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Post by mountain on Oct 27, 2019 2:00:53 GMT -5
Are we now suggesting that the repentant thief on the cross did not receive grace from God to do the good works that God had called him to do in his dying moments?
That thief was the only one who supported Jesus in his agony on the cross, whilst all around were baying for his blood. The thief was likewise suffering such agony. He was repentant. He even supported Jesus at a time, the only time, when Jesus thought his Heavenly Father had deserted him. The thief spoke up for Jesus. He did all that he could do. He did not gain salvation easily. In his short, salvation journey, he did mighty works in God's eyes. He received grace to do them.
Remember, only a short time beforehand, Peter (no doubt speaking for the other disciples also) stated he was prepared to lay down his life for Jesus, but when the test came, he and the other disciples fled. Two thieves highlight the importance of having grace. One thought only of saving himself from the cross, whilst the other thought about saving himself for all eternity.
We should not treat the repentant thief is any light way whatsoever. He did not get salvation easily.
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Post by mountain on Oct 27, 2019 2:06:12 GMT -5
Is there a difference in saying this is the way to my house or saying this is my house? They mean 2 different things. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, not I am the way to the truth and life. I am and I am the way are 2 different things. How about: 1) This is the way to my house (the Father), and 2) I am the way to my house (the Father).
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Post by Grant on Oct 27, 2019 2:35:53 GMT -5
Is there a difference in saying this is the way to my house or saying this is my house? They mean 2 different things. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, not I am the way to the truth and life. I am and I am the way are 2 different things. How about: 1) This is the way to my house (the Father), and 2) I am the way to my house (the Father). He did not say I am the way to my Father's house. He said I am the way, the truth and the life. I am my father are one. Am i me or am I the way to me? You are you, or are you the way to you?
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Post by Grant on Oct 27, 2019 2:47:31 GMT -5
The bible says exactly that. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:8-10 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-10&version=NIVTrust that Christ can save you. Salvation. Once your saved you do righteous good works because sin is no longer your master. In that specific order. Not, Trust Christ can save you. A lifetime journey of saving good works. Then salvation. No where in the bible is it in that order. The works up until your salvation are not Justified so why will they count to your salvation?. Ah...I see. Once saved always saved, or those who turn away from Christ were never true believers in the first place, etc? Get thee behind me satan. Here is a little analogy for you to consider. I fall into a fast flowing, deep river and am in grave danger of being swept away and drowned. Virgs, sees my plight and throws me a lifeline, which I manage to grasp and hold onto tightly. It has stopped me being swept away by the current and will do so as long as I hold on. As I am being pulled towards the safety of the bank (read life's journey), I can contextually say concerning my plight....'I have been saved,' 'I am in the process of being saved,' 'I will be saved,' etc. All these statements are correct in their own context, but my salvation is certain once my perilous journey is over. My salvation is assured if I hold tightly onto my lifeline. If I let go my lifeline or turn away from my rescuer, my salvation is at grave risk. Once more - Grace saves us. It empowers us to do the good works that God has called us to do. These good works are an essential PART of salvation. They are not an add on or follow on. They are part and parcel of salvation. I think your mind is screwed up with visions of human works? We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. We must have faith. That faith must be a living faith not a dead one. A dead faith has no works. Our works give life to our faith. These works come through obedience to God. He gives us grace to do his will. He prepares our works in advance for us to do with his help. Go and do a study of the seven churches in Asia mentioned in Revelation 1-3. What is the common denominator in God's address to these churches? Most had things they had to repent of, but one or two received commendation. However, ALL seven of them were firmly engaged by the same words.....'I know thy works!' Their works were all important to God. That is how God began his address to them all. How it can be implied that our works follow on from salvation is clearly false. Quite simply, we are called into God's service to do his good works along our salvation journey. It's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to do the works of God, not his grace. His grace is God's unmerited favour to us. His goodness to us.
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Post by nathan on Oct 27, 2019 10:21:38 GMT -5
Right! Except salvation is not a reward it is a gift! As is faith! I feel so indebted to God but honestly I can never repay him except by loving and obeying him! For he owns everything to start with! Salvation/Christ gift to us is FREE! works after Salvation are our rewards to be given to us/believers when Jesus comes back to Rule as King of kings on the earth for 1000 yrs.
Works/be lights and salt in the world, live in godly manners before others after Salvation is our expression of LOVE to Christ and God the Father because of the gift they had given us Eternal life.
