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Post by rational on Dec 1, 2019 7:45:50 GMT -5
Having a meaningful discussion about something you dont believe in with the basis of your argument being from a source you dont believe in with only one concept of the said false source and not be willing to consider alternative evidence of the said false source is not a really compelling argument. The solution would be to present compelling evidence to support the claim that the bible ("false source") is true. This is always an issue. When the words in the bible say one thing but but new definitions are applied to the words to make them fit the situation it causes a disconnect. The classic is: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.It is clearly a local situation being discussed but Matthew twisted it into a prophecy. And it is considered a prophecy that actually predicted the birth of Jesus. But he was just given the wrong name. And it was a bad translation. Now the Catholic church has modified their translation and translated it as 'young woman' instead of 'virgin'. Not sure where that leaves the accuracy of the bible where Matthew is concerned...
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Post by mountain on Dec 1, 2019 8:40:16 GMT -5
Having a meaningful discussion about something you dont believe in with the basis of your argument being from a source you dont believe in with only one concept of the said false source and not be willing to consider alternative evidence of the said false source is not a really compelling argument. The solution would be to present compelling evidence to support the claim that the bible ("false source") is true. This is always an issue. When the words in the bible say one thing but but new definitions are applied to the words to make them fit the situation it causes a disconnect. The classic is: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.It is clearly a local situation being discussed but Matthew twisted it into a prophecy. And it is considered a prophecy that actually predicted the birth of Jesus. But he was just given the wrong name. And it was a bad translation. Now the Catholic church has modified their translation and translated it as 'young woman' instead of 'virgin'. Not sure where that leaves the accuracy of the bible where Matthew is concerned... Back in the day the terms 'young woman' and 'virgin' were largely synonymous. A young unmarried woman was generally considered to be a virgin.
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Post by chuck on Dec 1, 2019 23:12:52 GMT -5
The solution would be to present compelling evidence to support the claim that the bible ("false source") is true. This is always an issue. When the words in the bible say one thing but but new definitions are applied to the words to make them fit the situation it causes a disconnect. The classic is: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.It is clearly a local situation being discussed but Matthew twisted it into a prophecy. And it is considered a prophecy that actually predicted the birth of Jesus. But he was just given the wrong name. And it was a bad translation. Now the Catholic church has modified their translation and translated it as 'young woman' instead of 'virgin'. Not sure where that leaves the accuracy of the bible where Matthew is concerned... Back in the day the terms 'young woman' and 'virgin' were largely synonymous. A young unmarried woman was generally considered to be a virgin. Its hardly compelling to research something you don't believe or have been abused with so much you hatebit. Religion has twisted peoples minds so bad the easier option is to not believe because believing is a burden in one way or other to those who have been mentally abused and have become aware of the fact. Atheist are just as like to suffer from comformation bias just as much as those who believe in a God!. Isaiah 9:6-7 to me support Matthew. Would you agree? Explain further what you mean by wrong name and tranlsation? The Catholics have a great reputation, Id much rather Trust in Christ! (Not saying Catholics are bad people!)
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Post by chuck on Dec 1, 2019 23:23:21 GMT -5
Comeon be fair. In most debates I am bashed with the bible first. Not the other way around. That is may be your perception, -that you are bashed with the bible first. But I think that if you look back to the past posts you will find a lot of Christians "bash" non-believers just as much as the other way around. BTW, -please excuse me for not using your name "Chuck," -but I have a son named Chuck and you two appear to be so different, that I just can't seem to refer to you by name.
I know that may sound a bit silly, -but there it is anyway. Oh I agree. But personally I try not to use the bible as Authority because you do not believe it as Authority. I may not do a good job but I try. However I will refer to it if its been referred too. Haha thats ok no offense taken. I hope im not degrading your son's name?. Obviously it is not my real name.
