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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2017 2:28:16 GMT -5
All churches can go off track, including the one I attend and one of which you are a minister. I don't believe for a minute that all the churches in Ireland in the late 1800's were in religious darkness at all. Some may well have been but if you want to start a new movement it's easy to whip up people's emotions to make them believe that the church they are in is polluted and lifeless. So a group of men started a new movement which was great - they sought to get back to basics. No-one has a problem with that - new churches are regularly planted for that reason. But within 5 years they had declared that their church was the only right one on earth. As a result of this perilous departure from truth the 2x2 church increasingly became gripped in religious darkness and polluted over time. It can easily happen. Examples include - the Living Witness Doctrine (later denounced as heretical by the worker who started preaching it), departure from Jesus being part of the Godhead, focus on the humanity of Christ as opposed to His divinity, no teaching on justification or grace, establishment of companies, trusts, registered business names, establishment of hierarchies with no accountability/transparency, no financial controls, Child Sexual Abuse handled not only poorly but criminally, no assurance of salvation in this life etc. And as the 2x2 church became polluted and in religious darkness, people started leaving in droves for fellowships where the focus was on Christ alone. They will continue to leave in droves until things change. But history tells us that churches are the most difficult organisations on earth to change - particularly global or national churches. Don't you see the cycle? Churches have been going through these cycles since Christ ascended. I'm sure it's God's way of reminding us where our trust should be - in Christ alone. Like a number of churches who refuse to remove wrong teaching and pollution that has crept in, they start to decline and eventually die. Your post doesn't reflect what I observe, experience and feel amongst the lively Christians I am living amongst and enjoying deep satisfying fellowship with. But your view is in line with the malignant and critical attitude you have towards our church. Perhaps you are correctly stating what is happening amongst those you are with? I have no idea. We still work with those who have found no life or Christ in the churches and sing a song of deliverance in what they have found. They don't incidentally give much thought to the old, they are so taken up with the new, with the life, with the Christ they never had previously. They could spend many hours posting critical, even false posts on a forum about their old church, but they are so happy and satisfied with the new that they don't have the interest to dwell on the old. All glory must go to God alone for this. @review005 when did you last have someone profess who didn't have any connection to the 2x2 church ? When did you last have someone profess that had left another church ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2017 4:08:27 GMT -5
Roselyn & Ross you are both filled with contempt and criticism for our church. Then you have the audacity to demand answers to your loaded questions. Do you not realise we can see right through you? You stated that people have left "other churches" and come to meetings and are so happy, so back up your statement @review005. Sure people left other churches in the early days but now ? You keep denying that the numbers are in fact dwindling in your church, you only have to look at the size of Special Meetings & Conventions to see what is happening.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2017 5:53:00 GMT -5
You stated that people have left "other churches" and come to meetings and are so happy, so back up your statement @review005 . Sure people left other churches in the early days but now ? You keep denying that the numbers are in fact dwindling in your church, you only have to look at the size of Special Meetings & Conventions to see what is happening. If you don't believe that we have people who have been disappointed in other churches and have found life and Christ in our fellowship then don't! It doesn't worry me in the least! Also mock and criticise and disbelieve that such people attend gospel meetings presently.What they tell is the same as those 100 years ago told. You never want to know anything positive about our church; you condemn and criticise it at every turn that you can. In some perverse manner it seems to occupy, amuse and please you! But what a negative existence! So why didn't you just answer the first time @review005 ! There may well be people attending Gospel Meetings from other churches, BUT compared to the early years the percentage would be very very small. Can there be anything positive about a church that thinks it is the "Only Right Way/Church" ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2017 6:17:00 GMT -5
Roselyn & Ross you are both filled with contempt and criticism for our church. Then you have the audacity to demand answers to your loaded questions. Do you not realise we can see right through you? Ross surely exposing false posts and false doctrine of yours is reason enough? It's surely better than yours of making false posts about others and promoting erroneous doctrine? review005 , Why can't you just answer her question? "When DID you last have someone profess who didn't have any connection to the 2x2 church ? When did you last have someone profess that had left another church ?"
Instead you beat around the bush and not answering and instead accuse others of making "false" posts?
