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Post by nathan on Nov 2, 2018 17:51:18 GMT -5
*** After death Abrham's soul went to HADES the inner earth to be with the rest of Old Test. Believers (Adam, Eve, Noah, Isaac and so on). They all stayed on upper fixed gulf Abram's Bosom, waiting for Christ to rescue them.
Heaven door was closed to Fallen men and women and old test. Believers until Jesus pay the ransom price on Calvary. So basically everyone went to hell. Interesting. Yes, everyone including the Old Testament believers who died, their souls went to Hades/the realm of the dead. Their souls belong to Satan. The believers waited for Christ to come and take their souls back to the Father in heaven after he had paid the ransom priced.
Under the New Testament/covenant of Jesus, the believers no longer go to the Hades/the Realm of the dead that is INNER earth prison, but we go directly to be with Christ in heaven. The Unbelievers will continue go to Hades, where the Rich man stayed temporary until they face the Judge God and Christ at the Great White throne judgment day.
Where in the bible does it actually say there was more places than heaven or hell or that there were layers to hell? I don't remember ever reading that. Every Fallen human beings from Adam to the last person before the death of Jesus, who died their souls went to Hades! like a prison waiting to appear before the Judge/God in the DAY of Judgement. Hell is the everlasting LAKE of Fire, Only Satan, unbelievers souls will be thrown in there for Eternity. Jesus revealed to us there are two different places in HADES, inner earth prison for ALL souls, under the Old Testament/Covenant LUKE 16. Two different plains the Rich man/unbelievers, staying in a place of sufferings, looked up at Abraham's Bosom where the Lazarus stayed with Abraham enjoying the good time with the rest of the believers.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection to be judged by God and Christ.
Paul wrote about the time he was caught up the third heaven in II Cor 12: 1-2 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.... How that he was caught up into paradise.
~~ It seems there are paradise inside the earth, and paradise in heaven....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 18:00:42 GMT -5
I suspect that your reluctance or sorry is more about the church then God t it at least it was at the beginning of your sorrow of being made a functioning member of this church. I'm not sure what you mean, but my regret for leaving has never been strong (I don't feel like I was damaged as a person, luckily), and it has always been about the fact that I haven't found adequate reason to believe even the most fundamental claims of Christianity. My main "sorrow" is that many others, including my loved ones, don't see anywhere close to eye-to-eye with me now. We just don't talk about religion, even though it's the basis for many of the decisions they make. This wide gulch between the dissenter and the professing family members is something that ex2x2s who still believe in God are experiencing. I would think that atheism is a 2x2s worst nightmare. Though I've heard some 2x2s say they're more happy about their anti-believer's atheism because then they aren't in some false church. They seem to think there's a better chance of the atheist to come back to the 2x2 church, for at least they haven't been polluted by "false doctrine".
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 18:04:20 GMT -5
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. actually the rich man was seen from paradise/abrahams bosom not heaven they were and are two different places....and hell is forever.... Since "hell" to the Jews meant "the grave", the firey pit after judgment was described in Revelations. Which of course is a "hellish" place to be assigned to.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 2, 2018 18:17:05 GMT -5
just curious as to where you are coming from curylywurlysammagee. thanks. I am not sure what you mean by your question. Can you explain what you are asking further?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 18:18:48 GMT -5
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. HELL= Lake of Fire for Eternity.... The rich man/unbelievers was in Hades (below the crust/ground= inner earth), he saw Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom that WASN'T Heaven but in an UPPER level of Hades where the Old Testament SAVED believers a Temporary dwelling place or residence, waiting for Christ coming to SET them FREE from there and take ALL of them/souls back to the Father in heaven.
Luke 16 Jesus revealed where all the souls went after death. ALL souls belong to Satan and he keeps them In Hades (inner earth) there were two places ONE for the Rich man=unbelievers suffer in torments, regrets... They are staying there waiting to be judge by God in the Judgment day. The gulf was FIXED between the Unbelievers and SAVED believers in the Old Testament, Lazarus=believers stayed in Abraham's bosom where there was peace waiting for Christ's Spirit to come and rescue them after He had paid the ransom price on Calvary's Cross.
We/Christians are under the New Testament covenant... After death the Christians do NOT go to HADES like the Old Testament believers did for 4000 yrs because Jesus had NOT pay the ransom price for them, so their souls were STUCK in Hades until he paid it in full on Calvary Cross.
