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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 28, 2019 18:09:43 GMT -5
But Jesus had sure there were swords in his presence so that he would be numbered with the transgressors. It was as prophesied, clear until he was taken off the cross and buried in the tomb . And continued thereafter. Sure the Jews were involved but they shouldn’t be hated for it. The Christians especially need to thank the Jews for their part in making salvation open to the Gentiles. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. Any Christian hating or looking down in the Hews certainly have no idea about Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. But that’s not saying Christian need to becomeJews, but to respect them in their nation as they are Gods people and always will be. You have Paul, not the apostles to thank for making Christianity available to the Gentiles. Actually Peter was the first to convert a Gentile.
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Post by mountain on Nov 28, 2019 18:46:10 GMT -5
You have Paul, not the apostles to thank for making Christianity available to the Gentiles. Actually Peter was the first to convert a Gentile. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. It was he who through Cornelius the Centurion unlocked the door to the Gentiles and unleashed the Holy Spirit to them.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 28, 2019 19:42:48 GMT -5
Actually Peter was the first to convert a Gentile. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. It was he who through Cornelius the Centurion unlocked the door to the Gentiles and unleashed the Holy Spirit to them. The keys of heaven are the keys of David. Otherwords Jesus Christ. Peter and all the Apostles were given the keys of heaven when on Pentecost the Spirit filled them. Isaiah 22:22; Revelations 3:7.
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Post by chuck on Nov 28, 2019 23:50:25 GMT -5
"-otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" Is this hell you are referring to?. "-otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" Is this hell you are referring to?. I am quoting what the bible states, -you know, the "bible", -that book which YOU believe is the "Word of God" But I am an atheist, -that means I am one who doesn't believe the existence of a supreme being or beings.
So therefore, -since I do not believe in your god, -I do not believe that HE will send me or you or anyone else to a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity."
So remember I am only quoting the book that YOU are suppose to believe.
Now, what I DO see all the time is that different Christians will decide what certain passages in that 'Word of God' mean according to what THEY want to believe!
Just as YOU have done!
That is why that there a thousands of different denominations of Christianity and why they argue & have even come to the point of fighting each one another.
Have a nice thanksgiving day!So let me get this straight. Your arguing from a source you do not believe and are telling me what I believe from a source that you dont believe. What are you even doing?? As I pointed out you have picked verses and words out of context to argue something you dont believe and have no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people. You've read it as if it was written yesterday. Hahaha and you have just done the same thing to me with a source you dont believe 🤦♂️. I dont believe in different Christians, I believe there are people who do or do not believe in Christ. Thats it!. The bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus was the final word of God!. If your going to argue from a source you dont believe at least find out what I believe in that source because you are at sea with my beliefs. Funny that!.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 29, 2019 2:13:33 GMT -5
I am quoting what the bible states, -you know, the "bible", -that book which YOU believe is the "Word of God" But I am an atheist, -that means I am one who doesn't believe the existence of a supreme being or beings.
So therefore, -since I do not believe in your god, -I do not believe that HE will send me or you or anyone else to a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity."
So remember I am only quoting the book that YOU are suppose to believe.
Now, what I DO see all the time is that different Christians will decide what certain passages in that 'Word of God' mean according to what THEY want to believe!
Just as YOU have done!
That is why that there a thousands of different denominations of Christianity and why they argue & have even come to the point of fighting each one another.
Have a nice thanksgiving day! So let me get this straight. Your arguing from a source you do not believe and are telling me what I believe from a source that you dont believe. What are you even doing?? As I pointed out you have picked verses and words out of context to argue something you dont believe and have no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people. You've read it as if it was written yesterday. Hahaha and you have just done the same thing to me with a source you dont believe 🤦♂️. I dont believe in different Christians, I believe there are people who do or do not believe in Christ. Thats it!. The bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus was the final word of God!. If your going to argue from a source you dont believe at least find out what I believe in that source because you are at sea with my beliefs. Funny that!. What I am doing is telling you my thoughts about ideas from your source, -the bible, -which I also relied on as truthful information for more than half of my own life.
So, no, - it has nothing to do with my having "no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people."
I was one of those "people."
And NO, - I have not "picked verses and words out of context" as you claim. Those verses were intact & NOT out of context and straight out of the bible.
I imagine that I have studied the bible as long as you have and as much as you have.
YOU may not believe there are different Christians, -but history tells a different story.
If what you claim were true, -there would not be the 1000's of different Christian churches the world over disagreeing on what the bible really means
People are disagreeing with one another right here on TMB, -just as you are doing right now.