All good works charities, observing the laws of Moses people did before Salvation came couldn't SAVE them and us.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 27, 2019 10:42:13 GMT -5
Right! Except salvation is not a reward it is a gift! As is faith! I feel so indebted to God but honestly I can never repay him except by loving and obeying him! For he owns everything to start with! Salvation/Christ gift to us is FREE! works after Salvation are our rewards to be given to us/believers when Jesus comes back to Rule as King of kings on the earth for 1000 yrs.
Works/be lights and salt in the world, live in godly manners before others after Salvation is our expression of LOVE to Christ and God the Father because of the gift they had given us Eternal life.
All good works charities, observing the laws of Moses people did before Salvation came couldn't SAVE them.
I just listened to Amir Tsarfati. He is so good at showing how the world events are prophecied in the OT. The Syria/Turkey/Russia situation is foretold Especially in Ezekiel and how this timelines in with Matthew 24. He says we as Christians need to lift our eyes for the day draws near for the Rapture if his bride. I’ve said all along Trump fits the description of the Antichrist for he gains countries trust, then he turns in them. Everyone except Russia and this is prophesied in Ezekiel. That Russia seeks control of the Middle East only because of the rich oil and gas wells. Now Putin has Trump using US soldiers guarding “his” oil wells in Syria. Russia has plans to invade Israel for the gas and oil wells in the Mediterranean Sea coast. But they’ll be burned up on the mountains if Israel. Amir says that God’s people will be removed from the earth before the most horrible things yet to come. He said the Holy Spirit dwelling in God’s people are serving as a deterrent these days. I believe he’s right or mighty close to it. Lift thy head... the day draws near. When our Master shall appear! Glory Hallelujah! Come, Lord Jesus, come! 😊
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 27, 2019 10:43:52 GMT -5
Are we now suggesting that the repentant thief on the cross did not receive grace from God to do the good works that God had called him to do in his dying moments? That thief was the only one who supported Jesus in his agony on the cross, whilst all around were baying for his blood. The thief was likewise suffering such agony. He was repentant. He even supported Jesus at a time, the only time, when Jesus thought his Heavenly Father had deserted him. The thief spoke up for Jesus. He did all that he could do. He did not gain salvation easily. In his short, salvation journey, he did mighty works in God's eyes. He received grace to do them. Remember, only a short time beforehand, Peter (no doubt speaking for the other disciples also) stated he was prepared to lay down his life for Jesus, but when the test came, he and the other disciples fled. Two thieves highlight the importance of having grace. One thought only of saving himself from the cross, whilst the other thought about saving himself for all eternity. We should not treat the repentant thief is any light way whatsoever. He did not get salvation easily. Exactly what I’ve been trying to say about any works bringing salvation. Repentance.
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Post by nathan on Oct 27, 2019 15:30:56 GMT -5
Salvation/Christ gift to us is FREE! works after Salvation are our rewards to be given to us/believers when Jesus comes back to Rule as King of kings on the earth for 1000 yrs.
Works/be lights and salt in the world, live in godly manners before others after Salvation is our expression of LOVE to Christ and God the Father because of the gift they had given us Eternal life.
All good works charities, observing the laws of Moses people did before Salvation came couldn't SAVE them.
I just listened to Amir Tsarfati. He is so good at showing how the world events are prophecied in the OT. The Syria/Turkey/Russia situation is foretold Especially in Ezekiel and how this timelines in with Matthew 24. He says we as Christians need to lift our eyes for the day draws near for the Rapture if his bride. I’ve said all along Trump fits the description of the Antichrist for he gains countries trust, then he turns in them. Everyone except Russia and this is prophesied in Ezekiel. That Russia seeks control of the Middle East only because of the rich oil and gas wells. Now Putin has Trump using US soldiers guarding “his” oil wells in Syria. Russia has plans to invade Israel for the gas and oil wells in the Mediterranean Sea coast. But they’ll be burned up on the mountains if Israel. Amir says that God’s people will be removed from the earth before the most horrible things yet to come. He said the Holy Spirit dwelling in God’s people are serving as a deterrent these days. I believe he’s right or mighty close to it. Lift thy head... the day draws near. When our Master shall appear! Glory Hallelujah! Come, Lord Jesus, come! 😊 ** I enjoy listening Amir T. very much on Jesus is the Immanuel= immanu means within us and El is God. Jesus/Christ is Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. This is truly amazing revelation coming from a Jew. When I have time I will listen more of his video on different interesting topics he has available.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 27, 2019 19:35:03 GMT -5
I just listened to Amir Tsarfati. He is so good at showing how the world events are prophecied in the OT. The Syria/Turkey/Russia situation is foretold Especially in Ezekiel and how this timelines in with Matthew 24. He says we as Christians need to lift our eyes for the day draws near for the Rapture if his bride. I’ve said all along Trump fits the description of the Antichrist for he gains countries trust, then he turns in them. Everyone except Russia and this is prophesied in Ezekiel. That Russia seeks control of the Middle East only because of the rich oil and gas wells. Now Putin has Trump using US soldiers guarding “his” oil wells in Syria. Russia has plans to invade Israel for the gas and oil wells in the Mediterranean Sea coast. But they’ll be burned up on the mountains if Israel. Amir says that God’s people will be removed from the earth before the most horrible things yet to come. He said the Holy Spirit dwelling in God’s people are serving as a deterrent these days. I believe he’s right or mighty close to it. Lift thy head... the day draws near. When our Master shall appear! Glory Hallelujah! Come, Lord Jesus, come! 😊 ** I enjoy listening Amir T. very much on Jesus is the Immanuel= immanu means within us and El is God. Jesus/Christ is Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. This is truly amazing revelation coming from a Jew. When I have time I will listen more of his video on different interesting topics he has available. It seems to me he makes the OT more interesting!
