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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 22:04:16 GMT -5
to mr.witnesses - i dont know anything about mr.irvine - it is not that you are saying our ministry is not the ministry mentioned in the bible - you are all saying there is no ministry in the bible -
how many labourers - ? paul was with barnabas paul went out with silas paul preached with timothy and in one place timothy joins paul and barnabas but it was usually two - sometimes i have seen three workers and sometimes i have seen just one - but usually two are together as Jesus showed - love prue
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Post by a believer on Aug 23, 2006 22:07:48 GMT -5
NAthan the workers are not itinerant ministers. They have a fixed abode....they are not homeless itinerant minsters just because they do not own the homes and only stay a year or two in each place does not make them itinerant.
Missionaries are far more itinerant than the workers.
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Post by a believer on Aug 23, 2006 22:12:25 GMT -5
There has been a lot written about William Irvine so how can you say you don't know anything about him? His letters are on the websites for you to read the kind of man he was. It is important that you read about who started your group to determine if it was based on truth or not? Your group is founded on his interpretation of scripture.
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Post by to Prue on Aug 23, 2006 22:23:45 GMT -5
RE the witnessess/ministry...
I am saying how a person preaches the Gospel is nothing to do with salvation, it is what they preach is important. It is not important if I live in a blue house or red house..... The outward trimings are nothing to do with salvation..The same with a ministry, it is not important what coating it has as our works do not save, but salvation is in the message of Jesus, not what color coating is on the outside.
The words that come out of my mouth are important not whether I go with someone else, own a house or anything else. We need people to preach the Gospel but whether we live in a house, or tent, go in pairs or alone, live with others or alone, is nothing to do with salvation. People have tried self sacrifice and self denial in the name of God for centuries but does that make them closer to God? No it is just man's way of trying to reach God through their own sacrifice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 22:32:00 GMT -5
hi to to-prue - if we had hired preachers and all exes on the internet here had preachers going out by twos you would call us hypocrits and not being biblical - no? we believe that all aspects of the gospel are important just as Jesus did when he was so particular Bert tells sometimes about so called men of God who wore hair shirts to show they were suffering - that is so stupid - but it shows we can suffer outside the will of God without it doing anything for us i do not read anything about irvine after i heard of some of his strange ideas prue
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Post by studylearning on Aug 24, 2006 9:08:44 GMT -5
I believe many readers on this message board and myself would like to Know if God has decided us to be SAVED or not. This is a very important thing we need to know if we are SAVED or not wouldn't you say, Karl? How can we live to please God and be His Witnesses on the earth when we don't know If we are His chosen ones before the foundation of the world. Within the same line of questions I have asked you the following. For Nathan. I am curious. Please tell me straight foward if you believe that people find salvation in other fellowships outside of the Friends and Workers fellowship? Another question if I may. Do the F&W believe you are not of the right spirit and unwilling because you teach things counter to many of their beliefs, such as (Trinity)?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2006 19:22:40 GMT -5
To StudyLearning. This Trinity business. I have mentioned three trinities on this TMB, taken from John's epistle. Which trinity are you referring to?
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Post by studylearning on Aug 24, 2006 21:04:15 GMT -5
To StudyLearning. This Trinity business. I have mentioned three trinities on this TMB, taken from John's epistle. Which trinity are you referring to? Bert, are you Nathan? I think I was asking Nathan a question which only Nathan can answer if he so chooses. As to "This Trinity Business", you know very well what is "Trinity". I am not going to engage you in stupid discussions which lead no place. From a sanctioned Bible Dictionary because it was given to me by a Worker. The Revell bible Dictionary, Fleming H. Revell Company. ISBN 0-8007-1594-2
TRINITYThe Christian doctrine that God exists as three co-equal persons--Father,Son, and Holy SpiritNow will you please let Nathan answer the question if he so desires.
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Post by Clear answer on Aug 25, 2006 19:43:31 GMT -5
1) I am curious. Please tell me straight foward if you believe that people find salvation in other fellowships outside of the Friends and Workers fellowship?
~~~ Nathan9: Good question. Only God knows and only He can answer your question. I was a God fearing person or a Christian in my heart before I met the workers. Only God or Jesus who saves people. The workers can't SAVE anyone. The workers can only point others to follow Jesus as their Savior,
Do you call that a straight forward answer? Even though you may think you have fashioned a sufficiently evasive answer, you've actually clearly answered "No". You think you have safely played the "I can't say because God is the judge" card. Let me ask you the question this way then: do you believe that people find salvation in the Friends and Workers fellowship? Are you going to say "yes" or are you going to play the "I can't say because God is the judge" card again.
