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Post by Oh Man on Aug 16, 2007 19:49:54 GMT -5
Dear Monica (again!),In reply to your question there have been many posts made in this thread, mostly by people who are not in the Church - as you and I are - and who do not understand our situation. They have given you much advice. Some of it is undeniably good. But much of it is dangerous. You have been advised to read the words of men. To find books authored by fallible theologians and take THEIR teachings onboard as guidance for life. You have been advised even about the mind of God! "God does not care about what church you belong to", you have been told, "He will accept you no matter what you do." Consider this: this advice is aimed at getting you out of the Church bodily without scant regard for your eternal soul. As the only Friend who has written to you, let me tell you this: my greatest desire is that you should stay within the Church where you will be guided, nourished, and filled by the Lord Jesus. Yet, my advice to you is not intended to, or calculated to keep you in the Church if this is not where you want to be. But I do think it is VITAL that YOU explore the issue carefully first before you leave so that you go out on the basis of knowledge of that which you are going out to. Dear sister! Don't read the words of men to make this decision. Read the words of God! This is what the Church upholds and encourages - open the Holy Bible and read, pray, and pray again over those sacred words. God will lead, guide and strengthen you according to his purpose and will if you truly do this in the spirit of wanting to glorify God with your life. If, of course, you are apathetic about God, then your leaving will be merely a purging of the branch; you will be pruned from the vine as an unfruitful bough. But if you are zealous for God, then he will give you an unequivocal answer through the Holy Spirit, and the words and prayers of the saints. Outside of the order of the Church you will find a barrage of ideas, theologies, religions, denominations and men and women hungry for your soul and your money. It will be confusing. And you will cry out in painful longing for the discipline, consistency, and security of the Church - who is your mother; your family; your teacher who has nourished you with preaching all your life. All your life you have been accustomed to life WITHIN the Church. You have no idea of the turmoil, the torment and the existential emptiness of being OUTSIDE of the Church. You will be subjected to traditions devised by men. You will be alienated from the sacraments of Communion according to Jesus' example, blessed by the elders of the Church. Your baptism will be declared void by the Church - for if your baptism was true to Christ, you would not have left his people. There are those on this forum who hate Christ's family; his Church. They despise the Servants of the Most High God, and they exalt in unbiblical ways. Will you listen to them? Rather I urge you to open your ears and hear God! Listen! Listen to the prayers of God's Church; that is where our doctrine is found. For, " Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth to everlasting life, and few there be that find it. But wide s the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to everlasting destruction - and many there be that go in thereat!" Jesus lived for you. He died for you. And he now says to you, " Come unto me, and I will give you rest." He now says to you, " I have loved you - wherein hast thou loved me?" Will you abandon the Good Shepherd for the ways which are not the ways of God? I urge you: turn to God. Pray this prayer (as I do every Sunday) when you partake in the holiest moment of worship - the partaking of the Holy Communion; the New Passover; the Holy Supper of the Lord on Sunday Morning: I am not worthy to recieve you, Lord, but only say the word and I shall be healed. Remove from me my sins and trespasses. Take from me my deficiences and wretchedness. And allow me to see the light of your truth in clarity.With the passion of the whole Church so I write, May you make the right choice! This person is delusional. Must think he is some type of Sage or something from the 2x2. Partaking of the emblems will not bring you salvation. It is only a rememberance. Yes search yourself out. Then ask yourself. Do you want to be in the hands of Jesus or the hands of 2x2's like GIT who promoted Grace +. In the one of the last posts of GIT, it was stated that you will be dead to Christ if you depart the 2x2s. Is That LOVE. John the Apostle wrote the 1 Letter of John which is about the Incarnation. 1 John 2
8: Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9: He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11: But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.GIT has no love for you else there would have not been the judgment given such that you would be dead. I submit that you should read this whole first apistile. You will se the lack of love in the 2x2. You will see that our LORD is leading you.