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Post by nathan on Oct 27, 2019 20:52:25 GMT -5
** I enjoy listening Amir T. very much on Jesus is the Immanuel= immanu means within us and El is God. Jesus/Christ is Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. This is truly amazing revelation coming from a Jew. When I have time I will listen more of his video on different interesting topics he has available. It seems to me he makes the OT more interesting! Yes, he does. I have been saying for years on TMB, that Christ is God Yahweh in the Old Testament. He was the children of Israel Savior and leading and protecting them out of Egypt in the Exodus and 40 yrs through the wilderness/desert. In the Garden of Eden Christ/God Yahweh had fellowship with Adam and Eve in human form before the Fall.
Christ/God appeared to Abraham and Sarah in human form to tell them about the birth of Isaac in Genesis chapters 17-19. Christ shared with Abraham His plan of Salvation for mankind through the sacrifice of the lamb of God/Jesus, who came down from heaven the Immanuel= God with us to redeem our sins and take the key of death from Satan in hades.
Satan had held the key of death on mankind souls for 4000 yrs, after Christ/God Jesus paid the ransom price on Calvary he took the key of death from him and grant to the Old and New Testament believers eternal life.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 27, 2019 22:21:08 GMT -5
Amir Tsarfati is Jewish but also a Christian.
As for his "prophecies," - there have been many such "prophets" throughout the 2000+ years and the all their "prophecies" have come to naught.
For some reason each generations seems to believe they are living in the "end times."
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 27, 2019 22:48:25 GMT -5
Amir Tsarfati is Jewish but also a Christian.
As for his "prophecies," - there have been many such "prophets" throughout the 2000+ years and the all their "prophecies" have come to naught.
For some reason each generations seems to believe they are living in the "end times."
Agreed. There are literally thousands of movies and books and daily headlines “screaming “ end times , apocalypse etc , and us humans keep lapping it up. We are somehow fascinated by that subject , and credit thereason for the “end times “, to every kind of imaginable human or “godly” activity . So it is . Does create lots skepticism to present day “doomsayers“ Alvin
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Post by chuck on Oct 28, 2019 5:33:18 GMT -5
Again, Abraham was justified before his salvation journey. Please explain why? And why it is different today that we need a salvation journey?. Are you suggesting that Abraham wasn't on a life journey with God?
www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48930707.html
This "doesnt apply to me attitude" has me baffled. Every thing in the bible is relevant to us today. I'm baffled by how you come to make such a remark?No, Im suggesting Abraham was Justified 30 years before He was going to sacrifice Isaac. How does that happen if you need a lifetime of works to earn salvation. I make such a remark because you dismiss a lot of what I'm saying because you think its only relevant to old the law and not relevant to us today.
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Post by chuck on Oct 28, 2019 5:44:28 GMT -5
Do you keep the commandments(law) perfectly?. If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. - James 2:8-11 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:8-11&version=NIVThis is why I rely on the mercy of God and the shed blood of Christ my intercessor, provisions made for my shortcomings. Salvation is a journey with its victories and failures. But how do you know what are victories and what are failures? Who decides?. You?, Me? Even victories in our minds are sin. So how on earth are you going to be saved by your life times good works of sin?. Maybe just maybe God's grace and love is greater than we can comprehend. It has no boundaries!.