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Post by rational on Nov 29, 2019 7:46:16 GMT -5
So let me get this straight. Your arguing from a source you do not believe and are telling me what I believe from a source that you dont believe. What are you even doing?? As I pointed out you have picked verses and words out of context to argue something you dont believe and have no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people. You've read it as if it was written yesterday. Hahaha and you have just done the same thing to me with a source you dont believe 🤦♂️. I dont believe in different Christians, I believe there are people who do or do not believe in Christ. Thats it!. The bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus was the final word of God!. If your going to argue from a source you dont believe at least find out what I believe in that source because you are at sea with my beliefs. Funny that!. In order to have a meaningful discussion there has to be a common point to start from. There is little to be discovered if one party says n\"The bible is myth" and the other side uses the bible as the foundation of their belief. At that point the only available discussion, if one is desired, is to use the common source and point out the inconsistencies with the hope that the believer will see the logical, and sometimes material, inconsistencies and be willing to consider at least looking at alternative evidence.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 29, 2019 8:14:41 GMT -5
So let me get this straight. Your arguing from a source you do not believe and are telling me what I believe from a source that you dont believe. What are you even doing?? As I pointed out you have picked verses and words out of context to argue something you dont believe and have no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people. You've read it as if it was written yesterday. Hahaha and you have just done the same thing to me with a source you dont believe 🤦♂️. I dont believe in different Christians, I believe there are people who do or do not believe in Christ. Thats it!. The bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus was the final word of God!. If your going to argue from a source you dont believe at least find out what I believe in that source because you are at sea with my beliefs. Funny that!. In order to have a meaningful discussion there has to be a common point to start from. There is little to be discovered if one party says n\"The bible is myth" and the other side uses the bible as the foundation of their belief. At that point the only available discussion, if one is desired, is to use the common source and point out the inconsistencies with the hope that the believer will see the logical, and sometimes material, inconsistencies and be willing to consider at least looking at alternative evidence. Or vice versa.
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Post by Annan on Nov 29, 2019 8:18:58 GMT -5
In order to have a meaningful discussion there has to be a common point to start from. There is little to be discovered if one party says n\"The bible is myth" and the other side uses the bible as the foundation of their belief. That made me howl! I can't have a meaningful discussion with my dad when throws down, "The Bible says..."
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Post by chuck on Nov 29, 2019 9:08:27 GMT -5
So let me get this straight. Your arguing from a source you do not believe and are telling me what I believe from a source that you dont believe. What are you even doing?? As I pointed out you have picked verses and words out of context to argue something you dont believe and have no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people. You've read it as if it was written yesterday. Hahaha and you have just done the same thing to me with a source you dont believe 🤦♂️. I dont believe in different Christians, I believe there are people who do or do not believe in Christ. Thats it!. The bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus was the final word of God!. If your going to argue from a source you dont believe at least find out what I believe in that source because you are at sea with my beliefs. Funny that!. What I am doing is telling you my thoughts about ideas from your source, -the bible, -which I also relied on as truthful information for more than half of my own life.
So, no, - it has nothing to do with my having "no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people."
I was one of those "people."
And NO, - I have not "picked verses and words out of context" as you claim. Those verses were intact & NOT out of context and straight out of the bible.
I imagine that I have studied the bible as long as you have and as much as you have.
YOU may not believe there are different Christians, -but history tells a different story.
If what you claim were true, -there would not be the 1000's of different Christian churches the world over disagreeing on what the bible really means
People are disagreeing with one another right here on TMB, -just as you are doing right now.Yep so you are doing exactly what you are accusing me off. Which I dont think is a bad thing because it promotes critical thinking. I believe it still is truthful information but religion has fried your brain and put a horrible image of God in your head(not being disrespectful) which is sad and a lot of people have a lot to answer for, many are ignorant of the fact!. Religion has put this image in peoples head of God, Angels, Heaven, Hell, Devil in a way to control them. Like your verses about the eternal fire. That is actually referring to Ghenna, the town rubbish dump were the fires never go out. A place on earth. Jesus is more concerned about hell on earth but religion has turned this into eternal damnation and agonising fire, hot dripping lava ect ect. Yes that may happen but this is not what Jesus is talking about, he is saying, change your rubbish dump life! and stop affecting others with your crap life otherwise it will be like hell on earth for you. Yes that's my interpretation but go and look at the original language and see what hell was translated from in that passage. Yes I have studied the bible as well, but unless you look elsewhere its hard to find true meaning for a lot of it. Hebrew history, culture and language is a great place to start. Hardly encouraged by religion though. Much easier to tell you your going to be tourtered by eternal fire and worms if you dont do this this and this!, what a load of crap!. I know history tells a different story about Christians, I agree with you. Would you not agree that debate is better than no debate?, it leads to better things!. Its throughout history, the bible as well.
