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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 21:51:12 GMT -5
Not big on history, always preferred science. Looking forward, not back.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 4, 2019 22:25:17 GMT -5
Dan, you say that "prophecy also predicted the Jews would reject Christ (Isaiah 6:9-10)" Isaiah 6:9-10 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.King James Version (KJV)
What I can't understand is just can anyone see those verses to mean anything about Jesus being rejected by the Jews?
Its true that a person can misconstrue verses to mean or refer to different things, but I'm relatively certain that Isaiah 6:10 is a prophecy that Israel will reject their messiah due to spiritual blindness. The New Testament confirms that this occurred; Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (John 12:39-41, margin refers to Is 6:10).
God blinded them and hardened their hearts because of their disobedience. Thus Jesus quoted what Isaiah had prophesied. Which of course God had told Isaiah it would happen. And yes, you’re right in that because of their blinded eyes and hardened hearts they did not receive Jesus. Number one the fact he claimed to be the Son of God, that was blasphemy in their minds. Plus if he was the Son of God he sure couldn’t be the Messiah because theMessiah according to their understanding would be a man though with extraordinary abilities/powers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 22:54:04 GMT -5
It’s truly remarkable that in response to an argument that says that the resurrection of Jesus is a made up story youl claim that the fact that the tomb was mysteriously empty provides credible evidence that it wasn’t. You’re basically confirming the point made elsewhere that belief in the bible is an exercise in circular thinking and that the bible must be true because it says so. There is clearly no other evidence to support the bible being true and therefore the believer must rely on the bible itself as evidence. It’s a completely different topic of course but I am interested to know how you came to the conclusion that God is not bound by science. What evidence do you have to show that God is not bound by science? Do you have a single example other than a (likely made up) biblical story that proves that God is not bound by science? I had a long and interesting debate with your fellow believer Wally last week in which he conceded that I could use the term ‘magic’ to describe how (his) God operated as it was impossible for him to differentiate between the process by which magic operated and the process by which (his) God operated. You appear to be making a similar point in that magic is not bound by science. We seem to be moving swiftly towards the conclusion that the Christian God is a magician with magical powers. If this is in fact what you are claiming I would find it very difficult to argue against it and there is certainly more evidence to support the view that God is a magician than the view that God is all powerful and has the power to heal amputated limbs. Matt10
I'm simply stating that the body of Christ was never found, despite the Pharisee's being aware of the prophecy and asking Pontius Pilate to guard the tomb. Evidence swings both ways, if someone tells me that Christ didn't resurrect, my first question is where's the body? I do agree, the bible is its own best evidence.
God is bound by nothing; "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26). God is Spirit, not bound by space, matter, time, etc. Science is limited to physical observation, God is beyond that.
A miracle is simply something we don't understand, but once its understood, its not a miracle anymore, i.e; a man walking on the moon would be construed as a miracle or myth a few hundred years ago.. God is the uncaused cause of all that is, so nothing is a miracle once a person believes that. God is not a magician, He's simply omnipotent.
Having made the claim that God is not bound by science you appear to be struggling to come up with any evidence whatsoever to support that claim or to come up with even a single example that demonstrates that God is not bound by science. I think that it is therefore safe to conclude that God is very much bound by science and that you simply made that up. Hopefully it should be starting to come clear how easy it is to make wild unsubstantiated statements and how much more difficult it is to back them up. Hopefully what should at some stage also become clear is the difference between things that are true and things that are made up. I have to say that comparing man walking on the moon to Jesus ascending up to heaven makes no sense whatsoever. One has a scientific explanation, the other clearly doesn’t. No one has ever claimed that man walking on the moon is a miracle any more than one has claimed that television or the wind up watch is a miracle. I can see how the believing Christian is desperate to equate things such as the resurrection and the ascension to things that have perfectly rational explanations in an attempt to give some credibility to these stories. Butt the bottom line is that these stories are not credible, they are incredible. So incredible that they have to be made up. Just like your definition of miracle is made up. And claiming that ‘with God all things are possible’ as a means of trying to give credibility to these stories simply won’t work. We all know that God can’t even regrow your missing little toe should you be unfortunate enough to lose it. It is clear that your God is a theoretical God, one to whom you simply attribute any power or trait that suits your argument irrespective of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Basically it’s a made up God whose powers are merely theoretical like the powers of all good fictional characters in books. I may as well continue to demonstrate that your God is merely a book based theoretical God by asking you how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 22:56:12 GMT -5
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Post by benar on Dec 4, 2019 22:58:46 GMT -5
A good story book Wally, the way my mind works, I try and stick with reality and facts. Jesus Christ does't that make sense. a large portion of history is in books and documents and not material or archeological you must have trouble believing much of history.... The difference is, most of these accounts have contemporary accounts or are at least based in reality. Talking animals and people rising from the dead are extraordinary claims. These require extraordinary evidence in order to be taken seriously. Then, of course, there is the way the exploits of Jesus appear to be re-telling of older myths, which is suggestive of plagiarism.
