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Post by mountain on Oct 28, 2019 12:59:15 GMT -5
Repentance is the first step. The thief on the cross was justified by the works that God had prepared for him to do. He spoke out for Jesus in terrible circumstances. Perhaps he was heard by the Centurion (and others) who said 'surely this man is the son of God?' Mark 15.39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Matthew 27.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Who knows the contribution of the repentant thief? Yes, but I also think Jesus praying to the father asking him to forgive those that murdered him would have touched the centurions heart, most people would hate those who persecute them, but Satan had no power over Jesus and he couldn't get him to sin, no matter what he did to him, because the father gave him power over all flesh because Jesus only ever lived by the father's will and denied himself completely and Jesus endured to the end and overcame the devil and this world, leaving us a perfect example to follow. But we can only do it by the grace of God through Christ and through faith. Very true. It's great to get a positive discussion. It should be noted too that this was the only occasion where Jesus himself could not forgive others. He had no power from God to do so. At that stage they were unrepentant and committing the gravest sin. Remember, Jesus received his power to forgive from God himself and the Father was not working through him at that point because of their unrepentant hearts in full flow of murdering his Son. Jesus in his dying agony saw how lost these people were and in his love for others, prayed to his Father and God to forgive them because they knew not what they were doing. It is likely the murderers of Jesus would not be answerable for that sin, because Jesus interceded on their behalf.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 28, 2019 15:48:10 GMT -5
Repentance is the first step. The thief on the cross was justified by the works that God had prepared for him to do. He spoke out for Jesus in terrible circumstances. Perhaps he was heard by the Centurion (and others) who said 'surely this man is the son of God?' Mark 15.39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Matthew 27.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Who knows the contribution of the repentant thief? Yes, but I also think Jesus praying to the father asking him to forgive those that murdered him would have touched the centurions heart, most people would hate those who persecute them, but Satan had no power over Jesus and he couldn't get him to sin, no matter what he did to him, because the father gave him power over all flesh because Jesus only ever lived by the father's will and denied himself completely and Jesus endured to the end and overcame the devil and this world, leaving us a perfect example to follow. But we can only do it by the grace of God through Christ and through faith. I John 4:16. We have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God and God in him. Jesus is the very epitome of that godly love. NIV: Philippians 2:6-8. (Jesus) Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used for his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. Stephen could also say this words, “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” But Stephen was looking at Jesus standing beside the throne, welcoming him into heaven. He was feeling the very strength of Godly love being poured into him by Jesus. I’m as sure of that as I can be sure of anything for this is exactly what Jesus did to me when I saw his precious being! When that kind of love fills you you feel indescribable joy and an ability to forget and forgive is just part of that.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 28, 2019 15:58:56 GMT -5
Amir Tsarfati is Jewish but also a Christian.
As for his "prophecies," - there have been many such "prophets" throughout the 2000+ years and the all their "prophecies" have come to naught.
For some reason each generations seems to believe they are living in the "end times."
They are NOT Amir’s prophecies! They are prophecies from the OT that have come true right before Amir’s and some of the rest of our eyes. The problem you can’t understand that is because the language that the prophets used is not used today because of the differences in what is used to bring all this about these days. For example, a large dark cloud flying fast likely is talking about a flying plane of some kind and since it speaks about Rush being burned on the mounts of Israel that is the Atomic bomb! Zechariah talks about those who will gather to fight against Jerusalem and his people and God’s victory is all flesh will be melted even the horses in battle. And that should any live.... that is the atomic bomb. Edit: Furthermore all this is not far away. Russia is pooling it’s armies into the Middle East as we see at this date. They are into having Trump protect Syrian gas and oil wells. They are moving into Libya to overtake their gas and oil wells. The Russians are bound to take the oil and gas reserves the Israelis have on the Mediterranean sea coast. The Russians are only interested in the oil and gas reserves in the Middle East and they’ve won wide inroads through occupying Syria and now being “”helpful” to Turkey which is their next plan. The Russia government is working to be the ruling world government. As to the one world religion? Catholics are working on that but that may cone after the one world government. The Antichrist was to come first, Im suspecting he’s already present. Daniel says 3and 1/2 years. Looks like the half is getting closer. Supposedly it was the temple to be his palace but again that was the highest regarded building that was known in those days. Why not the WH of USA has been the symbol of world power for some years now? Oh yes, OT prophecies are being fulfilled all around if you just would consider the differences in used languages.