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Post by chuck on Oct 28, 2019 6:13:36 GMT -5
The bible says exactly that. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:8-10 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-10&version=NIVTrust that Christ can save you. Salvation. Once your saved you do righteous good works because sin is no longer your master. In that specific order. Not, Trust Christ can save you. A lifetime journey of saving good works. Then salvation. No where in the bible is it in that order. The works up until your salvation are not Justified so why will they count to your salvation?. Ah...I see. Once saved always saved, or those who turn away from Christ were never true believers in the first place, etc? Get thee behind me satan. Here is a little analogy for you to consider. I fall into a fast flowing, deep river and am in grave danger of being swept away and drowned. Virgs, sees my plight and throws me a lifeline, which I manage to grasp and hold onto tightly. It has stopped me being swept away by the current and will do so as long as I hold on. As I am being pulled towards the safety of the bank (read life's journey), I can contextually say concerning my plight....'I have been saved,' 'I am in the process of being saved,' 'I will be saved,' etc. All these statements are correct in their own context, but my salvation is certain once my perilous journey is over. My salvation is assured if I hold tightly onto my lifeline. If I let go my lifeline or turn away from my rescuer, my salvation is at grave risk. Once more - Grace saves us. It empowers us to do the good works that God has called us to do. These good works are an essential PART of salvation. They are not an add on or follow on. They are part and parcel of salvation. I think your mind is screwed up with visions of human works? We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. We must have faith. That faith must be a living faith not a dead one. A dead faith has no works. Our works give life to our faith. These works come through obedience to God. He gives us grace to do his will. He prepares our works in advance for us to do with his help. Go and do a study of the seven churches in Asia mentioned in Revelation 1-3. What is the common denominator in God's address to these churches? Most had things they had to repent of, but one or two received commendation. However, ALL seven of them were firmly engaged by the same words.....'I know thy works!' Their works were all important to God. That is how God began his address to them all. How it can be implied that our works follow on from salvation is clearly false. Quite simply, we are called into God's service to do his good works along our salvation journey. I would say Virgs is not God. God doesnt leave you hanging in the water. When you believe he can actually save you, BAM, your on the bank!. Your works then show your faith is true! 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. - John 5:24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:24&version=NIVIf you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NIVWhich bit here suggests your left clinging onto a lifline giving it your all, sacrificing this and that, repenting from sin daily. Sounds like a life of bondage to me. Sounds like you dont really think Virgs can save you unless you do a bit to help, you know get yourself over the line so to speak. No good works are important for our faith not our salvation. Everything we do is human works. Thats why we need saving!. P.S pro tip, I'd ditch Virgs, he sounds like a wannabe.
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Post by chuck on Oct 28, 2019 6:31:11 GMT -5
Salvation is like making 5 years car or mortgage 30 yrs house payments as long you keep making payments every month then you can drive the car or live in the house, but if for some reasons you can't/refuse to make the payment for 3 months then the bank will give you written notice and they will take back the car, the house.
We must work almost every day to make money so we can make the payments. Salvation is FREE but works and commitment must follow to the end of the term/life. Jesus said in Matthew 24, "He that ENDURES unto the END shall be SAVED." I disagree. You just said you have to work for your salvation right after you said it was free. ? Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. - Romans 4:4 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:4&version=NIV24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. - John 5:24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:24&version=NIVMatthew 24 is talking about enduring the 7 year tribulation period and saving of the flesh. Nothing whatsoever about good works for salvation as you have suggested.