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Post by benar on Dec 4, 2019 23:07:50 GMT -5
Dan Do you understand that the Bible is a claim, it is not evidence? If I write an account in which the main character is abducted by aliens, is that evidence that there actually was an abduction? Or is it a claim that there was an abduction and to determine its validity we would need actual evidence?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 23:19:41 GMT -5
Dan Do you understand that the Bible is a claim, it is not evidence? If I write an account in which the main character is abducted by aliens, is that evidence that there actually was an abduction? Or is it a claim that there was an abduction and to determine its validity we would need actual evidence? I think the evidence that this story is true can be found by asking the question where is the man? Clearly he is not here and therefore he must have been abducted. Remember claiming that someone has been abducted is not likely something that someone would make up. It’s too fantastic a story to be made up. And also there were clearly witnesses to the abduction otherwise how would we have known the abduction had taken place. You also have to remember that with aliens all things are possible and that the powers of aliens are not bound by science. Matt10
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 4, 2019 23:29:43 GMT -5
What's the difference? He obviously told them he would return within some of their lifespans. Since they are dead and he hasn't returned I don't understand your argument? its like when your mother punishes you then says wait till your father gets home and you'll really get it...the taste of death isn't your first death its the 2nd death.... Interesting way to promote child abuse.
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Post by Dan on Dec 5, 2019 0:51:16 GMT -5
I'm simply stating that the body of Christ was never found, despite the Pharisee's being aware of the prophecy and asking Pontius Pilate to guard the tomb. Evidence swings both ways, if someone tells me that Christ didn't resurrect, my first question is where's the body? I do agree, the bible is its own best evidence.
God is bound by nothing; "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26). God is Spirit, not bound by space, matter, time, etc. Science is limited to physical observation, God is beyond that.
A miracle is simply something we don't understand, but once its understood, its not a miracle anymore, i.e; a man walking on the moon would be construed as a miracle or myth a few hundred years ago.. God is the uncaused cause of all that is, so nothing is a miracle once a person believes that. God is not a magician, He's simply omnipotent.
Having made the claim that God is not bound by science you appear to be struggling to come up with any evidence whatsoever to support that claim or to come up with even a single example that demonstrates that God is not bound by science. I think that it is therefore safe to conclude that God is very much bound by science and that you simply made that up. Hopefully it should be starting to come clear how easy it is to make wild unsubstantiated statements and how much more difficult it is to back them up. Hopefully what should at some stage also become clear is the difference between things that are true and things that are made up. I have to say that comparing man walking on the moon to Jesus ascending up to heaven makes no sense whatsoever. One has a scientific explanation, the other clearly doesn’t. No one has ever claimed that man walking on the moon is a miracle any more than one has claimed that television or the wind up watch is a miracle. I can see how the believing Christian is desperate to equate things such as the resurrection and the ascension to things that have perfectly rational explanations in an attempt to give some credibility to these stories. Butt the bottom line is that these stories are not credible, they are incredible. So incredible that they have to be made up. Just like your definition of miracle is made up. And claiming that ‘with God all things are possible’ as a means of trying to give credibility to these stories simply won’t work. We all know that God can’t even regrow your missing little toe should you be unfortunate enough to lose it. It is clear that your God is a theoretical God, one to whom you simply attribute any power or trait that suits your argument irrespective of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Basically it’s a made up God whose powers are merely theoretical like the powers of all good fictional characters in books. I may as well continue to demonstrate that your God is merely a book based theoretical God by asking you how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent. Matt10
You have Newtons Law of Gravity, you have Jesus defying gravity by walking on water, so its clear that God is not bound by science. Christ also calm the storm at sea, whereas God is not bound by nature either, or anything else for that matter.
My analogy of 'man walking on the moon' was simply to illustrate that if you told someone in 1719 that men could walk on the moon, they would consider it a wild myth because it would be as much of an impossible miracle as restoring a blind mans sight. When things have no rational explanation, they are viewed as so incredible that they have to be made up.
All things are possible for God, that was the whole point of performing miracles, to convince people in that first century apostolic age of the truth and establish the gospel.
Creation itself demonstrates the omnipotence of God. Of course, its received by faith, but there is evidence that suggest its true, mainly the fulfillment of prophecy such as the examples I mentioned from Daniel and Isaiah. Both prophesies were historically proven correct, neither relied on another biblical story for confirmation.
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Post by Dan on Dec 5, 2019 1:18:07 GMT -5
Dan Do you understand that the Bible is a claim, it is not evidence? If I write an account in which the main character is abducted by aliens, is that evidence that there actually was an abduction? Or is it a claim that there was an abduction and to determine its validity we would need actual evidence?
I believe the bible is much more than a claim, its an inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. It answers questions that science can't, and it gives every persons life purpose and meaning, not to mention hope.
