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Post by hi on Jan 25, 2006 19:41:19 GMT -5
Do the friends in your field worship the workers? Do they see them as the only avenues whereby one can seek God? Some workers are aware of this problem and make references to it in meetings. I believe they could stop it. After the testimony session would be a good time. Say something like "we hear so much praise given to the ministry but how about more praise to God?"
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Post by firstborn on Jan 25, 2006 19:53:03 GMT -5
Do the friends in your field worship the workers? Do they see them as the only avenues whereby one can seek God? Some workers are aware of this problem and make references to it in meetings. I believe they could stop it. After the testimony session would be a good time. Say something like "we hear so much praise given to the ministry but how about more praise to God?" Sorry, misread.
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Post by jxr on Jan 25, 2006 20:44:02 GMT -5
There was a time in one region, where the convention testimonies were littered with people thanking the workers (by name) in their district. This practice was allowed to flourish for some time, until it was squashed by one senior worker at the last convention in that state. Notably, his name was never mentioned in testimony...
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Post by johnchivers on Jan 25, 2006 21:12:52 GMT -5
No.
No.
If one or two above were true (worker worship or false belief), the workers I know would likely speak privately with the person so as not to embarrass him or her publicly.
I see nothing wrong with thanking God for the workers. I certainly do this -- along with thanking Him for many other things (including the blood of Jesus, my family and all the other many blessings in my life, etc.). Thanking God for a worker is worshiping God, not the worker.
As for doing it while the worker is present -- I thank God for the things that the Spirit moves me to be thankful for. If I feel moved to thank God for a worker in a public prayer I assume I've been moved by the Spirit to do so -- perhaps the worker needs some encouragement and God is using me to provide it.
Best wishes, John C
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BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
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Post by BC on Jan 25, 2006 21:41:20 GMT -5
Amen John,
This is my thoughts on the matter also. Have seen worker worship and know the worker spoke privately to this friend of mine and asked for their focus to be on God not the messanger.
Regards BC
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Post by nathan7 on Jan 25, 2006 22:04:26 GMT -5
1)Do the friends in your field worship the workers?
~~~ My reply: Some do worship the workers without knowing it but "MOST" of the friends just respect the workers for Christ's sakes. I don't worship the workers, I only worship God. However, I do appreciate the workers' love for souls of humanity, their willingness to leave their families, jobs behind so others could hear the Gospel of Jesus.
2) Do they see them as the only avenues whereby one can seek God?
~~~ My reply: No. Workers are not the only avenues whereby one can seek God. I have known professing friends and some workers who heard about Jesus through the friends not through the workers.
Yes, God can save anyone He chooses that is not my responsibity to say who are SAVED or NOT Saved. Salvation belongs to God. He decides who SAVES or NOT saved.
3) Some workers are aware of this problem and make references to it in meetings. I believe they could stop it. After the testimony session would be a good time. Say something like ;we hear so much praise given to the ministry but how about more praise to God.
~~~ My reply: When I was a worker we preached as John the Bapist did when he pointed his own disciples to follow Jesus, "He (Jesus) must increase and I (John the Baptist) must decrease."
ALL the glory must go to God, workers are only the servants and His messengers.
But I do want to say THANKS! to the Father for sending His servants to find me when I was wandering in darkness, and very confused about God.
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Post by happy on Jan 25, 2006 23:17:22 GMT -5
Recently a worker recounted a story of a person on their deathbed who was babbling in their sickness about God etc. The worker said something to the effect that she wished she could help this person, but it was to late. I was horrified. What about GOD helping this person??? Maybe their babbling was because of Him dealing with their heart/mind. I was appalled to think that a person could help instead of the Lord himself. Oh well..... I think it is instances like this that promote focus on the messenger.
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Post by johnchivers on Jan 25, 2006 23:22:18 GMT -5
So Happy, you would not have a desire to help this person?
John C
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Post by happy on Jan 25, 2006 23:24:22 GMT -5
I would desire for God to help this person. I would pray for his mercy and feel it was completely out of my control. I would find comfort in the fact that GOD has the power to help and the mercy to do it. What about you?
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Post by johnchivers on Jan 25, 2006 23:28:22 GMT -5
O f course I would do these things. But I would also have a strong desire to help this person or any person in any way I could. What I do not understand is why people insist on finding the worst possible meaning in situations like you described as opposed to nothing but good intentions. Does it say something about the interpreter's heart?
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Post by happy on Jan 25, 2006 23:31:20 GMT -5
What are you saying about my heart, John? I am giving a mild version of the story, intentionally. I can only describe the feelings that overwhelmed me as I heard the story. For that, there are no apologies. I believe, to often, there is an assumed power that people have to save others. For me, the power lies ONLY in the Lord himself. Yes, he works thru people, but to give up on someone's salvation because they can't communicate with you is not conceivable to me.
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Post by Agree with Happy on Jan 25, 2006 23:44:18 GMT -5
Happy said the worker said it was too late to be of help to the dying person. That's the really sad part. She was judging that there was no help for the person, even though she obviously couldn't see into the person's heart, or even understand what was being communicated between that person and God. She didn't say, "I wished I would have been of some help to this dying person before the death bed experience, but I was thankful to see the expressions being made to God and trust that He had the person in His care."
