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Post by nathan on Aug 16, 2017 19:11:06 GMT -5
hmmmmm.... If that was true, he was still moving among the friends and with the workers, whom he knew like he wasn't excommunicated at all.
Steve was banned from attending fellowship meetings. Wow... he was doing thing really BAD for the overseers to ban him from the ministry and fellowship at the same time, so he couldn't be touch with the friends to corrupt their minds.
Well, that water is under the bridge now... I wish Steve B. the best.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Aug 16, 2017 19:16:42 GMT -5
Really bad??? Preaching grace??? Please Nathan, oh please just reread what you wrote...
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Post by nathan on Aug 16, 2017 19:20:19 GMT -5
Really bad??? Preaching grace??? Please Nathan, oh please just reread what you wrote... Come on, there is more to it than preaching grace.... Harold B. was the overseer in Oregon over 20 years, and his overseer before him preached the same and they DID NOT get excommunicate from the ministry!
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Post by fixit on Aug 16, 2017 19:46:48 GMT -5
Really bad??? Preaching grace??? Please Nathan, oh please just reread what you wrote... Come on, there is more to it than preaching grace.... Harold B. was the overseer in Oregon over 20 years, and his overseer before him preached the same and they DID NOT get excommunicate from the ministry! Not sure where you're coming from Nathan. Do you condemn Steve simply on the grounds that others condemned him? Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
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Post by nathan on Aug 16, 2017 20:00:46 GMT -5
Come on, there is more to it than preaching grace.... Harold B. was the overseer in Oregon over 20 years, and his overseer before him preached the same and they DID NOT get excommunicate from the ministry! Not sure where you're coming from Nathan. Do you condemn Steve simply on the grounds that others condemned him? Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. I posted this thread 11 years ago.... Jan 2, 2006 14:52:25 GMT -7 nathan7 said: Steve B. and I were on the same emailing list so I read many of his posts, beliefs, etc.... and something wasn't ring true about his posts. Yes, I heard he was in your parts of the world couple years ago. I wasn't surprised when I heard he left the ministry. I wish him the best. I knew something did not sound Right back then....
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Post by fixit on Aug 16, 2017 20:12:13 GMT -5
Not sure where you're coming from Nathan. Do you condemn Steve simply on the grounds that others condemned him? Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. I posted this thread 11 years ago.... Jan 2, 2006 14:52:25 GMT -7 nathan7 said: Steve B. and I were on the same emailing list so I read many of his posts, beliefs, etc.... and something wasn't ring true about his posts. Yes, I heard he was in your parts of the world couple years ago. I wasn't surprised when I heard he left the ministry. I wish him the best. I knew something did not sound Right back then....
Steve suffered depression after the suicide of his brother. Some might see that as a reason to reject him.
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Post by nathan on Aug 16, 2017 20:33:40 GMT -5
I posted this thread 11 years ago.... Jan 2, 2006 14:52:25 GMT -7 nathan7 said: Steve B. and I were on the same emailing list so I read many of his posts, beliefs, etc.... and something wasn't ring true about his posts. Yes, I heard he was in your parts of the world couple years ago. I wasn't surprised when I heard he left the ministry. I wish him the best. I knew something did not sound Right back then....
Preaching Salvation by Grace will not "ring true" or "sound right" to people conditioned to believe they have to work and work for an uncertain future. I said there were a lot more in his writings and belief that I read NOT just Salvation by grace... The workers believe in Salvation by grace through believing in the Jesus as our Savior.
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Post by fixit on Aug 16, 2017 22:18:57 GMT -5
Preaching Salvation by Grace will not "ring true" or "sound right" to people conditioned to believe they have to work and work for an uncertain future. I said there were a lot more in his writings and belief that I read NOT just Salvation by grace... The workers believe in Salvation by grace through believing in the Jesus as our Savior.I think you're mistaken Nathan. Steve didn't write much at all as far I know.
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Post by nathan on Aug 16, 2017 23:06:38 GMT -5
I said there were a lot more in his writings and belief that I read NOT just Salvation by grace... The workers believe in Salvation by grace through believing in the Jesus as our Savior.I know that some do, but I also remember hearing at convention "if someone asks you of you're saved, you can answer 'I'm being saved.'" After all, doesn't it say, "you know that you are in the process of passing from death to life when you love the brethren"... or have I misquoted it? As I understand it, the F&W believe that they (and for most, they alone) are finishing Jesus' work, while most Christians trust Jesus when he said "it is finished". We had a fellow in our wed meeting speak on "it is finished" several times before we left. He was one of the few who contacted us and sincerely said "no judgement from me" when we left. He got it, I think. Here is my understanding.... Jesus paid the ultimate ransom price, that why he said on Calvary's Cross, "It's finished." ALL paid in full, by his death on Calvary's Cross. Jesus works of the gospel is NOT finish, that why he sent Holy Spirit to continue His gospel work through the acts of the apostles and their followers until His returns.
