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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 18:00:10 GMT -5
In the book of Rev. 21:4-5 where God said there will be no more tears, sorrows, pains... ALL of the past life, people, the Old earth that we know will NOT be remembered anymore. God will make EVERYTHING new He will wipe the OLD life from our minds, so it's gone or ERASE forever. There will be NO HELL, no rebellious spirits, no hatred in the NEW heaven. Everyone will live in peace and harmony with one another. Rev. 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. actually the rich man was seen from paradise/abrahams bosom not heaven they were and are two different places....and hell is forever....
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Post by jetmech on Nov 1, 2018 18:14:05 GMT -5
its where the evidence lies without regard to subjective opinions made 19 centuries later.... What one really should consider are the methods used to obtain "evidence" at the time of the NT, -word of mouth, -supernatural visions etc.
But perhaps even more important is the process they used to interpret THAT evidence.
In NT biblical days the system of analyzing & interpreting things was so totally unlike the way we do today that we can't just accept without question anything said at that time.
In those days of the bible the whole world determined the " truth" of something using different criteria than we do today!
example: there were beliefs of OTHER people "raising from the dead, -no JUST Jesus! That same criteria continued until the 18th century when we entered the Age of Enlightenment also called the Age of Reason.
That is when a set of criteria begin to be developed that could be used universally in all situations where one was seeking to know the truth of a matter.
What about a situation where the truth is strange ... stranger than fiction?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 18:26:05 GMT -5
In the book of Rev. 21:4-5 where God said there will be no more tears, sorrows, pains... ALL of the past life, people, the Old earth that we know will NOT be remembered anymore. God will make EVERYTHING new He will wipe the OLD life from our minds, so it's gone or ERASE forever. There will be NO HELL, no rebellious spirits, no hatred in the NEW heaven. Everyone will live in peace and harmony with one another. Rev. 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. here it says hell/lake of fire is for ever.... Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
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Post by jetmech on Nov 1, 2018 18:44:58 GMT -5
What one really should consider are the methods used to obtain "evidence" at the time of the NT, -word of mouth, -supernatural visions etc.
But perhaps even more important is the process they used to interpret THAT evidence.
In NT biblical days the system of analyzing & interpreting things was so totally unlike the way we do today that we can't just accept without question anything said at that time.
In those days of the bible the whole world determined the " truth" of something using different criteria than we do today!
example: there were beliefs of OTHER people "raising from the dead, -no JUST Jesus! That same criteria continued until the 18th century when we entered the Age of Enlightenment also called the Age of Reason.
That is when a set of criteria begin to be developed that could be used universally in all situations where one was seeking to know the truth of a matter.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 20:09:58 GMT -5
In the book of Rev. 21:4-5 where God said there will be no more tears, sorrows, pains... ALL of the past life, people, the Old earth that we know will NOT be remembered anymore. God will make EVERYTHING new He will wipe the OLD life from our minds, so it's gone or ERASE forever. There will be NO HELL/sufferring, no rebellious spirits, no hatred in the NEW heaven. Everyone will live in peace and harmony with one another. Rev. 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. HELL= Lake of Fire for Eternity.... The rich man/unbelievers was in Hades (below the crust/ground= inner earth), he saw Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom that WASN'T Heaven but in an UPPER level of Hades where the Old Testament SAVED believers a Temporary dwelling place or residence, waiting for Christ coming to SET them FREE from there and take ALL of them/souls back to the Father in heaven.
Luke 16 Jesus revealed where all the souls went after death. ALL souls belong to Satan and he keeps them In Hades (inner earth) there were two places ONE for the Rich man=unbelievers suffer in torments, regrets... They are staying there waiting to be judge by God in the Judgment day. The gulf was FIXED between the Unbelievers and SAVED believers in the Old Testament, Lazarus=believers stayed in Abraham's bosom where there was peace waiting for Christ's Spirit to come and rescue them after He had paid the ransom price on Calvary's Cross.
We/Christians are under the New Testament covenant... After death the Christians do NOT go to HADES like the Old Testament believers did for 4000 yrs because Jesus had NOT pay the ransom price for them, so their souls were STUCK in Hades until he paid it in full on Calvary Cross.