Imagine that 4 other people wrote the exact same account as you did about the character in your book being abducted by aliens, imagine that many witnesses testified that it was true, and imagine that the abducted character was in fact, gone.. Identical reports of what happened, witnesses verifying it, and physical evidence validating it.. In a court of law, all this would be accepted as actual evidence. Its the same with another abduction; "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven" (Luke 24:51)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 2:32:44 GMT -5
Having made the claim that God is not bound by science you appear to be struggling to come up with any evidence whatsoever to support that claim or to come up with even a single example that demonstrates that God is not bound by science. I think that it is therefore safe to conclude that God is very much bound by science and that you simply made that up. Hopefully it should be starting to come clear how easy it is to make wild unsubstantiated statements and how much more difficult it is to back them up. Hopefully what should at some stage also become clear is the difference between things that are true and things that are made up. I have to say that comparing man walking on the moon to Jesus ascending up to heaven makes no sense whatsoever. One has a scientific explanation, the other clearly doesn’t. No one has ever claimed that man walking on the moon is a miracle any more than one has claimed that television or the wind up watch is a miracle. I can see how the believing Christian is desperate to equate things such as the resurrection and the ascension to things that have perfectly rational explanations in an attempt to give some credibility to these stories. Butt the bottom line is that these stories are not credible, they are incredible. So incredible that they have to be made up. Just like your definition of miracle is made up. And claiming that ‘with God all things are possible’ as a means of trying to give credibility to these stories simply won’t work. We all know that God can’t even regrow your missing little toe should you be unfortunate enough to lose it. It is clear that your God is a theoretical God, one to whom you simply attribute any power or trait that suits your argument irrespective of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Basically it’s a made up God whose powers are merely theoretical like the powers of all good fictional characters in books. I may as well continue to demonstrate that your God is merely a book based theoretical God by asking you how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent. Matt10
You have Newtons Law of Gravity, you have Jesus defying gravity by walking on water, so its clear that God is not bound by science. Christ also calm the storm at sea, whereas God is not bound by nature either, or anything else for that matter.
My analogy of 'man walking on the moon' was simply to illustrate that if you told someone in 1719 that men could walk on the moon, they would consider it a wild myth because it would be as much of an impossible miracle as restoring a blind mans sight. When things have no rational explanation, they are viewed as so incredible that they have to be made up.
All things are possible for God, that was the whole point of performing miracles, to convince people in that first century apostolic age of the truth and establish the gospel.
Creation itself demonstrates the omnipotence of God. Of course, its received by faith, but there is evidence that suggest its true, mainly the fulfillment of prophecy such as the examples I mentioned from Daniel and Isaiah. Both prophesies were historically proven correct, neither relied on another biblical story for confirmation.
Are you expecting this response to be taken seriously? I ask you “if you have a single example other than a (likely made up) biblical story that proves that God is not bound by science” .... and you use as your example the (likely made up) biblical story of Jesus walking on water? Such a response defies belief and demonstrates the weakness of the case for the existence of the Christian God in reality. You clearly haven’t got any examples. Indeed your response corroborates the view that your claim that God is not bound by science is false. You do seem to be struggling with your man on the moon analogy. In 1719 no man had ever walked on the moon so there was no event to be explained and consequently no (supposed) miracle could have been considered to have taken place. Nor would the walking of man on the moon be considered a myth. Miracles are events that have occurred which require explanation. Myths are traditional stories or false beliefs. The resurrection (if it really did occur) fits the first category and (if it really didn’t occur) fits the second. Walking on the moon fits neither category whether in 1719 or 2019. Events that have not yet happened and which no one believes have happened are neither miracles or myths. However if a man ATE the moon that would be a miracle. And if you believed that a man HAD eaten the moon that would be a myth. No doubt you’ll be telling me that God COULD eat the moon as with God all things are possible. Finally you still haven’t provided me with anything that demonstrates that God is omnipotent. Perhaps we need to be clear as to what omnipotence means as you certainly weren’t clear on the meaning of miracle previously. Omnipotence means having unlimited power. I’ve previously demonstrated that God is clearly not omnipotent and could not be omnipotent by pointing out that God clearly lacks even the power to regrow a missing foot, finger, hand, leg, arm, thumb, ear or toe. Claiming that creation demonstrates that he is omnipotent won’t work. Even if your God did have a role in the creation of the universe (and there’s no evidence that he did) it would certainly not demonstrate that he was omnipotent. So I’m going to ask you again how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent (other than reading it in a book). Matt10
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Post by jetmech on Dec 5, 2019 4:04:26 GMT -5
Lately even before finding this site I’ve been making excuses to not go to meetings. I stress so much about finding something to speak on no matter how much I read every day. After finding this site and the history if the “truth” I am in shock and am more confused than ever. I left the truth at 16 and came back 2 years ago. Professed a year ago and still feel like I know nothing. I was led to believe this is the only way and many in my meeting speak of this and speak how glad that they’re no part of worldly churches. Workers speak of working for salvation and I’m not even sure how to work for it. Jon knockemous (idk how to spell his last name I know I butchered it) spoke in great length about Trinity and how it is all wrong when I was a little girl.I remember he had scripture to back it up I didn’t memorize which cause I was like 12 at the time. Gloria Edwards spoke of workers being apostles and those professing as disciples of Jesus. At the time it made perfect sense they were teachers of Christ. I am just finding out these things could very much not be true. I even have new questions like what is the Holy Spirit? I know