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Post by chuck on Oct 28, 2019 23:30:37 GMT -5
No, Im suggesting Abraham was Justified 30 years before He was going to sacrifice Isaac. How does that happen if you need a lifetime of works to earn salvation. You do understand that the OT Law was given to Moses NOT Abraham, ok? It was the works that the Pharisees were doing, many of them their own additions to the OT Law. It was THIS that Paul was addressing in Romans 10 and 11 and Ephesians 2. Please do a proper study. Are you suggesting that Abraham was not obedient to the Word of God through faith and doing works during the 30 years before he was going to sacrifice Isaac? I make such a remark because you dismiss a lot of what I'm saying because you think its only relevant to old the law and not relevant to us today. No. I dismiss a lot of what you are saying because in my opinion it is wrong!No I'm not suggesting anything of the sorts. Abraham was saved when he believed, before Isaac. Genisis 15:6 declares it. Just the same as Ephesians 2:10 "created in christ" salvation has already happened, the work is done, Christ has sat down!. I have never argued against goodworks, I have argued they are not part of your salvation. Its done when you believe Christ can save you. Finished!. It doesn't take a lifetime of goodworks to complete your salvation. Christ has finished his work!. What more can you add to it that makes it better?. Salvation is Free!. No "buts" or "ifs". How many times has someone in this thread said, "Salvation is free.... buuuut...". As soon as you add the "buuut" its not free. Trampling on the blood of the lamb. Your hung up on OT law. Pauls teachings are just as relevant today as then. Name one law christians have today or have added to Chists salvation.?. If you cant think of one your a pharisee.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 28, 2019 23:42:03 GMT -5
Amir Tsarfati is Jewish but also a Christian.
As for his "prophecies," - there have been many such "prophets" throughout the 2000+ years and the all their "prophecies" have come to naught.
For some reason each generations seems to believe they are living in the "end times."
They are NOT Amir’s prophecies! They are prophecies from the OT that have come true right before Amir’s and some of the rest of our eyes. The problem you can’t understand that is because the language that the prophets used is not used today because of the differences in what is used to bring all this about these days. For example, a large dark cloud flying fast likely is talking about a flying plane of some kind and since it speaks about Rush being burned on the mounts of Israel that is the Atomic bomb! Zechariah talks about those who will gather to fight against Jerusalem and his people and God’s victory is all flesh will be melted even the horses in battle. And that should any live.... that is the atomic bomb. Edit: Furthermore all this is not far away. Russia is pooling it’s armies into the Middle East as we see at this date. They are into having Trump protect Syrian gas and oil wells. They are moving into Libya to overtake their gas and oil wells. The Russians are bound to take the oil and gas reserves the Israelis have on the Mediterranean sea coast. The Russians are only interested in the oil and gas reserves in the Middle East and they’ve won wide inroads through occupying Syria and now being “”helpful” to Turkey which is their next plan. The Russia government is working to be the ruling world government. As to the one world religion? Catholics are working on that but that may cone after the one world government The Antichrist was to come first, Im suspecting he’s already present. Daniel says 3and 1/2 years. Looks like the half is getting closer. Supposedly it was the temple to be his palace but again that was the highest regarded building that was known in those days. Why not the WH of USA has been the symbol of world power for some years now? Oh yes, OT prophecies are being fulfilled all around if you just would consider the differences in used languages. Sorry. I didn't mean Amir’s own "prophecies," -but rather the prophecies he was talking about in the bible.
But such "prophecies" have nothing to do with the "language" used in at the time of the bible as just different terms in today's language.
People have always tried to make those old testament "prophecies" fit into what is happening in their own time!