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Post by chuck on Nov 29, 2019 9:27:01 GMT -5
In order to have a meaningful discussion there has to be a common point to start from. There is little to be discovered if one party says n\"The bible is myth" and the other side uses the bible as the foundation of their belief. That made me howl! I can't have a meaningful discussion with my dad when throws down, "The Bible says..." If you look it was the Atheist that threw the fist verse!.
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Post by chuck on Nov 29, 2019 9:46:32 GMT -5
So let me get this straight. Your arguing from a source you do not believe and are telling me what I believe from a source that you dont believe. What are you even doing?? As I pointed out you have picked verses and words out of context to argue something you dont believe and have no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people. You've read it as if it was written yesterday. Hahaha and you have just done the same thing to me with a source you dont believe 🤦♂️. I dont believe in different Christians, I believe there are people who do or do not believe in Christ. Thats it!. The bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus was the final word of God!. If your going to argue from a source you dont believe at least find out what I believe in that source because you are at sea with my beliefs. Funny that!. In order to have a meaningful discussion there has to be a common point to start from. There is little to be discovered if one party says n\"The bible is myth" and the other side uses the bible as the foundation of their belief. At that point the only available discussion, if one is desired, is to use the common source and point out the inconsistencies with the hope that the believer will see the logical, and sometimes material, inconsistencies and be willing to consider at least looking at alternative evidence. Having a meaningful discussion about something you dont believe in with the basis of your argument being from a source you dont believe in with only one concept of the said false source and not be willing to consider alternative evidence of the said false source is not a really compelling argument. Especially when the one your trying to convince does not agree with your understanding of the said false source that you assumed everyone sees it as you do.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 12:50:20 GMT -5
IMO, they are not knowledgeable Christians. For Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. He will return to Jerusalem to reign his millennial reign. So either they are plumb ignorant or they aren’t real Christians. Plumb ignorant is my choice of the two.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 12:55:19 GMT -5
Then why do you hold what some atheists did against them still. Why do you say Hitler was an atheist? He was a theist, albeit a poor one, and he's dead and gone. I’m not sure of what you’re referring to. Sorry that was pretty vague. Hear is what you said that I was responding to. But not all Christians hate or vilify the Jews. Nor should they. What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong.
When something is done in the world by a believing theist, but it's not what most theists believe is good, they tend to then ignore the fact that they were theists and instead label them as atheists because they weren't 'true Christian's'. So by doing that you can continue to believe that they have committed unforgivable sins if they can be labeled as atheists, but when I say that Christians did horrific things like the inquisition then you say What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong. Do you see what I mean? If an atheist does something we all consider to be horrible, well it's because he's an atheist and what more can you expect from them. But if it's a theist we somehow can't blame them if they commit these horrible acts and should understand they were somehow just misguided and it's even sinful to hold them responsible for what they did. Yet it's okay to hold what atheists did over them. It's a double standard and it's made even worse when Christians like Hitler did things that were horrific, that theists then deny he was a Christian and call him an atheist. Not sure I did a better job of explaining here.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 13:04:30 GMT -5
You have Paul, not the apostles to thank for making Christianity available to the Gentiles. Actually Peter was the first to convert a Gentile. Paul had far more access to the Gentiles than Peter. He was a Hellenistic Jew that traveled and preached to the Gentiles, not the Jews. I'm sure they both did some, but the bulk of what you believe today comes from Paul and he is responsible for allowing the Gentiles to join without having been circumcised which of course was a pretty big deterrent before that.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 29, 2019 13:22:45 GMT -5
I’m not sure of what you’re referring to. Sorry that was pretty vague. Hear is what you said that I was responding to. But not all Christians hate or vilify the Jews. Nor should they. What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong.