it’s something to do with god and getting it if I have the right spirit but idk how to obtain it or what exactly it is. I live an hour away from every meeting and the only time I can meet with friends is if I drive an hour or more away. I’m left in the dark a lot idek which workers are in my area no worker has spoken since convention time. I live on military base so workers don’t stay which I understand due to the difficulty of getting passed to get on bases. Plus my husband doesn’t profess (married before coming back to meeting) and has a huge TV in living room which they wouldn’t appreciate. I truly feel confused and alone. I can’t speak to my parents of this I know they would worry of me “falling out” again after I had just came back to the fold. Idk why I’m posting I just want to share with someone who doesn’t know me and wouldn’t pass judgement on my salvation. I just now found this post by Cider and enjoyed reading it. I'd like to say that I grew up in the truth too, and I had some of the same concerns as Cider has. What bothers me is the extreme guilt some of the workers place upon people. Does anyone know of any place in the Bible that portrays guilt and the guilt that some of the workers and friends place upon the friends? Before I went into aviation as a career I studied to become an elementary school teacher. We learned in child psychology that children lie to feel safe. Many times children feel threatened and the first thing they do to escape the mental stress of the threat at hand is to lie, and this is true of both male and female children. Lies stem from insecurity. Making excuses not to go to meetings is really synonomous with lying. It's a way of "escape" ... in my opinion. How many people fled Jesus due to guilt Or made up excuses not to be there? Jesus was an excellent teacher. He taught with love and understanding, and he didn't make people feel guilty. After he asked the accusers of the prostitute " ... who among them was without sin ..." He asked them to cast the first stone, and as they left one by one, he asked the prostitute very simply " ... where are thine accusers ...?" He didn't lecture her nor cast guilt upon her. He told her simply " ... go and sin no more ..." I think this is a remarkable illustration of how Jesus taught. People wanted to be in his presence because he taught without inflicting guilt on people, and he had a way of making people want to follow him. This is the sign of a good leader even in businesses today. They have a knack for making their subordinates want to follow them, and making orhers want to jump through hoops for them. I believe Cider has brought up some excellent points here. Recently an elderly ex-worker, who I hadn't seen for years, came with her husband to a restaurant near my work place and met with me. She was laughing about a memory of a time I was a little boy and she'd asked me what I would do if GOD were looking for me and my answer was very quick and I'd responded " ... I would HIDE from God ..." I believe what she had unwittingly revealed to me was that even as a young child I was being taught to feel guilty and to be afraid of God. Later on in my life I made up excuses to miss meetings and it was strictly due to "guilt trips" being placed upon me. Yet, I still LOVED studying the Bible on my own, because when I study the Bible I perceive love there. I don't feel guilt when I study the Bible on my own I feel accepted, loved, and valued when I study the teachings of Jesus Christ as well as all the other teachers mentioned in the Bible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 5:53:40 GMT -5
You have Newtons Law of Gravity, you have Jesus defying gravity by walking on water, so its clear that God is not bound by science. Christ also calm the storm at sea, whereas God is not bound by nature either, or anything else for that matter.
My analogy of 'man walking on the moon' was simply to illustrate that if you told someone in 1719 that men could walk on the moon, they would consider it a wild myth because it would be as much of an impossible miracle as restoring a blind mans sight. When things have no rational explanation, they are viewed as so incredible that they have to be made up.
All things are possible for God, that was the whole point of performing miracles, to convince people in that first century apostolic age of the truth and establish the gospel.
Creation itself demonstrates the omnipotence of God. Of course, its received by faith, but there is evidence that suggest its true, mainly the fulfillment of prophecy such as the examples I mentioned from Daniel and Isaiah. Both prophesies were historically proven correct, neither relied on another biblical story for confirmation.
Are you expecting this response to be taken seriously? I ask you “if you have a single example other than a (likely made up) biblical story that proves that God is not bound by science” .... and you use as your example the (likely made up) biblical story of Jesus walking on water? Such a response defies belief and demonstrates the weakness of the case for the existence of the Christian God in reality. You clearly haven’t got any examples. Indeed your response corroborates the view that your claim that God is not bound by science is false. You do seem to be struggling with your man on the moon analogy. In 1719 no man had ever walked on the moon so there was no event to be explained and consequently no (supposed) miracle could have been considered to have taken place. Nor would the walking of man on the moon be considered a myth. Miracles are events that have occurred which require explanation. Myths are traditional stories or false beliefs. The resurrection (if it really did occur) fits the first category and (if it really didn’t occur) fits the second. Walking on the moon fits neither category whether in 1719 or 2019. Events that have not yet happened and which no one believes have happened are neither miracles or myths. However if a man ATE the moon that would be a miracle. And if you believed that a man HAD eaten the moon that would be a myth. No doubt you’ll be telling me that God COULD eat the moon as with God all things are possible. Finally you still haven’t provided me with anything that demonstrates that God is omnipotent. Perhaps we need to be clear as to what omnipotence means as you certainly weren’t clear on the meaning of miracle previously. Omnipotence means having unlimited power. I’ve previously demonstrated that God is clearly not omnipotent and could not be omnipotent by pointing out that God clearly lacks even the power to regrow a missing foot, finger, hand, leg, arm, thumb, ear or toe. Claiming that creation demonstrates that he is omnipotent won’t work. Even if your God did have a role in the creation of the universe (and there’s no evidence that he did) it would certainly not demonstrate that he was omnipotent. So I’m going to ask you again how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent (other than reading it in a book). Matt10 you remind me of my great uncle tubby the town drunk he would walk repeatedly into walls no mater how much it hurt or damaged him. your doing the same thing with the wall of disbelief and there is little anyone can do but let you continue on your merry way....ENJOY!