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ann
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Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
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Post by ann on Aug 16, 2007 20:05:17 GMT -5
I agree - excellent advice.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 16, 2007 21:26:16 GMT -5
This ia not ture for all churches. I agree it is hard to change church fellowships sometimes... simply because you do not know the people. But I assure you that many of the Christians outside your group are very caring loving people. One thing for sure if you decide to leave they are not going to make you feel guilty. They will wish you well and continue to love you.
I agree with GIT if you leave the F&W group it will not be easy. You will for sure find out who your true friends are. Many that you thought loved you will not continue to show that love.
I do not believe that you are apathetic about God... you did not say anything to indicate this. GIT says to pray. That is good advice. Ask God to show you what is more important the F&W love or His. As I said in the above run to His open arms. He still loves you. The "Church", is a relationship or fellowship in the universal church. This relationship is "vertical"--- between God and all those who are saved "our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 16, 2007 21:27:34 GMT -5
Dear Monica (again!),In reply to your question there have been many posts made in this thread, mostly by people who are not in the Church - as you and I are - and who do not understand our situation. How would we not understand? Were we not professing? I was in the fellowship for 25 years... isn't that longer then you've been alive? How could/would we not understand? Do you not advocate the reading of different theologians? I've believe you've mentioned a few names/bodies of works in the past... Leaving the fellowship and leaving the Body of Christ are two different things... Are you suggesting that it is impossible to be guided, nourished, and filled by the Lord Jesus outside of your church? Isn't this another example of your exclusiveness? I agree... And what say you if God leads her out of the 2x2 fellowship? So to you, leaving the 2x2 fellowship equates to being pruned from the vine of Christ? Isn't this another example of your exclusiveness? Are you suggesting Communion is not available outside the 2x2 fellowship? Isn't this another example of your exclusiveness? Isn't this another example of your exclusiveness? For what reason do you equate the straight gate with the 2x2 fellowship? Why do you equate abandoning God with leaving the 2x2 fellowship? Isn't this another example of your exclusiveness?
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 16, 2007 21:34:56 GMT -5
Today I had my husband read this thread, paying special attention to gloryintruth's posts. (My husband is a Christian and has been to a few meetings - long ago. But he has been around for my healing process, and of course he knows my 'professing' children well, as well as living with my 'professing' parents!) I asked him to be prepared to tell me how he would answer git's posts in this thread.
By the time he got down to the end, he was laughing. I was really puzzled by that. His response to my request? He said, "I would just respond by saying 'Hail Caesar!' "
So, git, that is the response of one person completely outside 'the argument' to YOUR posts. I certainly hope that Monica is hearing your preaching the 2x2 party line loudly and clearly!
E
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 16, 2007 23:27:20 GMT -5
By the time he got down to the end, he was laughing. I was really puzzled by that. His response to my request? He said, "I would just respond by saying 'Hail Caesar!'"
I am not going to allow myself to be provoked. And I'm not going to bite back - I am going to be calm and at peace. You may believe as you wish. Let me believe as I wish. Incidentally, I stand by my words because I don't regard these issues as being something to laugh at. This is serious, Sylvestra.
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Aug 16, 2007 23:50:14 GMT -5
I wonder if GIT really is part of the "Friends". The whole manner of speech and deliverance appears to be a mockery of the Truth, wanting you readers to think this person(GIT) represents the mind of those who attend meetings. No matter what, I find the whole writing ODD.
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Aug 16, 2007 23:55:19 GMT -5
[So, git, that is the response of one person completely outside 'the argument' to YOUR posts. I certainly hope that Monica is hearing your preaching the 2x2 party line loudly and clearly!
It may be the party line, but the delivery is very strange. I don't think GIT is one of "us".
Yours, A meeting-goer
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Post by Zorro on Aug 17, 2007 0:11:53 GMT -5
I've reached a point where I have decided that I am ready at heart to part with the way. I do enjoy going to the meetings from time to time, I do pray, and I do have faith.
However the way itself no longer holds the value it once did. My parents have meeting in their home and I am their only professing child. I know it would break their heart.
Do I tell the workers I am leaving? Do I tell my elders who preach every sunday(they are good people) that this is the only and they look down on anybody who isn't prfoessing? Or do I just stop coming?
