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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:46:09 GMT -5
God created us because he wanted a family- He calls us again and again to have a relationship with him. If we choose not to, we lose out in this life and horribly the next. If he wanted a family why does he feel the need to send his creation to hell just because they don't believe in him? Allah does the same and some other gods that people have worshiped. It would seem to me that if he really didn't couldn't allow them in heaven for eternity, that the more loving thing to do instead of torturing them forever, would be to annihilate them. But he doesn't. He allows torture forever as a punishment. But the whole reason behind punishment is to rehabilitate the one that did wrong. But that doesn't even become an option in God's world. You go to hell and you stay there forever being punished no matter how good you might have been on earth. All because you didn't believe in him. No chance for rehabilitation so why punish? God is a God of Love- He also is a God of Purity. Nothing will be in the new heaven that defiles. His world, his heaven, His rules.
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 13:47:24 GMT -5
God created us because he wanted a family- He calls us again and again to have a relationship with him. If we choose not to, we lose out in this life and horribly the next.[/quote] When Uzzah reached out to steady the ark of god when the oxen stumbled god killed him. And god killed 70 from Beth Shemesh because they looked into the ark. What kind of a family is that! Killing members does not encourage joining.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 13:48:21 GMT -5
But that does not explain why you think adversity would cause someone to turn to an entity in which they do not believe. Often times it is extreme experiences that reveal to us, that we have come to the end of ourselves. Not all choose to turn to God, but I have certainly enjoyed the testimonies of many who have. It is of course my hope, prayer that a individual would! But it doesn't change anything. When my son was choking to death if wasn't going to change anything. A medical procedure however saved his life. I have other experiences that were really tough but turning to God certainly didn't make them go away. A person won't have any confidence in turning to something they don't believe exists. It's just that simple. You do find comfort in the Christian god because you believe he exists. But would you find the same peace if someone told you to turn to Allah? Probably not. That's how it is for atheists. There is no reason to believe that Allah or Yahweh or Thor are going to make my life easier, better, any different from what it already is.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 13:50:54 GMT -5
If he wanted a family why does he feel the need to send his creation to hell just because they don't believe in him? Allah does the same and some other gods that people have worshiped. It would seem to me that if he really didn't couldn't allow them in heaven for eternity, that the more loving thing to do instead of torturing them forever, would be to annihilate them. But he doesn't. He allows torture forever as a punishment. But the whole reason behind punishment is to rehabilitate the one that did wrong. But that doesn't even become an option in God's world. You go to hell and you stay there forever being punished no matter how good you might have been on earth. All because you didn't believe in him. No chance for rehabilitation so why punish? God is a God of Love- He also is a God of Purity. Nothing will be in the new heaven that defiles. His world, his heaven, His rules. Okay I get that. But the question wasn't about not getting into heaven. It was 'why does he allow punishment for eternity when there is no benefit'? If he doesn't want me in heaven for not believing in him, I'm good with that. It's his choice and I probably wouldn't enjoy it there anyway. But why punish me forever? How is that about love or compassion for that matter?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:52:22 GMT -5
God created us because he wanted a family- He calls us again and again to have a relationship with him. If we choose not to, we lose out in this life and horribly the next. If he wanted a family why does he feel the need to send his creation to hell just because they don't believe in him? Allah does the same and some other gods that people have worshiped. It would seem to me that if he really didn't couldn't allow them in heaven for eternity, that the more loving thing to do instead of torturing them forever, would be to annihilate them. But he doesn't. He allows torture forever as a punishment. But the whole reason behind punishment is to rehabilitate the one that did wrong. But that doesn't even become an option in God's world. You go to hell and you stay there forever being punished no matter how good you might have been on earth. All because you didn't believe in him. No chance for rehabilitation so why punish? i suspect(no proof) that the reason there has to be a hell is that God cannot undo a spirit once its created so for those that choose to not believe in him or just disobey him they have to go somewhere other than heaven...that would be hell... i suspect also that you don't understand how much God hates evil and cannot allow it in his heaven that is to come...