After Jesus had paid the ransom price in full, after death all believers go directly to be with Jesus in heaven. Jesus has set the New Testament believers FREE from going to Hades, ONLY the unbelievers will go to HADES after death waiting the rest of the Old Testament unbelievers until they all appear before God at the Judgment day= then they all be cast in the LAKE of fire forever=Eternity.
Since our Bible has Jewish background, "hell" and "Hades" are just words to describe the grave. They didn't believe in hell But as mentioned there are two different places that the dead had gone to after death. But Jesus got the victory over the grave and the faithful who die ascends to heaven in God's keeping until the day of resurrection when they are reunited with their transfigured flesh and arise to be with Jesus who's own transfigured flesh awaits them. This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead do not arise at this time but will arise for the Judgment Day. Those who are not of the first resurrection are in danger of the second death which is the firey pit. Now a point should be made about those of the second resurrection, it says they are "in danger" of the second death, but we must remember that on Judgment Day that it is the Judge's perogative to assign these folks to wherever he judges them worthy of and it seems by the words that they are in danger but it isn't fixed in concrete that they will receive the second death but their disposition is entirely up to the Righteous Judge! So actually the "grave" we survivors assign our beloved to, is not the "permanent hell".
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Post by intelchips on Nov 2, 2018 18:53:07 GMT -5
HELL= Lake of Fire for Eternity.... The rich man/unbelievers was in Hades (below the crust/ground= inner earth), he saw Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom that WASN'T Heaven but in an UPPER level of Hades where the Old Testament SAVED believers a Temporary dwelling place or residence, waiting for Christ coming to SET them FREE from there and take ALL of them/souls back to the Father in heaven.
Luke 16 Jesus revealed where all the souls went after death. ALL souls belong to Satan and he keeps them In Hades (inner earth) there were two places ONE for the Rich man=unbelievers suffer in torments, regrets... They are staying there waiting to be judge by God in the Judgment day. The gulf was FIXED between the Unbelievers and SAVED believers in the Old Testament, Lazarus=believers stayed in Abraham's bosom where there was peace waiting for Christ's Spirit to come and rescue them after He had paid the ransom price on Calvary's Cross.
We/Christians are under the New Testament covenant... After death the Christians do NOT go to HADES like the Old Testament believers did for 4000 yrs because Jesus had NOT pay the ransom price for them, so their souls were STUCK in Hades until he paid it in full on Calvary Cross.
After Jesus had paid the ransom price in full, after death all believers go directly to be with Jesus in heaven. Jesus has set the New Testament believers FREE from going to Hades, ONLY the unbelievers will go to HADES after death waiting the rest of the Old Testament unbelievers until they all appear before God at the Judgment day= then they all be cast in the LAKE of fire forever=Eternity.
Since our Bible has Jewish background, "hell" and "Hades" are just words to describe the grave. They didn't believe in hell But as mentioned there are two different places that the dead had gone to after death. But Jesus got the victory over the grave and the faithful who die ascends to heaven in God's keeping until the day of resurrection when they are reunited with their transfigured flesh and arise to be with Jesus who's own transfigured flesh awaits them. This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead do not arise at this time but will arise for the Judgment Day. Those who are not of the first resurrection are in danger of the second death which is the firey pit. Now a point should be made about those of the second resurrection, it says they are "in danger" of the second death, but we must remember that on Judgment Day that it is the Judge's perogative to assign these folks to wherever he judges them worthy of and it seems by the words that they are in danger but it isn't fixed in concrete that they will receive the second death but their disposition is entirely up to the Righteous Judge! So actually the "grave" we survivors assign our beloved to, is not the "permanent hell". So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand?
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Post by xna on Nov 2, 2018 19:07:24 GMT -5
It's unbelieveable to me how someone can even be brave enough to denounce GOD .... how far is it to this ?