What is the best way to go about it without causing too much hurt or too much of a stir?
Thanks for your help and insight.
Monica, The only thing I'd advise is that you allow God to lead you. Understand that it is simply beyond comprehension to most members of the fellowship that God can - and does - lead people "out". But He does and when the time is right it will simply unfold before you. IMO, there are right reasons to leave and wrong reasons to leave. The wrong reasons are those fostered by basic unwillingness and rebellion. One of the saddest things is when someone leaves without clearly working through the weightier issues and finds themselves in what I call the "blackhole" - not believing the 2x2s are right, but still believing everything "outside" is false. Pure misery, IMO. The right reason is the leading of God Himself into deeper spirituality. If that's what you're seeking, God will lead you to it.
As far as the "nut and bolts"....letters (long or short?), who do you send them to, talk to the workers?, etc, etc. I'd suggest you contact Cherie at TTT....I'd guess she's seen and documented every approach ever used. Personally, because I was an elder we felt it was most appropriate to write a letter. I know folks that just stopped coming. As I suggested earlier, if you allow God to truly lead you through this, all this type of thing will unfold before you and be very clear in due time.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 17, 2007 0:40:59 GMT -5
dont force it... dont push yourself to do something that doesnt feel right... I would recommend attending a local church sunday mornings, and gospel meetings in the afternoon... Ha ha ha Some would recommend chanting and yoga and Christianity. Some like dragons and witchraft. Yikes, this guy is weird, watch out. Brad
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 17, 2007 0:44:49 GMT -5
I've reached a point where I have decided that I am ready at heart to part with the way. I do enjoy going to the meetings from time to time, I do pray, and I do have faith. However the way itself no longer holds the value it once did. My parents have meeting in their home and I am their only professing child. I know it would break their heart. Do I tell the workers I am leaving? Do I tell my elders who preach every sunday(they are good people) that this is the only and they look down on anybody who isn't prfoessing? Or do I just stop coming? What is the best way to go about it without causing too much hurt or too much of a stir? Thanks for your help and insight. Monica, There will be a stir, there will be hurt. It doesn't matter. The only important point is that you obey God. God has created all of us in his image. He loves us. He has given us so much encouragement and help, he has offered us eternal life and blessed us in so many ways. I pray that you will do what God wants and ultimately that will be best for you and the people around you. Please, I beg you, consider reading your Bible and ask yourself "What does God want me to be doing" and do that. God loves you soooooooooo much. Brad
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 17, 2007 1:23:07 GMT -5
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 17, 2007 1:31:07 GMT -5
hey back off...i asked her to chat first, i saw her first, lol..... brad, if she chats with you first, you are looking at thunderstorms.... just kidding, maybe.... (i have to watch what i say.... because God has a thing for me... i ask, He gives....sometimes i don't even have to ask.... strange, God does not want me in the chatroom. He knows i'll just get hurt in there, i guess. and back on topic - NOBODY here is exiting truth.
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Post by Nuts on Aug 17, 2007 2:19:00 GMT -5
On no account telephone this guy Brad. This guy is nuts!
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 17, 2007 2:22:49 GMT -5
Monica,
This thread is an excellent demonstration of something. Read it carefully, comparing and contrasting this response with that. There is a divide of spirit. Which side do you want to be on?
-Glory
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 2:25:37 GMT -5
dont force it... dont push yourself to do something that doesnt feel right... I would recommend attending a local church sunday mornings, and gospel meetings in the afternoon... Ha ha ha Some would recommend chanting and yoga and Christianity. Some like dragons and witchraft. Yikes, this guy is weird, watch out. Brad Brad, How am I weird to suggest she go to a Christian church? How do you equate chanting, yoga, dragons, and witchcraft to my recommendation she attend a Christian church? You must have misread my post...
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 2:27:48 GMT -5
Monica,This thread is an excellent demonstration of something. Read it carefully, comparing and contrasting this response with that. There is a divide of spirit. Which side do you want to be on? -Glory In other words, don't leave God's true way (the 2x2 fellowship) because to do so would mean you would be switching sides and would not be on the side of God. Come on...
