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Post by Dan on Dec 6, 2019 4:58:16 GMT -5
I believe the bible is much more than a claim, its an inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. It answers questions that science can't, and it gives every persons life purpose and meaning, not to mention hope. No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place.
We do have 4 separate accounts of Christ, while the gospels aren't identical, they don't conflict or contradict one another. We don't just have accounts of eye witnesses, we have the written reports of eyewitnesses, which serve as an affidavit (testimony) of individuals who wrote what they saw and heard. What do you suppose was the apostles motivation for writing the gospels? Persecution, affliction, imprisonment, beatings, and death? People just don't suffer such things to perpetuate a lie. Remember that the disciples were afraid and hid until they saw that Christ had risen, then once convinced, they boldly proclaimed the truth.
Keep in mind that Jesus was dead, so unlike your sample abductee, Christ could not have just wandered off. He was killed and witnesses verified that they saw him alive again. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 foretold in detail how and why he was killed, and that adds a ton of credibility to the gospels. Its received by faith, and there's good reasons why God requires us to come by faith. You may not believe Jesus even existed, but there's way too much evidence to conclude that it could have all of been some coordinated, organized, and elaborate hoax.
Sometimes we go by what makes sense, not just what can be proven. If you understand how a car starts and runs, you don't necessarily need to hear it start or see it run.
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Post by benar on Dec 6, 2019 6:34:17 GMT -5
No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place. I have those SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES study aid booklets students can buy to help them understand various writings. They carry those study aids at Barnes & Noble book stores and at college & university book stores. There are titles for hundreds of topics and subject matter these books cover, and I have study booklets for both the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT as well as other books, such as CATCHER IN THE RYE, DANDELOIN WINE by David Thoreau, etc. That word "motif" is used in every one of those study guides. I find the guides I have of the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT, degrade the Bible and dispel perceived factual information in the Bible as "myths" and "contradictions." The idea of "The Jesus Story" is used in both SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES. Benar's post here sounds like it is taken almost word for word out of one or these study guides and I know, for sure, the word "motif" was taken from there as well as the expression " The Jesus Story." The problem is those study aids turn one against the Bible just as they have done to Benar. I promise, mate, I have never even heard of those study guides. For me, it’s just been reading all sorts of things and learning to understand rudimentary logic.
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Post by benar on Dec 6, 2019 6:45:50 GMT -5
No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place.
We do have 4 separate accounts of Christ, while the gospels aren't identical, they don't conflict or contradict one another. We don't just have accounts of eye witnesses, we have the written reports of eyewitnesses, which serve as an affidavit (testimony) of individuals who wrote what they saw and heard. What do you suppose was the apostles motivation for writing the gospels? Persecution, affliction, imprisonment, beatings, and death? People just don't suffer such things to perpetuate a lie. Remember that the disciples were afraid and hid until they saw that Christ had risen, then once convinced, they boldly proclaimed the truth.
Keep in mind that Jesus was dead, so unlike your sample abductee, Christ could not have just wandered off. He was killed and witnesses verified that they saw him alive again. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 foretold in detail how and why he was killed, and that adds a ton of credibility to the gospels. Its received by faith, and there's good reasons why God requires us to come by faith. You may not believe Jesus even existed, but there's way too much evidence to conclude that it could have all of been some coordinated, organized, and elaborate hoax.
Sometimes we go by what makes sense, not just what can be proven. If you understand how a car starts and runs, you don't necessarily need to hear it start or see it run.
Dan, if god is beyond science and observation, then you are claiming to detect the undetectable. This is logically impossible. Do you don’t have knowledge of a god, you have a belief that you want to be true. Please do some study in formal logic. Particularly the subject of circular reasoning.
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Post by matisse on Dec 6, 2019 10:26:22 GMT -5
Jesus did say that when he returned he would divide the people as sheep from goats and he would send some to be punished.