Christian Fascism Comes To Brazil: New President Bolsonaro Promises Christian Theocracy
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Post by nathan on Nov 2, 2018 19:32:15 GMT -5
Since our Bible has Jewish background, "hell" and "Hades" are just words to describe the grave. They didn't believe in hell But as mentioned there are two different places that the dead had gone to after death. But Jesus got the victory over the grave and the faithful who die ascends to heaven in God's keeping until the day of resurrection when they are reunited with their transfigured flesh and arise to be with Jesus who's own transfigured flesh awaits them. This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead do not arise at this time but will arise for the Judgment Day. Those who are not of the first resurrection are in danger of the second death which is the firey pit. Now a point should be made about those of the second resurrection, it says they are "in danger" of the second death, but we must remember that on Judgment Day that it is the Judge's perogative to assign these folks to wherever he judges them worthy of and it seems by the words that they are in danger but it isn't fixed in concrete that they will receive the second death but their disposition is entirely up to the Righteous Judge! So actually the "grave" we survivors assign our beloved to, is not the "permanent hell". So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand? Satan is the ruler/god of sheol/the realm of the dead. The body goes to the grave but the souls go to Sheol/Hades. Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
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Post by jetmech on Nov 2, 2018 19:40:43 GMT -5
So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand? Satan is the ruler/god of sheol/the realm of the dead. The body goes to the grave but the souls go to Sheol/Hades. Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
Nathan I like your post here … I'm just wondering when the Bible says we are made in GOD's image … is it talking about our spirit ( which lives on after our body dies)? Since GOD is a spirit, and our spirit lives on forever in heaven or hades (whichever place our soul or spirit goes to) and our soul or spirit never dies, it seems to me logical that being made in GOD's image means our spirit rather than our physical body - which dies.
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Post by intelchips on Nov 2, 2018 19:49:58 GMT -5
So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand? Satan is the ruler/god of sheol/the realm of the dead. The body goes to the grave but the souls go to Sheol/Hades. Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
So, let me understand you Nathan, you are saying the lost people go "into" the body of the being Hades? How many bodies by volume do you think can be fitted into Hades body?
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jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
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Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2018 19:57:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean, but my regret for leaving has never been strong (I don't feel like I was damaged as a person, luckily), and it has always been about the fact that I haven't found adequate reason to believe even the most fundamental claims of Christianity. My main "sorrow" is that many others, including my loved ones, don't see anywhere close to eye-to-eye with me now. We just don't talk about religion, even though it's the basis for many of the decisions they make. This wide gulch between the dissenter and the professing family members is something that ex2x2s who still believe in God are experiencing. I would think that atheism is a 2x2s worst nightmare. Though I've heard some 2x2s say they're more happy about their anti-believer's atheism because then they aren't in some false church. They seem to think there's a better chance of the atheist to come back to the 2x2 church, for at least they haven't been polluted by "false doctrine". My parents have definitely been coping by looking me as a prodigal son who just hasn't returned yet. I really wish it was easier to talk at length about religious issues with my family and friends. But there's so much emotion involved that nobody wants to bring it up unless they're unaware or unafraid of the consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 20:02:45 GMT -5
all we have is the story of the rich man and lazarus speaking of abrahams bosom and then also Jesus saying the word paradise on the cross NOT heaven....there is also the suggestion Jesus went into the earth and freed the captives(those in paradise)... So we don't know that Abraham's bosom wasn't heaven and also that Paradise wasn't heaven? We are just presuming that? thats the general understanding....probably came by revelation....