The reason that people want to believe in "prophecies" is because they are troubled about what is going on and feel unable do anything about it themselves.
Therefore, they want to believe there is SOMEONE in charge!
It is much more difficult for us to accept the responsibility that if anything is to be done about a problem -it is up to US to do it!
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 0:16:59 GMT -5
But how do you know what are victories and what are failures? Who decides?. You?, Me? The Holy Spirit guides you. I thought you would have known that.
Even victories in our minds are sin. So how on earth are you going to be saved by your life times good works of sin?. If you do not understand nor experience my above remark, you will never be able to grasp the truth!
Maybe just maybe God's grace and love is greater than we can comprehend. It has no boundaries!. At last we have something we agree on, but do we agree on what God's grace is, what it's purpose is and what its effects are?
So the holy spirit is guiding me to explain to you how salvation isnt dependant on good works but faith alone. Do you believe me?. I was being sarcastic about God's grace and love, Of course its bigger than we can comprehend. It has no boundaries. Life time works for salvation is putting boundaries on God's grace and love. Man puts boundaries on it today, just like in OT times. Hence Paul teaching about works not saving you is very relevant.
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Post by nathan on Oct 29, 2019 0:25:54 GMT -5
No I'm not suggesting anything of the sorts. Abraham was saved when he believed, before Isaac. Genisis 15:6 declares it. Just the same as Ephesians 2:10 "created in christ" salvation has already happened, the work is done, Christ has sat down!. I have never argued against goodworks, I have argued they are not part of your salvation. Its done when you believe Christ can save you. Finished!. It doesn't take a lifetime of goodworks to complete your salvation. Christ has finished his work!. What more can you add to it that makes it better?. Salvation is Free!. No "buts" or "ifs".How many times has someone in this thread said, "Salvation is free.... buuuut...". As soon as you add the "buuut" its not free. Trampling on the blood of the lamb. Your hung up on OT law. Pauls teachings are just as relevant today as then. Name one law christians have today or have added to Chists salvation.?. If you cant think of one your a pharisee. Salvation is FREE then Jesus said this in Matthew 24:13 "BUT he/she endures unto THE END shall be SAVED." So, what happened to the believers who made only part way, half way, and 3/4 way and gave up in serving God.... are they still saved according to you?
Did Jesus trample on His own blood when he put the word "BUT" there in Matthew 24:13?
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Post by nathan on Oct 29, 2019 0:30:37 GMT -5
I disagree. You just said you have to work for your salvation right after you said it was free. ? Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. - Romans 4:4 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:4&version=NIV24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. - John 5:24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:24&version=NIV Matthew 24 is talking about enduring the 7 year tribulation period and saving of the flesh. Nothing whatsoever about good works for salvation as you have suggested. ~~ No, Matthew 24 wasn't talking about 7 yrs tribulation but tribulation and trials of faith from the time of Jesus to the time of His returns to earth to RULE and REIGN as King of kings. Matthew 24 is NOT about saving of the flesh but of the souls/salvation!
Salvation is FREE but we MUST be true to God and Christ New Testament covenant to the END to be SAVED. Jesus said in Matthew 24:4-14. 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.~~ We see these things are happening in our own generation and on TMB for years! friends and some workers are no longer serving God, some have become atheists. Many friends have left the 2x2s and join other churches. Some have come back to serving the Living God again but very few have done that. This has happened in the 1st century church and through down the centuries...
Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb. 10:35-39 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the souls.
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 1:17:36 GMT -5
No I'm not suggesting anything of the sorts. Abraham was saved when he believed, before Isaac. Genisis 15:6 declares it. Just the same as Ephesians 2:10 "created in christ" salvation has already happened, the work is done, Christ has sat down!. I have never argued against goodworks, I have argued they are not part of your salvation. Its done when you believe Christ can save you. Finished!. It doesn't take a lifetime of goodworks to complete your salvation. Christ has finished his work!. What more can you add to it that makes it better?. Salvation is Free!. No "buts" or "ifs".How many times has someone in this thread said, "Salvation is free.... buuuut...". As soon as you add the "buuut" its not free. Trampling on the blood of the lamb. Your hung up on OT law. Pauls teachings are just as relevant today as then. Name one law christians have today or have added to Chists salvation.?. If you cant think of one your a pharisee. Salvation is FREE then Jesus said this in Matthew 24:13 "BUT he/she endures unto THE END shall be SAVED." So, what happened to the believers who made only part way, half way, and 3/4 way and gave up in serving God.... are they still saved according to you?