See the difference?
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Post by johnchivers on Jan 26, 2006 0:01:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry Happy. I don't really mean that. I just feel if this worker (or any worker) was putting him or herself on a level with Christ (as we often read on the TMB) then she would NOT have felt it was too late for her help. That's why I just take her comment to mean she wished she could be of help, comfort or whatever. If I thought she meant the person was beyond help (beyond the mercy of God) or was not worthy of her prayers or only she, the worker, could interceed -- in all fairness, I would ask her for clarification -- not assume this is what she meant. Sorry again for my offense.
JC
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Post by nathan7 on Jan 26, 2006 0:18:33 GMT -5
I'm sorry Happy. I don't really mean that. I just feel if this worker (or any worker) was putting him or herself on a level with Christ (as we often read on the TMB) then she would NOT have felt it was too late for her help. That's why I just take her comment to mean she wished she could be of help, comfort or whatever. If I thought she meant the person was beyond help (beyond the mercy of God) or was not worthy of her prayers or only she, the worker, could interceed -- in all fairness, I would ask her for clarification -- not assume this is what she meant. Sorry again for my offense. JC As an ex-worker myself I didn't feel that I was ever equal or on the same level of Jesus Christ. I don't believe there is a worker in his/her right mind believes he/she is equal as Christ, Himself. The workers can only point people to Jesus as the Savior and Redeemer of men and women souls. The workers can't SAVE anyone through their own names, righteousness, or goodness. It is Jesus Christ, who SAVES those who believe in Him. I agree with you John C. in fairness it would be nice to get this sister's clarification instead of guessing what she was saying.
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Post by ex-teenager on Jan 26, 2006 4:20:37 GMT -5
One of the workers this year made mention of it, they said that they do not want to be made celebrities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2006 5:49:00 GMT -5
On of the workers this year made mention of it, they said that they do not want to be made celebrities. This is sometimes (often) true of individual workers -- however it is quite openly taught that 'the work' (as an institution) should be revered -- it is openly taught that 'the work' represents God on the earth and should be treated as such. Edgar
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Post by ex-teenager on Jan 26, 2006 8:37:01 GMT -5
On of the workers this year made mention of it, they said that they do not want to be made celebrities. This is sometimes (often) true of individual workers -- however it is quite openly taught that 'the work' (as an institution) should be revered -- it is openly taught that 'the work' represents God on the earth and should be treated as such. Edgar I do respect them as Gods servants, spreading the Gospel.. But I do not and would not worship them. I am thankful for what has been done through Jesus. I respect each servant... not the so called 'institution'!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2006 9:11:07 GMT -5
Teenager, it may be admirabe to respect Gods servants -- but it is unrighteous to make as special group amongst those serving God and consider them more worthy of your reverence than other 'ordinary' folks serving God.
Cult doctrine proclaimed by the 2x2s would imply that workers are a 'higher' class of folks in Gods service!! It proclaims that they have different conditions to fullfill than ordinary folks in service -- and this same doctrine proclaims that they have superior authority to 'ordinary' folks in service to God.
Edgar
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Post by Pictures on walls on Jan 26, 2006 10:55:15 GMT -5
I wasn't at the particular convention, but was told by some who were that a worker said from the platform that it grieves their hearts to stay in kids rooms where they have on their wall posters of athletes or celebrities instead of the workers' pictures. That it would make their hearts so glad to see the walls covered with worker pictures.
Like I said, I wasn't there but maybe someone on this board who was could fill in what I left out, or correct what I got wrong.
Worker worship?
They didn't say it would be wonderful if the kids had pictures of Jesus (of course, no one knows what Jesus looked like so we don't like to have pictures of Him around. For shame.) or maybe even bible verses that mean something special to them. Or just inspirational sayings by another Christian. (Of course, there are no other real Christians except in this religion, so it would have to be some professing person's sayings to be acceptable to the workers.)
Oh, never mind. I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed.
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Post by Zorro on Jan 26, 2006 11:46:55 GMT -5
To "pictures on the wall" I was at that convention. The same thing was said by a really big hitter this year at another convention. To be fair, I must say that I spoke with the overseer and he was very upset about it and actually did speak to the bro worker. But I must also say that I was stunned when I heard it again this year. I guess I shouldn't be, though....I once heard a woman describing this man....she said watching him walk through a convention grounds was like watching Jesus. Really, I want to make two points about "worker worship". 1. I think folks need to define it in the first place. No one would ever admit to it. But do we put the workers in a place that is rightfully God's? For example .... asking/allowing them to direct our decision making instead of God. And please folks, don't say this isn't done....I've done it myself and observed it for 30 years. 2. I really believe the workers are trying to slow this down. Unfortunately, they have a dilemma. Holding yourself up as God's only true oracles in the world on one hand and asking people to refrain from reverence on the other hand is a delicate balancing act. If a person actually believes the workers to be God's true and only messengers, how can they resist putting them on a pedestal? With great difficulty, that's how
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jan 26, 2006 11:52:25 GMT -5
If a person actually believes the workers to be God's true and only messengers, how can they resist putting them on a pedestal? With great difficulty, that's how In the workers' church the messenger is more important than the message. I've looked at the workers' church as Israel when she said "give us a king we can see."