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Post by Clear answer on Aug 25, 2006 20:08:41 GMT -5
Let's us turn the table around... Do you believe that people find Salvation in the 2x2s church? What's your answer be.
Nathan, You can't answer the question can you? Why?
You think I can't answer the question? Wrong. I can say "yes". Why? Because I believe ppl are saved on a personal level, regardless of denominational or organizational affiliation. You can't answer the question clearly, because you blindly associate a persons denominational/organizational affiliation with their salvation. In others words: F&Ws = yes. Non F&Ws = no. Now if you can just admit it. You may as well because everyone can see it.
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Post by unnate on Aug 25, 2006 21:14:06 GMT -5
well at least now we know that nate doesn't believe that non-2x2s can be saved. Unless of course he cares to state plainly otherwise without all that nonsense doubletalk at which he excels.
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Post by unnate on Aug 25, 2006 21:22:12 GMT -5
frankly nate (I'm typing this before you get a chance to shoot me down) it doesn't matter who I am or what church I attend or why this is coming from an unregistered nickname.
With the world as your witness, you dodged the original question.
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Post by junia on Aug 25, 2006 21:33:06 GMT -5
With the world as your witness, you dodged the original question. I'm guessing you haven't participated here very long. A straight answer from Nate is the exception. Cheers!
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Post by unnate on Aug 25, 2006 21:42:26 GMT -5
actually junia, I have. nate's spin is no surprise to me at all, but even frauds like him deserve to be reminded that we aren't fooled by his antics.
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Post by studylearning on Aug 25, 2006 22:22:22 GMT -5
I believe many readers on this message board and myself would like to Know if God has decided us to be SAVED or not. This is a very important thing we need to know if we are SAVED or not wouldn't you say, Karl? How can we live to please God and be His Witnesses on the earth when we don't know If we are His chosen ones before the foundation of the world. For Nathan from Studylearning. 1) I am curious. Please tell me straight forward if you believe that people find salvation in other fellowships outside of the Friends and Workers fellowship? ~~~ Nathan9: Good question. Only God knows and only He can answer your question. I was a God fearing person or a Christian in my heart before I met the workers. Only God or Jesus who saves people. The workers can't SAVE anyone. The workers can only point others to follow Jesus as their Savior, 2) Another question if I may. Do the F&W believe you are not of the right spirit and unwilling because you teach things counter to many of their beliefs, such as (Trinity)? ~~~~ Nathan9: When the workers and the friends take the time to study the scriptures they will see and understand the Trinity= The Father, Yahweh/Jesus, and Holy Spirit is God. The word "God" does not refer ONLY! to the Father! because the word "God" is plural in original Hebrew "Elohim," whereas YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus) was the personal name by which God was known to Israelites in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ claimed to be the I AM that I AM (Yahweh) the Almighty God who was known to Israelites in the Old Testament. In the Scripture where "God/Elohim" where plurality 1) the Father 2) Yahweh/Jesus 3) the Holy Spirit and these three Persons are the Godhead. These three Persons of all the same substance, Co-equal, Co-existence, and Co-eternal. (John 1:1-3) ~~~ Studylearning..... ALL we can do is to teach what God has revealed to us.... it is up to God to reveal His truth to people. I am so happy that you have come to an understanding on the Trinity. It is an AWESOME! revelation and experience when people understand the Father, Yahweh/Jesus and Holy Spirit=Godhead. Thank you for the answer Nathan. I would have liked to see a more definitive answer to the first question. I would like to tell you that it is not me who followed up with questions #1. I do agree with the argument presented. As you have probably read in some of my posts I just recently have been put to the test by workers in my area because I have affirmed that people can have salvation in other fellowships. The worker said "surely you can't believe that one has salvation in other churches". My answer is yes why would you not?So clearly in the context of this question I am going to bring forth the following verse again. John 3 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
So you, as do the workers say it is in Gods hand. I agree it is all in Gods hand. Does that mean we cannot see the works thereof. Simply stated we do not know when or where the Holy Spirit will move on a soul. We can see the results. If one as a member of the F&W, observes this in others outside of the fellowship, is it not wrong to deny it. I will say to your question that yes there is Salvation within the F&W fellowship. This is not the issue. I also see Salvation in others outside of the fellowship. This is the issue--The issue is that certain ones take privilege to teach and tell others that they are wrong to believe others have salvation outside of the F&W. I hope you have looked up the definition of Blasphemy in the back of the KJV bible. As I have noted in other posts, telling people that they should not believe their witness could lead to blasphemy in the denial of the works of the Holy Spirit. Is that really what a servant of God should be doing? So then in the fullness of understanding Gods wonderful Grace it would be nice of you to affirm if you believe that others could be saved outside of the F&W fellowship. Would it be so hard to say "I have no reason to not believe that others find salvation outside of the fellowship of F&W's" I would ask you to think about this a little. Gods hand touches in the least likely places and times. Unknown servants walk in the least likely places.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 25, 2006 22:29:12 GMT -5
Would it be so hard to say "I have no reason to not believe that others find salvation outside of the fellowship of F&W's" I would ask you to think about this a little. Gods hand touches in the least likely places and times. Unknown servants walk in the least likely places. Yes, that is very difficult for nathan to state. The most likely reply will be "attending the meetings with the friends and workers will not save you. Only believing in Jesus can save you."