Did Jesus trample on His own blood when he put the word "BUT" there in Matthew 24:13?
No because further on in Mat 24:22 he is definitely talking about the flesh in this passage. The Hebrew verses you mentioned covers it if we make it half way. Salvation stands, but if we are enlightened and then reject it we are turning OUR BACK on Christ's sacrifice. Ie, we go back to works we think will make us righteous.
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Post by mountain on Oct 29, 2019 3:26:35 GMT -5
No I'm not suggesting anything of the sorts. Abraham was saved when he believed, before Isaac. Genisis 15:6 declares it. Just the same as Ephesians 2:10 "created in christ" salvation has already happened, the work is done, Christ has sat down!. I have never argued against goodworks, I have argued they are not part of your salvation. Its done when you believe Christ can save you. Finished!. It doesn't take a lifetime of goodworks to complete your salvation. Christ has finished his work!. What more can you add to it that makes it better?. Salvation is Free!. No "buts" or "ifs". How many times has someone in this thread said, "Salvation is free.... buuuut...". As soon as you add the "buuut" its not free. Trampling on the blood of the lamb. Your hung up on OT law. Pauls teachings are just as relevant today as then. Name one law christians have today or have added to Chists salvation.?. If you cant think of one your a pharisee. Once more, salvation is a journey. It is a life. It is a Way. It is a truth. It is not a one off event. Salvation has to be taken as a whole. Salvation in human terms is NOT free. It costs you your life. That has to be surrendered to God to use as he will. Jesus and the NT writers make that abundantly clear. When it comes to these matters, I am only interested in what scripture says, not the opinions or beliefs of others. You are welcome to the popular vote. I am hung up on nothing. But I can see you do not understand how the spirit works. Anyway, here is the way God's laws work under his covenant of grace! Hebrews 10:16-26 King James Version (KJV) 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. So you see, in former times the Jews had to observe the old written law and keep its ordinances. Since the time of Christ we have the more perfect way of keeping God's laws which he writes on our hearts and minds. This is inextricably linked with God's grace. You wanted one example of God's laws today which we must keep. There you have it/them!
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Post by mountain on Oct 29, 2019 3:41:00 GMT -5
So the holy spirit is guiding me to explain to you how salvation isnt dependant on good works but faith alone. Do you believe me?. No. I believe that you are being sarcastic!
I was being sarcastic about God's grace and love, Of course its bigger than we can comprehend. It has no boundaries. Life time works for salvation is putting boundaries on God's grace and love. Man puts boundaries on it today, just like in OT times. Hence Paul teaching about works not saving you is very relevant. I don't believe you are being sarcastic! You've been caught out and looking for wriggle room.
You don't believe there are boundaries on God's love and grace? Are you referring to believers or unbelievers? What about broad gate Christians? You need to rethink matters my dear fellow. Yes God's mercy and love are boundless for those who come to him through his Son.
Paul's teachings were during the transitional period from the keeping of the OT law to the newer perfect way of grace. Paul covered many issues that arose during this time. The Pharisees in particular had created many laws and ordinances of their own. They became self righteous and boastful. It is this and their accompanying works that Paul was addressing in Romans 10-11 and Ephesians 2, as well as elsewhere.
Under the newer, more perfect way of grace, God writes his laws on our hearts. He has called us into Christ to do the good works that he has ordained us to do. That is NOT a one off event. God himself tells us it is a covenant, a contract between two parties if you like. You are called to do the good works of God. That has to be taken as part of the whole. You don't go cutting it up like many theologians. That kills it. Look at the mess it has created! Get a proper understanding of what and why Paul was writing such things to the emerging church.