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Post by joanna on Jul 11, 2017 6:28:49 GMT -5
@ Involvement in Christian churches is on a gradual decline as previously mentioned by swarupa in the 'did someone ...offend you' thread. Therefore the decline in 2x2 numbers conforms to the general pattern. The outlier is Islam so for those of you who place emphasis on the number of followers a religion attracts: your cup must o'er flow with admiration for the Islamic belief. It is growing exponentially. @the historicity of Christianity has been repeatedly undermined. This forum is a reliable source of absurd and inconsistent behaviours, one of which is the exaggeration of the relevance of the 2x2 origins by people who Believe in prayer, the supernatural and extraordinary events and miracles and tell of their ongoing and real relationship with a god yet Despite failing to prove these claims dismiss the equally unevidenced assertions of the workers. Hypothesis: each and everyone of your claims is untrue. The below video is one of many sources, representing the research of multiple scholars, which inform that the bible is unreliable. The lack of biblical authenticity is just one aspect which negates the validity of Christianity. CKropp could save herself such a lot of time and effort if only she would adopt another focus. ( Cherie Kropp / Walker have let me know they have blocked me and do not read my comments hence it is futile tagging them). The flaws in the telling of Jesus' genealogy and other biblical inconsistencies and absence of evidence (one example is found at approx 2.00m in the below video) are highly significant. What in heaven's name would cause a Christian to remain fixed on one minor Christian sect and forego the easy opportunity to prove or disprove the historical claims of the foundations of their Christian belief. Could it be a fear of being exposed to content which would unsettle their status quo? And Could 'status' be the operative word in this inquiry? Reading of the constant and current bitter quibbling between an alleged worker (consensus indicates this is their role) @review005 and an ex 2x2 born again and again Christian Ross.Bowden is entertaining if you anaesthetise your brain to the fact that their interactions exemplify one of the worst impacts of religiosity. An impact resulting from : I'm right and you are wrong but neither of us can prove why this is the case.... for god's sake just believe it One of the outstanding lines of recent times was RossBowden's Such a versatile and industrious god who uses all the resources he can, even the naughty peoples and Ross, being his right hand man, is one who knows the mind of god. This portrayal of humility is so bumbling humbling.
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Post by nathan on Jul 11, 2017 7:39:11 GMT -5
So you not a living witness then? I am very happy to testify to others about the life that Christ brings and for His light to shine in me. However, I am not a Living Witness in the sense of the Living Witness Doctrine - never have been and never will be. It is a completely perverted gospel. Christ is the only true LIVING WITNESS that there has ever been on earth and ever will be. He has revealed the Father to us and there is no other name under heaven or earth by which we are saved (Acts 4). He is the giver of life. Words and beliefs are important - they can easily be skewed. There is no greater skew than someone trying to suggest that a sinful human being can somehow beget life. I hope you would rail against that as I have. It is similar to the RCC suggesting that Catholic Priests can absolve sin. They can't. It is a doctrine in similar vein to the LWD which must also be railed against. You can see how the RCC craftily twists Scripture to state that Jesus gave His Priests this power. www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-can-a-priest-forgive-sinLikewise, the 2x2 ministers use words all the time to infer and state that eternal life can only be received through their workers. Mrs Weymouth, in the earliest know 2x2 exit letter (posted on TTT last year) is incredibly accurate (based on Scripture) in her rejection of this teaching. www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_exit/let_concern.php#Weymouth
It's Christ who wants His servants and disciples to be His Living Witnesses, as Lights and Salt in this dark world UNTIL his returns, READ Jesus own words in Acts 1:8. God wants the LIVING to HELP the LIVING, so we can have fellowship with one another and with God. It's Christ who forgives Sins NOT the LIVING Witnesses. They just pass on the message of Salvation, which is to believe in Jesus as the Savior NOT themselves.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 11, 2017 11:34:48 GMT -5
If you don't believe that we have people who have been disappointed in other churches and have found life and Christ in our fellowship then don't! It doesn't worry me in the least! Likewise, it is also the case that there are "people who have been disappointed in" the 2x2 Church "and have found life and Christ in" other Christian churches. Does that not worry you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 12:18:31 GMT -5
Review 005, if you plan to visit any Eastern US conventions, let us know. I would love to hear how you preach.
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Post by Grant on Jul 11, 2017 15:20:20 GMT -5
Obviously there are a lot of things to criticise about your church or people wouldn't be talking about them.
Saying that people don't criticise the churches they came from. The workers are known to preach against churches. That is one of the things that was noticeable about their preaching.