Salvation is NOT a FIXED stated, but a continuous progression as we are serving Him, the blood of Jesus cleanses us daily, not just ONE time deals.
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Post by nathan on Aug 16, 2017 23:08:52 GMT -5
I said there were a lot more in his writings and belief that I read NOT just Salvation by grace... The workers believe in Salvation by grace through believing in the Jesus as our Savior.I think you're mistaken Nathan. Steve didn't write much at all as far I know. I read Steve B. writings, his thoughts on different topics we were discussing on John Wegter's email listing, which he had set up for ex-workers, workers and friends to share our thoughts, ideas. Only a few were invited to join this certain group.
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2017 3:55:23 GMT -5
I think you're mistaken Nathan. Steve didn't write much at all as far I know. I read Steve B. writings, his thoughts on different topics we were discussing on John Wegter's email listing, which he had set up for ex-workers, workers and friends to share our thoughts, ideas. Only a few were invited to join this certain group.That's all very tidy Nathan. Steve shared a few thoughts on John Wegter's email list that didn't ring true in your mind. As a result, you think it's OK that he was expelled from the work and the fellowship. A broken man suffering depression with no money and no career. Each to their own I suppose.
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Post by nathan on Aug 17, 2017 7:27:56 GMT -5
I read Steve B. writings, his thoughts on different topics we were discussing on John Wegter's email listing, which he had set up for ex-workers, workers and friends to share our thoughts, ideas. Only a few were invited to join this certain group. That's all very tidy Nathan. Steve shared a few thoughts on John Wegter's email list that didn't ring true in your mind. As a result, you think it's OK that he was expelled from the work and the fellowship. A broken man suffering depression with no money and no career. Each to their own I suppose. Well, I just shared with what I remember about Steve B.... and it was his overseer excommunicated him from the ministry and fellowship. You don't get excommunicated from the ministry and fellowship at the same time, unless a worker did something really bad and seriously wrong, that the overseer felt this step had to be taken.
I was badly mistreated by the overseer, I had depression myself, with no money and no career after I left the work too! but I wasn't excommunicated from the fellowship.
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Post by nathan on Aug 17, 2017 7:37:06 GMT -5
Here is my understanding.... Jesus paid the ultimate ransom price, that why he said on Calvary's Cross, "It's finished." ALL paid in full, by his death on Calvary's Cross. Jesus works of the gospel is NOT finish, that why he sent Holy Spirit to continue His gospel work through the acts of the apostles and their followers until His returns.
Salvation is NOT a FIXED stated, but a continuous progression as we are serving Him, the blood of Jesus cleanses us daily, not just ONE time deals.
Scripture says the exact opposite. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2: 8-9 (Bold added) Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1 (bold added) ....and hundreds of other places. Salvation is salvation - it's the same as Yes means Yes. Paul's writing in Romans 8:1 is completely the opposite of your statement. Yes, we are being sanctified - being made Holy (Hebrews: 10-14). But we have been saved (past tense) by the grace of God. The attached notes which have been circulated widely for years by Jack Jackson are worth reading. So many workers in the last 20-30 years have erred from Scripture in telling people that they can/should have no confidence that they are saved in this life. We have discussed this so many times on TMB about once SAVED is always SAVED, the POTS= Preserve of the saints and other similar doctrines.... Once saved is NOT always SAVED... Remember, Judas Is. the who betrayed Jesus.
Heb. 6: 4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
I John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
I Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2017 15:39:47 GMT -5
I'm afraid I've contributed to hijacking the topic. I might just offer however that if the friends and workers really believed that salvation was a present state, they wouldn't say things like "lost out" when someone left the fellowship. There's a thing in Psychology where if you want to know what a person really believes or if you want to truly know their intent, just look at the outcome. Is that like "you'll know a tree by its fruit"?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2017 16:25:25 GMT -5
I posted this thread 11 years ago.... Jan 2, 2006 14:52:25 GMT -7 nathan7 said: Steve B. and I were on the same emailing list so I read many of his posts, beliefs, etc.... and something wasn't ring true about his posts. Yes, I heard he was in your parts of the world couple years ago. I wasn't surprised when I heard he left the ministry. I wish him the best. I knew something did not sound Right back then....
