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Post by speak on Jan 2, 2019 19:58:18 GMT -5
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
- Carl Sagan i'll bet hes not saying that now....
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 2, 2019 20:43:08 GMT -5
i'll bet hes not saying that now.... Neither one of you know that but of course you both have to gloat over your idea that Carl Sagan is frying in hell.
Way to go ! Keep the good work!
He was far more humble than either of you by admitting HE doesn't know everything.
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Post by matisse on Jan 2, 2019 20:44:47 GMT -5
i'll bet hes not saying that now.... ** He is like the rich man/unbeliever in Luke 16 wanting to get out of Hades to warn others about this horrible place but can't do it. We the rich man suffered in much pains and want Lazarus come over to give him some cool water to ease his sufferings. The rich man has NOT faced the judgement Day= Lake of Fire, yet. Christians sure have sick fantasies about people who don't believe like they do!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 2, 2019 21:11:33 GMT -5
In essence, jani, -you have just given the reason why so people would rather deny reality and keep on believing something. It is because their beliefs are based on how good it makes them feel, -"love, peace, joy, contentment and hope."
Understandable, -but as a non-believer, - I came to the place where I realized that it was just an emotional reason that I was believing something that was really UNBELIEVABLE!
I had to face the fact it was just a facade. Sure it hurt for awhile to get rid of it.
Just like having surgery to get rid of my "appendix" -a left over appendage from humankind's earlier ages but was of no use what-so-ever today.
In fact that appendix which has no use for us today can actually kill us!
The journey out can be painful, -like a lot of journeys, -but well worth the effort. My husband makes me feel good too but as that's just an emotion I guess I should get rid if him. Apparently it will be painful but worth the effort! Evasion won't work. You know and I know that you are equivocating. And we both know why someone does that don't we?
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2019 21:20:34 GMT -5
** He is like the rich man/unbeliever in Luke 16 wanting to get out of Hades to warn others about this horrible place but can't do it. We the rich man suffered in much pains and want Lazarus come over to give him some cool water to ease his sufferings. The rich man has NOT faced the judgement Day= Lake of Fire, yet. Christians sure have sick fantasies about people who don't believe like they do! These are the words of Jesus/God in John 3:16-21 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 2, 2019 21:30:20 GMT -5
" contribute positively to society"One of the things that I observed in my own life when I was still in the 2x2's is about the "contribute positively to society."
There were so many things that I saw happening that needed to change society for the benefit of all people but I was hamstrung! when it came to trying to do something about it!
I didn't have the time! -Too busy going to "meetings"! -Too busy having to "study" the bible! I would have been called on the carpet for messing in "worldly affairs!"
Can you tell me what you are able to do that "contributes positively to society?" Also how do you find the time to do it?
Where and how I worship is irrelevant in this discussion. I am talking about God in my life -not about a particular denomination. I dont really understand where you are coming from . I can contribute in any way I see fit. Go to work, pay taxes,help others, work for charity,visit the elderly,coach a sport,join a club...you need any more? Why were you hamstrung? So going to church and reading your bible etc left you no time for positive contribution to society? Well if that was the case people that are committed to sport, those that work overtime or have a long commute to work must be off the list too. A pretty lame excuse. Jani, - I thought that from your posts that you are in the 2x2's.
That was my experiences when there.
If you ARE still in the 2x2's, my post is relevant, - if you aren't just forget it.
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Post by matisse on Jan 2, 2019 21:30:42 GMT -5
Christians sure have sick fantasies about people who don't believe like they do! These are the words of Jesus/God in John 3:16-21 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” I understand that this is what you believe. You have many sick fantasies about people like me who do not believe, for example, the one about the rich man and Lazarus
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 2, 2019 21:32:04 GMT -5
I notice that you resort to preaching; fear, hell, and damnation when you loose the argument. @matt10 said it well. I TELL you guys the truth in a NUTshell, according to God's words, the Creator of ALL things. If you want to believe there is NO God, that is your choice and you will live with your choice for eternity. Don't say we didn't warn you.
There is no eternity. Don't say we didn't warn you.