After Jesus had paid the ransom price in full, after death all believers go directly to be with Jesus in heaven. Jesus has set the New Testament believers FREE from going to Hades, ONLY the unbelievers will go to HADES after death waiting the rest of the Old Testament unbelievers until they all appear before God at the Judgment day= then they all be cast in the LAKE of fire forever=Eternity.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 20:50:31 GMT -5
For just one example; consider the bible story of Thomas - one of the twelve disciples ...... John 20:25 "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."Here Thomas did not believe until AFTER he had evidence. That's what most atheist say, give me some evidence and then I may believe. Most atheist don't say I'm certain there are no gods. For myself I would say I disbelieve in the god of the bible as much as I disbelieve in Leprechauns. Leprechauns may exist but until there is some evidence all we have is Leprechaun stories. What's really strange about the Thomas story is, according to the bible he already had 1st person evidence of the prior 37 miracles of Jesus! Doesn't that make this disbelief story seem a little strange? BTW he had already seen Jesus raise someone from the dead, so coming back from the dead shouldn't have been surprising to Thomas either. Don't you think most atheists if they too had seen these 37 miracles they would become believers long before seeing number 37? Think about it, the Thomas story would make more sense if the 37 Jesus miracles never happened and Thomas never saw them, or if John 20:25 was just made up, or if both were just made up. We will never know because, there is no record of any 1st hand witnesses who saw Jesus. There is no original bible, just lots of revisions, additions and deletions. We are left with many bible contradictions (see video), and no one has ever demonstrated anything supernatural, that's why atheist's say; the time to believe is after you have good evidence, not before. Childhood religious indoctrination instills deep seated fears. Most never escape these fears, and few question their church group beliefs. Christians can see this in other religions but childhood indoctrination blinds them from their own group. Few are committed to knowing what is true about what they were taught as a child. I recommend this book to better understand the psychology of belief "T he God Virus: How Religion Infects Our Lives and Culture" I'm having difficulty in understanding why there is/was "fear" for some that were raised in any church. I am not fearful actually I'm the opposite. I revel in my privilege to get to know the one true God in every facet of life. 'm not desiring in any way to be shed of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Fact is, I find the Holy Spirit a very comforting companion.
I'm most always alibet, so to feel the Holy Spirit as if he's sitting on my right shoulder where he has quick access to my inner ear. There is evidence that there is God, but he won't show himself to those who have one smidgen of doubt/unbelief. I know that from experience. I've been a wee bit doubter in the past and I never got one ounce of evidence that God is for real. It took some hard please that he would help my unbelief before anything came certain. That last statement alone indicates your struggle to try to believe something that was unbelievable. As well as the reason that it is so important to you, -because such a belief gives you comfort and eases your mind.
Sorry, -but that it is exactly how I finally realized that was what I was doing and doing it to to myself with no other entity out there at all.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 21:45:28 GMT -5
I'm having difficulty in understanding why there is/was "fear" for some that were raised in any church. Fear is a strong fundamental emotion, and Christianity uses fear a lot to control. The bible has many example of uses of fear to control. For example in this same thread nathan quoted this verse with fear. Proverbs 1:7 Says " ... The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.
Fear of going to hell is what you need saved from. If you removed fear, hell and damnation you could improve Christianity. JMT. All the years I was in the two by two church, the word "fear" in relation to God doesn't mean a fear to control. It is a "fear" of respect, awe and love. The exact fear that young children have towards their parents. That fear is simply a desire to always please the parent. And yes I know that many parents do put real fear in their children by being abusive toward them. That's why it says that we are to be like children in the family of God. Looking to him for not only mercy and love, but for teaching us and guiding us and even guarding us to make sure we are safe in his care. Am I afraid of God? Not really, I don't want to have him be disappointed in me. But I know I can go to him with whatever is going on in me or around me. I know that some adults in the two by two have gone overboard in using fear as a control over those whom they've had jurisdiction of. Teaching fear as in terror in trying to make them very and do what "they think" is God's will. I feel that when we're in sincerity in our relationship with God, we should feel a familiar spirit between us and God. Why? He created us, before the world ever became and when he saw the time was for our earthly pilgrimage, voila! here we are. But feeling like we've come home when we're conversing with God should be very normal.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 21:57:29 GMT -5
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. actually the rich man was seen from paradise/abrahams bosom not heaven they were and are two different places....and hell is forever.... Actually, Wally, hell gets more hellatious. Just Before the new heaven and Earth arrive and the old fold up and fly away.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 22:09:10 GMT -5
