly about Trinity which is one of the things that I was rebuked for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 17:07:49 GMT -5
I don't want to get into the middle of a fight between Nathan9 and lacpastor, just would like to know. As I see it you are saying that God decides. That seems reassonable. But the second part of the question went unanswered. To repeat it.. "Do people, who have no thought of religion, no thoughts of God, going about their daily business suddenly get saved? " Some do because... Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. , please read this verse in it's context.Also Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. and... Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
God saves the lost, as He decides. Karl
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 17:18:18 GMT -5
Why do you need to know?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 17:57:38 GMT -5
I guess that you just live to please God, Nate- without looking for a reward, in your belief, salvation, at the end.
Karl
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 18:58:14 GMT -5
"Why, should anyone lives to please God when he/she doesn't KNOW he/she are the chosen ones already?"
Because He is God?
Karl
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Post by Jessi on Aug 22, 2006 21:30:14 GMT -5
Nathan: If they would like to know, they could pray and ask God to reveal it to them. Do you think a mere man can tell you if you are ELECT? II Tim 2:19
According to James 2:18, Christ's people will live to please God and be His witnesses on the earth BECAUSE they are saved, since WORKS FOLLOW FAITH.
Tests for examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith (II Cor 13:5) is Gal 5:22, Jn 14:15, Matt 7:20 . . .
Peace in the Lord, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Aug 22, 2006 21:38:02 GMT -5
I don't want to get into the middle of a fight between Nathan9 and lacpastor, just would like to know. As I see it you are saying that God decides. That seems reassonable. But the second part of the question went unanswered. To repeat it.. "Do people, who have no thought of religion, no thoughts of God, going about their daily business suddenly get saved? " How could a human being answer this? A mere man could not know if a person has no thoughts of religion or God. Only God knows these things, according to the Holy Word. Man looks on appearances, but the Lord looks on the heart (I Sam 16:7). Peace in the Lord, Jessi
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Post by ozelaine on Aug 23, 2006 1:04:10 GMT -5
1) If God already decided who are SAVED then what was purpose of Jesus preaching about REPENTANCE! from sins when he said to the multitudes, " Repent! ye and BELIEVE in the Gospel."
What's the purpose of repentance from Sins and believing in Jesus' Gospel as the Savior if God already KNEW who are SAVED?
The Gospel still works in the same way Nathan, only it's God who makes the first move and works in those whom He has chosen. You will find this throughout scripture. Why is it so hard for you to believe what the Bible really says?
"NONE can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him..." (Jn. 6:44). In other words, no man can will to come before the Father causes the man to come. If God had not elected some to come no man would have ever come to Him. IT IS WHOMSOEVER GOD WILLS TO COME THAT WILL COME, FOR NO OTHER CAN COME.
Those who believe that election shuts out many from heaven fail to realise, or have conveniently forgotten about, man’s sinful nature being that which shuts a man out of heaven. Election based on mercy and grace is the only thing that opens Heaven’s Gate to an undeserving sinner.
Was God under an obligation to save even one man? Would there have been any injustice had God left us all in our sin and under His wrath?
Man does not choose life, for he cannot, IT IS CHOSEN FOR, AND GIVEN TO, HIM by a merciful God: "...the Son quickeneth whom He will" (Jn. 5:21 cf. Matt. 11:27).
If you could choose God from a position of spiritual deadness then you could do what no other man has ever done.
Election is part of the Gospel and how God saves. You can believe it or reject it. If you have believed another Gospel Nathan then you are still lost.
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