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Post by chuck on Dec 1, 2019 23:45:07 GMT -5
Yep so you are doing exactly what you are accusing me off. Which I dont think is a bad thing because it promotes critical thinking. I believe it still is truthful information but religion has fried your brain and put a horrible image of God in your head(not being disrespectful) which is sad and a lot of people have a lot to answer for, many are ignorant of the fact!. Religion has put this image in peoples head of God, Angels, Heaven, Hell, Devil in a way to control them. Like your verses about the eternal fire. That is actually referring to Ghenna, the town rubbish dump were the fires never go out. A place on earth. Jesus is more concerned about hell on earth but religion has turned this into eternal damnation and agonising fire, hot dripping lava ect ect. Yes that may happen but this is not what Jesus is talking about, he is saying, change your rubbish dump life! and stop affecting others with your crap life otherwise it will be like hell on earth for you. Yes that's my interpretation but go and look at the original language and see what hell was translated from in that passage. Yes I have studied the bible as well, but unless you look elsewhere its hard to find true meaning for a lot of it. Hebrew history, culture and language is a great place to start. Hardly encouraged by religion though. Much easier to tell you your going to be tourtered by eternal fire and worms if you dont do this this and this!, what a load of crap!. I know history tells a different story about Christians, I agree with you. Would you not agree that debate is better than no debate?, it leads to better things!. Its throughout history, the bible as well. Certainly debate is better than no debate. It should help in "critical thinking."
But it is no longer a "debate" when a person states something about someone else as if it were a fact.
You said as if it were fact: "Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon."
You have no idea what I believe nor where I got my info. Then when I quoted actual verses from the bible then you say that I was "taking them out of context."
PS; I do find it interesting to see someone who claims to be a Christian to refer to any part of the bible as "what a load of crap!"
I did ask more than once I think, are you talking about hell?. Because some (not all) of the verses you quoted about eternal fire ect that refer to hell is not the eternal hell/Hades but the hell/Ghenna on earth. Religion has turned 4 types of hell into one type of Hell, Hell/Hades which is renaissance art. Are you going to tell me you knew this? or it is news to you? because if you knew this you would not have used certain verses in you argument which factually do not refer to Eternal Fire Hell/Hades were the soul is unrecoverable. That is why I said your vision of hell is renaissance art. It's a combination of all understandings of hell combined into one, Hell/Hades. This is religion!. No I did not refer to part of the bible as crap, but what religion has done to the bible is crap. For my reasons above, religion has managed to turn all types of hell into eternal damnation and a tool of fear and control when Hell has far meaning to our lives than that. When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality, but religion has twisted it to everything related to Hell is eternal punishment and a unrecoverable soul. That is crap!.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 2, 2019 0:40:42 GMT -5
Certainly debate is better than no debate. It should help in "critical thinking."
But it is no longer a "debate" when a person states something about someone else as if it were a fact.
You said as if it were fact: "Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon."
You have no idea what I believe nor where I got my info. Then when I quoted actual verses from the bible then you say that I was "taking them out of context."
PS; I do find it interesting to see someone who claims to be a Christian to refer to any part of the bible as "what a load of crap!"
I did ask more than once I think, are you talking about hell?. Because some (not all) of the verses you quoted about eternal fire ect that refer to hell is not the eternal hell/Hades but the hell/Ghenna on earth. Religion has turned 4 types of hell into one type of Hell, Hell/Hades which is renaissance art. Are you going to tell me you knew this? or it is news to you? because if you knew this you would not have used certain verses in you argument which factually do not refer to Eternal Fire Hell/Hades were the soul is unrecoverable. That is why I said your vision of hell is renaissance art. It's a combination of all understandings of hell combined into one, Hell/Hades. This is religion!. No I did not refer to part of the bible as crap, but what religion has done to the bible is crap. For my reasons above, religion has managed to turn all types of hell into eternal damnation and a tool of fear and control when Hell has far meaning to our lives than that. When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality, but religion has twisted it to everything related to Hell is eternal punishment and a unrecoverable soul. That is crap!. Since you are so full of questions for ME; let me ask YOU this.
Are you a Christian or NOT? Then if you are a Christian do you believe Jesus always spoke the truth and knew what he was talking about?
Now for all youR studies concerning what Jesus said or didn't say can you explain why Jesus said this and what Jesus meant by this verse Matt. 25:41?