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Post by chuck on Oct 28, 2019 7:07:04 GMT -5
Oh so God's grace was different in the old testament? He didn't require good works then but does now?. Abraham was justified when he believed, before all his good works, justified before lifetime of good works!. Why is God's grace different today?. Why does it require a life time of works for salvation today but not in Abraham's day?. Your dismissal of works salvation teaching due to being old testament law is rediculous. Are you suggesting we don't do law based works today?. We do it every day. Even our good works are sin, even if you do it for the right reason it is pride, which is sin!. Formerly, the Jews had to observe the OT laws and ordinances in accordance with their faith. God's Spirit, though active, was not poured out at that time. The Prophet Joel foretold of a time (Pentecost) when God would pour out his spirit onto his people. This is known as the Age of Grace which superseded the former Age of the Law. God's people are no longer under the age of law (which was imperfect) but are now under the age of Grace (which is perfect). We live by a higher level than the law. Joel 2:28-32 King James Version (KJV) 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Every true believer now has access to God's Spirit which is sent to dwell within them and lead them through their lives. If you study Matthew 5, 6 and 7, known as the Sermon on the Mount, which occurred at the beginning of Christ's ministry, this was the beginning of the transitional period from the Age of the Law to the Age of Grace. Jesus was comparing how things were formerly under the law, with how things would be under the New Testament Age of Grace. Things were taken to a new perfect level. The Jews, particularly the Pharisees, under the OT laws, etc., believed their good works done under the law made them righteous, in fact it made them self righteous and boastful. This is the Spirit that Paul was addressing during the transitional period. He explained to the Romans and Ephesians that we are not saved by these good works (lest any man should boast) (Ephesians 2 full chapter + Romans 10 + 11 both full chapters), but we are saved by grace (God's strengthening spirit) which enables us to do the good works that God has created us in Christ to do. We cannot do the good works of God in our own strength. We need God's empowering grace to do them. It is exactly how God worked through his human being son and it is the same with us. We must be obedient to the Word of God which is the power of God through faith unto salvation. Salvation is the culmination of a life journey. It is NOT a one off event. We live by a higher level than the law? ?. We are still unworthy in this age of grace so all you are doing is comparing levels of unworthiness. We are just like the modern day pharisees, we have laws, we believe our good works under our laws make us righteous. It also makes us self righteous and boastful. You can't dismiss these works teaching because we are not under the old law and think we are above them for various justifiable reasons in our minds. That's a sin right there. PRIDE!.
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Post by nathan on Oct 28, 2019 7:56:15 GMT -5
I disagree. You just said you have to work for your salvation right after you said it was free. ? Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. - Romans 4:4 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:4&version=NIV24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. - John 5:24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:24&version=NIV Matthew 24 is talking about enduring the 7 year tribulation period and saving of the flesh. Nothing whatsoever about good works for salvation as you have suggested. ~~ No, Matthew 24 wasn't talking about 7 yrs tribulation but tribulation and trials of faith from the time of Jesus to the time of His returns to earth to RULE and REIGN as King of kings. Matthew 24 is NOT about saving of the flesh but of the souls/salvation!
Salvation is FREE but we MUST be true to God and Christ New Testament covenant to the END to be SAVED. Jesus said in Matthew 24:4-14. 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.~~ We see these things are happening in our own generation and on TMB for years! friends and some workers are no longer serving God, some have become atheists. Many friends have left the 2x2s and join other churches. Some have come back to serving the Living God again but very few have done that. This has happened in the 1st century church and through down the centuries...
Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb. 10:35-39 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the souls.
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 10:08:01 GMT -5
No, Im suggesting Abraham was Justified 30 years before He was going to sacrifice Isaac. How does that happen if you need a lifetime of works to earn salvation. You do understand that the OT Law was given to Moses NOT Abraham, ok? It was the works that the Pharisees were doing, many of them their own additions to the OT Law. It was THIS that Paul was addressing in Romans 10 and 11 and Ephesians 2. Please do a proper study. Are you suggesting that Abraham was not obedient to the Word of God through faith and doing works during the 30 years before he was going to sacrifice Isaac? I make such a remark because you dismiss a lot of what I'm saying because you think its only relevant to old the law and not relevant to us today. No. I dismiss a lot of what you are saying because in my opinion it is wrong!