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 17, 2007 3:10:49 GMT -5
On no account telephone this guy Brad. This guy is nuts! thats a horrible thing to say. how would you like it if you offered someone your number and others started telling them never call you? i know words slip out fast, but brad can't hurt anyone or turn them from the truth, not the elect anyway.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 17, 2007 3:45:09 GMT -5
I love the fact that although Nathan, Bert and ii and others in the fellowship have such different views, we always get along. We don't exchange bitter words, or have arguments.
Instead we defend and support each other. And we accept each other for who they are - the object of our activities is not to focus on that which divides us, but that which unites us together! On our common hope, joy and friendship. There may not be an absolute conformity of doctrine, but I know that there is a unity of spirit.
I would encourage anyone searching for answers about respective churches to check out this thread. There is an unpleasant expression in the world about "eating one's own"; a term used to express metaphorical canabalism.
I'll leave it at that, because I don't want to come across as unpleasant or negative or carping. That is not my intention. But I think the lesson is graphically demonstrated here.
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Post by Former 2x2 on Aug 17, 2007 4:14:20 GMT -5
Trust me it is hard to stand on your own two feet and depart from this way. Especially if most of your family and extended family believes in this as the ONLY TRUE WAY! You can leave if your heart is telling you too. I did. Actually, my spouse and I left.
I phoned my elders and workers of the area and told them we were not coming any more. And, I told them Do not call us and do not bother us. And I asked them to take our # off the call list.
You need to make a clean break and set yourself free! Our parents love us and respect us for our decision. They do of course hope and pray that we will come back some day to meeting.
We do have some siblings that did part from this way ahead of us, so we had someone we could talk to. If you talk to people inside the way, will most are still closed minded in regards to this is the ONLY WAY! So, they will not understand our choice to leave truth.
Follow your heart! Pray! Read, figure out what is right for you, not what is right for your parents or extended family.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2007 4:21:02 GMT -5
Trust me it is hard to stand on your own two feet and depart from this way. Especially if most of your family and extended family believes in this as the ONLY TRUE WAY! You can leave if your heart is telling you too. I did. Actually, my spouse and I left. I phoned my elders and workers of the area and told them we were not coming any more. And, I told them Do not call us and do not bother us. And I asked them to take our # off the call list. You need to make a clean break and set yourself free! Our parents love us and respect us for our decision. They do of course hope and pray that we will come back some day to meeting. We do have some siblings that did part from this way ahead of us, so we had someone we could talk to. If you talk to people inside the way, will most are still closed minded in regards to this is the ONLY WAY! So, they will not understand our choice to leave truth. Follow your heart! Pray! Read, figure out what is right for you, not what is right for your parents or extended family. I agree completely .. A real clean break is easiest for everyone involved --- including proffessing relatives and conections. Cutting off the monkeys tail a inch at a time does not make it less painful!! And remember that waiting for 100% certainty is only an excuse to postpone -- The important descisions in life have to be made on 'faith.'