Yes, indeed. At his second coming he will judge the nations and how they treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation. This is the sheep vs goat judgment. But back to about this generation shall not pass away, Jesus had been telling how anyone can tell when Jesus would return. It says he’ll send his angels first to gather his saints from the four corners of the earth, this is the rapture. But in order to know when the time is near for the rapture, the tribulation and then Jesus’ second coming; Jesus said that whoever saw that the fig tree branch was leading out, was the time to know it was near. The symbolism here is when a person(generation) that see Israel(fig tree is their national symbol) leaving out or being productive, then that generation that sees that fig tree leafing our will not die before Jesus comes again. Israel is leading as it hadn’t for over many many years; they just celebrated their 71st anniversary as a nation. They produce more fruit and vegetables then they need, shipping out all kinds. They’re far ahead in technology, etc. so it likely is at least part of our generations overlapping the just younger folks. The Bible indicates 70-80 years as a generation. Fig trees leaf out in the spring. It could be that simple.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 6, 2019 11:10:32 GMT -5
Yes, indeed. At his second coming he will judge the nations and how they treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation. This is the sheep vs goat judgment. But back to about this generation shall not pass away, Jesus had been telling how anyone can tell when Jesus would return. It says he’ll send his angels first to gather his saints from the four corners of the earth, this is the rapture. But in order to know when the time is near for the rapture, the tribulation and then Jesus’ second coming; Jesus said that whoever saw that the fig tree branch was leading out, was the time to know it was near. The symbolism here is when a person(generation) that see Israel(fig tree is their national symbol) leaving out or being productive, then that generation that sees that fig tree leafing our will not die before Jesus comes again. Israel is leading as it hadn’t for over many many years; they just celebrated their 71st anniversary as a nation. They produce more fruit and vegetables then they need, shipping out all kinds. They’re far ahead in technology, etc. so it likely is at least part of our generations overlapping the just younger folks. The Bible indicates 70-80 years as a generation. Fig trees leaf out in the spring. It could be that simple. The fig tree is the symbol of the nation of Israel. It was as a parable Jesus spoke to Jews who would understand his symbolism. The nation of Israel suffer infertility as a nation during the Holocaust years. The survivors were returned to their nation Israel, the land was awakened by God and those poor Holocaust survivors who arrived with no hope, few clothes and no possessions, saw the promise in their land. They were declared a nation in 1948. They just celebrated their 71 anniversary as a recognized nation. Their country has flourished, they have produced enough produce for their needs and ship out to other countries. This IS the fig branch leading out. This is what Jesus was speaking the parable about. The generation that sees this evidence will not pass away before he comes to rapture his saints, the 7 year tribulation sets on, then Jesus second coming. It all involves time. Not all of us will be living at the end of that 7 year tribulation but there will be some who are alive that will be.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 6, 2019 11:20:10 GMT -5
Yes, indeed. At his second coming he will judge the nations and how they treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation. This is the sheep vs goat judgment. But back to about this generation shall not pass away, Jesus had been telling how anyone can tell when Jesus would return. It says he’ll send his angels first to gather his saints from the four corners of the earth, this is the rapture. But in order to know when the time is near for the rapture, the tribulation and then Jesus’ second coming; Jesus said that whoever saw that the fig tree branch was leading out, was the time to know it was near. The symbolism here is when a person(generation) that see Israel(fig tree is their national symbol) leaving out or being productive, then that generation that sees that fig tree leafing our will not die before Jesus comes again. Israel is leading as it hadn’t for over many many years; they just celebrated their 71st anniversary as a nation. They produce more fruit and vegetables then they need, shipping out all kinds. They’re far ahead in technology, etc. so it likely is at least part of our generations overlapping the just younger folks. The Bible indicates 70-80 years as a generation. The National symbol of the state of Israel isn’t the fig tree. It is a seven branched candelabrum flanked by two olive branches. Matt10 As of 2005. However the fig tree is the symbol of God’s favor to the nation of Israel. A biblical symbol of Israel as God’s chosen nation. believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=1075
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 12:18:03 GMT -5