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 10:23:27 GMT -5
Formerly, the Jews had to observe the OT laws and ordinances in accordance with their faith. God's Spirit, though active, was not poured out at that time. The Prophet Joel foretold of a time (Pentecost) when God would pour out his spirit onto his people. This is known as the Age of Grace which superseded the former Age of the Law. God's people are no longer under the age of law (which was imperfect) but are now under the age of Grace (which is perfect). We live by a higher level than the law. Joel 2:28-32 King James Version (KJV) 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Every true believer now has access to God's Spirit which is sent to dwell within them and lead them through their lives. If you study Matthew 5, 6 and 7, known as the Sermon on the Mount, which occurred at the beginning of Christ's ministry, this was the beginning of the transitional period from the Age of the Law to the Age of Grace. Jesus was comparing how things were formerly under the law, with how things would be under the New Testament Age of Grace. Things were taken to a new perfect level. The Jews, particularly the Pharisees, under the OT laws, etc., believed their good works done under the law made them righteous, in fact it made them self righteous and boastful. This is the Spirit that Paul was addressing during the transitional period. He explained to the Romans and Ephesians that we are not saved by these good works (lest any man should boast) (Ephesians 2 full chapter + Romans 10 + 11 both full chapters), but we are saved by grace (God's strengthening spirit) which enables us to do the good works that God has created us in Christ to do. We cannot do the good works of God in our own strength. We need God's empowering grace to do them. It is exactly how God worked through his human being son and it is the same with us. We must be obedient to the Word of God which is the power of God through faith unto salvation. Salvation is the culmination of a life journey. It is NOT a one off event. We live by a higher level than the law? ?. We are still unworthy in this age of grace so all you are doing is comparing levels of unworthiness. You appear to have very serious comprehension difficulties, or you just want to obfuscate what I am saying? The OT Law was NOT perfect. I'm sure you know that much? The Jews observed it in their human strength. The Pharisees were self-righteous over their observances of the law and traditions, even adding to them and it made them boastful. God's grace is the new 'perfect' law if you like. It is a higher standard. We cannot observe it in our human strength. We need God's grace to do the good works that he has called us to do in Christ Jesus. As Jesus said..'I can do nothing of myself. The works that I do are the Father's (by his grace). It is exactly the same with us. We will always be unworthy, no matter what. Bringing this into the debate sounds like a distraction?
We are just like the modern day pharisees, we have laws, we believe our good works under our laws make us righteous. It also makes us self righteous and boastful.
Then you are clearly not under grace. This is a view that does not understand what God's grace is and what it's effect is! The good works of God are not good works under OUR laws, they are good works that he has prepared in advance for us to do.
You can't dismiss these works teaching because we are not under the old law and think we are above them for various justifiable reasons in our minds. That's a sin right there. PRIDE!.
Again, your thinking is so far off the mark, it is difficult to know where to begin.
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 10:28:36 GMT -5
This is why I rely on the mercy of God and the shed blood of Christ my intercessor, provisions made for my shortcomings. Salvation is a journey with its victories and failures. But how do you know what are victories and what are failures? Who decides?. You?, Me? The Holy Spirit guides you. I thought you would have known that.
Even victories in our minds are sin. So how on earth are you going to be saved by your life times good works of sin?. If you do not understand nor experience my above remark, you will never be able to grasp the truth!
Maybe just maybe God's grace and love is greater than we can comprehend. It has no boundaries!. At last we have something we agree on, but do we agree on what God's grace is, what it's purpose is and what its effects are?
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 10:44:38 GMT -5
Ah...I see. Once saved always saved, or those who turn away from Christ were never true believers in the first place, etc? Get thee behind me satan. Here is a little analogy for you to consider. I fall into a fast flowing, deep river and am in grave danger of being swept away and drowned. Virgs, sees my plight and throws me a lifeline, which I manage to grasp and hold onto tightly. It has stopped me being swept away by the current and will do so as long as I hold on. As I am being pulled towards the safety of the bank (read life's journey), I can contextually say concerning my plight....'I have been saved,' 'I am in the process of being saved,' 'I will be saved,' etc. All these statements are correct in their own context, but my salvation is certain once my perilous journey is over. My salvation is assured if I hold tightly onto my lifeline. If I let go my lifeline or turn away from my rescuer, my salvation is at grave risk. Once more - Grace saves us. It empowers us to do the good works that God has called us to do. These good works are an essential PART of salvation. They are not an add on or follow on. They are part and parcel of salvation. I think your mind is screwed up with visions of human works? We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. We must have faith. That faith must be a living faith not a dead one. A dead faith has no works. Our works give life to our faith. These works come through obedience to God. He gives us grace to do his will. He prepares our works in advance for us to do with his help. Go and do a study of the seven churches in Asia mentioned in Revelation 1-3. What is the common denominator in God's address to these churches? Most had things they had to repent of, but one or two received commendation. However, ALL seven of them were firmly engaged by the same words.....'I know thy works!' Their works were all important to God. That is how God began his address to them all. How it can be implied that our works follow on from salvation is clearly false. Quite simply, we are called into God's service to do his good works along our salvation journey. I would say Virgs is not God. God doesnt leave you hanging in the water. When you believe he can actually save you, BAM, your on the bank!. Your works then show your faith is true! 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. - John 5:24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:24&version=NIVIf you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NIVWhich bit here suggests your left clinging onto a lifline giving it your all, sacrificing this and that, repenting from sin daily. Sounds like a life of bondage to me. Sounds like you dont really think Virgs can save you unless you do a bit to help, you know get yourself over the line so to speak. No good works are important for our faith not our salvation. Everything we do is human works. Thats why we need saving!. P.S pro tip, I'd ditch Virgs, he sounds like a wannabe. Our good works justifies us. No justification. No salvation. You cannot separate justification from salvation. Again, salvation is a journey of faith, justified by our good works which God has prepared for us to do. Ephesians 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Your idea of serving God by doing his works as sounding like bondage, does NOT suggest you have a grasp of truth? Did Jesus not say his yoke is easy and his burden is light? A yoke is put on a beast of burden for it to do work. Grace makes the yoke easy and the burden light! Jesus tells us plainly that the works that he did were not human works though to some who did not understand , they appeared to be. He told us plainly that they were his Father's works, not his own. He was full of the grace of God. It is the same with his true followers. The works that they do are not their own, but are the Father's if they are led by God's spirit. Surely you have some understanding of this?