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:52:30 GMT -5
Often times it is extreme experiences that reveal to us, that we have come to the end of ourselves. Not all choose to turn to God, but I have certainly enjoyed the testimonies of many who have. It is of course my hope, prayer that a individual would! But it doesn't change anything. When my son was choking to death if wasn't going to change anything. A medical procedure however saved his life. I have other experiences that were really tough but turning to God certainly didn't make them go away. A person won't have any confidence in turning to something they don't believe exists. It's just that simple. You do find comfort in the Christian god because you believe he exists. But would you find the same peace if someone told you to turn to Allah? Probably not. That's how it is for atheists. There is no reason to believe that Allah or Yahweh or Thor are going to make my life easier, better, any different from what it already is. Gid gives his people a peace that passes all understanding- this will keep you even if it is his will that a experience does not change. You are kept thru it.
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 13:53:13 GMT -5
God is a God of Love- He also is a God of Purity. Nothing will be in the new heaven that defiles. His world, his heaven, His rules. Okay I get that. But the question wasn't about not getting into heaven. It was 'why does he allow punishment for eternity when there is no benefit'? If he doesn't want me in heaven for not believing in him, I'm good with that. It's his choice and I probably wouldn't enjoy it there anyway. But why punish me forever? How is that about love or compassion for that matter? Ask him!
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 13:53:17 GMT -5
Not really. God was on the side of Judah and that team, no matter which one was 'he', could not defeat the iron chariots. Hardly an example of omnipotence. Do you think god abandoned Judah? as usual for the jews of the time they probably did something wrong even when God backs them and God was not above withdrawing support from the jews if they were doing something wrong even if it was for only one battle...if you read the whole chapter you'll see they were not doing the conquest correctly anyways as the Lord asked them to do... You have provided your rationalization but it is not supported by the text.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:56:37 GMT -5
as usual for the jews of the time they probably did something wrong even when God backs them and God was not above withdrawing support from the jews if they were doing something wrong even if it was for only one battle...if you read the whole chapter you'll see they were not doing the conquest correctly anyways as the Lord asked them to do... You have provided your rationalization but it is not supported by the text. read the whole chapter and you will see they were doing wrong...
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 14:00:50 GMT -5
You have provided your rationalization but it is not supported by the text. read the whole chapter and you will see they were doing wrong... I did read it and I see nothing to tie the inability to defeat an enemy with more advances technology to any shortcoming or act of disobedience. There is a single reason given - they were 'out gunned'. There is the whole list of places where the forces of god failed. The iron chariots are not in that list.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 14:06:28 GMT -5
If he wanted a family why does he feel the need to send his creation to hell just because they don't believe in him? Allah does the same and some other gods that people have worshiped. It would seem to me that if he really didn't couldn't allow them in heaven for eternity, that the more loving thing to do instead of torturing them forever, would be to annihilate them. But he doesn't. He allows torture forever as a punishment. But the whole reason behind punishment is to rehabilitate the one that did wrong. But that doesn't even become an option in God's world. You go to hell and you stay there forever being punished no matter how good you might have been on earth. All because you didn't believe in him. No chance for rehabilitation so why punish? i suspect(no proof) that the reason there has to be a hell is that God cannot undo a spirit once its created so for those that choose to not believe in him or just disobey him they have to go somewhere other than heaven...that would be hell... i suspect also that you don't understand how much God hates evil and cannot allow it in his heaven that is to come... Possibly he can't undo his creation, I wouldn't know. But that doesn't make his all powerful then. Also, I have never thought of myself as evil. I don't think I would contaminate anything in heaven, but then you never know I suppose. I would obviously have become a believer if I actually went to heaven and met the guy.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 14:08:52 GMT -5
But it doesn't change anything. When my son was choking to death if wasn't going to change anything. A medical procedure however saved his life. I have other experiences that were really tough but turning to God certainly didn't make them go away. A person won't have any confidence in turning to something they don't believe exists. It's just that simple. You do find comfort in the Christian god because you believe he exists. But would you find the same peace if someone told you to turn to Allah? Probably not. That's how it is for atheists. There is no reason to believe that Allah or Yahweh or Thor are going to make my life easier, better, any different from what it already is. Gid gives his people a peace that passes all understanding- this will keep you even if it is his will that a experience does not change. You are kept thru it. Well I was 'kept through it' without any belief in God or comfort I might get from believing in God, so what's the difference really. I doubt people are at peace when they are going through the real trauma as it's happening and would be praying frantically at that point. I don't pray, I do what I can to change my situation and what I can't change I've learned to accept. I find peace in that.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 6, 2019 14:09:09 GMT -5