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Then you can also give ME the verses where you claim this:
"When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality, PS: BTW, -Was Jesus still around when "renaissance art" was being painted?
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Post by rational on Dec 2, 2019 15:06:27 GMT -5
The solution would be to present compelling evidence to support the claim that the bible ("false source") is true. This is always an issue. When the words in the bible say one thing but but new definitions are applied to the words to make them fit the situation it causes a disconnect. The classic is: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.It is clearly a local situation being discussed but Matthew twisted it into a prophecy. And it is considered a prophecy that actually predicted the birth of Jesus. But he was just given the wrong name. And it was a bad translation. Now the Catholic church has modified their translation and translated it as 'young woman' instead of 'virgin'. Not sure where that leaves the accuracy of the bible where Matthew is concerned... Back in the day the terms 'young woman' and 'virgin' were largely synonymous. A young unmarried woman was generally considered to be a virgin. I thought it was interesting that the RCC went with the 'young woman' translation. If the terms 'young woman' and 'virgin' were largely synonymous why would the writer of Matthew choose one over the other? One would have been a normal situation (young woman pregnant out of wedlock) and the other a supernatural situation.
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Post by mountain on Dec 2, 2019 15:57:10 GMT -5
Back in the day the terms 'young woman' and 'virgin' were largely synonymous. A young unmarried woman was generally considered to be a virgin. I thought it was interesting that the RCC went with the 'young woman' translation. Perhaps standard usage of the time had a lot to do with it? However, I don't know. The 'tholics certainly believed that the young woman Mary was a virgin.
If the terms 'young woman' and 'virgin' were largely synonymous why would the writer of Matthew choose one over the other? One would have been a normal situation (young woman pregnant out of wedlock) and the other a supernatural situation. Perhaps to emphasise the point that it was a supernatural pregnancy, i.e. a virgin birth? To have used the term young woman, although 'largely' being synonymous with virgin, there is the probability that it would have been considered the young woman had lost her virginity out of wedlock and had become pregnancy by a human male, as up until that time all pregnancies had occurred through sexual intercourse.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2019 23:15:04 GMT -5
I did ask more than once I think, are you talking about hell?. Because some (not all) of the verses you quoted about eternal fire ect that refer to hell is not the eternal hell/Hades but the hell/Ghenna on earth. Religion has turned 4 types of hell into one type of Hell, Hell/Hades which is renaissance art. Are you going to tell me you knew this? or it is news to you? because if you knew this you would not have used certain verses in you argument which factually do not refer to Eternal Fire Hell/Hades were the soul is unrecoverable. That is why I said your vision of hell is renaissance art. It's a combination of all understandings of hell combined into one, Hell/Hades. This is religion!. No I did not refer to part of the bible as crap, but what religion has done to the bible is crap. For my reasons above, religion has managed to turn all types of hell into eternal damnation and a tool of fear and control when Hell has far meaning to our lives than that. When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality, but religion has twisted it to everything related to Hell is eternal punishment and a unrecoverable soul. That is crap!. Since you are so full of questions for ME; let me ask YOU this.
Are you a Christian or NOT?
Then if you are a Christian do you believe Jesus always spoke the truth and knew what he was talking about?
Now for all youR studies concerning what Jesus said or didn't say can you explain why Jesus said this and what Jesus meant by this verse Matt. 25:41?
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Then you can also give ME the verses where you claim this:
"When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality,
PS: BTW, -Was Jesus still around when "renaissance art" was being painted?
Since I haven't seen you answer, -did I miss seeing it?