You clearly listen to the theologians, perhaps even popular opinion? Virgs does not. I know which one I would ditch!
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 11:02:52 GMT -5
How about: 1) This is the way to my house (the Father), and 2) I am the way to my house (the Father). He did not say I am the way to my Father's house. He said I am the way, the truth and the life. I am my father are one. Am i me or am I the way to me? You are you, or are you the way to you? Here is what Jesus is recorded as actually having said. He mentions his Father's house in there somewhere and the way to it. I will leave the debate about Jesus and the Father being one to another time, but that is a very simple matter to understand. John 14 King James Version (KJV) 14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.There you have it. 1) Jesus is the way to the Father's house. 2) He is away to prepare a place there for us. 3) He will return some day to take us there. 4) Jesus told the disciples that they already knew the way (ie following him) to the Father's house but at that time they did not understand the correlation. 5) Jesus tells his disciples that HE is the way, the truth and the life that leads to the Father/Father's house. After Jesus was ascended into Heaven, DID or DID NOT his disciples and believers at large, follow him in the way, the truth and the life that he lived? Did they not suffer persecution, martyrdom even, just like Jesus, by embarking on that same journey? Please seriously consider these matters. This is this difference between narrow gate followers and Christianity at large! Did or did not these early followers of Jesus understand what it really meant to believe in and follow him! They were examples of Christ.
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 11:17:05 GMT -5
Ah...I see. Once saved always saved, or those who turn away from Christ were never true believers in the first place, etc? Get thee behind me satan. Here is a little analogy for you to consider. I fall into a fast flowing, deep river and am in grave danger of being swept away and drowned. Virgs, sees my plight and throws me a lifeline, which I manage to grasp and hold onto tightly. It has stopped me being swept away by the current and will do so as long as I hold on. As I am being pulled towards the safety of the bank (read life's journey), I can contextually say concerning my plight....'I have been saved,' 'I am in the process of being saved,' 'I will be saved,' etc. All these statements are correct in their own context, but my salvation is certain once my perilous journey is over. My salvation is assured if I hold tightly onto my lifeline. If I let go my lifeline or turn away from my rescuer, my salvation is at grave risk. Once more - Grace saves us. It empowers us to do the good works that God has called us to do. These good works are an essential PART of salvation. They are not an add on or follow on. They are part and parcel of salvation. I think your mind is screwed up with visions of human works? We are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. We must have faith. That faith must be a living faith not a dead one. A dead faith has no works. Our works give life to our faith. These works come through obedience to God. He gives us grace to do his will. He prepares our works in advance for us to do with his help. Go and do a study of the seven churches in Asia mentioned in Revelation 1-3. What is the common denominator in God's address to these churches? Most had things they had to repent of, but one or two received commendation. However, ALL seven of them were firmly engaged by the same words.....'I know thy works!' Their works were all important to God. That is how God began his address to them all. How it can be implied that our works follow on from salvation is clearly false. Quite simply, we are called into God's service to do his good works along our salvation journey. It's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to do the works of God, not his grace. His grace is God's unmerited favour to us. His goodness to us. You cannot have the grace of God without having his Spirit. Grace is another description or attribute of his Spirit. To say that we are empowered by Grace, or are empowered by God's Spirit, or by GOD or by Jesus (now), means one and the same thing. John tells us that Jesus was 'full of truth and grace.' Jesus did not do the works of God in his own strength. God empowered him to do his good works that he had prepared for him to do. It is a false definition by Protestants who believe that grace is 'God's unmerited favour to us.' The sooner you ditch that thinking the better. Jesus was FULL of God's grace. He was not full of God's unmerited favour. The Bible is clear. Jesus was full of God's MERITED favour. That definition appears nowhere in the Bible. This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Jesus merits all that God has bestowed upon him, even to the ruling over this world today. You cannot put boundaries on God's grace, by definition. It includes many, many things.