*** It wasn't God who called people are fools but the people of God who wrote and said it and they are correct. The unbelievers don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND the wonderful things He has prepared for them to ENJOY for eternity. Christ, one of the Creators of the Universe came down from heaven to give us eternal life but many people don't believe in such a gift exists... That is NOT smart don't you think? There is nothing wonderful about sitting in heaven and having a front row seat to watch the others suffering for eternity in hell. That would be hell for me. As some of those in hell may well be our most beloved, it would be hell to watch them across the "fixed gulf". But that's not going to happen like that. Those in heaven will have all sorrows wiped away. There won't be any one watching those in hell. There won't be any need or want of such things. Since the ikd earth and heaven will be disposed of,bhell or the graves in earth won't be either. There's provisions for those who fail their interview with the righteous Judge
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 22:40:35 GMT -5
There is nothing wonderful about sitting in heaven and having a front row seat to watch the others suffering for eternity in hell. That would be hell for me. As some of those in hell may well be our most beloved, it would be hell to watch them across the "fixed gulf". But that's not going to happen like that. Those in heaven will have all sorrows wiped away. There won't be any one watching those in hell. There won't be any need or want of such things. Since the ikd earth and heaven will be disposed of, bhell or the graves in earth won't be either. There's provisions for those who fail their interview with the righteous Judge ikd ? bhell?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 2, 2018 0:31:49 GMT -5
What one really should consider are the methods used to obtain "evidence" at the time of the NT, -word of mouth, -supernatural visions etc.
But perhaps even more important is the process they used to interpret THAT evidence.
In NT biblical days the system of analyzing & interpreting things was so totally unlike the way we do today that we can't just accept without question anything said at that time.
In those days of the bible the whole world determined the " truth" of something using different criteria than we do today!
example: there were beliefs of OTHER people "raising from the dead, -no JUST Jesus! That same criteria continued until the 18th century when we entered the Age of Enlightenment also called the Age of Reason.
That is when a set of criteria begin to be developed that could be used universally in all situations where one was seeking to know the truth of a matter.
What about a situation where the truth is strange ... stranger than fiction? What you do is to search for the truth. First thing you do is check with your own reality. Does it make any sense to you?
Then you take a really good look at WHO is claiming it. Are they reliable? Do you know who they are? People say all kinds of things!
Check their credentials. Have they any background that tells you whether they can be reliable?
If a person believes even one person's irrational idea of something that is based on any paranormal or supernatural explanation at all;, -be it that this vitamin will make you feel like you are 21 again, -claim there really are werewolves, -vampires, -creepy things that "bump in the night," -they are more likely to be influenced by some other irrational idea that happens to come down the pike The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry is a program within the transnational American non-profit educational organization Center for Inquiry (CFI), which seeks to "promote scientific inquiry, critical investigation, and the use of reason in examining controversial and extraordinary claims."
They are a good place to start. They also publish a bi-monthly magazines on some of their findings.
It is easy to believe something, -especially if it happens to be something that we would like to believe. Companies that sell stuff use that tactic all the time!
Just recently CFI took down a claim of a recent company that stated their program could reverse memory loss. It wasn't a fly-by-nite company either, -it was well known company.
So, you just have to use some rational, critical thinking and dig for details
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 10:15:12 GMT -5
As some of those in hell may well be our most beloved, it would be hell to watch them across the "fixed gulf". But that's not going to happen like that. Those in heaven will have all sorrows wiped away. There won't be any one watching those in hell. There won't be any need or want of such things. Since the ikd earth and heaven will be disposed of, bhell or the graves in earth won't be either. There's provisions for those who fail their interview with the righteous Judge ikd ? bhell?Old and hell
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 2, 2018 10:20:59 GMT -5
Just because the Bible doesn't make sense to some, that doesn't mean it won't make sense for others.
I've tried to tell you that God will not reveal himself or his business to those who are skeptical OR unable to understand what is right before them.
One can dig all day and never get to the bottom of the hole. Whereas others can dig a wee hour and the bottom is right before them.
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Post by xna on Nov 2, 2018 11:21:15 GMT -5
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timber
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Post by timber on Nov 2, 2018 11:51:33 GMT -5
I am curious those of you who are atheists - what facts are you requiring that would convince you to believe in God? Thanks in advance.