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Post by openingact34 on Nov 2, 2018 20:41:09 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 20:42:03 GMT -5
Since our Bible has Jewish background, "hell" and "Hades" are just words to describe the grave. They didn't believe in hell But as mentioned there are two different places that the dead had gone to after death. But Jesus got the victory over the grave and the faithful who die ascends to heaven in God's keeping until the day of resurrection when they are reunited with their transfigured flesh and arise to be with Jesus who's own transfigured flesh awaits them. This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead do not arise at this time but will arise for the Judgment Day. Those who are not of the first resurrection are in danger of the second death which is the firey pit. Now a point should be made about those of the second resurrection, it says they are "in danger" of the second death, but we must remember that on Judgment Day that it is the Judge's perogative to assign these folks to wherever he judges them worthy of and it seems by the words that they are in danger but it isn't fixed in concrete that they will receive the second death but their disposition is entirely up to the Righteous Judge! So actually the "grave" we survivors assign our beloved to, is not the "permanent hell". So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand? Well, O learned one, according to Greek mythology "Hades" is the God of the underworld, which was given his name as well. As I was speaking about the NT meaning which is an interpretation of the OT "Sheol" which is Hades as the unseen realm of the dead or the grave. Or the place of bodily decay. Or the place of the punishment of the wicked of the dead. www.blueletterbible.org
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Post by xna on Nov 2, 2018 20:47:03 GMT -5
It's very sad what is and has been done in the name of gods. from the song
"Go ahead and hate your neighbor, Go ahead and cheat a friend, Do it in the name of heaven, You can justify it in the end."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 20:58:09 GMT -5
So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand? Satan is the ruler/god of sheol/the realm of the dead. The body goes to the grave but the souls go to Sheol/Hades. Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
I believe according to all I've ever heard and according to some references that "hell", "grave","Hades" and "Sheol" all mean the same place. Sheol is from the OT Jews. They didn't believe in "hell" as modern day People use "hell". But the NT usuage of "hell" and "Hades" is the place where bodily decay happen. Which is what we call the grave. Jesus visited those held by death in the belly of the earth or the grave or Hades or Sheol and set the captives free. He also preached the gospel so those who were yet to face punishment, would have no excuse in Judgment Day that no one ever told them about the gospel. It's my understanding that this who are "born again" in the spirit by the Spirit have the forever living spirits, eternal spirits. Thus the "living" that Jesus is Lord of. The dead are those who have no eternal living spirit, which not only speaks about those who a have passed from the earth, but those still alive in the earth that have not been "born again in the spirit by the Spirit". Jesus is their Lord as well. He will deal with them in Judgment Day by righteous judgment. The Paradise that some think are Abraham s bosum, is actually heaven where living spirits go to be in God's care until they are reunited with their transfigured bodies in the First resurrection. Paradise wasn't a thing until Jesus died in the cross The dead which in times before Jesus were all held captive in the graves until Jesus went and set the living spirits free. Their bodies remained in the grave. However those who are spiritually dead remain in the graves until their resurrection day to face the righteous Judge. I think the "in Abraham's bosum" is the fact that these living spirits still held by death in the grave had one thing that brought them together in the spirit, it was they fully trusted and believed that God's plan of salvation, Jesus Christ would become and then they knew the grave couldn't hold them anymore. The difference was when they died they died with living hope whereas the unreborn would be held in the grave without hope. The lesson of the rich man and poor Lazarus is "hope" and faith in the living God that he will always do what he promised.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 21:15:42 GMT -5
So we don't know that Abraham's bosom wasn't heaven and also that Paradise wasn't heaven? We are just presuming that? thats the general understanding....probably came by revelation.... I think Paradise is part of heaven but it's where God's chosen have "entered into their rest" as Paul described. Otherwords they are there in their Sabbath until they are reunited with their transfigured body on resurrection day. You've heard the term "asleep in Jesus"?
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Post by nathan on Nov 2, 2018 21:17:24 GMT -5
Satan is the ruler/god of sheol/the realm of the dead. The body goes to the grave but the souls go to Sheol/Hades. Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
Nathan I like your post here … I'm just wondering when the Bible says we are made in GOD's image … is it talking about our spirit ( which lives on after our body dies)? Since GOD is a spirit, and our spirit lives on forever in heaven or hades (whichever place our soul or spirit goes to) and our soul or spirit never dies, it seems to me logical that being made in GOD's image means our spirit rather than our physical body - which dies.
Here is my understanding... God created Adam and Eve in Their Image and Likeness of God= Eternal just like God before the FALL in the Garden of Eden. After they were deceived by the Serpent/Satan to eat the forbidden fruit/disobedience or side with Satan, they became Mortal beings/physical and spiritual death and separation from the Godhead forever.
Jesus/God said Ye are gods! We were created in His image and His Likeness... Jesus died to pay the ransom price to RESTORE our "ye are gods!" Spirits back to us.
God can't allow the fallen human spirits of disobedience to enter New earth and Heaven. That was WHY, Jesus said to the Humans, "Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN." to enter the kingdom of God in heaven. Christ came to give us NEW Spirits so we can live in heaven with God forever.