The fig tree is the symbol of the nation of Israel. It was as a parable Jesus spoke to Jews who would understand his symbolism. The nation of Israel suffer infertility as a nation during the Holocaust years. The survivors were returned to their nation Israel, the land was awakened by God and those poor Holocaust survivors who arrived with no hope, few clothes and no possessions, saw the promise in their land. They were declared a nation in 1948. They just celebrated their 71 anniversary as a recognized nation. Their country has flourished, they have produced enough produce for their needs and ship out to other countries. This IS the fig branch leading out. This is what Jesus was speaking the parable about. The generation that sees this evidence will not pass away before he comes to rapture his saints, the 7 year tribulation sets on, then Jesus second coming. It all involves time. Not all of us will be living at the end of that 7 year tribulation but there will be some who are alive that will be. The national tree of Israel is the olive tree. I do wonder how many different schemes Christians have created through the ages to strengthen a hope that Jesus will return soon. Here are a few: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_ChristTrue the national symbol voted for in 2005 was an olive tree surrounding the menorah. However the fig tree has always been the biblical symbol for Israel being God’s chosen nation. The olive tree is Israel’s religious life-biblically-Gentile’s can and have been grafted in the olive tree. The grape vine is the spiritual life of Israel and Gentiles have been grafted in the vine, biblically. But the fig tree is Israel’s national symbol biblically as God’s chosen nation but Gentiles can not be grafted in the fig tree.
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2019 14:11:13 GMT -5
Okay I get that. But the question wasn't about not getting into heaven. It was 'why does he allow punishment for eternity when there is no benefit'? If he doesn't want me in heaven for not believing in him, I'm good with that. It's his choice and I probably wouldn't enjoy it there anyway. But why punish me forever? How is that about love or compassion for that matter? Ask him! Which God should I ask? And, how would I know if I asked the right one? I'm told other Gods speak to their believers just like the Christian God answers his believers, so how would I know the difference, how would I know if I even asked the right God?
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 14:17:37 GMT -5
Which God should I ask? And, how would I know if I asked the right one? I'm told other Gods speak to their believers just like the Christian God answers his believers, so how would I know the difference, how would I know if I even asked the right God? You can begin be praying- ABBA Father. This is how Jesus taught us to pray. Simple childlike prayers open up heaven to us. Just like children dont often Know what to say or how to start- just pour out your heart. He is waiting and listening!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 6, 2019 14:18:14 GMT -5
We do have 4 separate accounts of Christ, while the gospels aren't identical, they don't conflict or contradict one another. We don't just have accounts of eye witnesses, we have the written reports of eyewitnesses, which serve as an affidavit (testimony) of individuals who wrote what they saw and heard. What do you suppose was the apostles motivation for writing the gospels? Persecution, affliction, imprisonment, beatings, and death? People just don't suffer such things to perpetuate a lie. Remember that the disciples were afraid and hid until they saw that Christ had risen, then once convinced, they boldly proclaimed the truth.
Keep in mind that Jesus was dead, so unlike your sample abductee, Christ could not have just wandered off. He was killed and witnesses verified that they saw him alive again. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 foretold in detail how and why he was killed, and that adds a ton of credibility to the gospels. Its received by faith, and there's good reasons why God requires us to come by faith. You may not believe Jesus even existed, but there's way too much evidence to conclude that it could have all of been some coordinated, organized, and elaborate hoax.
Sometimes we go by what makes sense, not just what can be proven. If you understand how a car starts and runs, you don't necessarily need to hear it start or see it run.
It is altogether possible that the reason why they saw him alive again is because he never died. That what they gave him in the sponge on the cross made him unconscious so that the soldiers didn't break his knees and he was taken down soon thereafter. He had rich supporters that asked for his body and there is no reason that he couldn't have survived, been healed and therefore showed again to his followers as alive. We know that the first gospel written, Mark, says nothing about a resurrection. We have some documentation that he left Israel because if he stayed he would be killed. There is a grave in India that they claim holds Jesus. I have no idea if any of it is true, but it makes a lot more sense than someone dying and then coming back to life. You might be interested in reading "Jesus Lived in India: His Unknown Life Before and After the Crucifixion". It is taken from some earlier documents that Buddhist monks had in their possession of the time when he visited Tibet/India in his 'lost years' and how he returned after his life was at risk in Israel. Strange though the Bible accounts the occasion, people have NO understanding of a transfiguration. And how it played in the whole scene of Jesus’ death on the cross, which actually occurred but death had no grip on him because he’d already been transfigured. Why make so little of such a very important process?
