Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 6:38:48 GMT -5
The situation you find yourself in is not uncommon. I had a friend who left the 2x2 system who felt that he couldn’t discuss the situation with his parents even 10 years after leaving. The only time that he attempted to talk about the situation, it swiftly became so emotionally charged that the subject was immediately dropped and never again spoken of. His parents continued to believe that he was a prodigal who would return and he would still receive invitations to missions popped through his letter box despite the fact he had long since ceased to believe in God. It used to irk me somewhat that he wouldn’t just tell them outright and bring the whole sorry charade to a close but he found it much too difficult and sought solace in the fact that allowing them to continue to believe he was a prodigal brought them some form of comfort. Everyone’s situation is different and different people respond differently. My own experience is that telling my parents up front led to a much more honest and open relationship and avoided a future awkwardly tiptoeing around the issue. However I think it’s safe to say that the 2x2s love a prodigal. A prodigal doesn’t threaten their belief system. A prodigal provides a project for the workers to work on. A prodigal provides hope for the future. A prodigal is always welcome at convention and can even be a focus of attention. A prodigal is merely classified as ‘unwilling’ which is seen as less shameful than the ‘bitter’ non believer. And of course a prodigal is always a good subject for a Sunday morning sermon as the parable is pretty straightforward. Matt10 i don't see how the "hope" of a prodigal son is such a bad thing... I dont think I said that the ‘hope’ of a prodigal son is such a bad thing. But if you are asking me if it is a good thing for a parent to take comfort in their hope that their son will return when the son has an absolute zero chance of returning, and in fact believes that God is merely a figment of their imagination, then I would day, No, that isn’t such a good thing. But I accept that you might think it is a good thing in the same way you might take comfort in the hope that Jesus will one day come back despite there being absolutely zero chance of him returning. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 6:52:39 GMT -5
i don't see how the "hope" of a prodigal son is such a bad thing... I dont think I said that the ‘hope’ of a prodigal son is such a bad thing. But if you are asking me if it is a good thing for a parent to take comfort in their hope that their son will return when the son has an absolute zero chance of returning, and in fact believes that God is merely a figment of their imagination, then I would day, No, that isn’t such a good thing. But I accept that you might think it is a good thing in the same way you might take comfort in the hope that Jesus will one day come back despite there being absolutely zero chance of him returning. Matt10 my mistake i see now you were posting such a positive outlook on the prodigal story....
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 11:26:55 GMT -5
Btw, you have the wrong understanding of being like a child when considering yourself or anyone else in the family of God. It's kind of like Jesus told his Apostles when he sent them out, to be wise as serpents but as harmless as a dove. I do understand perfectly the idea behind making people feel like a children. I have studied it in depth.
When you put people in a place where they feel like a child, -a lot of psychological factors emerge.
As to the quote, "to be wise as serpents but as harmless as a dove," - isn't in the same category as being like a child.