Christ/God begotten in the man Jesus and his death on Calvary's Cross RESTORED the Image and Likeness of God which they created us before the FALL of Adam and Eve. The purpose of God creating Adam, Eve and their eternal humans children was to be Their children of the King to RULE and REIGN in the Universe with them to share THEIR glory in heaven. There will be a lot of work to be accomplished during the 1000 year reign on the earth and in the Universe. God is training, teaching and conforming us to the image of Christ, in this life to prepare for the future coming events.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 21:20:13 GMT -5
Satan is the ruler/god of sheol/the realm of the dead. The body goes to the grave but the souls go to Sheol/Hades. Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
Nathan I like your post here … I'm just wondering when the Bible says we are made in GOD's image … is it talking about our spirit ( which lives on after our body dies)? Since GOD is a spirit, and our spirit lives on forever in heaven or hades (whichever place our soul or spirit goes to) and our soul or spirit never dies, it seems to me logical that being made in GOD's image means our spirit rather than our physical body - which dies.
We are made like Father and Son in that we can think for ourselves (or hopefully we can). We have emotions, we're able to converse with one another, we can keep learning our entire lives, we're supposed to have a more efficient brain. And as God is a spirit so are we.
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Post by xna on Nov 2, 2018 22:07:33 GMT -5
My parents have definitely been coping by looking me as a prodigal son who just hasn't returned yet. I really wish it was easier to talk at length about religious issues with my family and friends. But there's so much emotion involved that nobody wants to bring it up unless they're unaware or unafraid of the consequences. I'm sorry for the harm religion has brought to you. If it helps any, you are not alone. In time, if not already, you will come to forgive them.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 3, 2018 0:26:54 GMT -5
Fear is a strong fundamental emotion, and Christianity uses fear a lot to control. The bible has many example of uses of fear to control. For example in this same thread nathan quoted this verse with fear. Proverbs 1:7 Says " ... The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.
Fear of going to hell is what you need saved from. If you removed fear, hell and damnation you could improve Christianity. JMT. All the years I was in the two by two church, the word "fear" in relation to God doesn't mean a fear to control. It is a "fear" of respect, awe and love. The exact fear that young children have towards their parents. That fear is simply a desire to always please the parent. And yes I know that many parents do put real fear in their children by being abusive toward them. That's why it says that we are to be like children in the family of God. Looking to him for not only mercy and love, but for teaching us and guiding us and even guarding us to make sure we are safe in his care. Am I afraid of God? Not really, I don't want to have him be disappointed in me. But I know I can go to him with whatever is going on in me or around me. I know that some adults in the two by two have gone overboard in using fear as a control over those whom they've had jurisdiction of. Teaching fear as in terror in trying to make them very and do what "they think" is God's will. I feel that when we're in sincerity in our relationship with God, we should feel a familiar spirit between us and God. Why? He created us, before the world ever became and when he saw the time was for our earthly pilgrimage, voila! here we are. But feeling like we've come home when we're conversing with God should be very normal. STR, How can you possibly say that all the years you were in the two by two's that "fear" didn't control how you acted, -what you wore, -where you went, -even how you talked to other people; -in fact everything that you did?
You say it is like the "fear" that children have towards their parents: " respect, awe and love," - and "simply a desire to always please the parent" and NOT "disappoint god."
That attempt to liken adults to "children" was one of the reasons I began to see through religion, -Christianity, -the bible or whatever one wants to call it. By likening oneself to a child who is only listening to a "father" serves all kinds of benefits
Releases us of the responsibilities of a adult.
Makes us feel safe "cared for" by someone.
It is pure rationalization!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 0:53:01 GMT -5
All the years I was in the two by two church, the word "fear" in relation to God doesn't mean a fear to control. It is a "fear" of respect, awe and love. The exact fear that young children have towards their parents. That fear is simply a desire to always please the parent. And yes I know that many parents do put real fear in their children by being abusive toward them. That's why it says that we are to be like children in the family of God. Looking to him for not only mercy and love, but for teaching us and guiding us and even guarding us to make sure we are safe in his care. Am I afraid of God? Not really, I don't want to have him be disappointed in me. But I know I can go to him with whatever is going on in me or around me. I know that some adults in the two by two have gone overboard in using fear as a control over those whom they've had jurisdiction of. Teaching fear as in terror in trying to make them very and do what "they think" is God's will. I feel that when we're in sincerity in our relationship with God, we should feel a familiar spirit between us and God. Why? He created us, before the world ever became and when he saw the time was for our earthly pilgrimage, voila! here we are. But feeling like we've come home when we're conversing with God should be very normal. STR, How can you possibly say that all the years you were in the two by two's that "fear" didn't control how you acted, -what you wore, -where you went, -even how you talked to other people; -in fact everything that you did?
