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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:18:07 GMT -5
He is known to have stated that he was killing the Jews because they killed his savior. So he definitely felt affiliated with the Christian faith and the Christian God. He may have been misguided, but it's not honest to say he never thought of himself as a Christian. He even had the backing of the Archbishop of Germany and the Pope in power then. Were they not 'true Christians' either? They certainly believed they were. The Pope that ordered the Inquisition, the Crusades, certainly thought he was a Christian and doing what they were doing for their God. I guess he/they just forgot to love his neighbor as him self in those years. He didn't even see the Jews as human Chuck. How could he define them as a neighbor with that mindset? Again, he believed in a God and by that definition he cannot be labelled an atheist. And don't forget all those who were in the extermination camps. They also thought they were Christians and doing Gods work getting rid of the Jews. The Jews have been persecuted for a very long time. It's only since the Holocaust that the world finally woke up and started to realize just how horrifically the Jews have been treated since the death of your Christ. Hitler and his followers attitude toward the Jews was not out of the norm for how Christians treated Jews for centuries. It was the final act that did start to change that though.
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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:18:47 GMT -5
I guess he/they just forgot to love his neighbor as him self in those years. Evidence that the Holy Spirit wasn’t involved in his decisions. But not evidence he was a non believer.
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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:24:26 GMT -5
Snow is right, -you can't just decide who were "True Christians" and who weren't "True Christians!" Mainly because the whole idea of Christianity is been built on dividing people into groups.
It is the idea that some people are bad & others are good and the reason they are that way is because they either have the "spirit" of god in them or they don't. That idea exists because of a need for many people to believe that there is a something or someone pulling the strings; -that there is a "reason" that things happen. It supplies them with a sense of security much like Voltaire's Candide.
Atheists also are into dividing people. Really? How so? It seems to me that all atheists are just one thing, non believers. But theists are the ones that can't even agree with other theists about which God is right, or if they believe in the same God, they can't even agree which doctrine they follow is right. That is far more divisive. I don't have to shun someone just because they are a believer like some theists have to do. I can accept everyone. I am more like most everyone than I am different. I see the commonality of mankind. I just don't believe there is a God, and that labels me as an atheist. But how does that divide or cause division?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 14:40:34 GMT -5
Hatred of the Jews did not begin with Hitler. It has been around for a long, long time.
Deicide is the killing of a god Accusations of the killing of Jesus: Jewish deicide
In the context of Christianity, deicide refers to the responsibility for the death of Jesus. The accusation of Jews in deicide has been the most powerful warrant for antisemitism by Christians.
The earliest recorded instance of an accusation of deicide against the Jewish people as a whole – that they were collectively responsible for the death of Jesus – occurs in a sermon of 167 CE attributed to Melito of Sardis entitled Peri Pascha, On the Passover.
This text blames the Jews for allowing King Herod and Caiaphas to execute Jesus. Melito does not attribute particular blame to Pontius Pilate, mentioning only that Pilate washed his hands of guilt.
The sermon is written in Greek, but may have been an appeal to Rome to spare Christians at a time when Christians were widely persecuted.[citation needed] The Latin word deicida (slayer of god), from which the word deicide is derived, was used in the 4th century by Peter Chrystologus in his sermon number 172.
Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, once held Jews to be collectively responsible for killing Jesus.
According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus' death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time had committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 18:31:15 GMT -5
Atheists also are into dividing people. Really? How so? It seems to me that all atheists are just one thing, non believers. But theists are the ones that can't even agree with other theists about which God is right, or if they believe in the same God, they can't even agree which doctrine they follow is right. That is far more divisive. I don't have to shun someone just because they are a believer like some theists have to do. I can accept everyone. I am more like most everyone than I am different. I see the commonality of mankind. I just don't believe there is a God, and that labels me as an atheist. But how does that divide or cause division? I was bit over covering, I should have said some atheists are into dividing. Atheists this or that in comparison to non atheists
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Post by Annan on Nov 27, 2019 18:32:16 GMT -5
Hitler was a bad example of a Christian, but he did believe in the Christian God. The sole definition of an atheist is they don't believe in any gods. So by that definition Hitler and his followers could never be atheists. They believed even though they weren't a good example of a believer. See the difference? I wouldn't call Hitler an Atheist, but I find it hard to believe that Hitler BELIEVED in the Christian God. God was his excuse to commit atrocities. Just like the KKK.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 18:37:18 GMT -5
Hatred of the Jews did not begin with Hitler. It has been around for a long, long time.Deicide is the killing of a god Accusations of the killing of Jesus: Jewish deicide
In the context of Christianity, deicide refers to the responsibility for the death of Jesus. The accusation of Jews in deicide has been the most powerful warrant for antisemitism by Christians.