No, it isn't to make people feel like children but that the person in question would be like a child in Innocence, guileless, animosity, anger(children don't often keep their anger for long) and other emotions. Being pure and uninfluenced by others and their environment. To be wise as serpents and harmless as doves IS the same idea. It doesn't mean for the person to become a serpent but to be wise like one. Otherwords know your environment, know how to deal with it, know whether to stand firm and stand your ground and if you do stand your ground, just don't harm someone else. This is being harmless as a dove.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 11:54:55 GMT -5
Well, O learned one, according to Greek mythology "Hades" is the God of the underworld, which was given his name as well. As I was speaking about the NT meaning which is an interpretation of the OT "Sheol" which is Hades as the unseen realm of the dead or the grave. Or the place of bodily decay. Or the place of the punishment of the wicked of the dead. www.blueletterbible.orgFact: When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol Fact: Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead (please note the word appears) Fact: during the Second Temple period (500 BC–70 AD) a more diverse set of ideas developed wherein Sheol was considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked Fact: The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades in Greek" (rephaim in Hebrew), entities without personality or strength Fact: this then shows the etymology of the Greek word Hades. Just because all these Greeks from History abused poor old Hades' personal name doesn't mean you need to continue to carry on in their tradition. Hades is the given name of a God or demigod if you will. But don't take my word for this. perhaps you will accept as an authority: www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Hades/hades.html I would give a quote from a textbook but you might not own any. "Hades means “The Unseen One” – a suitable name since Hades is the ruler of the invisible world. However, the Ancient Greeks rarely used this name – just like Christians rarely used the word “Hell” during the Middle Ages. So, since minerals and precious metals are found underground, they often referred to Hades euphemistically as Plouton – namely, “The Wealth-Giver.” Unsurprisingly, Hades’ Roman equivalent is called Pluto as well." So let all give respect back to old Hades and use his given name correctly and while about that maybe also pray to him for some of that gold and silver and precious stones. I wasn't the one who called the grave Hades, nor hell Hades so don't jump on me. Hell was given the name of the underworld god as a nod to his kingdom, as a nod to his rightful possession. And that I had quoted was from the blueletterbible.com. The Bible uses Hades as the unseen place for the body decay. So since Hades means unseen as to the god, it's fitting to use it for the unseen place for body decay. What's ironic, here you're all up in arms as to what you see as a slur on Hades the unseen underworld god and you turn around and denigrate the Christian God who you say there is no evidence of! Sheesh that's really funny! Perhaps all those gems people are blessed with by Hades, the god, is the gems that people are buried with. One might think Hades the god is stealing dead people's gems but hey, they're buried in his kingdom, so I guess that is in his jurisdiction so he can claim anything there in! As to your snide remark about me having or not having textbooks. Well, I'll be as kind to you. Would you like to borrow my Kansas law mediation texts? Or maybe my medical assistant s texts?. Since having moved to an apartment I had to decrease my library. It was a hard thing to do. I had a horrible time of leaving out my fairy tales, my comic books, my Harlequin novels, and many other books. But I kept my medical and mediation law books in order to use as references. Downsizing and all like that!
|
|
|
Post by intelchips on Nov 3, 2018 12:39:20 GMT -5
sharingtheriches
I suppose it shows a certain laziness on my part that I don't pay particular attention to who is behind the thoughts expressed herein but rather the thoughts themselves so if I seem a bit hard on you please accept my thought process for what it is. I often tend to use tongue-in-cheek quips to express contempt for out-and-out wrong ideas that have been well researched over many years. Like in the popular TV-Series The Game of Throne when the serving women of the "khaleesi" say "it is known" well that's just plan old wrong because most of the ideas expressed on this forum are not known because they have been replaced with better researched facts...
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 13:01:25 GMT -5
As in all things that affect human discourses, it comes down to "rightly dividing".
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Nov 3, 2018 13:50:58 GMT -5
Just because the Bible doesn't make sense to some, that doesn't mean it won't make sense for others. I've tried to tell you that God will not reveal himself or his business to those who are skeptical OR unable to understand what is right before them. One can dig all day and never get to the bottom of the hole. Whereas others can dig a wee hour and the bottom is right before them The believer is compelled to blame the skeptic for "failing to see the Emperor's Clothes." Once you see through the human-derived, group-think bolstered scheme, there is no going back. I would argue that skeptics see what is right in front of you that you cannot see. I would also argue that believers tend to be too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be willing/able to see what skeptics see.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 3, 2018 13:57:54 GMT -5