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 6:39:44 GMT -5
So the holy spirit is guiding me to explain to you how salvation isnt dependant on good works but faith alone. Do you believe me?. No. I believe that you are being sarcastic!
I was being sarcastic about God's grace and love, Of course its bigger than we can comprehend. It has no boundaries. Life time works for salvation is putting boundaries on God's grace and love. Man puts boundaries on it today, just like in OT times. Hence Paul teaching about works not saving you is very relevant. I don't believe you are being sarcastic! You've been caught out and looking for wriggle room.
You don't believe there are boundaries on God's love and grace? Are you referring to believers or unbelievers? What about broad gate Christians? You need to rethink matters my dear fellow. Yes God's mercy and love are boundless for those who come to him through his Son.
Paul's teachings were during the transitional period from the keeping of the OT law to the newer perfect way of grace. Paul covered many issues that arose during this time. The Pharisees in particular had created many laws and ordinances of their own. They became self righteous and boastful. It is this and their accompanying works that Paul was addressing in Romans 10-11 and Ephesians 2, as well as elsewhere.
Under the newer, more perfect way of grace, God writes his laws on our hearts. He has called us into Christ to do the good works that he has ordained us to do. That is NOT a one off event. God himself tells us it is a covenant, a contract between two parties if you like. You are called to do the good works of God. That has to be taken as part of the whole. You don't go cutting it up like many theologians. That kills it. Look at the mess it has created! Get a proper understanding of what and why Paul was writing such things to the emerging church. Maybe just maybe it was sarcasm. What am I wiggling from?. How can you put boundaries on God's love and grace regadless of who it is?, Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world!. Once for all!. No boundaries here!. As Abraham shows, Salvation is not a journey. And even your own pet verse Ephesians 2:10 confrims this. Your talking to yourself when banging on about old/new covenant because I have no argument there which I think Ive made blatantly obvious by not arguing about it. My argument is humans haven't really changed. As you demonstrated by failing my pharisee accusation. Pauls teachings are still relevant today! Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. - Romans 4:9 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:9&version=NIV .
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 6:56:58 GMT -5
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 6:59:34 GMT -5
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 7:00:42 GMT -5
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 7:03:10 GMT -5
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 7:05:26 GMT -5
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 7:28:40 GMT -5
The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts16:29-31&version=NIV
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Post by nathan on Oct 29, 2019 8:03:12 GMT -5
Salvation is FREE then Jesus said this in Matthew 24:13 "BUT he/she endures unto THE END shall be SAVED." So, what happened to the believers who made only part way, half way, and 3/4 way and gave up in serving God.... are they still saved according to you?
Did Jesus trample on His own blood when he put the word "BUT" there in Matthew 24:13?
No because further on in Mat 24:22 he is definitely talking about the flesh in this passage. The Hebrew verses you mentioned covers it if we make it half way. Salvation stands, but if we are enlightened and then reject it we are turning OUR BACK on Christ's sacrifice. Ie, we go back to works we think will make us righteous. Well, NOT according to the teachings of Jesus/God. Have you read what Jesus said to the 7 churches in Revelation? Many of The believers committed some horrible sins, and he told them to REPENT and changed their ways of life or HE will remove their crowns of life and have their names blotted out from the book of life/Salvation.
~~ Jesus said in Rev. 2: 1-7 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;
These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
~~ Rev 2: 8-11 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;
These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
~~ Rev. 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;
These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
~~ Chuck, are you the Once SAVED is always SAVED believer?
Amir Tsarfati: The Book of Life
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnuNJ3m2UHY
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Post by mountain on Oct 29, 2019 8:43:50 GMT -5
I don't believe you are being sarcastic! You've been caught out and looking for wriggle room.
You don't believe there are boundaries on God's love and grace? Are you referring to believers or unbelievers? What about broad gate Christians? You need to rethink matters my dear fellow. Yes God's mercy and love are boundless for those who come to him through his Son.