The National symbol of the state of Israel isn’t the fig tree. It is a seven branched candelabrum flanked by two olive branches. Matt10 As of 2005. However the fig tree is the symbol of God’s favor to the nation of Israel. A biblical symbol of Israel as God’s chosen nation. believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=1075You’re now moving from the realms of facts into beliefs. At least we’re now agreed that the National symbol of Israel is not the fig tree after all. Claiming that it was provides a good example of the lengths believers will go to to excuse the fact that 2000 years after the bible claimed Jesus would soon return, there is still no sign of him. I’ve lost count of the number of false predictions of Christ’s return there have been, each one followed by some hopelessly inadequate excuse for why Jesus did not return as prophesied. The real reason of course being that he didn't go away and therefore he won’t ever be returning whether you decide that a generation is 30 years, 70 years or 120 years. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 12:29:13 GMT -5
Are you expecting this response to be taken seriously? I ask you “if you have a single example other than a (likely made up) biblical story that proves that God is not bound by science” .... and you use as your example the (likely made up) biblical story of Jesus walking on water? Such a response defies belief and demonstrates the weakness of the case for the existence of the Christian God in reality. You clearly haven’t got any examples. Indeed your response corroborates the view that your claim that God is not bound by science is false. You do seem to be struggling with your man on the moon analogy. In 1719 no man had ever walked on the moon so there was no event to be explained and consequently no (supposed) miracle could have been considered to have taken place. Nor would the walking of man on the moon be considered a myth. Miracles are events that have occurred which require explanation. Myths are traditional stories or false beliefs. The resurrection (if it really did occur) fits the first category and (if it really didn’t occur) fits the second. Walking on the moon fits neither category whether in 1719 or 2019. Events that have not yet happened and which no one believes have happened are neither miracles or myths. However if a man ATE the moon that would be a miracle. And if you believed that a man HAD eaten the moon that would be a myth. No doubt you’ll be telling me that God COULD eat the moon as with God all things are possible. Finally you still haven’t provided me with anything that demonstrates that God is omnipotent. Perhaps we need to be clear as to what omnipotence means as you certainly weren’t clear on the meaning of miracle previously. Omnipotence means having unlimited power. I’ve previously demonstrated that God is clearly not omnipotent and could not be omnipotent by pointing out that God clearly lacks even the power to regrow a missing foot, finger, hand, leg, arm, thumb, ear or toe. Claiming that creation demonstrates that he is omnipotent won’t work. Even if your God did have a role in the creation of the universe (and there’s no evidence that he did) it would certainly not demonstrate that he was omnipotent. So I’m going to ask you again how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent (other than reading it in a book). Matt10
There is no source that can prove God by scientific method, God is beyond our limited observable knowledge, you can't seek physical evidence to prove a Spiritual Being. That's why the bible says; "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20). Where did you come from? Where did anything come from? Science doesn't have those answers because science is incapable of observing or explaining anything not bound by scientific law. Jesus put it simple; "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31).The proof of God cannot be explained by science because God is outside of science, that's why your having trouble trying to logically comprehend God, because God is not understood by scientific laws, theories, or hypothesis. Everything emanated from God (except sin), but God is not bound, defined, or ruled by creation, science, or nature. An Intelligent Designer of all that exist is not restricted or limited by what He created, that would be tantamount to me saying that if I built a dog house, I must be bound to live in it. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8&9).
My moon walking analogy was making the simple point that if you told people hundreds of years ago that men could fly or could hear someone talking from thousands of miles away, they would consider those statements as miraculous claims because it was impossible back then.. Its only accepted when its brought to fruition and an explanation makes it understandable. Miracles are labeled miracles because they have no explanation.
You have not demonstrated that God is not omnipotent, nor can you prove it anymore than I can prove that He is. You claim that God cannot regrow legs, fingers, etc, but you have no facts. I choose to believe that since God grew them in the first place, He's surely capable of regrowing them if He chose to. In fact, the bible says God will replace our entire body. Its accepted by faith, the bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient. You 'believe' the universe came into existence accidentally, I believe an all-powerful God created it. For me, it requires more blind faith to accept your accidental myth..