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Post by benar on Dec 5, 2019 6:13:06 GMT -5
Dan Do you understand that the Bible is a claim, it is not evidence? If I write an account in which the main character is abducted by aliens, is that evidence that there actually was an abduction? Or is it a claim that there was an abduction and to determine its validity we would need actual evidence? I believe the bible is much more than a claim, its an inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. It answers questions that science can't, and it gives every persons life purpose and meaning, not to mention hope. No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place.
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Post by jetmech on Dec 5, 2019 11:11:15 GMT -5
I believe the bible is much more than a claim, its an inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. It answers questions that science can't, and it gives every persons life purpose and meaning, not to mention hope. No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place. I have those SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES study aid booklets students can buy to help them understand various writings. They carry those study aids at Barnes & Noble book stores and at college & university book stores. There are titles for hundreds of topics and subject matter these books cover, and I have study booklets for both the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT as well as other books, such as CATCHER IN THE RYE, DANDELOIN WINE by David Thoreau, etc. That word "motif" is used in every one of those study guides. I find the guides I have of the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT, degrade the Bible and dispel perceived factual information in the Bible as "myths" and "contradictions." The idea of "The Jesus Story" is used in both SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES. Benar's post here sounds like it is taken almost word for word out of one or these study guides and I know, for sure, the word "motif" was taken from there as well as the expression " The Jesus Story." The problem is those study aids turn one against the Bible just as they have done to Benar.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 11:31:27 GMT -5
Are you expecting this response to be taken seriously? I ask you “if you have a single example other than a (likely made up) biblical story that proves that God is not bound by science” .... and you use as your example the (likely made up) biblical story of Jesus walking on water? Such a response defies belief and demonstrates the weakness of the case for the existence of the Christian God in reality. You clearly haven’t got any examples. Indeed your response corroborates the view that your claim that God is not bound by science is false. You do seem to be struggling with your man on the moon analogy. In 1719 no man had ever walked on the moon so there was no event to be explained and consequently no (supposed) miracle could have been considered to have taken place. Nor would the walking of man on the moon be considered a myth. Miracles are events that have occurred which require explanation. Myths are traditional stories or false beliefs. The resurrection (if it really did occur) fits the first category and (if it really didn’t occur) fits the second. Walking on the moon fits neither category whether in 1719 or 2019. Events that have not yet happened and which no one believes have happened are neither miracles or myths. However if a man ATE the moon that would be a miracle. And if you believed that a man HAD eaten the moon that would be a myth. No doubt you’ll be telling me that God COULD eat the moon as with God all things are possible. Finally you still haven’t provided me with anything that demonstrates that God is omnipotent. Perhaps we need to be clear as to what omnipotence means as you certainly weren’t clear on the meaning of miracle previously. Omnipotence means having unlimited power. I’ve previously demonstrated that God is clearly not omnipotent and could not be omnipotent by pointing out that God clearly lacks even the power to regrow a missing foot, finger, hand, leg, arm, thumb, ear or toe. Claiming that creation demonstrates that he is omnipotent won’t work. Even if your God did have a role in the creation of the universe (and there’s no evidence that he did) it would certainly not demonstrate that he was omnipotent. So I’m going to ask you again how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent (other than reading it in a book). Matt10 you remind me of my great uncle tubby the town drunk he would walk repeatedly into walls no mater how much it hurt or damaged him. your doing the same thing with the wall of disbelief and there is little anyone can do but let you continue on your merry way....ENJOY! The great thing about the wall of disbelief is no matter how often you bang into it, it remains standing. The wall of disbelief is impenetrable. It is like a house built upon a rock. The wall of belief however is like a house built upon the sand. It can easily crumble and fall once it is exposed to truth, and when it does, great is its fall. There are many here who once put their faith in the wall of 2x2 Christian belief until truth came and washed it away. The wall of disbelief is built on science, evidence, truth and facts. The wall of belief however is built on religious books, dubious claims of revelation, faith, far fetched miracles and wild eyed myths. It is a wise man who builds his house upon the rock of disbelief for when the rain comes down and the floods arrive and the wind blows and beats upon it, it doesn’t fall. Matt10
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Post by snow on Dec 5, 2019 13:18:54 GMT -5
What's the difference? He obviously told them he would return within some of their lifespans. Since they are dead and he hasn't returned I don't understand your argument? its like when your mother punishes you then says wait till your father gets home and you'll really get it...the taste of death isn't your first death its the 2nd death.... No, it's not like that at all imo. He said he was returning before they died. He didn't. He wasn't promising his father was going to punish them when he 'got home'.