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2019 21:39:05 GMT -5
I TELL you guys the truth in a NUTshell, according to God's words, the Creator of ALL things. If you want to believe there is NO God, that is your choice and you will live with your choice for eternity. Don't say we didn't warn you.
There is no eternity. Don't say we didn't warn you. You said there is NO eternity but Jesus said there is John 3:15-16 "That whoever believes in him/Jesus may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."Who, do you think people should believe in you an atheist or in Jesus/God words?
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2019 21:42:45 GMT -5
These are the words of Jesus/God in John 3:16-21 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” I understand that this is what you believe. You have many sick fantasies about people like me who do not believe, for example, the one about the rich man and Lazarus This is NOT mine belief but MOST Christians believe what Jesus/God has taught in the New Testament/Bible. We just don't believe the atheists belief which is false! They say there is NO God, there's no Eternity and No heaven of HELL, either.
Jesus told the story of Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
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Post by matisse on Jan 2, 2019 21:45:51 GMT -5
I understand that this is what you believe. You have many sick fantasies about people like me who do not believe, for example, the one about the rich man and Lazarus This is NOT mine belief but MOST Christians believe what Jesus/God has taught in the New Testament/Bible.
I didn't intend to single you out. The sentiment applies to many Christians.
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2019 21:49:56 GMT -5
This is NOT mine belief but MOST Christians believe what Jesus/God has taught in the New Testament/Bible.
I didn't intend to single you out. The sentiment applies to many Christians. At one time you believed in God, Christ your Savior, the Bible, Heaven and Hell, Eternity and in Luke 16. Now, you changed and became an atheist. Don't let anyone/Satan take away your crown of life or blot out your name from the book of life.To the 7 churches in Asia/Turkey today, Jesus said... "Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou has LEFT they first love...He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will NOT BLOT out his/her name out of the book of life, but I will confess before MY Father, and before His angels."
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Post by matisse on Jan 2, 2019 22:27:10 GMT -5
I didn't intend to single you out. The sentiment applies to many Christians. At one time you believed in God, Christ your Savior, the Bible, Heaven and Hell, Eternity and in Luke 16. Now, you changed and became an atheist. Don't let anyone/Satan take away your crown of life or blot out your name from the book of life.To the 7 churches in Asia/Turkey today, Jesus said... "Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou has LEFT they first love...He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will NOT BLOT out his/her name out of the book of life, but I will confess before MY Father, and before His angels."
Yes, I believed, until one day there was a great **poof**. I didn't leave anything, it disappeared.
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2019 22:32:03 GMT -5
At one time you believed in God, Christ your Savior, the Bible, Heaven and Hell, Eternity and in Luke 16. Now, you changed and became an atheist. Don't let anyone/Satan take away your crown of life or blot out your name from the book of life.To the 7 churches in Asia/Turkey today, Jesus said... "Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou has LEFT they first love...He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will NOT BLOT out his/her name out of the book of life, but I will confess before MY Father, and before His angels."
Yes, I believed, until one day there was a great **poof**. I didn't leave anything, it disappeared. How can God just disappear? and we/Christians still believe in Him and He didn't go ** Poof ** on us. Could it be it was you, who went ** Poof ** on God.
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Post by matisse on Jan 2, 2019 22:57:39 GMT -5
Yes, I believed, until one day there was a great **poof**. I didn't leave anything, it disappeared. How can God just disappear? and we/Christians still believe in Him and He didn't go ** Poof ** on us. Could it be it was you, who went ** Poof ** on God.Back when I believed, I would have asked the same thing as you. No, it was definitely a **Poof** after which "God" was not only no longer, "God" had never been.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 2, 2019 23:18:47 GMT -5
Yes, I believed, until one day there was a great **poof**. I didn't leave anything, it disappeared. How can God just disappear? and we/Christians still believe in Him and He didn't go ** Poof ** on us. Could it be it was you, who went ** Poof ** on God. How did your previous belief just disappear?
The one that you had before?
Where was it to start with and where did it go when you no longer believed it?