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Post by chuck on Dec 6, 2019 22:21:04 GMT -5
I did ask more than once I think, are you talking about hell?. Because some (not all) of the verses you quoted about eternal fire ect that refer to hell is not the eternal hell/Hades but the hell/Ghenna on earth. Religion has turned 4 types of hell into one type of Hell, Hell/Hades which is renaissance art. Are you going to tell me you knew this? or it is news to you? because if you knew this you would not have used certain verses in you argument which factually do not refer to Eternal Fire Hell/Hades were the soul is unrecoverable. That is why I said your vision of hell is renaissance art. It's a combination of all understandings of hell combined into one, Hell/Hades. This is religion!. No I did not refer to part of the bible as crap, but what religion has done to the bible is crap. For my reasons above, religion has managed to turn all types of hell into eternal damnation and a tool of fear and control when Hell has far meaning to our lives than that. When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality, but religion has twisted it to everything related to Hell is eternal punishment and a unrecoverable soul. That is crap!. Since you are so full of questions for ME; let me ask YOU this.
Are you a Christian or NOT?
Then if you are a Christian do you believe Jesus always spoke the truth and knew what he was talking about?
Now for all youR studies concerning what Jesus said or didn't say can you explain why Jesus said this and what Jesus meant by this verse Matt. 25:41?
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Then you can also give ME the verses where you claim this:
"When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality,
PS: BTW, -Was Jesus still around when "renaissance art" was being painted?
Since I haven't seen you answer, -did I miss seeing it?
Yes I'm a Christian. Yes I believe Jesus spoke the truth. Matthew 25:41, Is a warning to those who are selfish/greedy are in danger of being destroyed. Now I will ask you. When Jesus was talking to these people did they think he was talking about the Hell you are thinking of? What do you think Hell is? I think more than 80% of the time Jesus talks of hell it is Gehenna. Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna...."Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him." No, renaissance art was like 1400's I think.
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Post by rational on Dec 7, 2019 16:26:39 GMT -5
I think more than 80% of the time Jesus talks of hell it is Gehenna. Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna...."Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him." Are you quibbling over the translation? γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.I think more like the 14th century instead of the 1400s.
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Post by chuck on Dec 7, 2019 23:02:55 GMT -5
I think more than 80% of the time Jesus talks of hell it is Gehenna. Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna...."Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him." Are you quibbling over the translation? γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.I think more like the 14th century instead of the 1400s. Ok I did say "I think", so I was 100 years out. The point being it was long after Jesus if you read the question I was answering if you want to quibble!. And yes I will quibble over translation because It seems Hell is just Hell to most around here. But when Jesus was talking about Gehenna do you think they looked at Gehenna like you look at Hell?. What do think it meant to these people?. What do you make of everlasting punishment since you highlighted it?.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 8, 2019 2:34:29 GMT -5
Since you are so full of questions for ME; let me ask YOU this.
Are you a Christian or NOT?
Then if you are a Christian do you believe Jesus always spoke the truth and knew what he was talking about?
Now for all youR studies concerning what Jesus said or didn't say can you explain why Jesus said this and what Jesus meant by this verse Matt. 25:41?
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Then you can also give ME the verses where you claim this:
"When Jesus used the word Hell the majority of the time he used/taught Hell on earth an more than anything else and how its applicable is our current reality,
PS: BTW, -Was Jesus still around when "renaissance art" was being painted?
Since I haven't seen you answer, -did I miss seeing it?
Yes I'm a Christian. Yes I believe Jesus spoke the truth. Matthew 25:41, Is a warning to those who are selfish/greedy are in danger of being destroyed. Now I will ask you. When Jesus was talking to these people did they think he was talking about the Hell you are thinking of? What do you think Hell is?
I think more than 80% of the time Jesus talks of hell it is Gehenna. Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna...."Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him." No, renaissance art was like 1400's I think. Then what do you think Jesus meant if HE did NOT mean "hell?"
Matt. 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2019 11:06:46 GMT -5
Are you quibbling over the translation? γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.I think more like the 14th century instead of the 1400s. Ok I did say "I think", so I was 100 years out. The point being it was long after Jesus if you read the question I was answering if you want to quibble!. And yes I will quibble over translation because It seems Hell is just Hell to most around here. But when Jesus was talking about Gehenna do you think they looked at Gehenna like you look at Hell?. What do think it meant to these people?. As people who know a lot more about the translation I must defer to: γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell. I take the text as given - never ending punishment. Personally I don't have a horse in this race since I have not seen a single fact that would point to anything after death except biological decay.