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Post by Zorro on Aug 17, 2007 9:14:28 GMT -5
This thread is an excellent demonstration of something. Read it carefully, comparing and contrasting this response with that. There is a divide of spirit. Which side do you want to be on?About a year before I left the fellowship, I was reported to my overseer because I was speaking to my meeting about salvation by grace. He came to my home and told me that he had been told that I had a "different spirit" and then explained that to believe in grace was really just looking for license to sin. From that point forward my family was literally shunned. GiT, perhaps you'd like to take a shot at explaining the "divide in spirit" I experienced
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Post by freespirit on Aug 17, 2007 9:15:55 GMT -5
[ And remember that waiting for 100% certainty is only an excuse to postpone -- The important descisions in life have to be made on 'faith.' Hmmmm.... I'm not sure about this. I believe that some people are led out by faith. I believe that they MUST go because they were so entrenched in the culture, the rules, the traditions that they were missing a bigger blessing. But, I also believe that some people stay in by faith because that is where God wants them for the moment. And that is where their blessing is. And we don't know which one we are until we go to GOD and ask. Not a message board, not our mommies, not our best friend, not the workers. But God. We gotta go to God for answers. And if God says go, then RUN. But if God says stay, then stay. Whatever he tells us to do--that is where we get our strength and blessing from. Monica-- What would you do differently if you no longer attending the meetings? In the simplest of terms, unless one is running around all over the countryside going to gospel meetings, the meetings take up about 2 and 1/2 hours a week. More or less. But that's it. So, basically we're just talking about 2 and 1/2 hours a week that you are going to be doing something else. What do you plan to fill that time up with? I hope that whatever it is, it is something that will encourage your soul. I guess I'm asking because I don't find the meetings restricting. I don't do or not do something because I happen to go to this church. I have bangs (my hair is long because I happen to like long hair, not out of obligation to other people). I wear pants. I wear jewelry. I dance. I ride motorcycles. I read a lot. Granted, I'm a little off-beat--but I'm going to be that way in ANY church I go to--because I'm kinda unique and weird. But--I ask for God's guidance a lot. It's HIM that we are seeking. Not this religion, or any other religion. IMO, one of the worst possible reason to stay in meetings is "to help someone else." I think this because the focus is STILL on something besides God. It's still on what other people think, not about doing what God is calling you to do or being where God wants you to be. That's just the way I see things, of course. As far as losing friends goes: I personally don't think it's healthy to have all of our social activities/friends come from any one group--secular, Christian or other. I think we just paint ourself into a box if we do that. Eventually, somebody somewhere is gonna betray us, hurt us. It's not going to feel good. I wish it didn't happen. But it does. If your entire social network and support is wrapped up in one group, you won't have any support to hold you up when that happens. Your perspective will be way off about the matter and you won't have any neutral friends to go to and whine and moan about it. This is just some random thoughts that went through my crazy brain. Sending you love. Pray a lot. peace, freespirit
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 17, 2007 9:48:17 GMT -5
And remember that waiting for 100% certainty is only an excuse to postpone -- The important descisions in life have to be made on 'faith.'
I agree with Freespirit on this one. It IS possible to find certainty about some decisions. Or at least to be pretty sure. And whilst I have pushed the so-called "party line" on this forum, I wouldn't want Monica to stay if she was unhappy, but I know the existential angst of going out without prior preparation and groundwork.
Too many people are too eager to get Monica out of the fellowhsip. And I'm sitting here thinking: "There's no concept of looking at the bigger picture. It's all focussed on one tiny aspect of someone else's spiritual life." It's one thing to lend support - and I'm actually all for offering support if someone needs it, for any reason pertaining to faith - but some of these people don't know their posterior from their elbow.
Is it going to be the best thing for Monica for her to leave - is her choice an informed one? Or, is all this about giving certain individuals a warm, fuzzy glow of validation and personal satisfaction to have got someone away from the hated church?
Personally, I can't think of a worse place to go for answers than the TMB. I have often described it as "sucking on the sump pump of spiritual toxin" - because of the negativity and innuendo, sometimes rooted very deeply in even the "kindest" posts.
I see this very clearly at times. Perhaps it is because I am one of those people who read body language like a book. I seem to know exactly what people are thinking, because I don't just listen to what they say - I watch how they say it. I'm also very sensitive to certain words and the structures of words. Call it "textual body language". And I see hostility and suspicion all too often.
Ultimately, Monica isn't going to get any sensible guidance from me, or from anyone else here. She needs to resort to prayer, often and long. I mean, honestly! If you're coming to the TMB for spiritual guidance, you might as well sign yourself up to Hell's exchange programme at the same time.
I guess I'm asking because I don't find the meetings restricting. I don't do or not do something because I happen to go to this church. I have bangs (my hair is long because I happen to like long hair, not out of obligation to other people). I wear pants. I wear jewelry. I dance. I ride motorcycles. I read a lot. Granted, I'm a little off-beat--but I'm going to be that way in ANY church I go to--because I'm kinda unique and weird. But--I ask for God's guidance a lot. It's HIM that we are seeking. Not this religion, or any other religion.