When something is done in the world by a believing theist, but it's not what most theists believe is good, they tend to then ignore the fact that they were theists and instead label them as atheists because they weren't 'true Christian's'. So by doing that you can continue to believe that they have committed unforgivable sins if they can be labeled as atheists, but when I say that Christians did horrific things like the inquisition then you say What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong. Do you see what I mean? If an atheist does something we all consider to be horrible, well it's because he's an atheist and what more can you expect from them. But if it's a theist we somehow can't blame them if they commit these horrible acts and should understand they were somehow just misguided and it's even sinful to hold them responsible for what they did. Yet it's okay to hold what atheists did over them. It's a double standard and it's made even worse when Christians like Hitler did things that were horrific, that theists then deny he was a Christian and call him an atheist. Not sure I did a better job of explaining here. Well, you can’t lump me into Christian Crusades for excusing any of that. It was not okay in my books. It’s very repulsive to me anyone murder another in such hatred regardless of their reasons for their actions. The part that is the truth of the Christian Crusades, it may well have been Christians who gave the command but then they hired “for hire knights” who were hired killers regardless the cause. Those men did that way to just earn a living, sometimes they got recognized and some times they didn’t. It still was murder for hire. Paid by people who hated other people. Bible says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer. Hitler’s methods of annihilating a race was as cold blooded as it comes. Murder was only part of it. Pure torture and starving them to death. Medical and scientific experiments they wouldn’t do on animals. That’s what I hold against him. If you ever saw a picture of some of the survivors taken from the Auchswitz prison; they were as close to walking dead as a human can be. No life in their eyes, no hope, no joy left. That just tore my insides out to see humans treated so evilly and brought to nothing but barely living skin and bones. What kept them a live is a small miracle but not in their minds it wasn’t.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 29, 2019 13:27:37 GMT -5
Actually Peter was the first to convert a Gentile. Paul had far more access to the Gentiles than Peter. He was a Hellenistic Jew that traveled and preached to the Gentiles, not the Jews. I'm sure they both did some, but the bulk of what you believe today comes from Paul and he is responsible for allowing the Gentiles to join without having been circumcised which of course was a pretty big deterrent before that. Actually there came a time when the Apostles did what Jesus told them to do and go unto all the world. That happened after Nero and his mother scattered the first century churches and killed so many. It was that which got the Apostles out of Jerusalem into other countries. So they did get into Gentile preaching very much so, it’s just not recorded in the Bible we use.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 14:02:14 GMT -5
In order to have a meaningful discussion there has to be a common point to start from. There is little to be discovered if one party says n\"The bible is myth" and the other side uses the bible as the foundation of their belief. That made me howl! I can't have a meaningful discussion with my dad when throws down, "The Bible says..." Once the bible is quoted to provide their rational, the conversation is over. Since we don't believe in all the myths out there, why do they think we will believe the one they believe in? Just because they believe in it? They should understand 'not believing' because they have no problem not believing in any other Gods or sacred books. Well when it comes to their God and book, that exactly what it's like for us too. It sounds just as unbelievable to us as Allah and the Koran is unbelievable to Christians. None can prove their book is the right Book, nor their God is the Right God.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 14:08:42 GMT -5
Sorry that was pretty vague. Hear is what you said that I was responding to. But not all Christians hate or vilify the Jews. Nor should they. What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong.
When something is done in the world by a believing theist, but it's not what most theists believe is good, they tend to then ignore the fact that they were theists and instead label them as atheists because they weren't 'true Christian's'. So by doing that you can continue to believe that they have committed unforgivable sins if they can be labeled as atheists, but when I say that Christians did horrific things like the inquisition then you say What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong. Do you see what I mean? If an atheist does something we all consider to be horrible, well it's because he's an atheist and what more can you expect from them. But if it's a theist we somehow can't blame them if they commit these horrible acts and should understand they were somehow just misguided and it's even sinful to hold them responsible for what they did. Yet it's okay to hold what atheists did over them. It's a double standard and it's made even worse when Christians like Hitler did things that were horrific, that theists then deny he was a Christian and call him an atheist. Not sure I did a better job of explaining here. Well, you can’t lump me into Christian Crusades for excusing any of that. It was not okay in my books. It’s very repulsive to me anyone murder another in such hatred regardless of their reasons for their actions. The part that is the truth of the Christian Crusades, it may well have been Christians who gave the command but then they hired “for hire knights” who were hired killers regardless the cause. Those men did that way