The earliest recorded instance of an accusation of deicide against the Jewish people as a whole – that they were collectively responsible for the death of Jesus – occurs in a sermon of 167 CE attributed to Melito of Sardis entitled Peri Pascha, On the Passover.
This text blames the Jews for allowing King Herod and Caiaphas to execute Jesus. Melito does not attribute particular blame to Pontius Pilate, mentioning only that Pilate washed his hands of guilt.
The sermon is written in Greek, but may have been an appeal to Rome to spare Christians at a time when Christians were widely persecuted.[citation needed] The Latin word deicida (slayer of god), from which the word deicide is derived, was used in the 4th century by Peter Chrystologus in his sermon number 172.
Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, once held Jews to be collectively responsible for killing Jesus.
According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus' death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time had committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. But Jesus had sure there were swords in his presence so that he would be numbered with the transgressors. It was as prophesied, clear until he was taken off the cross and buried in the tomb . And continued thereafter. Sure the Jews were involved but they shouldn’t be hated for it. The Christians especially need to thank the Jews for their part in making salvation open to the Gentiles. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. Any Christian hating or looking down in the Hews certainly have no idea about Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. But that’s not saying Christian need to becomeJews, but to respect them in their nation as they are Gods people and always will be.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 18:51:30 GMT -5
Hatred of the Jews did not begin with Hitler. It has been around for a long, long time.Deicide is the killing of a god Accusations of the killing of Jesus: Jewish deicide
In the context of Christianity, deicide refers to the responsibility for the death of Jesus. The accusation of Jews in deicide has been the most powerful warrant for antisemitism by Christians.
The earliest recorded instance of an accusation of deicide against the Jewish people as a whole – that they were collectively responsible for the death of Jesus – occurs in a sermon of 167 CE attributed to Melito of Sardis entitled Peri Pascha, On the Passover.
This text blames the Jews for allowing King Herod and Caiaphas to execute Jesus. Melito does not attribute particular blame to Pontius Pilate, mentioning only that Pilate washed his hands of guilt.
The sermon is written in Greek, but may have been an appeal to Rome to spare Christians at a time when Christians were widely persecuted.[citation needed] The Latin word deicida (slayer of god), from which the word deicide is derived, was used in the 4th century by Peter Chrystologus in his sermon number 172.
Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, once held Jews to be collectively responsible for killing Jesus.
According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus' death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time had committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. But Jesus had sure there were swords in his presence so that he would be numbered with the transgressors. It was as prophesied, clear until he was taken off the cross and buried in the tomb . And continued thereafter. Sure the Jews were involved but they shouldn’t be hated for it. The Christians especially need to thank the Jews for their part in making salvation open to the Gentiles. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. Any Christian hating or looking down in the Hews certainly have no idea about Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. But that’s not saying Christian need to becomeJews, but to respect them in their nation as they are Gods people and always will be. It doesn't much matter what should have been, -that is the history of what did happen and why it happened. Christians have believed that and acted on it for a long, long time.
It's roots were there long before Hitler came along.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 19:15:57 GMT -5
But Jesus had sure there were swords in his presence so that he would be numbered with the transgressors. It was as prophesied, clear until he was taken off the cross and buried in the tomb . And continued thereafter. Sure the Jews were involved but they shouldn’t be hated for it. The Christians especially need to thank the Jews for their part in making salvation open to the Gentiles. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. Any Christian hating or looking down in the Hews certainly have no idea about Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. But that’s not saying Christian need to becomeJews, but to respect them in their nation as they are Gods people and always will be. It doesn't much matter what should have been, -that is the history of what did happen and why it happened. Christians have believed that and acted on it for a long, long time.