I will respond to this in point form. 1. You made the claim that your God is omnipotent but you have been unable to provide any basis for coming to this conclusion despite being invited twice to do so. It is not up to me to demonstrate that your God isn’t omnipotent. It isn’t up to me to disprove your claim. If I claim I can jump over a house it is not up to you to prove that I can’t. I should point out that I didn’t ask you to provide evidence that your God is omnipotent, I merely asked you how you came to the conclusion that he was. 2. I’m not sure why you are attempting to introduce a debate around how the universe was created. However since you have now raised it perhaps you can tell us whether you believe God created the universe from something or from nothing. And if he created it from something what is this something that you believe he created it from? 3. Please note that I have never suggested that I believe that the universe came into existence accidentally. I’m unclear therefore how you came to conclude that I did. 4. I have provided you with facts. It is a fact that God cannot regrow limbs, ears, toes, hands, feet or fingers. You just choose not to believe that he can’t in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 5. I continue to assert that your God is a theoretical book based God and you have so far failed to provide anything that indicates the contrary. Your continuing insistence on quoting from your religious book to support your claims about God simply confirms that your God (like Allah) is a theoretical book based God. I would suggest that the fact that he is a theoretical God is the real reason why he can’t be proved by scientific method. 6. I’m not sure what point you are attempting to make as regards your man in the moon analogy. I’ve already explained the definitions of miracle and myth. Miracles don’t happen. Myths never happened. Man walking in the moon is neither. Jesus ascending up to heaven is the latter. Matt10
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 12:36:39 GMT -5
No, it's not like that at all imo. He said he was returning before they died. He didn't. He wasn't promising his father was going to punish them when he 'got home'. you'll have to dig a little deeper than that.... I don't think I'm capable of digging any deeper because I truly don't know what you mean.
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 12:41:44 GMT -5
you'll have to dig a little deeper than that.... I don't think I'm capable of digging any deeper because I truly don't know what you mean. We “dig in” by diligent prayer. Ask God to reveal these things to you.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 12:44:09 GMT -5
No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place. We do have 4 separate accounts of Christ, while the gospels aren't identical, they don't conflict or contradict one another. We don't just have accounts of eye witnesses, we have the written reports of eyewitnesses, which serve as an affidavit (testimony) of individuals who wrote what they saw and heard. What do you suppose was the apostles motivation for writing the gospels? Persecution, affliction, imprisonment, beatings, and death? People just don't suffer such things to perpetuate a lie. Remember that the disciples were afraid and hid until they saw that Christ had risen, then once convinced, they boldly proclaimed the truth.
Keep in mind that Jesus was dead, so unlike your sample abductee, Christ could not have just wandered off. He was killed and witnesses verified that they saw him alive again. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 foretold in detail how and why he was killed, and that adds a ton of credibility to the gospels. Its received by faith, and there's good reasons why God requires us to come by faith. You may not believe Jesus even existed, but there's way too much evidence to conclude that it could have all of been some coordinated, organized, and elaborate hoax.
Sometimes we go by what makes sense, not just what can be proven. If you understand how a car starts and runs, you don't necessarily need to hear it start or see it run.
It is altogether possible that the reason why they saw him alive again is because he never died. That what they gave him in the sponge on the cross made him unconscious so that the soldiers didn't break his knees and he was taken down soon thereafter. He had rich supporters that asked for his body and there is no reason that he couldn't have survived, been healed and therefore showed again to his followers as alive. We know that the first gospel written, Mark, says nothing about a resurrection. We have some documentation that he left Israel because if he stayed he would be killed. There is a grave in India that they claim holds Jesus. I have no idea if any of it is true, but it makes a lot more sense than someone dying and then coming back to life. You might be interested in reading "Jesus Lived in India: His Unknown Life Before and After the Crucifixion". It is taken from some earlier documents that Buddhist monks had in their possession of the time when he visited Tibet/India in his 'lost years' and how he returned after his life was at risk in Israel.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 12:50:36 GMT -5
I don't think I'm capable of digging any deeper because I truly don't know what you mean. We “dig in” by diligent prayer. Ask God to reveal these things to you. You seem to forget that I am an atheist that doesn't believe in any gods so why would I try and pray to something I do not have any evidence for existing? I am beyond theists redemption. I once was a very devout believer that wanted to be a worker. Over the years I have studied and researched the origins of many gods and religions and the only conclusion I could come to is that we are good at creating gods that give us what we want, but not so good at looking at the existence of said gods logically. That's okay. I am not advocating for anyone not to believe. However, asking me to believe once it has become crystal clear that gods in their many forms do not exist, is not a possibility. You don't believe in any Gods that are not the Christian God I would presume? Why? Once you answer that, you likely have the answer of why I just go one more god than you do in my disbelief.