to just earn a living, sometimes they got recognized and some times they didn’t. It still was murder for hire. Paid by people who hated other people. Bible says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer. Hitler’s methods of annihilating a race was as cold blooded as it comes. Murder was only part of it. Pure torture and starving them to death. Medical and scientific experiments they wouldn’t do on animals. That’s what I hold against him. If you ever saw a picture of some of the survivors taken from the Auchswitz prison; they were as close to walking dead as a human can be. No life in their eyes, no hope, no joy left. That just tore my insides out to see humans treated so evilly and brought to nothing but barely living skin and bones. What kept them a live is a small miracle but not in their minds it wasn’t. Exactly, I can't lump you into what happened with the crusades or the inquisition. So why do Christians lump all atheists in with Hitler (who wasn't even an atheist in the first place) Stalin and Pol Pot? If I can't hold you responsible for the Crusades and the Inquisition, then why do Christians not see that lumping all atheists in with the fanatics that just happened to be atheist is alright? Those Christians were fanatics but I don't few you like them. I think maybe it's time for theists to quit labeling atheists as killers just because there were a couple in history that were atheist and also did horrific acts like Christians in the Crusades and inquisition. But that's exactly what happens when a Christian denies Hitlers horrific acts and says he's an atheist because a true Christian wouldn't do that. Wrong. It's an insult to wonderful non believers everywhere. And, for many who do that, that's exactly what they like to infer. Many who believed they were Christians did horrific things. But that doesn't make all Christians like those fanatic Christians. Nor does what Stalin and Pol Pot did make all atheists bad by association.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 14:10:21 GMT -5
Paul had far more access to the Gentiles than Peter. He was a Hellenistic Jew that traveled and preached to the Gentiles, not the Jews. I'm sure they both did some, but the bulk of what you believe today comes from Paul and he is responsible for allowing the Gentiles to join without having been circumcised which of course was a pretty big deterrent before that. Actually there came a time when the Apostles did what Jesus told them to do and go unto all the world. That happened after Nero and his mother scattered the first century churches and killed so many. It was that which got the Apostles out of Jerusalem into other countries. So they did get into Gentile preaching very much so, it’s just not recorded in the Bible we use. Yes they did go at some point, true. But Paul was the true pioneer way before they started to try and bring in the Gentiles in the numbers he did.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 29, 2019 16:40:33 GMT -5
Well, you can’t lump me into Christian Crusades for excusing any of that. It was not okay in my books. It’s very repulsive to me anyone murder another in such hatred regardless of their reasons for their actions. The part that is the truth of the Christian Crusades, it may well have been Christians who gave the command but then they hired “for hire knights” who were hired killers regardless the cause. Those men did that way to just earn a living, sometimes they got recognized and some times they didn’t. It still was murder for hire. Paid by people who hated other people. Bible says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer. Hitler’s methods of annihilating a race was as cold blooded as it comes. Murder was only part of it. Pure torture and starving them to death. Medical and scientific experiments they wouldn’t do on animals. That’s what I hold against him. If you ever saw a picture of some of the survivors taken from the Auchswitz prison; they were as close to walking dead as a human can be. No life in their eyes, no hope, no joy left. That just tore my insides out to see humans treated so evilly and brought to nothing but barely living skin and bones. What kept them a live is a small miracle but not in their minds it wasn’t. Exactly, I can't lump you into what happened with the crusades or the inquisition. So why do Christians lump all atheists in with Hitler (who wasn't even an atheist in the first place) Stalin and Pol Pot? If I can't hold you responsible for the Crusades and the Inquisition, then why do Christians not see that lumping all atheists in with the fanatics that just happened to be atheist is alright? Those Christians were fanatics but I don't few you like them. I think maybe it's time for theists to quit labeling atheists as killers just because there were a couple in history that were atheist and also did horrific acts like Christians in the Crusades and inquisition. But that's exactly what happens when a Christian denies Hitlers horrific acts and says he's an atheist because a true Christian wouldn't do that. Wrong. It's an insult to wonderful non believers everywhere. And, for many who do that, that's exactly what they like to infer. Many who believed they were Christians did horrific things. But that doesn't make all Christians like those fanatic Christians. Nor does what Stalin and Pol Pot did make all atheists bad by association. I think Hitler was a person only for himself. That in itself is anti-God! He was no more Christian then the Rocky Mountains are. At least they were made by God’s Son. You keep saying Hitler was a Christian, but his works prove he WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN even by the loosest of meanings. HE WAS A LIAR. He lied about that so he’d get the backing of SOME HIGH-UP CHRISTIANS such as the pope etc. Why can you not see that . That is exactly the same thing Donald Trump does. The Christians backing Trump are proving themselves blind and ignorant as to what Trump is and has been his entire life—lawless. He’s just had the money to color the picture up with lawsuits and other legal maneuvers and consistently lying so much that even the smartest people have bought his song and dance. But they still are ignorant in that action. Trump is another Hitler-like person. It is said he has books and tapes at home that are all about Hitler and his ways of conning people by lying. It’s worked for Hitler, it’s working for Trump. But God hates Liars and unrepentant liars meet their reward sooner or later. It was said during his campaign that Putin had been schooling Trump for the Presidency since 2008. He likely was the one who gave him the Hitler studies and likely most are taped because Putin would be well aware Trump can’t read.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 29, 2019 16:44:47 GMT -5