You say it is like the "fear" that children have towards their parents: " respect, awe and love," - and "simply a desire to always please the parent" and NOT "disappoint god."
That attempt to liken adults to "children" was one of the reasons I began to see through religion, -Christianity, -the bible or whatever one wants to call it. By likening oneself to a child who is only listening to a "father" serves all kinds of benefits
Releases us of the responsibilities of a adult.
Makes us feel safe "cared for" by someone.
It is pure rationalization!
It wasn't God trying to use fear to control me, it was humans. Call it rationalization or feeling safe, but when we rationalize to the very bottom of what you atheists are c/o about "fear" used to control. It isn't God that does that, it is humans that do that. God made us to think for ourselves, to behave ourselves with one another as we should want ourselves to be treated. He didn't make us to be afraid just so somebody can control us. We are to control ourselves. But the fact is our world doesn't know much about control. But we can't blame God for the wrongs of people against people. Just look at it and know that for some odd reason people like to practice being the boss or the head goat. Jesus said about this in reviewing that the Gentiles like to use their authority over others. He went on to say that this must NOT be in his church.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 3, 2018 0:56:34 GMT -5
Btw, you have the wrong understanding of being like a child when considering yourself or anyone else in the family of God.
It's kind of like Jesus told his Apostles when he sent them out, to be wise as serpents but as harmless as a dove.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 3, 2018 3:15:34 GMT -5
STR, How can you possibly say that all the years you were in the two by two's that "fear" didn't control how you acted, -what you wore, -where you went, -even how you talked to other people; -in fact everything that you did?
You say it is like the "fear" that children have towards their parents: " respect, awe and love," - and "simply a desire to always please the parent" and NOT "disappoint god."
That attempt to liken adults to "children" was one of the reasons I began to see through religion, -Christianity, -the bible or whatever one wants to call it. By likening oneself to a child who is only listening to a "father" serves all kinds of benefits Releases us of the responsibilities of a adult. Makes us feel safe "cared for" by someone. It is pure rationalization!
It wasn't God trying to use fear to control me, it was humans. Call it rationalization or feeling safe, but when we rationalize to the very bottom of what you atheists are c/o about "fear" used to control. It isn't God that does that, it is humans that do that. God made us to think for ourselves, to behave ourselves with one another as we should want ourselves to be treated. He didn't make us to be afraid just so somebody can control us. We are to control ourselves But the fact is our world doesn't know much about control. But we can't blame Gid for the wrings of people against people. Just look at it and know that for some odd reason people like to practice being the boss or the head goat. OK. You say that it is just "humans" that try to control us, not god.
You say, "we can't blame God for the writings of people against people."
I agree.
Then why is it that you believe what the bible states which surely is the "writings of people" and often "against people?"
Do you believe there was a god who told them what to write?
Because I don't.
PS: I don't understand what you mean by this statement- "Call it rationalization or feeling safe, but when we rationalize to the very bottom of what you atheists are c/o about "fear" used to control.
??
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 3, 2018 3:34:25 GMT -5
Btw, you have the wrong understanding of being like a child when considering yourself or anyone else in the family of God. It's kind of like Jesus told his Apostles when he sent them out, to be wise as serpents but as harmless as a dove. I do understand perfectly the idea behind making people feel like a children. I have studied it in depth.
When you put people in a place where they feel like a child, -a lot of psychological factors emerge.