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 12:56:56 GMT -5
We “dig in” by diligent prayer. Ask God to reveal these things to you. You seem to forget that I am an atheist that doesn't believe in any gods so why would I try and pray to something I do not have any evidence for existing? I am beyond theists redemption. I once was a very devout believer that wanted to be a worker. Over the years I have studied and researched the origins of many gods and religions and the only conclusion I could come to is that we are good at creating gods that give us what we want, but not so good at looking at the existence of said gods logically. That's okay. I am not advocating for anyone not to believe. However, asking me to believe once it has become crystal clear that gods in their many forms do not exist, is not a possibility. You don't believe in any Gods that are not the Christian God I would presume? Why? Once you answer that, you likely have the answer of why I just go one more god than you do in my disbelief. One God has revealed himself to me- him will I follow. Sadly, all your studying out- more than likely caused all this confusion in your life. God is not the author of confusion, but IS the author and finisher of our faith. I have my hymn book open now to 196- verse one- “Help me to find Thee when I pray- O God this is my earnest plea; The way is hid,my hope is dead If, Lord, I cannot meet with Thee. God is the love of my life! I can not imagine going thru my life without his peace, joy, love guidance.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 13:00:17 GMT -5
You seem to forget that I am an atheist that doesn't believe in any gods so why would I try and pray to something I do not have any evidence for existing? I am beyond theists redemption. I once was a very devout believer that wanted to be a worker. Over the years I have studied and researched the origins of many gods and religions and the only conclusion I could come to is that we are good at creating gods that give us what we want, but not so good at looking at the existence of said gods logically. That's okay. I am not advocating for anyone not to believe. However, asking me to believe once it has become crystal clear that gods in their many forms do not exist, is not a possibility. You don't believe in any Gods that are not the Christian God I would presume? Why? Once you answer that, you likely have the answer of why I just go one more god than you do in my disbelief. One God has revealed himself to me- him will I follow. Sadly, all your studying out- more than likely caused all this confusion in your life. God is not the author of confusion, but IS the author and finisher of our faith. I have my hymn book open now to 196- verse one- “Help me to find Thee when I pray- O God this is my earnest plea; The way is hid,my hope is dead If, Lord, I cannot meet with Thee. God is the love of my life! I can not imagine going thru my life without his peace, joy, love guidance. Well you may think I'm confused, but for me it's the exact opposite. I am no longer confused. You are able to take things based on faith. I have no desire to anymore. We're very different people in that regard. And, that's okay. Hugs reborn.
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:02:57 GMT -5
One God has revealed himself to me- him will I follow. Sadly, all your studying out- more than likely caused all this confusion in your life. God is not the author of confusion, but IS the author and finisher of our faith. I have my hymn book open now to 196- verse one- “Help me to find Thee when I pray- O God this is my earnest plea; The way is hid,my hope is dead If, Lord, I cannot meet with Thee. God is the love of my life! I can not imagine going thru my life without his peace, joy, love guidance. Well you may think I'm confused, but for me it's the exact opposite. I am no longer confused. You are able to take things based on faith. I have no desire to anymore. We're very different people in that regard. And, that's okay. Hugs reborn. Someday- one day- A experience will come into your life that will be overwhelming to you. I hope that you will then realize that you need The One True God, and will humbly turn to him. Life is overwhelming to us all.