There are very few people still alive in meetings who have come out from other churches. Nearly everyone has grown up in the group, unless they are brought by someone wanting to marry a professing person.
How many people, review, have professed in your meetings in the last 5 years who have come from outside with no previous contact with meetings.
To reword, 1. how many complete strangers as you call them, have come to meetings and professed in the last 5 years. Not talking about those who want to marry a professing person.
2. How many came from another church?
Instead of telling people to leave your church and go where they are happy, Wouldn't it be better to take note of the things people are not happy about and make an effort to correct these things. Put right some of the wrongs.
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2017 15:20:47 GMT -5
Snow, Your opinion being that nothing is from God and my experience is that there definitely are things from God. So as what I write makes no sense to you with respect what you write sometimes means little to me. Yes I'm sure that's true! When I dealt with my parents I tried to do things based on what I knew they believed, not on what I believed. Their 'reality' was not a shared reality. We were worlds apart in beliefs but we still loved each other and when I became an adult they did try to be accommodating of my beliefs and I tried to respect their's.
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2017 15:36:02 GMT -5
It doesn't worry me one iota what you say about me so please move on from all the childish personal rubbish. What matters is the facts. Given that you believe that your church was started by a group of men, who specifically were they? Given that in the very early years the first workers freely talked about their conversion to Christ in their previous church your statement about "no spiritual life, no Christ there..." is incorrect. That development (and complete heresy) occurred from 1904/5 onwards as their anti-clerical rants escalated ultimately resulting in John Long leaving. The anti-clerical/church rants continue to this day - you've demonstrated that once more in your posts. Haven't workers learned their lesson yet? RossB, you need to read Jesus rants on anti-Pharisee in Matthew 23..... Jesus gave them both barrels!
John Long had to leave/excommunicated because he was sending his 2x2 converts back to Babylon.... Most of the early workers and the friends came out of Babylon religious/denomination confusion themselves and they did NOT want to see any of their own worker sending his/her converts back to the HELL hole again.
There is no worker today that I know of sending his/her 2x2 converts to join the church of their choice after they converted to the 2x2 fellowship. He or she would be excommunicated from the ministry just like they did to John Long in 1907.
Isn't that exactly what Review005 is suggesting to anyone who says one thing against the Truth? I see anyone who disagrees with any thing within the Truth gets the same song and dance about how they might be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole or maybe you'd be happier in a different church etc. He certainly doesn't seem to feel any need to keep them and I find that odd. Given the 2x2's belief that you can't be saved unless you are in the Truth, isn't he sending them to their doom? That's why I see excommunication as so horrific given these beliefs. The workers believe that their members are in the only true way and their very salvation depends on being in the Truth. So when they excommunicate them they are in a very real sense 'damning them to hell' knowingly. Based on what they believe. Is that a decision or judgment that a human can make? It sounds cold and mean based on what they believe.
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2017 16:00:31 GMT -5
@ Involvement in Christian churches is on a gradual decline as previously mentioned by swarupa in the 'did someone ...offend you' thread. Therefore the decline in 2x2 numbers conforms to the general pattern. The outlier is Islam so for those of you who place emphasis on the number of followers a religion attracts: your cup must o'er flow with admiration for the Islamic belief. It is growing exponentially. @the historicity of Christianity has been repeatedly undermined. This forum is a reliable source of absurd and inconsistent behaviours, one of which is the exaggeration of the relevance of the 2x2 origins by people who Believe in prayer, the supernatural and extraordinary events and miracles and tell of their ongoing and real relationship with a god yet Despite failing to prove these claims dismiss the equally unevidenced assertions of the workers. Hypothesis: each and everyone of your claims is untrue. The below video is one of many sources, representing the research of multiple scholars, which inform that the bible is unreliable. The lack of biblical authenticity is just one aspect which negates the validity of Christianity. CKropp could save herself such a lot of time and effort if only she would adopt another focus. ( Cherie Kropp / Walker have let me know they have blocked me and do not read my comments hence it is futile tagging them). The flaws in the telling of Jesus' genealogy and other biblical inconsistencies and absence of evidence (one example is found at approx 2.00m in the below video) are highly significant. What in heaven's name would cause a Christian to remain fixed on one minor Christian sect and forego the easy opportunity to prove or disprove the historical claims of the foundations of their Christian belief. Could it be a fear of being exposed to content which would unsettle their status quo? And Could 'status' be the operative word in this inquiry? Reading of the constant and current bitter quibbling between an alleged worker (consensus indicates this is their role) @review005 and an ex 2x2 born again and again Christian Ross.Bowden is entertaining if you anaesthetise your brain to the fact that their interactions exemplify one of the worst impacts of religiosity. An impact resulting from : I'm right and you are wrong but neither of us can prove why this is the case.... for god's sake just believe it One of the outstanding lines of recent times was RossBowden's Such a versatile and industrious god who uses all the resources he can, even the naughty peoples and Ross, being his right hand man, is one who knows the mind of god. This portrayal of humility is so bumbling humbling. It's a pity that you can't round up all the Christians and get rid of them...and send all those other religious people you dislike almost as much to the same place. Then you'd be able to live in a perfect world where everyone would think and act completely rationally like you. You could make all kinds of statements without producing evidence to back them up and there would be none of these believers around to challenge you. I won't bother watching the video until you produce the evidence of your statement about the 2x2 church. I suspect I might never have to watch it! RossB what's wrong with living in a world that backs up reality with evidence? Joanna doesn't come across to me as wanting to get rid of anyone. She does wish people didn't fall for things that are impossible in our world but I am pretty sure she doesn't want to get rid of anyone. All religion is the same in that you have to believe in things that are not believable. It also seems that it's pretty important to be worshiping the 'right' god in the right way. This is divisive and causes all kinds of unpleasantness, as we see between two Christians with differing interpretations of a few verses in the bible. No one can prove there is a God in the first place and yet people will argue endlessly that their God is the right God and their way is the right way to worship that God. She likely just wishes people would see the irony and put their energy into something more important like learning the truth about the world we live in for example. Arguing over how to serve a mythical being such as a God seems like a waste of energy to me. I know you disagree with me, obviously. But looking at it from a different perspective is always interesting don't you think?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 11, 2017 16:06:05 GMT -5
Rev, you made an assumption about my earlier statement. Abraham wandered with God...wherever God led him. He didn't go from church to church. Neither do I change from church to church or denomination to denomination. Occasionally I visit a church--mostly when I am visiting family or friends who invite me to go with them. Actually, its been so long since I attended a church that I cant even remember when or where it was. On Sunday mornings in our home, my husband and I have a private devotion time. Just the two of us with God. We are quite content and at peace with this method. I have not attended any church regularly since 1993, and I attended that church for two years, and my children were baptized there. So I hardly qualify as a "rolling stone" or church shopper. And since you mentioned them, here are some Exit Letters on TLC:
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2017 16:10:34 GMT -5
Isn't that exactly what Review005 is suggesting to anyone who says one thing against the Truth? I see anyone who disagrees with any thing within the Truth gets the same song and dance about how they might be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole or maybe you'd be happier in a different church etc. He certainly doesn't seem to feel any need to keep them and I find that odd. Given the 2x2's belief that you can't be saved unless you are in the Truth, isn't he sending them to their doom? That's why I see excommunication as so horrific given these beliefs. The workers believe that their members are in the only true way and their very salvation depends on being in the Truth. So when they excommunicate them they are in a very real sense 'damning them to hell' knowingly. Based on what they believe. Is that a decision or judgment that a human can make? It sounds cold and mean based on what they believe. Snow you are correct. If someone does not agree with our doctrine and practices then eventually the time comes when it is better they leave and go somewhere where they can agree with the church's doctrine and practices. If you find that cold and mean so be it! I find your opinion and perspective quite unusual. You so authoritatively state what workers believe and don't believe! I just smile! That is your opinion and perspective and you are entitled to it. That's me, very authoritative. It's not how I see myself but then ... However, if you do think that leaving the group dooms people to hell, isn't excommunication presumptuous and mean and cold? I mean we are talking about torture for eternity here. Using warm fuzzy words to describe dooming someone to hell really shouldn't be an option should it? And yes, I am entitled to my opinions as are you. Just wondering what a person could actually do that was so bad that they could be excommunicated. I would think workers should be focused on keeping them in the Truth not just merrily waving goodbye when they say anything that might be deemed a criticism. Some things need to be addressed in your church, like any organization, so when people say things that they think could be done better then why not listen to them, thank them, but not tell them to leave if everything isn't 100% to their liking. I have seen many people here that are professing that are happy professing but have a few concerns. But their concerns are turned back on them and they are told to go. I find that sad I guess.