Paul's teachings were during the transitional period from the keeping of the OT law to the newer perfect way of grace. Paul covered many issues that arose during this time. The Pharisees in particular had created many laws and ordinances of their own. They became self righteous and boastful. It is this and their accompanying works that Paul was addressing in Romans 10-11 and Ephesians 2, as well as elsewhere.
Under the newer, more perfect way of grace, God writes his laws on our hearts. He has called us into Christ to do the good works that he has ordained us to do. That is NOT a one off event. God himself tells us it is a covenant, a contract between two parties if you like. You are called to do the good works of God. That has to be taken as part of the whole. You don't go cutting it up like many theologians. That kills it. Look at the mess it has created! Get a proper understanding of what and why Paul was writing such things to the emerging church. Maybe just maybe it was sarcasm. What am I wiggling from?. The truth perhaps?
How can you put boundaries on God's love and grace regadless of who it is?, Jesus's sacrifice was for the whole world!. Once for all!. No boundaries here!. Do you believe what John wrote in John 3.16 (to give but one example)?
'For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that those who believe in him will have eternal life and not perish!'
Spot the condition in the above verse. Jesus tells us that few will find the way of truth and that few will be saved. Agreed? Are those who do not believe in Jesus the subject of God's great love and mercy, or will they be the subject of his great wrath? I don't need to put boundaries. They are already there! Try reading Matthew 10. There's some more related conditions/boundaries there.
As Abraham shows, Salvation is not a journey. And even your own pet verse Ephesians 2:10 confrims this. Salvation is a journey. It is a proper relationship with God. It is not a one night stand. Here's some reading about Abraham and his journey with God.
foundationsforfreedom.net/References/OT/Pentateuch/Genesis/10Abraham/Genesis12.1_Abraham_Call.html
Your talking to yourself when banging on about old/new covenant because I have no argument there which I think Ive made blatantly obvious by not arguing about it. I still perceive you are lost in a misunderstanding of what works Paul is referring to.
My argument is humans haven't really changed. As you demonstrated by failing my pharisee accusation. Pauls teachings are still relevant today! Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. - Romans 4:9 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:9&version=NIV . Of course Paul's teachings are still relevant today. There are many people observing the ordinances of man rather than walking in the laws of God. Regarding Abraham. Did he have a living faith or a dead faith? If he had a living faith then we can readily conclude that he was justified by his works, even before his preparation to sacrifice Isaac. That event was indeed a great example. Remember, to truly believe what God has said brings blessing.
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Post by mountain on Oct 29, 2019 9:08:12 GMT -5
In order answer this and your several other related questions, can you please explain your understanding of what it entails to 'believe' in Jesus? I'm sure you will agree that we must 'believe with all of our heart?' What does this actually mean in reality? This just might get to the core of our differences?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 29, 2019 14:53:41 GMT -5
In order answer this and your several other related questions, can you please explain your understanding of what it entails to 'believe' in Jesus? I'm sure you will agree that we must 'believe with all of our heart?' What does this actually mean in reality? This just might get to the core of our differences? Believing on Jesus Christ means you must first know exactly who he was,?is and always will be. To believe the record the Father has given about his Son.
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Post by chuck on Oct 29, 2019 18:21:21 GMT -5
In order answer this and your several other related questions, can you please explain your understanding of what it entails to 'believe' in Jesus? I'm sure you will agree that we must 'believe with all of our heart?' What does this actually mean in reality? This just might get to the core of our differences? For Salvation I think this sums it up pretty well. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death. - Hebrews 11:19 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews11:19&version=NIVHebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. bit.ly/kjvbibleappNow that's a faith that works! No life long struggles for salvation if you just BELEIVE Jesus/God can do what he says he can do. Jesus has sat down!. The work has been done!. What else can you add?.