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Post by xna on Nov 2, 2018 12:38:46 GMT -5
I am curious those of you who are atheists - what facts are you requiring that would convince you to believe in God? Thanks in advance. If a god exists, he would know what that would be for each person?
If this god was all willing and all able, all could be convinced of his existence. As Carl Sagan said; " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and the bible makes a lot of extraordinary claims. What it takes for an individual to believe in a god could be different for each. It seems clear to me that you can not willfully believe or predict what will change your mind on something you don’t already believe, as belief is an outcome of being convinced.
Those that say they believe in god but don’t are hypocrites. When one no longer believes they have to decide if they want to tell the truth, or fit in. Most of the atheists ex-2x2 here, lost their belief after serious consideration of the matter and chose not to live as hypocrites. Some people are more skeptical than others and require more verification. Some are more gullible and taken in by false claims. For example some could watch a magician and believe they had a supernatural force. Others might conclude that while they have no explanation based on what they observed they don’t believe it’s magic at work. For myself, I don’t know for sure but I suspect if I had seen the 37 miracles of Jesus in the bible I would believe, but there would still remain the immoral acts of god which I would need a lot of explanations in order to worship such a god.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 2, 2018 13:16:35 GMT -5
I am curious those of you who are atheists - what facts are you requiring that would convince you to believe in God? Thanks in advance. The possibility that there is a god that created this earth has not crossed my mind for a number of years now. I am totally certain that the science I read about how stars and planets and other terrestrial bodies were formed is correct. More is being discovered about the processes that took place and are taking place. Not only do I read about it, I can see the evidence in my travels in mountains, caves, forests and rivers. Today I wonder at how foolish I was to believe the "Goatherders Guide to the Galaxy". I feel sorry for those that still do. Since believing science explanations for how the solar system came to be I no longer even own a bible. It has become a quaint irrelevance that many people still argue whether a verse means this or that or who wrote parts of it. We see that on here every day where people continue to argue their point. Scientists argue also. We see how they do this in papers that are published. To be published a paper has to be peer reviewed. Sometimes a paper is withdrawn after awhile as it is discredited for some reason. That is not often as it is such a rigorous process. So, Timber, I am not requiring anything of you as you cannot provide any facts.
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timber
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Post by timber on Nov 2, 2018 13:30:09 GMT -5
just curious as to where you are coming from curylywurlysammagee. thanks.
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jigpeter
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Hinga dinga durgan
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Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2018 14:56:31 GMT -5
Well, now you have! I professed, was baptized, and came to regret it. There are many, many more like me. It's common for us to be dismissed as insincere people who were never True Christians™. But I suspect those who dismiss us are the insincere ones, and mainly doing it to reaffirm their own beliefs -- not because they have found any good reasons for doing so, and certainly not because they are interested in an enlightening, productive discussion. I suspect that your reluctance or sorry is more about the church then God t it at least it was at the beginning of your sorrow of being made a functioning member of this church. I'm not sure what you mean, but my regret for leaving has never been strong (I don't feel like I was damaged as a person, luckily), and it has always been about the fact that I haven't found adequate reason to believe even the most fundamental claims of Christianity. My main "sorrow" is that many others, including my loved ones, don't see anywhere close to eye-to-eye with me now. We just don't talk about religion, even though it's the basis for many of the decisions they make.
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2018 15:10:30 GMT -5
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos. actually the rich man was seen from paradise/abrahams bosom not heaven they were and are two different places....and hell is forever.... Where was Abraham? I thought there is only heaven and hell? You don't believe in purgatory and limbo like the RCC do you?
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2018 15:34:47 GMT -5
There is nothing wonderful about sitting in heaven and having a front row seat to watch the others suffering for eternity in hell. That would be hell for me. As some of those in hell may well be our most beloved, it would be hell to watch them across the "fixed gulf". But that's not going to happen like that. Those in heaven will have all sorrows wiped away. There won't be any one watching those in hell. There won't be any need or want of such things. Since the ikd earth and heaven will be disposed of,bhell or the graves in earth won't be either. There's provisions for those who fail their interview with the righteous Judge Then why does it say that they could see the rich man? Some say they weren't in heaven. I thought there were only two places you can be, heaven or hell, or do you believe in purgatory and limbo (now not relevant as they cancelled limbo) like the RCC?