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Post by matisse on Dec 6, 2019 13:05:27 GMT -5
Fig trees leaf out in the spring. It could be that simple. The fig tree is the symbol of the nation of Israel. It was as a parable Jesus spoke to Jews who would understand his symbolism. The nation of Israel suffer infertility as a nation during the Holocaust years. The survivors were returned to their nation Israel, the land was awakened by God and those poor Holocaust survivors who arrived with no hope, few clothes and no possessions, saw the promise in their land. They were declared a nation in 1948. They just celebrated their 71 anniversary as a recognized nation. Their country has flourished, they have produced enough produce for their needs and ship out to other countries. This IS the fig branch leading out. This is what Jesus was speaking the parable about. The generation that sees this evidence will not pass away before he comes to rapture his saints, the 7 year tribulation sets on, then Jesus second coming. It all involves time. Not all of us will be living at the end of that 7 year tribulation but there will be some who are alive that will be. The national tree of Israel is the olive tree. I do wonder how many different schemes Christians have created through the ages to strengthen a hope that Jesus will return soon. Here are a few: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 13:08:20 GMT -5
Well you may think I'm confused, but for me it's the exact opposite. I am no longer confused. You are able to take things based on faith. I have no desire to anymore. We're very different people in that regard. And, that's okay. Hugs reborn. Someday- one day- A experience will come into your life that will be overwhelming to you. I hope that you will then realize that you need The One True God, and will humbly turn to him. Life is overwhelming to us all. I have had a lot of things happen to me that were overwhelming. But I am able to face them without God. I recognize that this is a scary place to be for theists. And I agree, it's not easy sometimes to know that there is no one out there that can help me. I have to depend on my strength and the help of others. The way I see it, belief in a God is a comfort and I get why people believe. But for me that belief comes at a great cost. It means I have to just believe something on faith. I no longer think that is necessary because I now know that I am capable and strong enough to face life without any Gods. That is huge! You have no idea how freeing that is. We're just different reborn.
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:12:27 GMT -5
Someday- one day- A experience will come into your life that will be overwhelming to you. I hope that you will then realize that you need The One True God, and will humbly turn to him. Life is overwhelming to us all. I have had a lot of things happen to me that were overwhelming. But I am able to face them without God. I recognize that this is a scary place to be for theists. And I agree, it's not easy sometimes to know that there is no one out there that can help me. I have to depend on my strength and the help of others. The way I see it, belief in a God is a comfort and I get why people believe. But for me that belief comes at a great cost. It means I have to just believe something on faith. I no longer think that is necessary because I now know that I am capable and strong enough to face life without any Gods. That is huge! You have no idea how freeing that is. We're just different reborn. God created us because he wanted a family- He calls us again and again to have a relationship with him. If we choose not to, we lose out in this life and horribly the next.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 13:21:19 GMT -5
I have had a lot of things happen to me that were overwhelming. But I am able to face them without God. I recognize that this is a scary place to be for theists. And I agree, it's not easy sometimes to know that there is no one out there that can help me. I have to depend on my strength and the help of others. The way I see it, belief in a God is a comfort and I get why people believe. But for me that belief comes at a great cost. It means I have to just believe something on faith. I no longer think that is necessary because I now know that I am capable and strong enough to face life without any Gods. That is huge! You have no idea how freeing that is. We're just different reborn. God created us because he wanted a family- He calls us again and again to have a relationship with him. If we choose not to, we lose out in this life and horribly the next. That is your belief. I don't share it.
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 13:21:24 GMT -5
You have not demonstrated that God is not omnipotent, nor can you prove it anymore than I can prove that He is. Assuming you believe in the bible, it demonstrated that god is not omnipotent in Judges 1:19.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:26:46 GMT -5
You have not demonstrated that God is not omnipotent, nor can you prove it anymore than I can prove that He is. Assuming you believe in the bible, it demonstrated that god is not omnipotent in Judges 1:19. Jdg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. depends on who the HE is in that sentence....