It's interesting that there is room in the fold for all kinds. I would be your polar opposite, Freespirit. I'm uptight, easily agitated, and like to do things correctly. I speak excellent English; I wear a tie and long-sleeves just about 24\7; I like to walk through forests and bushland with my dogs which go everywhere with me (I could never own a mixed breed dog); I read in front of the fire; my life consists of teaching, writing and reading; my house is absolutely regimented. Yet despite my pedantic and screwed up nature, we can still find common ground in worship together!
Postscript to Monica: Get outta here, sweetheart! Flee from Satan's Mad-Hatters' tea-party which is the TMB. You don't want to recieve guidance from ANYONE here - and that includes me. You want a direct link to the Almighty. Pray.
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Post by ghost on Aug 17, 2007 11:48:37 GMT -5
I've reached a point where I have decided that I am ready at heart to part with the way. I do enjoy going to the meetings from time to time, I do pray, and I do have faith. However the way itself no longer holds the value it once did. My parents have meeting in their home and I am their only professing child. I know it would break their heart. Do I tell the workers I am leaving? Do I tell my elders who preach every sunday(they are good people) that this is the only and they look down on anybody who isn't prfoessing? Or do I just stop coming? What is the best way to go about it without causing too much hurt or too much of a stir? Thanks for your help and insight. Contrary to many hardliners in this thread I understand that you have already decided to stop and you wonder about the method. A nice and steady goodby is all that is needed - nothing more nothing less. Stop going to meetings and when asked «why?» simply reply «because I decided so, because I feel it so and please do not try to make me change my mind.» Starting conversations with types like GIT etc. will hurt you more and make you feel depressed. Pepple who really love you will say «Ok Monica, we respect your decision». People obsessed by the cult will try selling you fear, damnation, shame, and all the commodities exchanged in meetings. Good night and good luck !
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Post by amen on Aug 17, 2007 12:04:00 GMT -5
Starting conversations with types like GIT etc. will hurt you more and make you feel depressed. AMEN!!!
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 17, 2007 13:04:38 GMT -5
GIT, I just composed a long rambling post in response to what you have written to Monica, but I ended up frustrated and angry about what you posted, so deleted the whole thing and am now starting over in a more 'Christian' manner. I'm really curious as to how many of us who post here you consider to "hate Christ's family? I know of quite a few people who post here who I believe are true Christians. Point blank, do you see in my posts someone who hates Christs family, or do you see someone who is a Christian? Your words: There are those on this forum who hate Christ's family; his Church. They despise the Servants of the Most High God, and they exalt in unbiblical ways. Will you listen to them? Rather I urge you to open your ears and hear God! Listen! Listen to the prayers of God's Church; that is where our doctrine is found.So..... by your following words I can take it that at some point in your life you left the f&w's way without prior preparation and groundwork? I wouldn't want Monica to stay if she was unhappy, but I know the existential angst of going out without prior preparation and groundwork.It appears to me that Monica is trying to do the preparation and groundwork that you must not have done. At times I read what you post and agree with what you have to say. At other times it is as if someone else has sat down at your computer, logged in as you and posted under your user name. Scott
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 17, 2007 13:32:05 GMT -5
By the time he got down to the end, he was laughing. I was really puzzled by that. His response to my request? He said, "I would just respond by saying 'Hail Caesar!'"I am not going to allow myself to be provoked. And I'm not going to bite back - I am going to be calm and at peace. You may believe as you wish. Let me believe as I wish. Incidentally, I stand by my words because I don't regard these issues as being something to laugh at. This is serious, Sylvestra. Oh, git, this is VERY serious! The "party line" you are preaching is devastatingly serious and furthermore, disastrous for those who begin to see the falseness of it and realize that they have also supported it, encouraged it, and pushed it down other people's throats in the past!! Did you ever see the movie "The Village". The "party line" is shockingly similar! My husband was not laughing at your content, but at your presentation. E
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