Wasn't it in your mind both times?
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Post by jetmech on Jan 2, 2019 23:18:55 GMT -5
Neither one of you know that but of course you both have to gloat over your idea that Carl Sagan is frying in hell.
Way to go ! Keep the good work!
He was far more humble than either of you by admitting HE doesn't know everything. I don't believe ANYONE would be glad someone went to the "wrong place." I wouldn't laugh about that myself, because I believe no one, especially me, ever knows absolutely, without a doubt, they are going to heaven. I don't think Wally and Speak are gloating over this at all … I really don't. They're just pointing out that the chances of Carl Sagan's spirit realizing the reality of heaven and hell is real now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 23:20:38 GMT -5
I TELL you guys the truth in a NUTshell, according to God's words, the Creator of ALL things. If you want to believe there is NO God, that is your choice and you will live with your choice for eternity. Don't say we didn't warn you. Belief is NOT a choice. Try this. 1. Think of a food that you really don't like 2. Now "intentionally choose to believe" you like this food 3. Taste the food again. Did it work? i've had to do something similar to this before....had to stop using caffeine so had to stop drinking pepsi...the only option i could think of was 7-up which i hated...but nevertheless drank it and eventually came to like it...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 23:29:26 GMT -5
Neither one of you know that but of course you both have to gloat over your idea that Carl Sagan is frying in hell.
Way to go ! Keep the good work!
He was far more humble than either of you by admitting HE doesn't know everything. when have i or speak ever said we know everything? prove it....
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janj
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Post by janj on Jan 2, 2019 23:40:53 GMT -5
I find it interesting that you appear to almost resent the fact that people can have a faith and are 100% happy with what it brings into their lives. If people are content, why would you want to change things for them? Surely if you believe life finishes when you die, then all you would want for people is for them to live happy lives and contribute positively to society? Maybe you dont want people to have what you haven't go? Just curious. Actually, I agree with this. I have said for some time that if atheists want to have theists become atheists then they need to have something as comforting to offer. I am an atheist and while it's the only road for me, I fully understand that other's need the comfort and security that religions bring to some people. I do believe we have only one life and I do think it's important to be happy in it. The only time I advocate that people leave their God belief system is if they are having lots of problems with cognitive dissonance. Then maybe it's time to let go of those beliefs that require faith. I am a believer that people need to do whatever it takes to lead a happy peaceful life. If belief in a god, doesn't matter which one, is what does that for them, then by all means do that. For me I failed at faith. I needed something more concrete, something that I could have proof of. When it happened to me that I realized there was no evidence of a God, it was very scary at first. I'd grown up to believe in an afterlife and all sorts of things and it was quite a transition to let all that go. But it's the best thing I ever did for myself. So if belief in a god is the best thing you can do for your self, then by all means, do that. But please, don't view us that no longer believe as immoral or the enemy. We aren't. We are simply people that no longer believe there is a god of any kind. Thank you Snow, I appreciate your answer. Believe me, I fo not regard non believers as enemies or immoral. Some of my nearest and dearest family are atheists and I love them no less, they are great people just seeking to do their best in life. Aren't we all??
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Post by speak on Jan 2, 2019 23:41:22 GMT -5
Neither one of you know that but of course you both have to gloat over your idea that Carl Sagan is frying in hell.
Way to go ! Keep the good work!
He was far more humble than either of you by admitting HE doesn't know everything. Oh hark miss goodie two shoes.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 2, 2019 23:43:52 GMT -5
i'll bet hes not saying that now.... That's funny Wally. A minister awhile back talked about a famous writer who made jokes about GOD all his life, made fun of GOD, and declared he was an athiest ... while he lay dying he screamed and cried and begged GOD to forgive him. This minister said it was too late for that man ... he died a couple or so days after that. We need a link for the name this "writer's" deathbed story, jetmech. Christians just love to claim such stories about atheists, -doesn't matter whether they are true or not.
In fact Carl Sagan's wife had something to say about that after he died. "When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again.
Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting."