Just because the Bible doesn't make sense to some, that doesn't mean it won't make sense for others. I've tried to tell you that God will not reveal himself or his business to those who are skeptical OR unable to understand what is right before them. One can dig all day and never get to the bottom of the hole. Whereas others can dig a wee hour and the bottom is right before them The believer is compelled to blame the skeptic for "failing to see the Emperor's Clothes." Once you see through the human-derived, group-think bolstered scheme, there is no going back. I would argue that skeptics see what is right in front of you that you cannot see. I would also argue that believers tend to be too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be willing/able to see what skeptics see. I think a good analogy for god believers is someone buying shares or investing in term deposits with a hope that sometime in the future there is a reward. Atheists have realized there is no reward and are not investing in the house of cards.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 17:29:57 GMT -5
Just because the Bible doesn't make sense to some, that doesn't mean it won't make sense for others. I've tried to tell you that God will not reveal himself or his business to those who are skeptical OR unable to understand what is right before them. One can dig all day and never get to the bottom of the hole. Whereas others can dig a wee hour and the bottom is right before them The believer is compelled to blame the skeptic for "failing to see the Emperor's Clothes." Once you see through the human-derived, group-think bolstered scheme, there is no going back. I would argue that skeptics see what is right in front of you that you cannot see. I would also argue that believers tend to be too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be willing/able to see what skeptics see. As I've said, God will not reveal his business to skeptics, even those just a tiny skeptic. There is truth in the Bible and people can deny it all they want to, but it's still there. Tunnel vision of skeptics cause them to see only things they aren't skeptical about.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 17:30:50 GMT -5
The believer is compelled to blame the skeptic for "failing to see the Emperor's Clothes." Once you see through the human-derived, group-think bolstered scheme, there is no going back. I would argue that skeptics see what is right in front of you that you cannot see. I would also argue that believers tend to be too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be willing/able to see what skeptics see. I think a good analogy for god believers is someone buying shares or investing in term deposits with a hope that sometime in the future there is a reward. Atheists have realized there is no reward and are not investing in the house of cards. Did you break your arm?
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 3, 2018 17:39:13 GMT -5
I think a good analogy for god believers is someone buying shares or investing in term deposits with a hope that sometime in the future there is a reward. Atheists have realized there is no reward and are not investing in the house of cards. Did you break your arm? 1987 was a bad year.
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Nov 3, 2018 17:44:03 GMT -5
The believer is compelled to blame the skeptic for "failing to see the Emperor's Clothes." Once you see through the human-derived, group-think bolstered scheme, there is no going back. I would argue that skeptics see what is right in front of you that you cannot see. I would also argue that believers tend to be too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be willing/able to see what skeptics see. As I've said, God will not reveal his business to skeptics, even those just a tiny skeptic. There is truth in the Bible and people can deny it all they want to, but it's still there. Tunnel vision of skeptics cause them to see only things they aren't skeptical about. Sure, there are some good things in the Bible. But it is not the only source of good things, and some of its most quotable ideas are not original. Tunnel vision of skeptics? In my experience, once I was no longer beholden to Christianity, I was able to step back and look at a bigger picture of world religions and mythology, and see Christianity as occupying one spot in a much larger history.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 3, 2018 18:15:17 GMT -5
I do understand perfectly the idea behind making people feel like a children. I have studied it in depth.
When you put people in a place where they feel like a child, -a lot of psychological factors emerge.
As to the quote, "to be wise as serpents but as harmless as a dove," - isn't in the same category as being like a child.
No, it isn't to make people feel like children but that the person in question would be like a child in Innocence, guileless, animosity, anger(children don't often keep their anger for long) and other emotions. Being pure and uninfluenced by others and their environment. To be wise as serpents and harmless as doves IS the same idea. It doesn't mean for the person to become a serpent but to be wise like one. Other words know your environment, know how to deal with it, know whether to stand firm and stand your ground and if you do stand your ground, just don't harm someone else. This is being harmless as a dove. STR, you are trying to back track.
Time & time again you HAVE posted about FEELING like a child.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 3, 2018 18:32:17 GMT -5
I think a good analogy for god believers is someone buying shares or investing in term deposits with a hope that sometime in the future there is a reward. Atheists have realized there is no reward and are not investing in the house of cards. Did you break your arm? What do you mean by this?
"Did you break your arm?
|
|
|
Post by xna on Nov 3, 2018 18:40:55 GMT -5
As I've said, God will not reveal his business to skeptics, even those just a tiny skeptic.That doesn't fit with John 20:24-29
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 3, 2018 18:46:07 GMT -5
What do you mean by this?
"Did you break your arm? I wondered that too, DM so gave a like answer.