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Post by snow on Dec 5, 2019 13:25:51 GMT -5
No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place. I have those SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES study aid booklets students can buy to help them understand various writings. They carry those study aids at Barnes & Noble book stores and at college & university book stores. There are titles for hundreds of topics and subject matter these books cover, and I have study booklets for both the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT as well as other books, such as CATCHER IN THE RYE, DANDELOIN WINE by David Thoreau, etc. That word "motif" is used in every one of those study guides. I find the guides I have of the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT, degrade the Bible and dispel perceived factual information in the Bible as "myths" and "contradictions." The idea of "The Jesus Story" is used in both SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES. Benar's post here sounds like it is taken almost word for word out of one or these study guides and I know, for sure, the word "motif" was taken from there as well as the expression " The Jesus Story." The problem is those study aids turn one against the Bible just as they have done to Benar. Yes research and study into religions certainly does turn one into a non believer. The more you learn the more you know that Gods existing is very improbable and I don't see any point in believing on faith.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2019 15:59:16 GMT -5
No, that would be another claim - that it is the inspired record of God's dealings with mankind. You really need to understand this point, Dan. Life's meaning is what we give it. You determine that your 'meaning' is to follow the Bible, others may find meaning in saving the environment. Others still may find meaning in amassing as much money as they can. We give our lives meaning. But Dan, we don't have 4 accounts exactly the same. We have contradictory accounts (despite your deluded assertion that the Bible contains no contradictions). Reports of eyewitnesses are not eyewitness accounts. Again, you misunderstand the difference between a claim and evidence. If my story wrote of the abduction being witnessed by 500 people, that adds nothing to the validity of it. It is just another claim, for which we need evidence... Like the actual testimonies for example. If my story said that the man was abducted and did not return, the fact that we cannot locate the man now does not prove the event took place. The man may simply have run away, or perhaps he never existed in the first place! Given the dying/rising godman motif is much much older than the Jesus story, it is in all likelihood the source(s) of the Jesus myth, and thus Jesus never existed in the first place. I have those SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES study aid booklets students can buy to help them understand various writings. They carry those study aids at Barnes & Noble book stores and at college & university book stores. There are titles for hundreds of topics and subject matter these books cover, and I have study booklets for both the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT as well as other books, such as CATCHER IN THE RYE, DANDELOIN WINE by David Thoreau, etc. That word "motif" is used in every one of those study guides. I find the guides I have of the OLD TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT, degrade the Bible and dispel perceived factual information in the Bible as "myths" and "contradictions." The idea of "The Jesus Story" is used in both SPARK NOTES and CLIFF NOTES. Benar's post here sounds like it is taken almost word for word out of one or these study guides and I know, for sure, the word "motif" was taken from there as well as the expression " The Jesus Story." The problem is those study aids turn one against the Bible just as they have done to Benar. Jetmech , a lthough I don't know him personally, -from viewing Benar's posts I don't believe that he needs to use "cliff" notes nor "study guides."
I have the impression that he has done considerable research for himself.
PS:
BTW DANDELOIN WINE was written by Ray Bradbury and of course The Catcher in the Rye is by J. D. Salinger,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 19:37:05 GMT -5
its like when your mother punishes you then says wait till your father gets home and you'll really get it...the taste of death isn't your first death its the 2nd death.... No, it's not like that at all imo. He said he was returning before they died. He didn't. He wasn't promising his father was going to punish them when he 'got home'. you'll have to dig a little deeper than that....
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2019 20:22:29 GMT -5
No, it's not like that at all imo. He said he was returning before they died. He didn't. He wasn't promising his father was going to punish them when he 'got home'. you'll have to dig a little deeper than that.... OK, wally, tell us just exactly what you found when YOU "dug deeper" than that!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 5, 2019 20:40:39 GMT -5
its like when your mother punishes you then says wait till your father gets home and you'll really get it...the taste of death isn't your first death its the 2nd death.... No, it's not like that at all imo. He said he was returning before they died. He didn't. He wasn't promising his father was going to punish them when he 'got home'. No he didn’t say that!
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2019 20:49:48 GMT -5
No, it's not like that at all imo. He said he was returning before they died. He didn't. He wasn't promising his father was going to punish them when he 'got home'. No he didn’t say that! Jesus did say that when he returned he would divide the people as sheep from goats and he would send some to be punished.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 21:44:40 GMT -5
you'll have to dig a little deeper than that.... OK, wally, tell us just exactly what you found when YOU "dug deeper" than that!read my previous post that snow was responding to...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 5, 2019 21:48:07 GMT -5
Jesus did say that when he returned he would divide the people as sheep from goats and he would send some to be punished.