As to the quote, "to be wise as serpents but as harmless as a dove," - isn't in the same category as being like a child.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 3:37:02 GMT -5
This wide gulch between the dissenter and the professing family members is something that ex2x2s who still believe in God are experiencing. I would think that atheism is a 2x2s worst nightmare. Though I've heard some 2x2s say they're more happy about their anti-believer's atheism because then they aren't in some false church. They seem to think there's a better chance of the atheist to come back to the 2x2 church, for at least they haven't been polluted by "false doctrine". My parents have definitely been coping by looking me as a prodigal son who just hasn't returned yet. I really wish it was easier to talk at length about religious issues with my family and friends. But there's so much emotion involved that nobody wants to bring it up unless they're unaware or unafraid of the consequences. The situation you find yourself in is not uncommon. I had a friend who left the 2x2 system who felt that he couldn’t discuss the situation with his parents even 10 years after leaving. The only time that he attempted to talk about the situation, it swiftly became so emotionally charged that the subject was immediately dropped and never again spoken of. His parents continued to believe that he was a prodigal who would return and he would still receive invitations to missions popped through his letter box despite the fact he had long since ceased to believe in God. It used to irk me somewhat that he wouldn’t just tell them outright and bring the whole sorry charade to a close but he found it much too difficult and sought solace in the fact that allowing them to continue to believe he was a prodigal brought them some form of comfort. Everyone’s situation is different and different people respond differently. My own experience is that telling my parents up front led to a much more honest and open relationship and avoided a future awkwardly tiptoeing around the issue. However I think it’s safe to say that the 2x2s love a prodigal. A prodigal doesn’t threaten their belief system. A prodigal provides a project for the workers to work on. A prodigal provides hope for the future. A prodigal is always welcome at convention and can even be a focus of attention. A prodigal is merely classified as ‘unwilling’ which is seen as less shameful than the ‘bitter’ non believer. And of course a prodigal is always a good subject for a Sunday morning sermon as the parable is pretty straightforward. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 5:05:44 GMT -5
My parents have definitely been coping by looking me as a prodigal son who just hasn't returned yet. I really wish it was easier to talk at length about religious issues with my family and friends. But there's so much emotion involved that nobody wants to bring it up unless they're unaware or unafraid of the consequences. The situation you find yourself in is not uncommon. I had a friend who left the 2x2 system who felt that he couldn’t discuss the situation with his parents even 10 years after leaving. The only time that he attempted to talk about the situation, it swiftly became so emotionally charged that the subject was immediately dropped and never again spoken of. His parents continued to believe that he was a prodigal who would return and he would still receive invitations to missions popped through his letter box despite the fact he had long since ceased to believe in God. It used to irk me somewhat that he wouldn’t just tell them outright and bring the whole sorry charade to a close but he found it much too difficult and sought solace in the fact that allowing them to continue to believe he was a prodigal brought them some form of comfort. Everyone’s situation is different and different people respond differently. My own experience is that telling my parents up front led to a much more honest and open relationship and avoided a future awkwardly tiptoeing around the issue. However I think it’s safe to say that the 2x2s love a prodigal. A prodigal doesn’t threaten their belief system. A prodigal provides a project for the workers to work on. A prodigal provides hope for the future. A prodigal is always welcome at convention and can even be a focus of attention. A prodigal is merely classified as ‘unwilling’ which is seen as less shameful than the ‘bitter’ non believer. And of course a prodigal is always a good subject for a Sunday morning sermon as the parable is pretty straightforward. Matt10 i don't see how the "hope" of a prodigal son is such a bad thing...
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Post by intelchips on Nov 3, 2018 6:20:07 GMT -5
So which particular part of the fact that "Hades" is a being and not a place don't you understand? Well, O learned one, according to Greek mythology "Hades" is the God of the underworld, which was given his name as well. As I was speaking about the NT meaning which is an interpretation of the OT "Sheol" which is Hades as the unseen realm of the dead or the grave. Or the place of bodily decay. Or the place of the punishment of the wicked of the dead. www.blueletterbible.orgFact: When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol Fact: Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead (please note the word appears) Fact: during the Second Temple period (500 BC–70 AD) a more diverse set of ideas developed wherein Sheol was considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked Fact: The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades in Greek" (rephaim in Hebrew), entities without personality or strength Fact: this then shows the etymology of the Greek word Hades. Just because all these Greeks from History abused poor old Hades' personal name doesn't mean you need to continue to carry on in their tradition. Hades is the given name of a God or demigod if you will. But don't take my word for this. perhaps you will accept as an authority: www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Hades/hades.html I would give a quote from a textbook but you might not own any. "Hades means “The Unseen One” – a suitable name since Hades is the ruler of the invisible world. However, the Ancient Greeks rarely used this name – just like Christians rarely used the word “Hell” during the Middle Ages. So, since minerals and precious metals are found underground, they often referred to Hades euphemistically as Plouton – namely, “The Wealth-Giver.” Unsurprisingly, Hades’ Roman equivalent is called Pluto as well." So let all give respect back to old Hades and use his given name correctly and while about that maybe also pray to him for some of that gold and silver and precious stones.
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