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Post by nathan on Oct 29, 2019 22:35:15 GMT -5
In order answer this and your several other related questions, can you please explain your understanding of what it entails to 'believe' in Jesus? I'm sure you will agree that we must 'believe with all of our heart?' What does this actually mean in reality? This just might get to the core of our differences? For Salvation I think this sums it up pretty well. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death. - Hebrews 11:19 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews11:19&version=NIVHebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. bit.ly/kjvbibleappNow that's a faith that works! No life long struggles for salvation if you just BELEIVE Jesus/God can do what he says he can do. Jesus has sat down!. The work has been done!. What else can you add?. Chuck, I believe you are getting mixed up between the works/laws of Moses and good works of Christians after they had received Salvation.
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Post by Lee on Oct 29, 2019 23:13:07 GMT -5
Is there any other kind? <snip> Yes. Moral nihilism.
It seeds into existential nihilism.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 30, 2019 0:07:42 GMT -5
No I'm not suggesting anything of the sorts. Abraham was saved when he believed, before Isaac. Genisis 15:6 declares it. Just the same as Ephesians 2:10 "created in christ" salvation has already happened, the work is done, Christ has sat down!. I have never argued against goodworks, I have argued they are not part of your salvation. Its done when you believe Christ can save you. Finished!. It doesn't take a lifetime of goodworks to complete your salvation. Christ has finished his work!. What more can you add to it that makes it better?. Salvation is Free!. No "buts" or "ifs".How many times has someone in this thread said, "Salvation is free.... buuuut...". As soon as you add the "buuut" its not free. Trampling on the blood of the lamb. Your hung up on OT law. Pauls teachings are just as relevant today as then. Name one law christians have today or have added to Chists salvation.?. If you cant think of one your a pharisee. Salvation is FREE then Jesus said this in Matthew 24:13 "BUT he/she endures unto THE END shall be SAVED." So, what happened to the believers who made only part way, half way, and 3/4 way and gave up in serving God.... are they still saved according to you?
Did Jesus trample on His own blood when he put the word "BUT" there in Matthew 24:13?
Jesus didn’t say they were saved before they endured. How do we endure? Constant prayer and vigilance to the Master’s voice. There’s nothing else that gives endurance but the constant prayer and watchfulness that Jesus said a believer must do or if when he returns and finds a believer not watching and praying he will assign their portion with the hypocrites.
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Post by chuck on Oct 30, 2019 0:09:45 GMT -5
For Salvation I think this sums it up pretty well. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death. - Hebrews 11:19 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews11:19&version=NIVHebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. bit.ly/kjvbibleappNow that's a faith that works! No life long struggles for salvation if you just BELEIVE Jesus/God can do what he says he can do. Jesus has sat down!. The work has been done!. What else can you add?. Chuck, I believe you are getting mixed up between the works/laws of Moses and good works of Christians after they had received Salvation.
What have I confused?. OT,NT, Moses, Christians man has no responsibility in his eternal salvation!. It is not a lifetime journey to recieve eternal salvation. By the time we can commit a spiritually repsonsible act we are already in possession of eternal salvation. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. bit.ly/kjvbibleapp24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. - John 5:24 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:24&version=NIVEdit, and my answer to your question a few posts above. I am always saved in Christ!, cannot lose salvation in Christ! I cant speak for anyone else. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. - John 10:27-28 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:27-28&version=NIV
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Post by nathan on Oct 30, 2019 0:48:54 GMT -5
Salvation is FREE then Jesus said this in Matthew 24:13 "BUT he/she endures unto THE END shall be SAVED." So, what happened to the believers who made only part way, half way, and 3/4 way and gave up in serving God.... are they still saved according to you?
Did Jesus trample on His own blood when he put the word "BUT" there in Matthew 24:13?
Jesus didn’t say they were saved before they endured. How do we endure? Constant prayer and vigilance to the Master’s voice. There’s nothing else that gives endurance but the constant prayer and watchfulness that Jesus said a believer must do or if when he returns and finds a believer not watching and praying he will assign their portion with the hypocrites. This is how the believers to ENDURE of their tests, trials and temptation from the world, the flesh, and Satan to the end of life to be SAVED. If the believers didn't continue to serve God to the end, then God will assign their portion with the unbelievers.
Read what Jesus said in Matthew 24: 6-13 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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