Yes, indeed. At his second coming he will judge the nations and how they treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation. This is the sheep vs goat judgment. But back to about this generation shall not pass away, Jesus had been telling how anyone can tell when Jesus would return. It says he’ll send his angels first to gather his saints from the four corners of the earth, this is the rapture. But in order to know when the time is near for the rapture, the tribulation and then Jesus’ second coming; Jesus said that whoever saw that the fig tree branch was leading out, was the time to know it was near. The symbolism here is when a person(generation) that see Israel(fig tree is their national symbol) leaving out or being productive, then that generation that sees that fig tree leafing our will not die before Jesus comes again. Israel is leading as it hadn’t for over many many years; they just celebrated their 71st anniversary as a nation. They produce more fruit and vegetables then they need, shipping out all kinds. They’re far ahead in technology, etc. so it likely is at least part of our generations overlapping the just younger folks. The Bible indicates 70-80 years as a generation.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 5, 2019 21:52:37 GMT -5
Lately even before finding this site I’ve been making excuses to not go to meetings. I stress so much about finding something to speak on no matter how much I read every day. After finding this site and the history if the “truth” I am in shock and am more confused than ever. I left the truth at 16 and came back 2 years ago. Professed a year ago and still feel like I know nothing. I was led to believe this is the only way and many in my meeting speak of this and speak how glad that they’re no part of worldly churches. Workers speak of working for salvation and I’m not even sure how to work for it. Jon knockemous (idk how to spell his last name I know I butchered it) spoke in great length about Trinity and how it is all wrong when I was a little girl.I remember he had scripture to back it up I didn’t memorize which cause I was like 12 at the time. Gloria Edwards spoke of workers being apostles and those professing as disciples of Jesus. At the time it made perfect sense they were teachers of Christ. I am just finding out these things could very much not be true. I even have new questions like what is the Holy Spirit? I know it’s something to do with god and getting it if I have the right spirit but idk how to obtain it or what exactly it is. I live an hour away from every meeting and the only time I can meet with friends is if I drive an hour or more away. I’m left in the dark a lot idek which workers are in my area no worker has spoken since convention time. I live on military base so workers don’t stay which I understand due to the difficulty of getting passed to get on bases. Plus my husband doesn’t profess (married before coming back to meeting) and has a huge TV in living room which they wouldn’t appreciate. I truly feel confused and alone. I can’t speak to my parents of this I know they would worry of me “falling out” again after I had just came back to the fold. Idk why I’m posting I just want to share with someone who doesn’t know me and wouldn’t pass judgement on my salvation. I just now found this post by Cider and enjoyed reading it. I'd like to say that I grew up in the truth too, and I had some of the same concerns as Cider has. What bothers me is the extreme guilt some of the workers place upon people. Does anyone know of any place in the Bible that portrays guilt and the guilt that some of the workers and friends place upon the friends? Before I went into aviation as a career I studied to become an elementary school teacher. We learned in child psychology that children lie to feel safe. Many times children feel threatened and the first thing they do to escape the mental stress of the threat at hand is to lie, and this is true of both male and female children. Lies stem from insecurity. Making excuses not to go to meetings is really synonomous with lying. It's a way of "escape" ... in my opinion. How many people fled Jesus due to guilt Or made up excuses not to be there? Jesus was an excellent teacher. He taught with love and understanding, and he didn't make people feel guilty. After he asked the accusers of the prostitute " ... who among them was without sin ..." He asked them to cast the first stone, and as they left one by one, he asked the prostitute very simply " ... where are thine accusers ...?" He didn't lecture her nor cast guilt upon her. He told her simply " ... go and sin no more ..." I think this is a remarkable illustration of how Jesus taught. People wanted to be in his presence because he taught without inflicting guilt on people, and he had a way of making people want to follow him. This is the sign of a good leader even in businesses today. They have a knack for making their subordinates want to follow them, and making orhers want to jump through hoops for them. I believe Cider has brought up some excellent points here. Recently an elderly ex-worker, who I hadn't seen for years, came with her husband to a restaurant near my work place and met with me. She was laughing about a memory of a time I was a little boy and she'd asked me what I would do if GOD were looking for me and my answer was very quick and I'd responded " ... I would HIDE from God ..." I believe what she had unwittingly revealed to me was that even as a young child I was being taught to feel guilty and to be afraid of God. Later on in my life I made up excuses to miss meetings and it was strictly due to "guilt trips" being placed upon me. Yet, I still LOVED studying the Bible on my own, because when I study the Bible I perceive love there. I don't feel guilt when I study the Bible on my own I feel accepted, loved, and valued when I study the teachings of Jesus Christ as well as all the other teachers mentioned in the Bible. Cider has likely taken off from TMB, I think it overwhelmed her. She’s into learning more about the Bible and hopefully has founding a reachable bible study group near her place of residence. Please pray she can stay in tune with Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 3:36:54 GMT -5
Jesus did say that when he returned he would divide the people as sheep from goats and he would send some to be punished.