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Post by nathan on Nov 2, 2018 16:03:25 GMT -5
actually the rich man was seen from paradise/abrahams bosom not heaven they were and are two different places....and hell is forever.... Where was Abraham? I thought there is only heaven and hell? You don't believe in purgatory and limbo like the RCC do you? *** After death Abrham's soul went to HADES the inner earth to be with the rest of Old Test. Believers (Adam, Eve, Noah, Isaac and so on). They all stayed on upper fixed gulf Abram's Bosom, waiting for Christ to rescue them. Heaven door was closed to Fallen men and women and old test. Believers until Jesus pay the ransom price on Calvary.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 16:22:13 GMT -5
actually the rich man was seen from paradise/abrahams bosom not heaven they were and are two different places....and hell is forever.... Where was Abraham? I thought there is only heaven and hell? You don't believe in purgatory and limbo like the RCC do you? there were three supernatural places in the OT hell and the adjacent paradise/abrahams bosom and heaven....
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2018 16:31:02 GMT -5
Where was Abraham? I thought there is only heaven and hell? You don't believe in purgatory and limbo like the RCC do you? *** After death Abrham's soul went to HADES the inner earth to be with the rest of Old Test. Believers (Adam, Eve, Noah, Isaac and so on). They all stayed on upper fixed gulf Abram's Bosom, waiting for Christ to rescue them. Heaven door was closed to Fallen men and women and old test. Believers until Jesus pay the ransom price on Calvary. So basically everyone went to hell. Interesting. Where in the bible does it actually say there was more places than heaven or hell or that there were layers to hell? I don't remember ever reading that.
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2018 16:33:26 GMT -5
Where was Abraham? I thought there is only heaven and hell? You don't believe in purgatory and limbo like the RCC do you? there were three supernatural places in the OT hell and the adjacent paradise/abrahams bosom and heaven.... I don't remember ever reading that. Do you know where it says that? I was always under the impression that hell was hell and heaven was heaven and there weren't any other places, or even levels within either heaven or hell. I know the RCC have different places you can go and Muslims do have different degrees of hell in their teachings, but I wasn't aware that the Jews had a teaching like that. In fact, I'm not aware that the Hebrews had a hell as we know it in modern day Christianity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 16:38:23 GMT -5
there were three supernatural places in the OT hell and the adjacent paradise/abrahams bosom and heaven.... I don't remember ever reading that. Do you know where it says that? I was always under the impression that hell was hell and heaven was heaven and there weren't any other places, or even levels within either heaven or hell. I know the RCC have different places you can go and Muslims do have different degrees of hell in their teachings, but I wasn't aware that the Jews had a teaching like that. In fact, I'm not aware that the Hebrews had a hell as we know it in modern day Christianity. all we have is the story of the rich man and lazarus speaking of abrahams bosom and then also Jesus saying the word paradise on the cross NOT heaven....there is also the suggestion Jesus went into the earth and freed the captives(those in paradise)...
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2018 16:52:39 GMT -5
I don't remember ever reading that. Do you know where it says that? I was always under the impression that hell was hell and heaven was heaven and there weren't any other places, or even levels within either heaven or hell. I know the RCC have different places you can go and Muslims do have different degrees of hell in their teachings, but I wasn't aware that the Jews had a teaching like that. In fact, I'm not aware that the Hebrews had a hell as we know it in modern day Christianity. all we have is the story of the rich man and lazarus speaking of abrahams bosom and then also Jesus saying the word paradise on the cross NOT heaven....there is also the suggestion Jesus went into the earth and freed the captives(those in paradise)... So we don't know that Abraham's bosom wasn't heaven and also that Paradise wasn't heaven? We are just presuming that?
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Post by xna on Nov 2, 2018 16:53:12 GMT -5
It's unbelieveable to me how someone can even be brave enough to denounce GOD .... how far is it to this " blasphemy allegations have led to murders and mob lynchings, with at least 74 people killed in such violence since 1990" Today in Pakistan news: Blasphemy protests called off after government deal. "Bibi had been on death row for eight years following her arrest in the central Pakistani village of Ithan Wali over an argument with two Muslim women, who refused to drink water from the same vessel as her due to her religion.
The women accused her of having insulted Islam's Prophet Muhammad during the altercation, a charge Bibi has consistently denied."
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