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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 11:28:36 GMT -5
Are we now suggesting that the repentant thief on the cross did not receive grace from God to do the good works that God had called him to do in his dying moments? That thief was the only one who supported Jesus in his agony on the cross, whilst all around were baying for his blood. The thief was likewise suffering such agony. He was repentant. He even supported Jesus at a time, the only time, when Jesus thought his Heavenly Father had deserted him. The thief spoke up for Jesus. He did all that he could do. He did not gain salvation easily. In his short, salvation journey, he did mighty works in God's eyes. He received grace to do them. Remember, only a short time beforehand, Peter (no doubt speaking for the other disciples also) stated he was prepared to lay down his life for Jesus, but when the test came, he and the other disciples fled. Two thieves highlight the importance of having grace. One thought only of saving himself from the cross, whilst the other thought about saving himself for all eternity. We should not treat the repentant thief is any light way whatsoever. He did not get salvation easily. Exactly what I’ve been trying to say about any works bringing salvation. Repentance. Repentance is the first step. The thief on the cross was justified by the works that God had prepared for him to do. He spoke out for Jesus in terrible circumstances. Perhaps he was heard by the Centurion (and others) who said 'surely this man is the son of God?' Mark 15.39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Matthew 27.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Who knows the contribution of the repentant thief?
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Post by maryhig on Oct 28, 2019 11:57:34 GMT -5
It's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to do the works of God, not his grace. His grace is God's unmerited favour to us. His goodness to us. You cannot have the grace of God without having his Spirit. Grace is another description or attribute of his Spirit. To say that we are empowered by Grace, or are empowered by God's Spirit, or by GOD or by Jesus (now), means one and the same thing. John tells us that Jesus was 'full of truth and grace.' Jesus did not do the works of God in his own strength. God empowered him to do his good works that he had prepared for him to do. It is a false definition by Protestants who believe that grace is 'God's unmerited favour to us.' The sooner you ditch that thinking the better. Jesus was FULL of God's grace. He was not full of God's unmerited favour. The Bible is clear. Jesus was full of God's MERITED favour. That definition appears nowhere in the Bible. This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Jesus merits all that God has bestowed upon him, even to the ruling over this world today. You cannot put boundaries on God's grace, by definition. It includes many, many things. Yes, and Jesus said that the father never leaves him because he always pleased him. God doesn't give his spirit to those who don't live in obedience to his word.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 28, 2019 12:02:55 GMT -5
Exactly what I’ve been trying to say about any works bringing salvation. Repentance. Repentance is the first step. The thief on the cross was justified by the works that God had prepared for him to do. He spoke out for Jesus in terrible circumstances. Perhaps he was heard by the Centurion (and others) who said 'surely this man is the son of God?' Mark 15.39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Matthew 27.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Who knows the contribution of the repentant thief? Yes, but I also think Jesus praying to the father asking him to forgive those that murdered him would have touched the centurions heart, most people would hate those who persecute them, but Satan had no power over Jesus and he couldn't get him to sin, no matter what he did to him, because the father gave him power over all flesh because Jesus only ever lived by the father's will and denied himself completely and Jesus endured to the end and overcame the devil and this world, leaving us a perfect example to follow. But we can only do it by the grace of God through Christ and through faith.
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Post by snow on Oct 28, 2019 12:24:08 GMT -5
Amir Tsarfati is Jewish but also a Christian.
As for his "prophecies," - there have been many such "prophets" throughout the 2000+ years and the all their "prophecies" have come to naught.
For some reason each generations seems to believe they are living in the "end times."
The book I'm reading written by an ex JW really makes this abundantly clear how much they believe we are in the end times. She writes about her mother saying how she couldn't believe her oldest child had graduated and still under this old corrupt system. Then she remembers her mom saying the same when she graduated. Actually her mom said it every year that went by and the end times still hadn't happened. It makes you understand their mindset really clearly. Yet, I find it somewhat contradictory. Most Christians do not want to die and will do just about anything to survive, even carry a gun in hopes that they won't be killed. Yet they continually want the end times to happen. If heaven is so wonderful why is there such a aversion to dying and so much prayer that is for the most part a plea to their God to keep them safe? It seems so contradictory to me.
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