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 13:30:30 GMT -5
Someday- one day- A experience will come into your life that will be overwhelming to you. I hope that you will then realize that you need The One True God, and will humbly turn to him. Life is overwhelming to us all. You need to step back and look at how this looks to someone who does not believe in a deity or deities. If I claimed that a mighty unicorn could help you in your time of need and even save you can you envision a situation where you would humbly turn to the unicorn and actually believe it would be a source of help that you need in your time of need? Why do you feel unbelievers would gain any sense of comfort from an entity in which they do not believe and for which there has never been any evidence of their existence outside of the minds and imaginations of the believers?
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:33:03 GMT -5
Someday- one day- A experience will come into your life that will be overwhelming to you. I hope that you will then realize that you need The One True God, and will humbly turn to him. Life is overwhelming to us all. You need to step back and look at how this looks to someone who does not believe in a deity or deities. If I claimed that a mighty unicorn could help you in your time of need and even save you can you envision a situation where you would humbly turn to the unicorn and actually believe it would be a source of help that you need in your time of need? Why do you feel unbelievers would gain any sense of comfort from an entity in which they do not believe and for which there has never been any evidence of their existence outside of the minds and imaginations of the believers? Because I believe God is a ALL GAIN! This is my actual testimony and I own it!
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 13:38:34 GMT -5
Assuming you believe in the bible, it demonstrated that god is not omnipotent in Judges 1:19. Jdg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. depends on who the HE is in that sentence.... Not really. God was on the side of Judah and that team, no matter which one was 'he', could not defeat the iron chariots. Hardly an example of omnipotence. Do you think god abandoned Judah?
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 13:40:33 GMT -5
You need to step back and look at how this looks to someone who does not believe in a deity or deities. If I claimed that a mighty unicorn could help you in your time of need and even save you can you envision a situation where you would humbly turn to the unicorn and actually believe it would be a source of help that you need in your time of need? Why do you feel unbelievers would gain any sense of comfort from an entity in which they do not believe and for which there has never been any evidence of their existence outside of the minds and imaginations of the believers? Because I believe God is a ALL GAIN! This is my actual testimony and I own it! But that does not explain why you think adversity would cause someone to turn to an entity in which they do not believe.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 13:40:58 GMT -5
I have had a lot of things happen to me that were overwhelming. But I am able to face them without God. I recognize that this is a scary place to be for theists. And I agree, it's not easy sometimes to know that there is no one out there that can help me. I have to depend on my strength and the help of others. The way I see it, belief in a God is a comfort and I get why people believe. But for me that belief comes at a great cost. It means I have to just believe something on faith. I no longer think that is necessary because I now know that I am capable and strong enough to face life without any Gods. That is huge! You have no idea how freeing that is. We're just different reborn. God created us because he wanted a family- He calls us again and again to have a relationship with him. If we choose not to, we lose out in this life and horribly the next. If he wanted a family why does he feel the need to send his creation to hell just because they don't believe in him? Allah does the same and some other gods that people have worshiped. It would seem to me that if he really didn't couldn't allow them in heaven for eternity, that the more loving thing to do instead of torturing them forever, would be to annihilate them. But he doesn't. He allows torture forever as a punishment. But the whole reason behind punishment is to rehabilitate the one that did wrong. But that doesn't even become an option in God's world. You go to hell and you stay there forever being punished no matter how good you might have been on earth. All because you didn't believe in him. No chance for rehabilitation so why punish?
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:43:46 GMT -5
Because I believe God is a ALL GAIN! This is my actual testimony and I own it! But that does not explain why you think adversity would cause someone to turn to an entity in which they do not believe. Often times it is extreme experiences that reveal to us, that we have come to the end of ourselves. Not all choose to turn to God, but I have certainly enjoyed the testimonies of many who have. It is of course my hope, prayer that a individual would!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:45:54 GMT -5
Jdg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. depends on who the HE is in that sentence.... Not really. God was on the side of Judah and that team, no matter which one was 'he', could not defeat the iron chariots. Hardly an example of omnipotence. Do you think god abandoned Judah? as usual for the jews of the time they probably did something wrong even when God backs them and God was not above withdrawing support from the jews if they were doing something wrong even if it was for only one battle...if you read the whole chapter you'll see they were not doing the conquest correctly anyways as the Lord asked them to do...
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