Yes, indeed. At his second coming he will judge the nations and how they treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation. This is the sheep vs goat judgment. But back to about this generation shall not pass away, Jesus had been telling how anyone can tell when Jesus would return. It says he’ll send his angels first to gather his saints from the four corners of the earth, this is the rapture. But in order to know when the time is near for the rapture, the tribulation and then Jesus’ second coming; Jesus said that whoever saw that the fig tree branch was leading out, was the time to know it was near. The symbolism here is when a person(generation) that see Israel(fig tree is their national symbol) leaving out or being productive, then that generation that sees that fig tree leafing our will not die before Jesus comes again. Israel is leading as it hadn’t for over many many years; they just celebrated their 71st anniversary as a nation. They produce more fruit and vegetables then they need, shipping out all kinds. They’re far ahead in technology, etc. so it likely is at least part of our generations overlapping the just younger folks. The Bible indicates 70-80 years as a generation. The National symbol of the state of Israel isn’t the fig tree. It is a seven branched candelabrum flanked by two olive branches. Matt10
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Post by Dan on Dec 6, 2019 4:12:36 GMT -5
You have Newtons Law of Gravity, you have Jesus defying gravity by walking on water, so its clear that God is not bound by science. Christ also calm the storm at sea, whereas God is not bound by nature either, or anything else for that matter.
My analogy of 'man walking on the moon' was simply to illustrate that if you told someone in 1719 that men could walk on the moon, they would consider it a wild myth because it would be as much of an impossible miracle as restoring a blind mans sight. When things have no rational explanation, they are viewed as so incredible that they have to be made up.
All things are possible for God, that was the whole point of performing miracles, to convince people in that first century apostolic age of the truth and establish the gospel.
Creation itself demonstrates the omnipotence of God. Of course, its received by faith, but there is evidence that suggest its true, mainly the fulfillment of prophecy such as the examples I mentioned from Daniel and Isaiah. Both prophesies were historically proven correct, neither relied on another biblical story for confirmation.
Are you expecting this response to be taken seriously? I ask you “if you have a single example other than a (likely made up) biblical story that proves that God is not bound by science” .... and you use as your example the (likely made up) biblical story of Jesus walking on water? Such a response defies belief and demonstrates the weakness of the case for the existence of the Christian God in reality. You clearly haven’t got any examples. Indeed your response corroborates the view that your claim that God is not bound by science is false. You do seem to be struggling with your man on the moon analogy. In 1719 no man had ever walked on the moon so there was no event to be explained and consequently no (supposed) miracle could have been considered to have taken place. Nor would the walking of man on the moon be considered a myth. Miracles are events that have occurred which require explanation. Myths are traditional stories or false beliefs. The resurrection (if it really did occur) fits the first category and (if it really didn’t occur) fits the second. Walking on the moon fits neither category whether in 1719 or 2019. Events that have not yet happened and which no one believes have happened are neither miracles or myths. However if a man ATE the moon that would be a miracle. And if you believed that a man HAD eaten the moon that would be a myth. No doubt you’ll be telling me that God COULD eat the moon as with God all things are possible. Finally you still haven’t provided me with anything that demonstrates that God is omnipotent. Perhaps we need to be clear as to what omnipotence means as you certainly weren’t clear on the meaning of miracle previously. Omnipotence means having unlimited power. I’ve previously demonstrated that God is clearly not omnipotent and could not be omnipotent by pointing out that God clearly lacks even the power to regrow a missing foot, finger, hand, leg, arm, thumb, ear or toe. Claiming that creation demonstrates that he is omnipotent won’t work. Even if your God did have a role in the creation of the universe (and there’s no evidence that he did) it would certainly not demonstrate that he was omnipotent. So I’m going to ask you again how you came to the conclusion that your God was omnipotent (other than reading it in a book). Matt10
There is no source that can prove God by scientific method, God is beyond our limited observable knowledge, you can't seek physical evidence to prove a Spiritual Being. That's why the bible says; "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20). Where did you come from? Where did anything come from? Science doesn't have those answers because science is incapable of observing or explaining anything not bound by scientific law. Jesus put it simple; "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31).The proof of God cannot be explained by science because God is outside of science, that's why your having trouble trying to logically comprehend God, because God is not understood by scientific laws, theories, or hypothesis. Everything emanated from God (except sin), but God is not bound, defined, or ruled by creation, science, or nature. An Intelligent Designer of all that exist is not restricted or limited by what He created, that would be tantamount to me saying that if I built a dog house, I must be bound to live in it. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8&9).
My moon walking analogy was making the simple point that if you told people hundreds of years ago that men could fly or could hear someone talking from thousands of miles away, they would consider those statements as miraculous claims because it was impossible back then.. Its only accepted when its brought to fruition and an explanation makes it understandable. Miracles are labeled miracles because they have no explanation.
You have not demonstrated that God is not omnipotent, nor can you prove it anymore than I can prove that He is. You claim that God cannot regrow legs, fingers, etc, but you have no facts. I choose to believe that since God grew them in the first place, He's surely capable of regrowing them if He chose to. In fact, the bible says God will replace our entire body. Its accepted by faith, the bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient. You 'believe' the universe came into existence accidentally, I believe an all-powerful God created it. For me, it requires more blind faith to accept your accidental myth..
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