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janj
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Post by janj on Jan 2, 2019 23:46:14 GMT -5
My husband makes me feel good too but as that's just an emotion I guess I should get rid if him. Apparently it will be painful but worth the effort! Evasion won't work. You know and I know that you are equivocating. And we both know why someone does that don't we?
No actually I said that to point out how ridiculous your reply was🙂. We are going around d in circles but ... give up something that satisfies you and gives you everything you want & need in life because it makes you feel good. Isnt that was what life is about??? If not too bad...Ill stick with what I have thanks. All the best d good.
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Post by jetmech on Jan 2, 2019 23:48:48 GMT -5
That's funny Wally. A minister awhile back talked about a famous writer who made jokes about GOD all his life, made fun of GOD, and declared he was an athiest ... while he lay dying he screamed and cried and begged GOD to forgive him. This minister said it was too late for that man ... he died a couple or so days after that. We need a link for the name this "writer's" deathbed story, jetmech. Christians just love to claim such stories about atheists, -doesn't matter whether they are true or not.
In fact Carl Sagan's wife had something to say about that after he died. "When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again.
Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting."
I don't know really what to say to that dmmichgood without offending you; but, in terms of what you shared about how brief life is, I know we'll be dead a lot longer that we lived on this earth, so you have every right to do what you want; but, I'm not taking any chances. I am in touch with some workers and I plan to go back to meeting myself.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 3, 2019 0:11:33 GMT -5
Evasion won't work. You know and I know that you are equivocating. And we both know why someone does that don't we?
No actually I said that to point out how ridiculous your reply was🙂. We are going around d in circles but ... give up something that satisfies you and gives you everything you want & need in life because it makes you feel good. Isnt that was what life is about??? If not too bad...Ill stick with what I have thanks. All the best d good. However, janj, -you are getting away from what you said in your original post.
Here is what you said. "I find it interesting that you appear to almost resent the fact that people can have a faith and are 100% happy with what it brings into their lives. If people are content, why would you want to change things for them? Surely if you believe life finishes when you die, then all you would want for people is for them to live happy lives and contribute positively to society? Maybe you don't want people to have what you haven't got? Why do you think my answer is therefore ridiculous?
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Post by nathan on Jan 3, 2019 0:12:50 GMT -5
We need a link for the name this "writer's" deathbed story, jetmech. Christians just love to claim such stories about atheists, -doesn't matter whether they are true or not.
In fact Carl Sagan's wife had something to say about that after he died. "When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again.
Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting."
I don't know really what to say to that dmmichgood without offending you; but, in terms of what you shared about how brief life is, I know we'll be dead a lot longer that we lived on this earth, so you have every right to do what you want; but, I'm not taking any chances. I am in touch with some workers and I plan to go back to meeting myself. That would be awesome! You can meet so many workers and friends through different states with your job. Stop in Oregon and I will take you to the best Vietnamese and Chinese food in the world.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 3, 2019 0:23:41 GMT -5
We need a link for the name this "writer's" deathbed story, jetmech. Christians just love to claim such stories about atheists, -doesn't matter whether they are true or not.
In fact Carl Sagan's wife had something to say about that after he died. "When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again.
Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting."
I don't know really what to say to that dmmichgood without offending you; but, in terms of what you shared about how brief life is, I know we'll be dead a lot longer that we lived on this earth, so you have every right to do what you want; but, I'm not taking any chances. I am in touch with some workers and I plan to go back to meeting myself. Please stop worrying about offending ME! What I post is about ideas NOT about ME personally!
When ANYONE states something I just want to how TRUE it is! I have had enough of trying to understand crazy falsehoods all my life!
So I no longer just accept anything somebody SAYS is true.
PS; I wish you well in going back to meetings, Jetmech.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 3, 2019 0:33:08 GMT -5
Neither one of you know that but of course you both have to gloat over your idea that Carl Sagan is frying in hell.
Way to go ! Keep the good work!
He was far more humble than either of you by admitting HE doesn't know everything. Oh hark miss goodie two shoes. Hark, -I said that Sagan, not me, -was far more humble than either of them by admitting HE doesn't know everything.
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