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 14:47:25 GMT -5
Gid gives his people a peace that passes all understanding- this will keep you even if it is his will that a experience does not change. You are kept thru it. It does pass all understanding. Why does the belief in a myth bring people comfort? If you were sailing and the sea was rough would you call on Poseidon in your hour of need?
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 14:48:35 GMT -5
Gid gives his people a peace that passes all understanding- this will keep you even if it is his will that a experience does not change. You are kept thru it. It does pass all understanding. Why does the belief in a myth bring people comfort? If you were sailing and the sea was rough would you call on Poseidon in your hour of need? i do not believe myths. God is very real! BTW... This is a Truth, meeting Board. No myths here!
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Post by Dan on Dec 6, 2019 15:23:11 GMT -5
We do have 4 separate accounts of Christ, while the gospels aren't identical, they don't conflict or contradict one another. We don't just have accounts of eye witnesses, we have the written reports of eyewitnesses, which serve as an affidavit (testimony) of individuals who wrote what they saw and heard. What do you suppose was the apostles motivation for writing the gospels? Persecution, affliction, imprisonment, beatings, and death? People just don't suffer such things to perpetuate a lie. Remember that the disciples were afraid and hid until they saw that Christ had risen, then once convinced, they boldly proclaimed the truth.
Keep in mind that Jesus was dead, so unlike your sample abductee, Christ could not have just wandered off. He was killed and witnesses verified that they saw him alive again. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 foretold in detail how and why he was killed, and that adds a ton of credibility to the gospels. Its received by faith, and there's good reasons why God requires us to come by faith. You may not believe Jesus even existed, but there's way too much evidence to conclude that it could have all of been some coordinated, organized, and elaborate hoax.
Sometimes we go by what makes sense, not just what can be proven. If you understand how a car starts and runs, you don't necessarily need to hear it start or see it run.
Dan, if god is beyond science and observation, then you are claiming to detect the undetectable. This is logically impossible. Do you don’t have knowledge of a god, you have a belief that you want to be true. Please do some study in formal logic. Particularly the subject of circular reasoning.
All reasoning in the absence of objective evidence could be construed as circular.. You cannot logically deduce God.. True, there's no tangible or physical evidence to establish God as a provable fact (creation aside).
But God is not undetectable, He is understood through His word, and while written records of past events can be true or false, its up to every individual to discern the truth from a lie. If the bible is divinely inspired, then it certainly does provide knowledge of God. The bible has not been proven false even with all the knowledge accumulated over thousands of years. The prophetic visions have been proven true. Many events, places, and people have been proven to have happened, existed, and were real characters. Plus, God reveals Himself to those who earnestly seek him, He is experience through spirit and truth. His Holy Spirit is a teacher and Comforter, that's how eyes are opened. The bible also tells us how everything came into existence, while science is still clueless. The best evidence of whether a book is true or not is the book itself. God did not rely on government records or historians to articulate and preserve His word, it was too important for that, so it was relayed through inspired Prophets and Apostles of His choosing.
Without evidence, men often describe that they have a "gut' feeling of something being true or false, women call it "intuition" that discerns right from wrong, and Christians call it the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Believers don't necessarily factually discern God, but are spiritually awakened by the indwelling of His H.S, that along with the written word is how God makes himself known. What we freely choose to believe is made known to us, you just have to empty yourself of yourself, give God an open slate, and knock..... Didn't mean to sound so preachy, just expressing my experience.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 6, 2019 16:15:44 GMT -5
I don't think I'm capable of digging any deeper because I truly don't know what you mean. We “dig in” by diligent prayer. Ask God to reveal these things to you. Anyone can pray to any one of the multitude of "gods" and then believe that their "god" revealed something personally to themselves alone.
But the 'proof' that such a revelation is true is only when that revelation can reproduced for others to evaluate as something dependable as a fact or a truth. Until that happens, -it is nothing more that a belief in the mind of that person to whom it is 'revealed.'