Actually there came a time when the Apostles did what Jesus told them to do and go unto all the world. That happened after Nero and his mother scattered the first century churches and killed so many. It was that which got the Apostles out of Jerusalem into other countries. So they did get into Gentile preaching very much so, it’s just not recorded in the Bible we use. Yes they did go at some point, true. But Paul was the true pioneer way before they started to try and bring in the Gentiles in the numbers he did. He was chosen by Jesus for that very reason. People say Peter worked in Rome. There is no true evidence Peter was in Rome. The only Apostle known to have been in Rime was Paul.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 17:15:59 GMT -5
Exactly, I can't lump you into what happened with the crusades or the inquisition. So why do Christians lump all atheists in with Hitler (who wasn't even an atheist in the first place) Stalin and Pol Pot? If I can't hold you responsible for the Crusades and the Inquisition, then why do Christians not see that lumping all atheists in with the fanatics that just happened to be atheist is alright? Those Christians were fanatics but I don't few you like them. I think maybe it's time for theists to quit labeling atheists as killers just because there were a couple in history that were atheist and also did horrific acts like Christians in the Crusades and inquisition. But that's exactly what happens when a Christian denies Hitlers horrific acts and says he's an atheist because a true Christian wouldn't do that. Wrong. It's an insult to wonderful non believers everywhere. And, for many who do that, that's exactly what they like to infer. Many who believed they were Christians did horrific things. But that doesn't make all Christians like those fanatic Christians. Nor does what Stalin and Pol Pot did make all atheists bad by association. I think Hitler was a person only for himself. That in itself is anti-God! He was no more Christian then the Rocky Mountains are. At least they were made by God’s Son. You keep saying Hitler was a Christian, but his works prove he WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN even by the loosest of meanings. HE WAS A LIAR. He lied about that so he’d get the backing of SOME HIGH-UP CHRISTIANS such as the pope etc. Why can you not see that . That is exactly the same thing Donald Trump does. The Christians backing Trump are proving themselves blind and ignorant as to what Trump is and has been his entire life—lawless. He’s just had the money to color the picture up with lawsuits and other legal maneuvers and consistently lying so much that even the smartest people have bought his song and dance. But they still are ignorant in that action. Trump is another Hitler-like person. It is said he has books and tapes at home that are all about Hitler and his ways of conning people by lying. It’s worked for Hitler, it’s working for Trump. But God hates Liars and unrepentant liars meet their reward sooner or later. It was said during his campaign that Putin had been schooling Trump for the Presidency since 2008. He likely was the one who gave him the Hitler studies and likely most are taped because Putin would be well aware Trump can’t read. I'm obviously not getting the point across clearly. Just because Hitler did horrific things does not make him an atheist. I don't know how to be any clearer. He said he was a Christian, he identified as a Christian. Yes, he wasn't very Christ like and I agree he was power hungry. But he did have the backing of other Christians even the archbishop of Germany. Were they all not Christians, even though they say they were? You insult atheists when someone you deem wasn't one of yours, even though they said they were, you then claim was an atheist. Why? Because only an atheist would do what Hitler did in your mind? That's completely not true, but I hear it often from theists. If one of theirs does something bad then they say he must be an atheist. You find it insulting when we claim religions are bad because of the inquisition etc. so why don't theists understand that it's insulting to claim a person that identifies as a Christian gets called an atheist when they do something bad? It's like theists think that only atheists can do something bad. Anyway, I guess this subject has been beaten to death and we should just let it be an 'agree to disagree' topic.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 29, 2019 17:40:27 GMT -5