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Post by chuck on Dec 8, 2019 19:34:29 GMT -5
Ok I did say "I think", so I was 100 years out. The point being it was long after Jesus if you read the question I was answering if you want to quibble!. And yes I will quibble over translation because It seems Hell is just Hell to most around here. But when Jesus was talking about Gehenna do you think they looked at Gehenna like you look at Hell?. What do think it meant to these people?. As people who know a lot more about the translation I must defer to: γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell. I take the text as given - never ending punishment. Personally I don't have a horse in this race since I have not seen a single fact that would point to anything after death except biological decay. And what do you think eternal punishment is?. What do you think it meant to the Hebrew people?.
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Post by chuck on Dec 8, 2019 19:38:30 GMT -5
Yes I'm a Christian. Yes I believe Jesus spoke the truth. Matthew 25:41, Is a warning to those who are selfish/greedy are in danger of being destroyed. Now I will ask you. When Jesus was talking to these people did they think he was talking about the Hell you are thinking of? What do you think Hell is?
I think more than 80% of the time Jesus talks of hell it is Gehenna. Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna...."Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him." No, renaissance art was like 1400's I think. Then what do you think Jesus meant if HE did NOT mean "hell?"
Matt. 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
"Now I will ask you. When Jesus was talking to these people did they think he was talking about the Hell you are thinking of?"
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 8, 2019 20:05:43 GMT -5
Then what do you think Jesus meant if HE did NOT mean "hell?"
Matt. 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
"Now I will ask you. When Jesus was talking to these people did they think he was talking about the Hell you are thinking of?" Personally, I don't believe the bible to be the "word of any "god."
I understand that all these "stories" of gods are simply the result of different cultures trying understand the world that they live in and the stories differ in each of area.
But when someone like yourself, insists that only they can interpret any one particular story, -then I think that they really are full of hubris
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Post by chuck on Dec 8, 2019 23:13:38 GMT -5
"Now I will ask you. When Jesus was talking to these people did they think he was talking about the Hell you are thinking of?" Personally, I don't believe the bible to be the "word of any "god."
I understand that all these "stories" of gods are simply the result of different cultures trying understand the world that they live in and the stories differ in each of area.
But when someone like yourself, insists that only they can interpret any one particular story, -then I think that they really are full of hubris
The bible was written by man inspired by God, and its the good the bad and the ugly of man's nature. Christ was the final word of God. When did I insist I am the only one who can interpret?. Hubris because you don't like my interpretion?, Hubris because I have shown there is more than one way to look at Hell?, Hubris because this whole debate started from you thinking I believed in your image of Hell and me pointing out thats not how I see it?. Hubris because I have attempted to read it from a Hebrew understanding instead of just literally in the 21st century with a image created in the 14th century. I will ask again, what do you think these Hebrew people though when Jesus talked of Gehenna/Hell? Do you think its the Hell you have a image of? Its easy to describe another as Hubris when you refuse to interpret it yourself. What is the fall for me going to be?. Funnily enough the word has come about because of God's. You cannot get away from them!.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2019 0:28:29 GMT -5
Ok I did say "I think", so I was 100 years out. The point being it was long after Jesus if you read the question I was answering if you want to quibble!. And yes I will quibble over translation because It seems Hell is just Hell to most around here. But when Jesus was talking about Gehenna do you think they looked at Gehenna like you look at Hell?. What do think it meant to these people?. As people who know a lot more about the translation I must defer to: γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell. I take the text as given - never ending punishment. Personally I don't have a horse in this race since I have not seen a single fact that would point to anything after death except biological decay. It was the valley where the residents of Jerusalem dumped all their garbage. It was continuously on fire, consuming the trash as the residents deposited it there. Really nasty dead Jews could get thrown there instead of given a decent burial.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2019 0:48:37 GMT -5
Personally, I don't believe the bible to be the "word of any "god."
I understand that all these "stories" of gods are simply the result of different cultures trying understand the world that they live in and the stories differ in each of area.