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Post by Dan on Dec 6, 2019 16:17:06 GMT -5
There is no source that can prove God by scientific method, God is beyond our limited observable knowledge, you can't seek physical evidence to prove a Spiritual Being. That's why the bible says; "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Romans 1:20). Where did you come from? Where did anything come from? Science doesn't have those answers because science is incapable of observing or explaining anything not bound by scientific law. Jesus put it simple; "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31).The proof of God cannot be explained by science because God is outside of science, that's why your having trouble trying to logically comprehend God, because God is not understood by scientific laws, theories, or hypothesis. Everything emanated from God (except sin), but God is not bound, defined, or ruled by creation, science, or nature. An Intelligent Designer of all that exist is not restricted or limited by what He created, that would be tantamount to me saying that if I built a dog house, I must be bound to live in it. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8&9).
My moon walking analogy was making the simple point that if you told people hundreds of years ago that men could fly or could hear someone talking from thousands of miles away, they would consider those statements as miraculous claims because it was impossible back then.. Its only accepted when its brought to fruition and an explanation makes it understandable. Miracles are labeled miracles because they have no explanation.
You have not demonstrated that God is not omnipotent, nor can you prove it anymore than I can prove that He is. You claim that God cannot regrow legs, fingers, etc, but you have no facts. I choose to believe that since God grew them in the first place, He's surely capable of regrowing them if He chose to. In fact, the bible says God will replace our entire body. Its accepted by faith, the bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient. You 'believe' the universe came into existence accidentally, I believe an all-powerful God created it. For me, it requires more blind faith to accept your accidental myth..
I will respond to this in point form. 1. You made the claim that your God is omnipotent but you have been unable to provide any basis for coming to this conclusion despite being invited twice to do so. It is not up to me to demonstrate that your God isn’t omnipotent. It isn’t up to me to disprove your claim. If I claim I can jump over a house it is not up to you to prove that I can’t. I should point out that I didn’t ask you to provide evidence that your God is omnipotent, I merely asked you how you came to the conclusion that he was. 2. I’m not sure why you are attempting to introduce a debate around how the universe was created. However since you have now raised it perhaps you can tell us whether you believe God created the universe from something or from nothing. And if he created it from something what is this something that you believe he created it from? 3. Please note that I have never suggested that I believe that the universe came into existence accidentally. I’m unclear therefore how you came to conclude that I did. 4. I have provided you with facts. It is a fact that God cannot regrow limbs, ears, toes, hands, feet or fingers. You just choose not to believe that he can’t in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 5. I continue to assert that your God is a theoretical book based God and you have so far failed to provide anything that indicates the contrary. Your continuing insistence on quoting from your religious book to support your claims about God simply confirms that your God (like Allah) is a theoretical book based God. I would suggest that the fact that he is a theoretical God is the real reason why he can’t be proved by scientific method. 6. I’m not sure what point you are attempting to make as regards your man in the moon analogy. I’ve already explained the definitions of miracle and myth. Miracles don’t happen. Myths never happened. Man walking in the moon is neither. Jesus ascending up to heaven is the latter. Matt10
You can't prove that any entity is omnipotent without being all powerful yourself. Being omniscient and omnipotent is really beyond our comprehension. How do you define "all-powerful" with a limited intellect that doesn't give us the capacity to even perceive of it? It's my belief that God can do whatever He wants, creation is evidence that an Intelligent Being designed and organized all that I can see. Jesus did perform miracles to establish a power beyond what can be known, even life-giving miracles.
Of course, I know that you don't believe any of it and have rejected biblical truth in favor of your own. You seem to think God is limited by science and can only be rationalized by what mankind has learned through direct observation. You say that, "It is a fact that God cannot regrow limbs, ears, etc"? But that is not a fact, its simply your belief because you can't conceive of something you've never seen. Its illogical, its like saying that I could build a house, but you have factually proven that I could not rebuild a house?
Your correct that God cannot be proven by scientific method, He is way beyond the limitations of science. A Supreme Being isn't dependent on our ability to rationalize one, He said "I AM THAT I AM", and all I know is that without Him, 'I am that I'm not'.
Jesus ascending into heaven is a miracle for those who believe it happened, its only a myth to those who don't accept that it occurred. God will make himself known, every eye will see and every knee will bow. But until that day, Jesus mandated that everyone must come by faith, and that was an order that no evidence or science can nullify via direct evidence. "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29)
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 17:42:47 GMT -5
We “dig in” by diligent prayer. Ask God to reveal these things to you. Anyone can pray to any one of the multitude of "gods" and then believe that their "god" revealed something personally to themselves alone.