I think Hitler was a person only for himself. That in itself is anti-God! He was no more Christian then the Rocky Mountains are. At least they were made by God’s Son. You keep saying Hitler was a Christian, but his works prove he WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN even by the loosest of meanings. HE WAS A LIAR. He lied about that so he’d get the backing of SOME HIGH-UP CHRISTIANS such as the pope etc. Why can you not see that . That is exactly the same thing Donald Trump does. The Christians backing Trump are proving themselves blind and ignorant as to what Trump is and has been his entire life—lawless. He’s just had the money to color the picture up with lawsuits and other legal maneuvers and consistently lying so much that even the smartest people have bought his song and dance. But they still are ignorant in that action. Trump is another Hitler-like person. It is said he has books and tapes at home that are all about Hitler and his ways of conning people by lying. It’s worked for Hitler, it’s working for Trump. But God hates Liars and unrepentant liars meet their reward sooner or later. It was said during his campaign that Putin had been schooling Trump for the Presidency since 2008. He likely was the one who gave him the Hitler studies and likely most are taped because Putin would be well aware Trump can’t read. I'm obviously not getting the point across clearly. Just because Hitler did horrific things does not make him an atheist. I don't know how to be any clearer. He said he was a Christian, he identified as a Christian. Yes, he wasn't very Christ like and I agree he was power hungry. But he did have the backing of other Christians even the archbishop of Germany. Were they all not Christians, even though they say they were? You insult atheists when someone you deem wasn't one of yours, even though they said they were, you then claim was an atheist. Why? Because only an atheist would do what Hitler did in your mind? That's completely not true, but I hear it often from theists. If one of theirs does something bad then they say he must be an atheist. You find it insulting when we claim religions are bad because of the inquisition etc. so why don't theists understand that it's insulting to claim a person that identifies as a Christian gets called an atheist when they do something bad? It's like theists think that only atheists can do something bad. Anyway, I guess this subject has been beaten to death and we should just let it be an 'agree to disagree' topic. True, atheist may not be correct word but you’re not getting what I’m saying either. His works prove he was a liar, he said he lied. So to believe he was Christian just isn’t believable due to his works and self-admitted lying. He was anti-God. Perhaps that’s a better word for it truly is much worse then most atheists I know. I meant no derogatory comment against atheists in general but you also have made derogatory comments about Christian’s behaviors as well. So we both seemed to have blanketed each classification by those who committed evil. Sorry!
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2019 17:49:10 GMT -5
I'm obviously not getting the point across clearly. Just because Hitler did horrific things does not make him an atheist. I don't know how to be any clearer. He said he was a Christian, he identified as a Christian. Yes, he wasn't very Christ like and I agree he was power hungry. But he did have the backing of other Christians even the archbishop of Germany. Were they all not Christians, even though they say they were? You insult atheists when someone you deem wasn't one of yours, even though they said they were, you then claim was an atheist. Why? Because only an atheist would do what Hitler did in your mind? That's completely not true, but I hear it often from theists. If one of theirs does something bad then they say he must be an atheist. You find it insulting when we claim religions are bad because of the inquisition etc. so why don't theists understand that it's insulting to claim a person that identifies as a Christian gets called an atheist when they do something bad? It's like theists think that only atheists can do something bad. Anyway, I guess this subject has been beaten to death and we should just let it be an 'agree to disagree' topic. True, atheist may not be correct word but you’re not getting what I’m saying either. His works prove he was a liar, he said he lied. So to believe he was Christian just isn’t believable due to his works and self-admitted lying. He was anti-God. Perhaps that’s a better word for it truly is much worse then most atheists I know. I meant no derogatory comment against atheists in general but you also have made derogatory comments about Christian’s behaviors as well. So we both seemed to have blanketed each classification by those who committed evil. Sorry! I agree he was a liar and a poor excuse for a human of any kind. You say he was anti God, which would never make him an atheist. We aren't anti God. We don't even think a God exists to be 'anti' about. I have acknowledged exactly that when I said atheists shouldn't lump all Christians into the same group as those who did horrific acts in the name of their religions. For me I see good and bad in both groups and it seems to rest more on the person than whether they believe in a God or not. We can be good without God and we can be horrific and call ourselves a theist. I do see how it's easy for some groups of theists to justify their acts (like the Hebrews did) by saying that they are doing it for God or God commanded them to do it. They use their belief in God to justify ugly acts. Atheists don't blame supreme being for their ugly acts. Doesn't make any difference of course. Ugly is ugly no matter what group we are a part of.
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Post by chuck on Nov 29, 2019 17:53:26 GMT -5
That made me howl! I can't have a meaningful discussion with my dad when throws down, "The Bible says..." Once the bible is quoted to provide their rational, the conversation is over. Since we don't believe in all the myths out there, why do they think we will believe the one they believe in? Just because they believe in it? They should understand 'not believing' because they have no problem not believing in any other Gods or sacred books. Well when it comes to their God and book, that exactly what it's like for us too. It sounds just as unbelievable to us as Allah and the Koran is unbelievable to Christians. None can prove their book is the right Book, nor their God is the Right God. Comeon be fair. In most debates I am bashed with the bible first. Not the other way around.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 29, 2019 23:05:26 GMT -5
What I am doing is telling you my thoughts about ideas from your source, -the bible, -which I also relied on as truthful information for more than half of my own life.