But when someone like yourself, insists that only they can interpret any one particular story, -then I think that they really are full of hubris
The bible was written by man inspired by God, and its the good the bad and the ugly of man's nature. Christ was the final word of God. When did I insist I am the only one who can interpret?. Hubris because you don't like my interpretion?, Hubris because I have shown there is more than one way to look at Hell?, Hubris because this whole debate started from you thinking I believed in your image of Hell and me pointing out thats not how I see it?. Hubris because I have attempted to read it from a Hebrew understanding instead of just literally in the 21st century with a image created in the 14th century. I will ask again, what do you think these Hebrew people though when Jesus talked of Gehenna/Hell? Do you think its the Hell you have a image of? Its easy to describe another as Hubris when you refuse to interpret it yourself. What is the fall for me going to be?. Funnily enough the word has come about because of God's. You cannot get away from them!. It's OK to learn that how you see it isn't exactly the way it is. Or was. The word "Hell" is of Norse mythology origin, and because English is of the same language family they adopted that word for the Christian Bible. In the French Bible they use the word for "inferno". Dante can be credited with establishing the horrors of the traditional Christian concept of the inferno -- quite exaggerating the situation of the garbage pit in Jerusalem, but impressive enough to scare the "hell" out of unbelievers.
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Post by reborn on Dec 9, 2019 9:16:46 GMT -5
The bible was written by man inspired by God, and its the good the bad and the ugly of man's nature. Christ was the final word of God. When did I insist I am the only one who can interpret?. Hubris because you don't like my interpretion?, Hubris because I have shown there is more than one way to look at Hell?, Hubris because this whole debate started from you thinking I believed in your image of Hell and me pointing out thats not how I see it?. Hubris because I have attempted to read it from a Hebrew understanding instead of just literally in the 21st century with a image created in the 14th century. I will ask again, what do you think these Hebrew people though when Jesus talked of Gehenna/Hell? Do you think its the Hell you have a image of? Its easy to describe another as Hubris when you refuse to interpret it yourself. What is the fall for me going to be?. Funnily enough the word has come about because of God's. You cannot get away from them!. It's OK to learn that how you see it isn't exactly the way it is. Or was. The word "Hell" is of Norse mythology origin, and because English is of the same language family they adopted that word for the Christian Bible. In the French Bible they use the word for "inferno". Dante can be credited with establishing the horrors of the traditional Christian concept of the inferno -- quite exaggerating the situation of the garbage pit in Jerusalem, but impressive enough to scare the "hell" out of unbelievers. Jesus spoke a lot about hell, so it really behooves us to get a understanding from him about it! It applies to us all, whether we believe it or not.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2019 17:21:44 GMT -5
It's OK to learn that how you see it isn't exactly the way it is. Or was. The word "Hell" is of Norse mythology origin, and because English is of the same language family they adopted that word for the Christian Bible. In the French Bible they use the word for "inferno". Dante can be credited with establishing the horrors of the traditional Christian concept of the inferno -- quite exaggerating the situation of the garbage pit in Jerusalem, but impressive enough to scare the "hell" out of unbelievers. Jesus spoke a lot about hell, so it really behooves us to get a understanding from him about it! It applies to us all, whether we believe it or not. Yes, of course Jesus would speak a lot of hell. That is, in English it was translated to be "hell". But when Jesus was in Jerusalem, what the Bible translates as "hell", was THEN known to be "shoel", or "Gehenna" or "the grave" -- words that THEN referred to the city's dump/pit/valley and the grave. Jews did not even have souls to go to any place like hell. Christians had to invent such a place to justify their Pagan/Greek philosophy that humans had "souls" that outlast their physical lifetime and what happened to those who didn't qualify to join the gods in their realm. English translators of the Bible have peppered it with the word "hell", but the modern concept of "hell" is Norse paganism. norse-mythology.org/cosmology/the-nine-worlds/helheim/
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Post by reborn on Dec 9, 2019 17:34:44 GMT -5