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Post by Ottomodon on Jan 27, 2006 11:19:19 GMT -5
If a person actually believes the workers to be God's true and only messengers, how can they resist putting them on a pedestal? With great difficulty, that's how In the workers' church the messenger is more important than the message. I've looked at the workers' church as Israel when she said "give us a king we can see." Here is the way BACKSTABBING hypocrites operate in this world, they pretend they are everyones friend, and yet their conscience is seared with a HOT iron, so that they don't feel the pricking of a GOOD conscience, but trample on the efforts of those that GIVE their lives so that OTHERS can LIVE, and lift their own pitiful lives into their enjoyment of MOCKING the God of the Universe. It reminds me of a 'cutting song' that was somewhat popular in the mid 1970s.. 'they smile to your face, all the time they want to TAKE their place.....''the BACKstabbers''...
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jan 27, 2006 11:22:42 GMT -5
Here is the way BACKSTABBING hypocrites operate in this world, they pretend they are everyones friend, and yet their conscience is seared with a HOT iron, so that they don't feel the priing of a GOOD conscience, but trample on the efforts of those that GIVE their lives so that OTHERS can LIVE, and lift their own pitiful lives into their enjoyment of MOCKING the God of the Universe. It reminds me of a 'cutting song' that was somewhat popular in the mid 1970s.. 'they smile to your face, all the time they want to TAKE their place.....''the BACKstabbers''... I think you are way too hard on the workers and their friends.
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Post by to Greg on Jan 27, 2006 11:35:10 GMT -5
Here is the way BACKSTABBING hypocrites operate in this world, they pretend they are everyones friend, and yet their conscience is seared with a HOT iron, so that they don't feel the pricking of a GOOD conscience, but trample on the efforts of those that GIVE their lives so that OTHERS can LIVE, and lift their own pitiful lives into their enjoyment of MOCKING the God of the Universe. It reminds me of a 'cutting song' that was somewhat popular in the mid 1970s.. 'they smile to your face, all the time they want to TAKE their place.....''the BACKstabbers''... I think you are way too hard on the workers and their friends. Hey, this discription is AIMED at you, and I can now see that the shoe [glove?] fits perfectly, albeit, you have a deceitful selfrighteousness that stinks.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jan 27, 2006 11:39:49 GMT -5
Hey, this discription is AIMED at you, and I can now see that the shoe [glove?] fits perfectly, albeit, you have a deceitful selfrighteousness that stinks. Oh. Okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding on that post.
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Post by Simple on Jan 27, 2006 12:05:38 GMT -5
In the workers' church the messenger is more important than the message. I've looked at the workers' church as Israel when she said "give us a king we can see." Here is the way BACKSTABBING hypocrites operate in this world, they pretend they are everyones friend, and yet their conscience is seared with a HOT iron, so that they don't feel the priing of a GOOD conscience, but trample on the efforts of those that GIVE their lives so that OTHERS can LIVE, and lift their own pitiful lives into their enjoyment of MOCKING the God of the Universe. It reminds me of a 'cutting song' that was somewhat popular in the mid 1970s.. 'they smile to your face, all the time they want to TAKE their place.....''the BACKstabbers''... Well Otto, Just like the workers who change the Gospel of Jesus to flatter themselves, you have changed the words to the song you mentioned. 'they smile to your face, all the time they want to TAKE your place.
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Maggie
Senior Member
Posts: 347
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Post by Maggie on Jan 27, 2006 12:10:43 GMT -5
........................BACKSTABBING hypocrites ..................... Well, we know what kind of a hypocrite you are, Ottomodon. No backstabbing for you, you go for the face, straight for the juggular. You were so vicious and rabid it was hard to tell who on earth you were tearing to shreds, just that something annoyed the heck out of you and you went off, flailing and stabbing and spewing invective like a regular miffed 2x2. Yikes!!! It's sad but somewhat amusing.
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Post by spiderman on Jan 27, 2006 12:43:33 GMT -5
It really puts a cloud all over my day when I read a post like Ottomodon's. I was going to tear right back at him, but I'm glad I didn't. Greg showed great restraint. Otto, we're all seeking God here. We all want to be "counted in ". The whole purpose of this sight, as I see it, is for discussion about the fallacy of the exclusionary ways of the workers and friends. If you believe that the friends and workers are the only ones saved, and the rest who disagree are going to a lost eternity let me suggest that you join the new board for like minded people, Standing True. They would welcome you there with open arms. You would probably not get so upset. Understand one thing Otto. Most people here are against believing the Living Witness Doctrine as put forth by the workers not long after they formed. So if that makes you angry from the get go, just go. I don't like the tone you took with Greg at all. Maybe others think it's OK, but to me it's just vulgar. You're probably a nice fellow. Your momma probably loves you, and I'll bet I could love you too. But ease up a bit , we're all buddies here. And we all love Jesus! ;D
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