So, no, - it has nothing to do with my having "no inclination to find out what the original meaning of the mentioned verses may have meant to these people."
I was one of those "people."
And NO, - I have not "picked verses and words out of context" as you claim. Those verses were intact & NOT out of context and straight out of the bible.
I imagine that I have studied the bible as long as you have and as much as you have.
YOU may not believe there are different Christians, -but history tells a different story.
If what you claim were true, -there would not be the 1000's of different Christian churches the world over disagreeing on what the bible really means
People are disagreeing with one another right here on TMB, -just as you are doing right now. Yep so you are doing exactly what you are accusing me off. Which I dont think is a bad thing because it promotes critical thinking. I believe it still is truthful information but religion has fried your brain and put a horrible image of God in your head(not being disrespectful) which is sad and a lot of people have a lot to answer for, many are ignorant of the fact!. Religion has put this image in peoples head of God, Angels, Heaven, Hell, Devil in a way to control them. Like your verses about the eternal fire. That is actually referring to Ghenna, the town rubbish dump were the fires never go out. A place on earth. Jesus is more concerned about hell on earth but religion has turned this into eternal damnation and agonising fire, hot dripping lava ect ect. Yes that may happen but this is not what Jesus is talking about, he is saying, change your rubbish dump life! and stop affecting others with your crap life otherwise it will be like hell on earth for you. Yes that's my interpretation but go and look at the original language and see what hell was translated from in that passage. Yes I have studied the bible as well, but unless you look elsewhere its hard to find true meaning for a lot of it. Hebrew history, culture and language is a great place to start. Hardly encouraged by religion though. Much easier to tell you your going to be tourtered by eternal fire and worms if you dont do this this and this!, what a load of crap!. I know history tells a different story about Christians, I agree with you. Would you not agree that debate is better than no debate?, it leads to better things!. Its throughout history, the bible as well. Certainly debate is better than no debate. It should help in "critical thinking."
But it is no longer a "debate" when a person states something about someone else as if it were a fact.
You said as if it were fact: "Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon."
You have no idea what I believe nor where I got my info. Then when I quoted actual verses from the bible then you say that I was "taking them out of context."
PS; I do find it interesting to see someone who claims to be a Christian to refer to any part of the bible as "what a load of crap!"
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Post by snow on Nov 30, 2019 14:26:06 GMT -5
Once the bible is quoted to provide their rational, the conversation is over. Since we don't believe in all the myths out there, why do they think we will believe the one they believe in? Just because they believe in it? They should understand 'not believing' because they have no problem not believing in any other Gods or sacred books. Well when it comes to their God and book, that exactly what it's like for us too. It sounds just as unbelievable to us as Allah and the Koran is unbelievable to Christians. None can prove their book is the right Book, nor their God is the Right God. Comeon be fair. In most debates I am bashed with the bible first. Not the other way around. That's too bad. I agree, that's not fair. If theists don't bring up their belief in the bible, I don't either. I wish the two groups could be more find a way to be more respectful of each other. But my experience has been that theists tell me that their book is right and what it says is absolutely right and according to their book anyone who isn't a Christian is going to hell. Atheists get this a lot. Not just from Christians of course. Muslims are really bad for it and they also believe all Christians are going to hell.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 30, 2019 16:47:21 GMT -5
Once the bible is quoted to provide their rational, the conversation is over. Since we don't believe in all the myths out there, why do they think we will believe the one they believe in? Just because they believe in it? They should understand 'not believing' because they have no problem not believing in any other Gods or sacred books. Well when it comes to their God and book, that exactly what it's like for us too. It sounds just as unbelievable to us as Allah and the Koran is unbelievable to Christians. None can prove their book is the right Book, nor their God is the Right God. Comeon be fair. In most debates I am bashed with the bible first. Not the other way around. That is may be your perception, -that you are bashed with the bible first. But I think that if you look back to the past posts you will find a lot of Christians "bash" non-believers just as much as the other way around. BTW, -please excuse me for not using your name "Chuck," -but I have a son named Chuck and you two appear to be so different, that I just can't seem to refer to you by name.
I know that may sound a bit silly, -but there it is anyway.
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