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 3, 2018 20:52:58 GMT -5
My parents have definitely been coping by looking me as a prodigal son who just hasn't returned yet. I really wish it was easier to talk at length about religious issues with my family and friends. But there's so much emotion involved that nobody wants to bring it up unless they're unaware or unafraid of the consequences. I'm sorry for the harm religion has brought to you. If it helps any, you are not alone. In time, if not already, you will come to forgive them. I feel like I was dealt an extremely good hand in life. It could've been better, but also a lot worse. It's not that religion has made my life much worse; it's that all our lives could be much better if we could just make more reasonable decisions in general and overcome division. I don't harbor a serious grudge against most religious people, especially not the ones I grew up around.
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 3, 2018 20:57:32 GMT -5
My parents have definitely been coping by looking me as a prodigal son who just hasn't returned yet. I really wish it was easier to talk at length about religious issues with my family and friends. But there's so much emotion involved that nobody wants to bring it up unless they're unaware or unafraid of the consequences. The situation you find yourself in is not uncommon. I had a friend who left the 2x2 system who felt that he couldn’t discuss the situation with his parents even 10 years after leaving. The only time that he attempted to talk about the situation, it swiftly became so emotionally charged that the subject was immediately dropped and never again spoken of. His parents continued to believe that he was a prodigal who would return and he would still receive invitations to missions popped through his letter box despite the fact he had long since ceased to believe in God. It used to irk me somewhat that he wouldn’t just tell them outright and bring the whole sorry charade to a close but he found it much too difficult and sought solace in the fact that allowing them to continue to believe he was a prodigal brought them some form of comfort. Everyone’s situation is different and different people respond differently. My own experience is that telling my parents up front led to a much more honest and open relationship and avoided a future awkwardly tiptoeing around the issue. However I think it’s safe to say that the 2x2s love a prodigal. A prodigal doesn’t threaten their belief system. A prodigal provides a project for the workers to work on. A prodigal provides hope for the future. A prodigal is always welcome at convention and can even be a focus of attention. A prodigal is merely classified as ‘unwilling’ which is seen as less shameful than the ‘bitter’ non believer. And of course a prodigal is always a good subject for a Sunday morning sermon as the parable is pretty straightforward. Matt10 My parents are definitely aware that I don't believe in god, and nobody's pushed me to go back. (Except for a gentle reminder every once in a long while, when it comes up in conversation -- planning visits and such.) Definitely agree with your last sentiments!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 23:57:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 4, 2018 0:04:36 GMT -5
As I've said, God will not reveal his business to skeptics, even those just a tiny skeptic.That doesn't fit with John 20:24-29
It wasn't that Thomas was skeptical about Jesus Christ, he'd spent three years with already. It was that resurrection was something that wasn't a natural occurrence in his world. He didn't get the lesson Jesus tried to give his Apostles when he resurrected Lazarus. It's quite a bit of difference between atheists and doubting Thomas. Thomas was already in the right place and mind.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 4, 2018 0:08:21 GMT -5
No, it isn't to make people feel like children but that the person in question would be like a child in Innocence, guileless, animosity, anger(children don't often keep their anger for long) and other emotions. Being pure and uninfluenced by others and their environment. To be wise as serpents and harmless as doves IS the same idea. It doesn't mean for the person to become a serpent but to be wise like one. Other words know your environment, know how to deal with it, know whether to stand firm and stand your ground and if you do stand your ground, just don't harm someone else. This is being harmless as a dove. STR, you are trying to back track.
Time & time again you HAVE posted about FEELING like a child.I don't remember saying such in the same instance as I was talking about here. Or I didn't mean to. That's the reason I tried to clarify what I meant. I have no idea what you mean time after time I posted Iwas feeling like a child. Sure got me on that.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 4, 2018 0:32:36 GMT -5
What are you sorry about?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 4, 2018 2:11:59 GMT -5
The believer is compelled to blame the skeptic for "failing to see the Emperor's Clothes." Once you see through the human-derived, group-think bolstered scheme, there is no going back. I would argue that skeptics see what is right in front of you that you cannot see. I would also argue that believers tend to be too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be willing/able to see what skeptics see. As I've said, God will not reveal his business to skeptics, even those just a tiny skeptic. There is truth in the Bible and people can deny it all they want to, but it's still there. Tunnel vision of skeptics cause them to see only things they aren't skeptical about. Circular reasoning again!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 4, 2018 4:12:35 GMT -5
STR, you are trying to back track.