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Post by studylearning on Aug 25, 2006 22:39:07 GMT -5
Would it be so hard to say "I have no reason to not believe that others find salvation outside of the fellowship of F&W's" I would ask you to think about this a little. Gods hand touches in the least likely places and times. Unknown servants walk in the least likely places. Yes, that is very difficult for nathan to state. The most likely reply will be "attending the meetings with the friends and workers will not save you. Only believing in Jesus can save you." Well Greg, then I would see no problem in going the next step to my statement. It is saying the same thing. If Nathan says "Only Believing in Jesus being our Lord and Saviour can save", then he admits what I am saying with a minor caveat. Or Major caveat depending how you look at it. That is "I cannot affirm what I know in clear words because it is not taught in the 2x2 fellowship". I hope he is learning from the many voices.
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Post by Musings on Aug 25, 2006 22:58:44 GMT -5
Really appreciated this reference and this thread on a whole.
John 3
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
============== I was also thinking of another chapter- John 9 where the Pharisees refused to believe/accept the testimony of the man born blind. They believed Jesus's work in another's life had to be approved by them to be considered valid. In fact in this chapter they did everything they knew how to encourage the man borned blind to deny his witness of Christ because THEY had not accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
They totally rejected/discounted the man's experience with Jesus. Incredibly it is the same attitude predominantly expressed/believed? among the F&Ws
I truly believe GOD is separating out His people to realise that salvation is an individual matter. It is not tied to a group, organization, or a name (other than Christ's). And when we have that settled than nothing and no-one can shake our faith.
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Post by unnate on Aug 26, 2006 1:16:00 GMT -5
actually junia, I have. nate's spin is no surprise to me at all, but even frauds like him deserve to be reminded that we aren't fooled by his antics. no names calling, please.... truth hurts, eh?
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Post by unnate on Aug 26, 2006 1:18:28 GMT -5
frankly nate (I'm typing this before you get a chance to shoot me down) it doesn't matter who I am or what church I attend or why this is coming from an unregistered nickname. With the world as your witness, you dodged the original question. just to remind you of the fraud that you are, nate
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Post by Gene on Aug 26, 2006 3:28:47 GMT -5
For Nathan from Studylearning. 1) I am curious. Please tell me straight foward if you believe that people find salvation in other fellowships outside of the Friends and Workers fellowship? ~~~ Nathan9: Good question...<snip>.. I was a God fearing person or a Christian in my heart before I met the workers... That's pretty clear to me. Nathan believes that people can be Christians without meeting the workers.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 26, 2006 4:00:18 GMT -5
That's pretty clear to me. Nathan believes that people can be Christians without meeting the workers. Christians lacking a full or fuller revelation. Christians that are worldly. Christians that are first stage prodigal. Christians that very well might be told (in Nathan's opinion - please tell us if different, nathan) by Jesus, "depart from me, I never knew you." Christian, but in no way as "christian" as one can be in the workers' church.
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Post by Workers Church huh on Aug 26, 2006 7:07:36 GMT -5
Is Tom Cruise a Christian? He certainly has a message to give to the world. Whatever his message is, its certainly not in his lifestyle, nor from the bible. But... don't all ways lead to God? Do we judge people on their works? That's only the workers way, isn't it? Certainly no-one on this TMB is prepared to draw lines about what is, and what is not, acceptable to God. So my guess is that everybody is a Christian, even if they are not.
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