It's roots were there long before Hitler came along.But not all Christians hate or vilify the Jews. Nor should they. What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 19:17:44 GMT -5
Hitler was a bad example of a Christian, but he did believe in the Christian God. The sole definition of an atheist is they don't believe in any gods. So by that definition Hitler and his followers could never be atheists. They believed even though they weren't a good example of a believer. See the difference? I wouldn't call Hitler an Atheist, but I find it hard to believe that Hitler BELIEVED in the Christian God. God was his excuse to commit atrocities. Just like the KKK. I agree, Annan. Hitler was no more Christian then the swastika is. His head and heart were full of the devil’s meanness.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 19:20:08 GMT -5
Evidence that the Holy Spirit wasn’t involved in his decisions. But not evidence he was a non believer. People are not true believers if there is no indwelling Spirit. Hitler was not a Christian. He was a liar. He admitted he was a liar by saying if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. He’s got you believing he was a Christian. He WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 19:22:11 GMT -5
Evidence that the Holy Spirit wasn’t involved in his decisions. But not evidence he was a non believer. People are not true believers if there is no indwelling Spirit. Hitler was not a Christian. He was a liar. He admitted he was a liar by saying if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. He’s got you believing he was a Christian. He WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 19:25:11 GMT -5
Snow, it seems it comes down to this: there are True Christians with the indwelling Spirit and there are so-professed Christians that have no idea really what that means. Likewise as I showed you; there are Atgeists like Hitler who use God for their nefarious advantage but could care less about the disparagement their behaviors leave in God’s name. Whereas there are atheists so-professed by themselves who lived decent moral lives not seeking to disparage God’s name; simply they just don’t believe there is a God. See the differences? I already answered this in your above post's answer. Hitler was a bad example of a Christian, but he did believe in the Christian God. The sole definition of an atheist is they don't believe in any gods. So by that definition Hitler and his followers could never be atheists. They believed even though they weren't a good example of a believer. See the difference? I know your difference, Snow. But I don’t believe Hitler believed there was a God either because he didn’t care what he did in the name of God. Hitler was a liar, a deceiver admittedly so. A deceiver is one who knows the truth but chooses to not tell it but for his own purposes tells a lie. Satan’s own child.
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Post by chuck on Nov 27, 2019 23:40:48 GMT -5
No I never said that. God doesnt work like that. Why do you think he does?. Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon. I do believe some people will be sent to the hell you picture but it is hardly mentioned in the bible as is called Hades. No, -My "picture of hell has (NOT) come from renaissance art!" No, I do NOT "think he's (god) like the angel/devil on your (my) shoulder in a Disney cartoon--"
I had thought that we were discussing the bible, -not "renaissance art nor Disney cartoons." I was talking about what is states in the bible not just something that I "picture."
Aren't you are talking about the "bible?" What do you mean, "God doesn't work like that? "
You ask me: "Why do you think he does?"
Well, Here's why:
Math:25 41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 9:48
"...where 'their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.'
Luke 16:24
"So he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire."
PS: As for "hades," -it is a greek term and not mentioned in my bible at all.
Your quote, "because you apparently believe that anyone cannot act in a caring manner towards their fellowmen/women/children without a supernatural being telling them to do so; -otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" No I do not believe that. That's renaissance art. The reason I say this is you believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades. It is not, Jesus is talking about Ghenna, a place on earth. So Jesus is talking about present reality, not when you die. Hell on earth. Matthew 25:41, I believe the following 2 verses show the true picture, not your picture derived from renaissance art. Luke 16:24, I believe this is the only time Jesus said someone was going to the Hades/Hell you have pictured in your mind. Both Matthew and Luke were refering to greed as a way of life will send you to hell. And in Luke 16:27'28 this is confirmed. He knew what he'd done wrong. Anyone can act in a caring manner and it does not require God to be in your ear. People act in a caring manner for all kinds of reasons. But the reason God is looking for is it's a way of life. As for your bible, I assume your are not being sarcastic, but I would have thought you would have at least looked at what Hell actually meant as was translated from, and the meaning to these people. Jesus talked about hell on earth a lot more than the hell after you die. And by my understanding there are types of hell so to speak. Hell/Hades, Hell/outside God's Kingdom, Hell/Grave, Hell/Ghenna But thanks to renaissance art and Catholicism people just think of hell is this eternal fire in hot dripping lava. They have grouped 4 different translations/places of Hell into one the meaning Hades/Hell. It has been done for control.