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2017 16:23:43 GMT -5
That's me, very authoritative. It's not how I see myself but then ... However, if you do think that leaving the group dooms people to hell, isn't excommunication presumptuous and mean and cold? I mean we are talking about torture for eternity here. Using warm fuzzy words to describe dooming someone to hell really shouldn't be an option should it? And yes, I am entitled to my opinions as are you. Just wondering what a person could actually do that was so bad that they could be excommunicated. I would think workers should be focused on keeping them in the Truth not just merrily waving goodbye when they say anything that might be deemed a criticism. Some things need to be addressed in your church, like any organization, so when people say things that they think could be done better then why not listen to them, thank them, but not tell them to leave if everything isn't 100% to their liking. I have seen many people here that are professing that are happy professing but have a few concerns. But their concerns are turned back on them and they are told to go. I find that sad I guess. snow you seem to be all confused? I haven't spoken of ex communication at all. No you haven't. But we do know that it happens in your church and my question was about the morality of it because of the supposed seriousness of leaving and eternal damnation. So it's a general question based on the fact that there have been people expelled from the Truth and others that have been shunned or made to feel like an outsider to the extent that they have left. There have been those also. But the question is an important one. How can anyone excommunicate anyone knowing the ultimate repercussions of such a thing? Don't you feel it's a good question? Based on beliefs it's a serious one to consider isn't it?
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Post by Grant on Jul 11, 2017 16:31:32 GMT -5
Obviously there are a lot of things to criticise about your church or people wouldn't be talking about them. Saying that people don't criticise the churches they came from. The workers are known to preach against churches. That is one of the things that was noticeable about their preaching. There are very few people still alive in meetings who have come out from other churches. Nearly everyone has grown up in the group, unless they are brought by someone wanting to marry a professing person. How many people, review, have professed in your meetings in the last 5 years who have come from outside with no previous contact with meetings. To reword, 1. how many complete strangers as you call them, have come to meetings and professed in the last 5 years. Not talking about those who want to marry a professing person. 2. How many came from another church? Enuf you ask me a question but give the answer that is acceptable to you within the same post! So are SO CORRECT you have found a lot of things to criticise our church about, you do it in every post. 1837 post denigrating your old church 0 posts telling of your new life and salvation:P All I see in your posts is our criticism, condemnation and bitterness about the church you left. Tell us of your new church, your new life and joy. Dwell on and post about the positive in your new and better life for a change! Your experience is so different from those who have come out of the deadness of various churches and found Christ and life in our fellowship! Again you fail to answer questions but just attack the poster. I have frequently posted about scripture. No bitterness just concern that you attack and ignore issues which people post by telling them to leave rather than taking their concerns seriously. Denial of the issues and attacking people who raise them does nothing to fix the problems in your church. This is a board to discuss the 2x2s which is what we are doing. Do you wonder why you are not getting new people into meetings or does it not concern you? It doesn't concern me but when you say you have these people coming from other churches I feel to challenge this and ask for the proof. If you are talking about the early days then say so. Not that I've read that they came out due to the deadness of other churches but it is something you are saying. Of course there are pastors in other churches who are just like you, attack the messenger, and bury their head in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong.
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Post by nathan on Jul 11, 2017 17:19:36 GMT -5
RossB, you need to read Jesus rants on anti-Pharisee in Matthew 23..... Jesus gave them both barrels!
John Long had to leave/excommunicated because he was sending his 2x2 converts back to Babylon.... Most of the early workers and the friends came out of Babylon religious/denomination confusion themselves and they did NOT want to see any of their own worker sending his/her converts back to the HELL hole again.
There is no worker today that I know of sending his/her 2x2 converts to join the church of their choice after they converted to the 2x2 fellowship. He or she would be excommunicated from the ministry just like they did to John Long in 1907.
Isn't that exactly what Review005 is suggesting to anyone who says one thing against the Truth? I see anyone who disagrees with any thing within the Truth gets the same song and dance about how they might be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole or maybe you'd be happier in a different church etc. He certainly doesn't seem to feel any need to keep them and I find that odd. Given the 2x2's belief that you can't be saved unless you are in the Truth, isn't he sending them to their doom? That's why I see excommunication as so horrific given these beliefs. The workers believe that their members are in the only true way and their very salvation depends on being in the Truth. So when they excommunicate them they are in a very real sense 'damning them to hell' knowingly. Based on what they believe. Is that a decision or judgment that a human can make? It sounds cold and mean based on what they believe.