Steve suffered depression after the suicide of his brother. Some might see that as a reason to reject him. I have PMd Nathan and he still insists in putting the bad interpretation on Steve's back, in stead of putting the blAme where it belongs. Steve was attacked at his most vulnerable and I find it inhumane when it came to pass and I find Nathan being inhumane now after I informed him if what and by whom all came down the pike in Steve's excommunication. Nathan doesn't take my word for it though it's become public knowledge that who instigated all of that plethora of evil is or has been guilty of worse then tt Nathan, yourr going to choke to death ontrying to crucify Steve again just to spare your unrighteous indignation that the two by twos host evil doers in their ranks.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2017 16:35:56 GMT -5
I read Steve B. writings, his thoughts on different topics we were discussing on John Wegter's email listing, which he had set up for ex-workers, workers and friends to share our thoughts, ideas. Only a few were invited to join this certain group. That's all very tidy Nathan. Steve shared a few thoughts on John Wegter's email list that didn't ring true in your mind. As a result, you think it's OK that he was expelled from the work and the fellowship. A broken man suffering depression with no money and no career. Each to their own I suppose. Steve has always been very much a private person with his own personal issues, etc But he poured out much that wasn't personal but that which was truths he'd found in the Bible. YES, indeed depression tends to isolate the sufferers and for mean human reasons this is when people turn against someone suffering such depths of depression. It still angers me that Steve list support from those who should have stood at hisback when he needed it most. His bbrothers death was extremely traumatic to many, but not as traumatic as to Steve, though Steve's companion SP was very affected himself. Anybody with tender heart should be affected by such.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2017 16:38:29 GMT -5
That's all very tidy Nathan. Steve shared a few thoughts on John Wegter's email list that didn't ring true in your mind. As a result, you think it's OK that he was expelled from the work and the fellowship. A broken man suffering depression with no money and no career. Each to their own I suppose. Well, I just shared with what I remember about Steve B.... and it was his overseer excommunicated him from the ministry and fellowship. You don't get excommunicated from the ministry and fellowship at the same time, unless a worker did something really bad and seriously wrong, that the overseer felt this step had to be taken.
I was badly mistreated by the overseer, I had depression myself, with no money and no career after I left the work too! but I wasn't excommunicated from the fellowship. It wasn't "his" overseer who did such.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 17, 2017 18:10:24 GMT -5
Way I heard it, you met a Vietnamese woman at the mall and left the work suddenly and married her...
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2017 18:15:10 GMT -5
That's all very tidy Nathan. Steve shared a few thoughts on John Wegter's email list that didn't ring true in your mind. As a result, you think it's OK that he was expelled from the work and the fellowship. A broken man suffering depression with no money and no career. Each to their own I suppose. Steve has always been very much a private person with his own personal issues, etc But he poured out much that wasn't personal but that which was truths he'd found in the Bible. YES, indeed depression tends to isolate the sufferers and for mean human reasons this is when people turn against someone suffering such depths of depression. It still angers me that Steve list support from those who should have stood at hisback when he needed it most. His bbrothers death was extremely traumatic to many, but not as traumatic as to Steve, though Steve's companion SP was very affected himself. Anybody with tender heart should be affected by such. I've always said there are a lot of good people in this fellowship. But as a group we're not good at discerning between what is from man and what is from heaven. By our fruits we will be known. How do we treat the sick and the vulnerable?
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Post by nathan on Aug 17, 2017 18:39:02 GMT -5
Steve suffered depression after the suicide of his brother. Some might see that as a reason to reject him. I have PMd Nathan and he still insists in putting the bad interpretation on Steve's back, in stead of putting the blAme where it belongs. Steve was attacked at his most vulnerable and I find it inhumane when it came to pass and I find Nathan being inhumane now after I informed him if what and by whom all came down the pike in Steve's excommunication. Nathan doesn't take my word for it though it's become public knowledge that who instigated all of that plethora of evil is or has been guilty of worse then tt Nathan, yourr going to choke to death ontrying to crucify Steve again just to spare your unrighteous indignation that the two by twos host evil doers in their ranks. Like I wrote to you in PM... I don't want to discuss Steve B. anymore... That was long time ago. Steve is happy where he is and I am happy where I am at with my relationship with God and with the 2x2s fellowship. The 2x2s are NOT perfect group or people but we are God's work in progress... is NOT over until our last breath. God be merciful unto me a sinner.
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Post by nathan on Aug 17, 2017 18:41:19 GMT -5
Way I heard it, you met a woman at the mall and left the work suddenly and married her... You heard it WRONG.... hahaha I met my wife, at the mall are you kidding? Was I that desperate to meet and married someone who I met at the mall? What, are you CRAZY! You think that sound right to you? Cherie... By the way, You're off the topic, Cherie.... This is about Steve B. thread not about me.