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Post by chuck on Nov 28, 2019 0:36:32 GMT -5
I guess he/they just forgot to love his neighbor as him self in those years. He didn't even see the Jews as human Chuck. How could he define them as a neighbor with that mindset? Again, he believed in a God and by that definition he cannot be labelled an atheist. And don't forget all those who were in the extermination camps. They also thought they were Christians and doing Gods work getting rid of the Jews. The Jews have been persecuted for a very long time. It's only since the Holocaust that the world finally woke up and started to realize just how horrifically the Jews have been treated since the death of your Christ. Hitler and his followers attitude toward the Jews was not out of the norm for how Christians treated Jews for centuries. It was the final act that did start to change that though. I know he didn't and that's my point. He hated them but that was not his only reason for war, it was a opportunity for him in his quest for more power. He was his own god but used God to futher his agenda. Hitler had been indoctrinated with antisemitism, and the same goes for those in camps thinking they were doing Gods work or they were forced to by fear. God saw what was happening to the jews when he told them to destroy their enemies. They were like cancer, spreading through out them. God saw it long before we did, long before Christ. Yes you are right he cannot be labled a atheist. I apologize. I guess my line of thinking is those who do not believe in God/Gods are playing god themselves. Just like those who killed millions of lives, I think they were playing God. Personal opinion.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 28, 2019 1:36:24 GMT -5
No, -My "picture of hell has (NOT) come from renaissance art!" No, I do NOT "think he's (god) like the angel/devil on your (my) shoulder in a Disney cartoon--"
I had thought that we were discussing the bible, -not "renaissance art nor Disney cartoons." I was talking about what is states in the bible not just something that I "picture."
Aren't you are talking about the "bible?" What do you mean, "God doesn't work like that? "
You ask me: "Why do you think he does?"
Well, Here's why:
Math:25 41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 9:48
"...where 'their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.'
Luke 16:24
"So he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire."
PS: As for "hades," -it is a greek term and not mentioned in my bible at all.
Your quote, "because you apparently believe that anyone cannot act in a caring manner towards their fellowmen/women/children without a supernatural being telling them to do so; -otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" No I do not believe that. That's renaissance art . The reason I say this is you believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades It is not, Jesus is talking about Ghenna, a place on earth. So Jesus is talking about present reality, not when you die. Hell on earth. Matthew 25:41, I believe the following 2 verses show the true picture, not your picture derived from renaissance art. Luke 16:24, I believe this is the only time Jesus said someone was going to the Hades/Hell you have pictured in your mind. Both Matthew and Luke were refering to greed as a way of life will send you to hell. And in Luke 16:27'28 this is confirmed. He knew what he'd done wrong. Anyone can act in a caring manner and it does not require God to be in your ear. People act in a caring manner for all kinds of reasons. But the reason God is looking for is it's a way of life. As for your bible, I assume your are not being sarcastic, but I would have thought you would have at least looked at what Hell actually meant as was translated from, and the meaning to these people. Jesus talked about hell on earth a lot more than the hell after you die. And by my understanding there are types of hell so to speak. Hell/Hades, Hell/outside God's Kingdom, Hell/Grave, Hell/Ghenna But thanks to renaissance art and Catholicism people just think of hell is this eternal fire in hot dripping lava. They have grouped 4 different translations/places of Hell into one the meaning Hades/Hell. It has been done for control. I did NOT say anything at all to cause you to think that I "believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades.
You were the one that bought the term "Hades" into the picture! I said the term "Hades" wasn't even in my bible!
Please reread what I actually SAID!