But the 'proof' that such a revelation is true is only when that revelation can reproduced for others to evaluate as something dependable as a fact or a truth. Until that happens, -it is nothing more that a belief in the mind of that person to whom it is 'revealed.'Proving! Happening continually each day!
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 17:46:45 GMT -5
God is proving himself to his children daily. They enjoy the peace, provision, comfort etc..
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2019 17:50:51 GMT -5
It does pass all understanding. Why does the belief in a myth bring people comfort? If you were sailing and the sea was rough would you call on Poseidon in your hour of need? i do not believe myths. God is very real! BTW... This is a Truth, meeting Board. No myths here! myth 1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. 2. a widely held but false belief or idea. Take your pick. The bible or the greek myths? The bible or the norse myths. Compare and contrast - how does the bible story differ from the greek myths?
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Post by reborn on Dec 6, 2019 18:09:41 GMT -5
i do not believe myths. God is very real! BTW... This is a Truth, meeting Board. No myths here! myth 1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. 2. a widely held but false belief or idea. Take your pick. The bible or the greek myths? The bible or the norse myths. Compare and contrast - how does the bible story differ from the greek myths? You don’t know until you KNOW! The Bible is TRUTH! I can’t help your unbelief, I can point you to the ONE who can cure that condition though.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 6, 2019 18:11:49 GMT -5
Dan, if god is beyond science and observation, then you are claiming to detect the undetectable. This is logically impossible. Do you don’t have knowledge of a god, you have a belief that you want to be true. Please do some study in formal logic. Particularly the subject of circular reasoning. All reasoning in the absence of objective evidence could be construed as circular..
You cannot logically deduce God.. True, there's no tangible or physical evidence to establish God as a provable fact (creation aside).
But God is not undetectable, He is understood through His word, and while written records of past events can be true or false, its up to every individual to discern the truth from a lie.
If the bible is divinely inspired, then it certainly does provide knowledge of God. The bible has not been proven false even with all the knowledge accumulated over thousands of years. The prophetic visions have been proven true.
Many events, places, and people have been proven to have happened, existed, and were real characters. Plus, God reveals Himself to those who earnestly seek him, He is experience through spirit and truth.
His Holy Spirit is a teacher and Comforter, that's how eyes are opened. The bible also tells us how everything came into existence, while science is still clueless. The best evidence of whether a book is true or not is the book itself.
God did not rely on government records or historians to articulate and preserve His word, it was too important for that, so it was relayed through inspired Prophets and Apostles of His choosing.
Without evidence, men often describe that they have a "gut' feeling of something being true or false, women call it "intuition" that discerns right from wrong, and Christians call it the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Believers don't necessarily factually discern God, but are spiritually awakened by the indwelling of His H.S, that along with the written word is how God makes himself known.
What we freely choose to believe is made known to us, you just have to empty yourself of yourself, give God an open slate, and knock..... Didn't mean to sound so preachy, just expressing my experience. First of all, although as you say it is true that many events, places, and people have been proven to have happened, existed, and were real characters, but that still does NOT mean that what the bible says about them is verified.
They were a group of people, -like many more groups of people , only one group of people amongst others in the Levant. They were striving to survive just as the other groups of people also did.
Just as any group of people who tell their own history they tell it only as THEY can see it. Every group of people in that day had a "god"or many gods/goddesses to which they looked to help them. It is a part of the story of every group the world over at that time.
That bible has not any more been proven true than any of the other histories of other groups in the world.
As to your belief that "The prophetic visions have been proven true." -one needs to study the psychology as to how people will come to one conclusion and believe some prophecies to be true, all the while ignoring all the other prophecies which never came true.
I agree with Benar. Study some formal logic.
Because all of us can really fool ourselves into believing something simply because we want to because it is comforting to us.
Been there, done that myself.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 6, 2019 18:16:23 GMT -5
God is proving himself to his children daily. They enjoy the peace, provision, comfort etc.. I also "enjoy the peace, provision, comfort," -every day and I don't need a god to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 18:30:23 GMT -5
read the whole chapter and you will see they were doing wrong... I did read it and I see nothing to tie the inability to defeat an enemy with more advances technology to any shortcoming or act of disobedience. There is a single reason given - they were 'out gunned'. There is the whole list of places where the forces of god failed. The iron chariots are not in that list. you couldn't have read it and not seen that they disobeyed God by not removing or eliminating all those other tribes as they were told to do....
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