Time & time again you HAVE posted about FEELING like a child. I don't remember saying such in the same instance as I was talking about here. Or I didn't mean to. That's the reason I tried to clarify what I meant. I have no idea what you mean time after time I posted I was feeling like a child. Sure got me on that. How can one be LIKE a child if they don't FEEL like a child?
Actually most children aren't even as you portray them.
They are influenced by others and their environment as well.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 4, 2018 14:33:10 GMT -5
What are you sorry about? I'm sorry that you had a bad year! I've had a few of those and I have no desire anybody would have them.
|
|
|
Post by jetmech on Nov 4, 2018 15:25:04 GMT -5
I don't remember saying such in the same instance as I was talking about here. Or I didn't mean to. That's the reason I tried to clarify what I meant. I have no idea what you mean time after time I posted I was feeling like a child. Sure got me on that. How can one be LIKE a child if they don't FEEL like a child?
Actually most children aren't even as you portray them.
They are influenced by others and their environment as well.
I think there's more to this dmmichgood ... A child has a sensitive conscience and a keen sense of shame. If a child tells a lie, for example, many times they'll come forward later, fess up, say their sorry and often shed tears. Ir's possible the harden your heart ... to the point a person can tell a straight-face lie and feel no remorse nor regret for it. I remember as a kid how sensitive I was and moved easily to tears of I lied or sinned. The military hammers all that sensitivity out of a person in basic training for one thing, but aside from that ... If a person has no sense of guilt for violating GOD'S commandments this,is a sign they have hardened their heart! GOD can't reach a person who has pride or a hardened heart, and this is where GOD then will leave a person with a reprobate mind unable to deal with that that person. In the other hand if a person maintains their sensitivity, righteous living etc ... they can still be reached by GOD. I remember reading in the Bible where when Lazarus died ... Jesus wept; therefore, clearly, Jesus had maintained sensitivity and a good operable conscience. Now, DMMICH, please don't feel offended, I'm not attackinh you in any way ... I'm just saying that perhaps you didn't think this through far enough. I wish you GOD'S speed.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 4, 2018 16:15:31 GMT -5
What are you sorry about? I'm sorry that you had a bad year! I've had a few of those and I have no desire anybody would have them. Thankyou, 1987 cost many people not only an arm but also the other arm and both legs.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 4, 2018 18:21:53 GMT -5
How can one be LIKE a child if they don't FEEL like a child?
Actually most children aren't even as you portray them.
They are influenced by others and their environment as well.
I think there's more to this dmmichgood ... A child has a sensitive conscience and a keen sense of shame. If a child tells a lie, for example, many times they'll come forward later, fess up, say their sorry and often shed tears. Ir's possible the harden your heart ... to the point a person can tell a straight-face lie and feel no remorse nor regret for it. I remember as a kid how sensitive I was and moved easily to tears of I lied or sinned. The military hammers all that sensitivity out of a person in basic training for one thing, but aside from that ... If a person has no sense of guilt for violating GOD'S commandments this,is a sign they have hardened their heart! GOD can't reach a person who has pride or a hardened heart, and this is where GOD then will leave a person with a reprobate mind unable to deal with that that person. In the other hand if a person maintains their sensitivity, righteous living etc ... they can still be reached by GOD. I remember reading in the Bible where when Lazarus died ... Jesus wept; therefore, clearly, Jesus had maintained sensitivity and a good operable conscience. Now, DMMICH, please don't feel offended, I'm not attackinh you in any way ... I'm just saying that perhaps you didn't think this through far enough. I wish you GOD'S speed. Of course I am not offended, jetmech! Why should I be?
All I wonder is where did you receive your degree in child psychology, jetmech?
|
|