Why have you decided what Jesus meant Hades when he said "eternal fire ?" Why would Jesus a Jew, use a Hades, a Greek myth, -describe what he was talking about?
Hades in the ancient Greek religion and myth, is the god of the dead and the king of the underworld, with which his name became synonymous. Hades was the eldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father. He and his brothers, Zeus and Poseidon, defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. Hades received the underworld, Zeus the sky, and Poseidon the sea, with the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, available to all three concurrently Hades was often portrayed with his three-headed guard dog Cerberus.
PS: Please quote me accurately.
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Post by chuck on Nov 28, 2019 1:51:21 GMT -5
Your quote, "because you apparently believe that anyone cannot act in a caring manner towards their fellowmen/women/children without a supernatural being telling them to do so; -otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" No I do not believe that. That's renaissance art . The reason I say this is you believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades It is not, Jesus is talking about Ghenna, a place on earth. So Jesus is talking about present reality, not when you die. Hell on earth. Matthew 25:41, I believe the following 2 verses show the true picture, not your picture derived from renaissance art. Luke 16:24, I believe this is the only time Jesus said someone was going to the Hades/Hell you have pictured in your mind. Both Matthew and Luke were refering to greed as a way of life will send you to hell. And in Luke 16:27'28 this is confirmed. He knew what he'd done wrong. Anyone can act in a caring manner and it does not require God to be in your ear. People act in a caring manner for all kinds of reasons. But the reason God is looking for is it's a way of life. As for your bible, I assume your are not being sarcastic, but I would have thought you would have at least looked at what Hell actually meant as was translated from, and the meaning to these people. Jesus talked about hell on earth a lot more than the hell after you die. And by my understanding there are types of hell so to speak. Hell/Hades, Hell/outside God's Kingdom, Hell/Grave, Hell/Ghenna But thanks to renaissance art and Catholicism people just think of hell is this eternal fire in hot dripping lava. They have grouped 4 different translations/places of Hell into one the meaning Hades/Hell. It has been done for control. I did NOT say anything at all to cause you to think that I "believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades.
You were the one that bought the term "Hades" into the picture! I said the term "Hades" wasn't even in my bible!
Please reread what I actually SAID!
Why have you decided what Jesus meant Hades when he said "eternal fire ?" Why would Jesus a Jew, use a Hades, a Greek myth, -describe what he was talking about?
Hades in the ancient Greek religion and myth, is the god of the dead and the king of the underworld, with which his name became synonymous. Hades was the eldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father. He and his brothers, Zeus and Poseidon, defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. Hades received the underworld, Zeus the sky, and Poseidon the sea, with the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, available to all three concurrently Hades was often portrayed with his three-headed guard dog Cerberus.
PS: Please quote me accurately.
"-otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" Is this hell you are referring to?.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2019 12:04:27 GMT -5
Hitler was a bad example of a Christian, but he did believe in the Christian God. The sole definition of an atheist is they don't believe in any gods. So by that definition Hitler and his followers could never be atheists. They believed even though they weren't a good example of a believer. See the difference? I wouldn't call Hitler an Atheist, but I find it hard to believe that Hitler BELIEVED in the Christian God. God was his excuse to commit atrocities. Just like the KKK. All we can go by is what he himself said. He said he believed in the Christian God. He had the blessing of the archbishop of Germany for what he was doing and he clearly stated that he was doing it because the Jews killed his savior. We need to remember that Christians persecuted the Jews for most of their history after the death of Jesus. They were segregated and persecuted. So what Hitler did wasn't all that off the wall. He definitely took it farther than it had been taken before, but it was still the mindset. I think what Hitler did finally woke up the world to just how persecuted the Jews were and had been for a very long time. But he also was power hungry and crazy like many in history that are responsible for genocides. That doesn't make them atheists, it makes them fanatics in whatever religion or non religion they follow.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2019 12:05:37 GMT -5
Hatred of the Jews did not begin with Hitler. It has been around for a long, long time.Deicide is the killing of a god Accusations of the killing of Jesus: Jewish deicide
In the context of Christianity, deicide refers to the responsibility for the death of Jesus. The accusation of Jews in deicide has been the most powerful warrant for antisemitism by Christians.