Jesus spoke a lot about hell, so it really behooves us to get a understanding from him about it! It applies to us all, whether we believe it or not. Yes, of course Jesus would speak a lot of hell. That is, in English it was translated to be "hell". But when Jesus was in Jerusalem, what the Bible translates as "hell", was THEN known to be "shoel", or "Gehenna" or "the grave" -- words that THEN referred to the city's dump/pit/valley and the grave. Jews did not even have souls to go to any place like hell. Christians had to invent such a place to justify their Pagan/Greek philosophy that humans had "souls" that outlast their physical lifetime and what happened to those who didn't qualify to join the gods in their realm. English translators of the Bible have peppered it with the word "hell", but the modern concept of "hell" is Norse paganism. norse-mythology.org/cosmology/the-nine-worlds/helheim/Bob, while praying this morning, I asked god about hell. He told me that it is eternal punishment. I’m going to believe him on that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2019 17:37:04 GMT -5
Yes, of course Jesus would speak a lot of hell. That is, in English it was translated to be "hell". But when Jesus was in Jerusalem, what the Bible translates as "hell", was THEN known to be "shoel", or "Gehenna" or "the grave" -- words that THEN referred to the city's dump/pit/valley and the grave. Jews did not even have souls to go to any place like hell. Christians had to invent such a place to justify their Pagan/Greek philosophy that humans had "souls" that outlast their physical lifetime and what happened to those who didn't qualify to join the gods in their realm. English translators of the Bible have peppered it with the word "hell", but the modern concept of "hell" is Norse paganism. norse-mythology.org/cosmology/the-nine-worlds/helheim/Bob, while praying this morning, I asked god about hell. He told me that it is eternal punishment. I’m going to believe him on that. It will definitely help you cope.
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Post by reborn on Dec 9, 2019 17:43:20 GMT -5
Bob, while praying this morning, I asked god about hell. He told me that it is eternal punishment. I’m going to believe him on that. It will definitely help you cope. Revelation is a stabilizer. Keeps on rightly balanced. I love that about truth!
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 9, 2019 17:52:27 GMT -5
It will definitely help you cope. Revelation is a stabilizer. Keeps one rightly balanced. I love that about truth! Coping doesn't mean "rightly balanced" -- it simply means "balanced". Balance is not proof of the truth of the matter. When you need to be kept in balance it means there is some reality that is being compensated for.
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Post by reborn on Dec 9, 2019 17:54:10 GMT -5
Revelation is a stabilizer. Keeps one rightly balanced. I love that about truth! Coping doesn't mean "rightly balanced" -- it simply means "balanced". Balance is not proof of the truth of the matter. When you need to be kept in balance it means there is some reality that is being compensated for. yes, human flesh needs to be rightly balanced to have understanding. Thankful that God will/ can do that for a individual
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 10, 2019 1:41:38 GMT -5
Personally, I don't believe the bible to be the "word of any "god."
I understand that all these "stories" of gods are simply the result of different cultures trying understand the world that they live in and the stories differ in each of area.
But when someone like yourself, insists that only they can interpret any one particular story, -then I think that they really are full of hubris
The bible was written by man inspired by God, and its the good the bad and the ugly of man's nature. Christ was the final word of God. When did I insist I am the only one who can interpret?. Hubris because you don't like my interpretion? Hubris because I have shown there is more than one way to look at Hell?, Hubris because this whole debate started from you thinking I believed in your image of Hell and me pointing out thats not how I see it?. Hubris because I have attempted to read it from a Hebrew understanding instead of just literally in the 21st century with a image created in the 14th century. I will ask again, what do you think these Hebrew people though when Jesus talked of Gehenna/Hell? Do you think its the Hell you have a image of? Its easy to describe another as Hubris when you refuse to interpret it yourself. What is the fall for me going to be?. Funnily enough the word has come about because of God's. You cannot get away from them!. Sorry I'm so slow in answering, Here is the "hubris" I am talking about:
You just stated out of the blue as if it were a fact: "Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon."
You don't even KNOW me!
You didn't KNOW what I believe So, YES, it IS "hubris" for you to think YOU knew what I belive!
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