Don't hijack! Cherie as you like to say...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2017 19:38:29 GMT -5
I've always said there are a lot of good people in this fellowship. But as a group we're not good at discerning between what is from man and what is from heaven. By our fruits we will be known. How do we treat the sick and the vulnerable? If the fellowship was full of fixits (and especially in the work!), I'd probably still be a part of it. Steve has shared his story (at least in some part) with us as well - sharingtheriches is right to say he was abandoned at the worst time of his life. Let us hope that, at our worst times, we are not cut off from almost everyone that we know. He actually still speaks very highly of many of the friends. I think he understands that the reason not everyone contacted him was not because of him. If any here want to reach out but are uncomfortable for any reason (especially those in the fellowship or in the work) send me a PM. He's dropping by later this month. Preferably though, just send him an email - Cherie provided it earlier. He isn't some monster or anything. I am better for knowing him. Hes an inspiration and great comforter!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2017 19:43:23 GMT -5
I've always said there are a lot of good people in this fellowship. But as a group we're not good at discerning between what is from man and what is from heaven. By our fruits we will be known. How do we treat the sick and the vulnerable? If the fellowship was full of fixits (and especially in the work!), I'd probably still be a part of it. Steve has shared his story (at least in some part) with us as well - sharingtheriches is right to say he was abandoned at the worst time of his life. Let us hope that, at our worst times, we are not cut off from almost everyone that we know. He actually still speaks very highly of many of the friends. I think he understands that the reason not everyone contacted him was not because of him. If any here want to reach out but are uncomfortable for any reason (especially those in the fellowship or in the work) send me a PM. He's dropping by later this month. Preferably though, just send him an email - Cherie provided it earlier. He isn't some monster or anything. I am better for knowing him. Yes, thank you fixit for being so fair minded on Steve's horrible experience. I'm just thankful he's grown so gracious and loving. I'd wanted to contact him before but happen to ask the wrong people and they upset me at their callous regard of someone so in need of compassion. I didn't know for a long time he'd gone to Australia. These folks weren't compassionate when I needed it either. Since then, they've learned what suffering is like to a small measure.
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Post by openingact34 on Aug 18, 2017 0:05:31 GMT -5
hmmmmmm... Are you sure? Excommunicated from the ministry and the fellowship at the same time? Wow! if that was true, then... I would love to hear the overseers side for sure.
I am absolutely certain. I heard it from Steve when he stayed in my home. He loved the fellowship but had to abide by the ruling. I think you might want to reconsider your memory. Are you sure that you aren't 'mistaken' about your interaction with Steve? Meeting with an excommunicated member or letting him stay in your home is automatic grounds for your own excommunication. Remember, @review005 has a target on your back already, but I'm sure you can set this straight. A faithful elder would obviously have nothing to do with someone who was put out by the workers.
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Post by fixit on Aug 18, 2017 0:29:14 GMT -5
I am absolutely certain. I heard it from Steve when he stayed in my home. He loved the fellowship but had to abide by the ruling. I think you might want to reconsider your memory. Are you sure that you aren't 'mistaken' about your interaction with Steve? Meeting with an excommunicated member or letting him stay in your home is automatic grounds for your own excommunication. Remember, @review005 has a target on your back already, but I'm sure you can set this straight. A faithful elder would obviously have nothing to do with someone who was put out by the workers. My memory is what it is. If I perish, I perish.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2017 8:57:40 GMT -5
I am absolutely certain. I heard it from Steve when he stayed in my home. He loved the fellowship but had to abide by the ruling. I think you might want to reconsider your memory. Are you sure that you aren't 'mistaken' about your interaction with Steve? Meeting with an excommunicated member or letting him stay in your home is automatic grounds for your own excommunication. Remember, @review005 has a target on your back already, but I'm sure you can set this straight. A faithful elder would obviously have nothing to do with someone who was put out by the workers. In Australia Steve's excommunication didn't go through, the friends didn't let it.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2017 14:32:02 GMT -5
In Australia Steve's excommunication didn't go through, the friends didn't let it. There is a trend of the friends not putting up with the workers' nonsense when it comes to "punishments". A good trend to continue. Never forget what the workers got away with when they had ultimate authority. Just read this morning how pride and power has ruined many ministers AND caused many churches to go defunct. Reminds me if a couple of young workers in the states who managed to be together because their older companions were conv hopping. They had the audacity to tell a former worker of some years, who'd married and was elder of a large church in a big city, that they had power over him and all so they decided that their word was law. That former worker/elder has no use for the system nor the workers. His entire family left the system and it wrecked his entire family. Yes, indeed those two young pipsqueak-still-wet-behind-the-ears-workers are responsible for a lot of damage. Pride and power took a toll.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2017 14:34:12 GMT -5
To be fair, I know of another two young workers who were forced into being companions that were totally opposite. Sadly I know one is married and I don't know about the other.
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