The earliest recorded instance of an accusation of deicide against the Jewish people as a whole – that they were collectively responsible for the death of Jesus – occurs in a sermon of 167 CE attributed to Melito of Sardis entitled Peri Pascha, On the Passover.
This text blames the Jews for allowing King Herod and Caiaphas to execute Jesus. Melito does not attribute particular blame to Pontius Pilate, mentioning only that Pilate washed his hands of guilt.
The sermon is written in Greek, but may have been an appeal to Rome to spare Christians at a time when Christians were widely persecuted.[citation needed] The Latin word deicida (slayer of god), from which the word deicide is derived, was used in the 4th century by Peter Chrystologus in his sermon number 172.
Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, once held Jews to be collectively responsible for killing Jesus.
According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus' death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time had committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. But Jesus had sure there were swords in his presence so that he would be numbered with the transgressors. It was as prophesied, clear until he was taken off the cross and buried in the tomb . And continued thereafter. Sure the Jews were involved but they shouldn’t be hated for it. The Christians especially need to thank the Jews for their part in making salvation open to the Gentiles. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. Any Christian hating or looking down in the Hews certainly have no idea about Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. But that’s not saying Christian need to becomeJews, but to respect them in their nation as they are Gods people and always will be. You have Paul, not the apostles to thank for making Christianity available to the Gentiles.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2019 12:07:17 GMT -5
It doesn't much matter what should have been, -that is the history of what did happen and why it happened. Christians have believed that and acted on it for a long, long time.
It's roots were there long before Hitler came along. But not all Christians hate or vilify the Jews. Nor should they. What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong. Then why do you hold what some atheists did against them still. Why do you say Hitler was an atheist? He was a theist, albeit a poor one, and he's dead and gone.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2019 12:12:05 GMT -5
I already answered this in your above post's answer. Hitler was a bad example of a Christian, but he did believe in the Christian God. The sole definition of an atheist is they don't believe in any gods. So by that definition Hitler and his followers could never be atheists. They believed even though they weren't a good example of a believer. See the difference? I know your difference, Snow. But I don’t believe Hitler believed there was a God either because he didn’t care what he did in the name of God. Hitler was a liar, a deceiver admittedly so. A deceiver is one who knows the truth but chooses to not tell it but for his own purposes tells a lie. Satan’s own child. So the pope and all the people that were part of the inquisition weren't Christians either? Look at all the things religious people have done in the name of their Gods. They think they are doing it for their God so obviously they are believers.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2019 12:15:02 GMT -5
He didn't even see the Jews as human Chuck. How could he define them as a neighbor with that mindset? Again, he believed in a God and by that definition he cannot be labelled an atheist. And don't forget all those who were in the extermination camps. They also thought they were Christians and doing Gods work getting rid of the Jews. The Jews have been persecuted for a very long time. It's only since the Holocaust that the world finally woke up and started to realize just how horrifically the Jews have been treated since the death of your Christ. Hitler and his followers attitude toward the Jews was not out of the norm for how Christians treated Jews for centuries. It was the final act that did start to change that though. I know he didn't and that's my point. He hated them but that was not his only reason for war, it was a opportunity for him in his quest for more power. He was his own god but used God to futher his agenda. Hitler had been indoctrinated with antisemitism, and the same goes for those in camps thinking they were doing Gods work or they were forced to by fear. God saw what was happening to the jews when he told them to destroy their enemies. They were like cancer, spreading through out them. God saw it long before we did, long before Christ. Yes you are right he cannot be labled a atheist. I apologize. I guess my line of thinking is those who do not believe in God/Gods are playing god themselves. Just like those who killed millions of lives, I think they were playing God. Personal opinion. I totally agree he was using his belief in God as a way to justify what he did and to get more power. But we can't say he was an atheist or by that way of thinking the Pope and all the people that were part of the inquisition were also atheists, and I really don't think anyone could claim that. They were believers that justified violence, stealing people's estates for their God. I see religion at the top as all about power. The people are usually decent but the ones they follow aren't. Not all of course.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 28, 2019 14:39:11 GMT -5
I did NOT say anything at all to cause you to think that I "believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades.
You were the one that bought the term "Hades" into the picture! I said the term "Hades" wasn't even in my bible!
Please reread what I actually SAID!
Why have you decided what Jesus meant Hades when he said "eternal fire ?" Why would Jesus a Jew, use a Hades, a Greek myth, -describe what he was talking about?
Hades in the ancient Greek religion and myth, is the god of the dead and the king of the underworld, with which his name became synonymous. Hades was the eldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father. He and his brothers, Zeus and Poseidon, defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. Hades received the underworld, Zeus the sky, and Poseidon the sea, with the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, available to all three concurrently Hades was often portrayed with his three-headed guard dog Cerberus.
PS: Please quote me accurately.
"-otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" Is this hell you are referring to?. I did NOT say anything at all to cause you to think that I "believe the pit of ever lasting fire in Mark 9:48 is Hades.
You were the one that bought the term "Hades" into the picture! I said the term "Hades" wasn't even in my bible!
Please reread what I actually SAID!
Why have you decided what Jesus meant Hades when he said "eternal fire ?" Why would Jesus a Jew, use a Hades, a Greek myth, -describe what he was talking about?
Hades in the ancient Greek religion and myth, is the god of the dead and the king of the underworld, with which his name became synonymous. Hades was the eldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father. He and his brothers, Zeus and Poseidon, defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. Hades received the underworld, Zeus the sky, and Poseidon the sea, with the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, available to all three concurrently Hades was often portrayed with his three-headed guard dog Cerberus.
PS: Please quote me accurately.
"-otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?" Is this hell you are referring to?. I am quoting what the bible states, -you know, the "bible", -that book which YOU believe is the "Word of God" But I am an atheist, -that means I am one who doesn't believe the existence of a supreme being or beings.
So therefore, -since I do not believe in your god, -I do not believe that HE will send me or you or anyone else to a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity."
So remember I am only quoting the book that YOU are suppose to believe.
Now, what I DO see all the time is that different Christians will decide what certain passages in that 'Word of God' mean according to what THEY want to believe!
Just as YOU have done!
That is why that there a thousands of different denominations of Christianity and why they argue & have even come to the point of fighting each one another.
Have a nice thanksgiving day!
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2019 15:42:14 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 28, 2019 17:28:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't call Hitler an Atheist, but I find it hard to believe that Hitler BELIEVED in the Christian God. God was his excuse to commit atrocities. Just like the KKK. All we can go by is what he himself said. He said he believed in the Christian God. He had the blessing of the archbishop of Germany for what he was doing and he clearly stated that he was doing it because the Jews killed his savior. We need to remember that Christians persecuted the Jews for most of their history after the death of Jesus. They were segregated and persecuted. So what Hitler did wasn't all that off the wall. He definitely took it farther than it had been taken before, but it was still the mindset. I think what Hitler did finally woke up the world to just how persecuted the Jews were and had been for a very long time. But he also was power hungry and crazy like many in history that are responsible for genocides. That doesn't make them atheists, it makes them fanatics in whatever religion or non religion they follow. Sad part, they swallowed his lies just like we see rational or supposedly rational people swallow Trump’s lies.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 28, 2019 17:31:59 GMT -5
IMO, they are not knowledgeable Christians. For Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. He will return to Jerusalem to reign his millennial reign. So either they are plumb ignorant or they aren’t real Christians.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 28, 2019 18:05:38 GMT -5
But not all Christians hate or vilify the Jews. Nor should they. What happened, happened and there’s no changing it. And besides any from that time are dead and gone for many many years. It’s wrong to hold anything over them. Just plain sinfully wrong. Then why do you hold what some atheists did against them still. Why do you say Hitler was an atheist? He was a theist, albeit a poor one, and he's dead and gone. I’m not sure of what you’re referring to.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 28, 2019 18:06:56 GMT -5
Evidence that the Holy Spirit wasn’t involved in his decisions. But not evidence he was a non believer. True believers have the witness within. I John 5:10
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