Excommunication is like cancer, it has to be cut off or the cancer spreads throughout the whole body. Just like in Acts chapter 5 with Ananias and Sapphira, who lied to the Holy Spirit.... and both died on the spot, it was a warning to others ...... God KNOWS and SEES everything, we can hide/lie to people but NOT from Him.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 11, 2017 18:57:22 GMT -5
I am aware of one with no previous connections to the church, who has professed this year after attending for some time. He seems a nice bloke and has also recently married the widow of a man who had major heart issues which eventually took him. It has all worked out well, and we are happy for them.
Something I would like to see in our church is a web site. This would cover logistics (where the missions are, what time etc) and be Google ranked for search criteria. It would also remove the "Secret" part that many perceive, and enable those searching for something different from the orthodox churches an answer. Operating in the belief that every querying person gets a visit or is brought into touch with the friends or workers is the stuff of fairyland.
At some point the issue of a bank account for donations is going to have to be addressed as we move progressively to a cashless society. This could be on the same web-site. It would not be regarded as soliciting for money, but simply acknowledging the world we live in.
I see other changes needed to reverse the decline in numbers, but these can wait for another day.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 20:41:05 GMT -5
Obviously there are a lot of things to criticise about your church or people wouldn't be talking about them. Saying that people don't criticise the churches they came from. The workers are known to preach against churches. That is one of the things that was noticeable about their preaching. There are very few people still alive in meetings who have come out from other churches. Nearly everyone has grown up in the group, unless they are brought by someone wanting to marry a professing person. How many people, review, have professed in your meetings in the last 5 years who have come from outside with no previous contact with meetings. To reword, 1. how many complete strangers as you call them, have come to meetings and professed in the last 5 years. Not talking about those who want to marry a professing person. 2. How many came from another church? Instead of telling people to leave your church and go where they are happy, Wouldn't it be better to take note of the things people are not happy about and make an effort to correct these things. Put right some of the wrongs. i wonder was the lost sheep the shepard left the 99 to search for a stranger or had a connection to the flock? i wonder was the prodigal son a stranger or or had a connection to the flock?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2017 21:20:33 GMT -5
Likewise, it is also the case that there are "people who have been disappointed in" the 2x2 Church "and have found life and Christ in" other Christian churches. Does that not worry you? Interesting point you have made Cherie; thank you!No it does not worry me. Salvation is an individual matter, if they find Christ in another church then that is the right decision for them. I find it very revealing that people like; you? Ros, enuf, pragmatic, Ross and oh, many others who post on this forum find it so galling and difficult to accept that people leave other churches and come to us. Those that did not have had spiritual life or find Christ there; they came to Gospel meetings and their testimony is of finding Christ, getting a spiritual life and having a Christian life and fellowship that they never had previously. Then you have people like yourself and you'll know of plenty of others (you encourage them to send you their exit letters). They are unhappy in being part of our church and some of them then join another church. Or some are 'rolling stones' like you going from one church to another. You posted one time of yourself being like Abraham; a wanderer. Others don't go anywhere at all. I know of those who leave say they couldn't go anywhere else. They know what is right and true is but aren't willing for it. I've heard that personally from people who have left and I have visited. Another intriguing thing I notice is that I know not of one of our people who have come out of religious darkness and then posts on forums about their old church with a critical, condemning attitude. But how many of those who have been disappointed in" the 2x2 Church "and have found life and Christ in" other Christian churches do that. As I've said they've left it but can't get away from it. They aren't such a good advertisement for the new life and Christ they have found! "I find it very revealing that people like; you? Ros, enuf, pragmatic, Ross and oh, many others who post on this forum find it so galling and difficult to accept that people leave other churches and come to us. Those that did not have had spiritual life or find Christ there; they came to Gospel meetings and their testimony is of finding Christ, getting a spiritual life and having a Christian life and fellowship that they never had previously." So it should be very easy to answer my question @review005 ! Sure this happened in the early years, but now ? If all these people are flocking to your church from other churches why can't you tell us how many have professed in the last 5 years?
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Post by revelat10n on Jul 11, 2017 21:49:32 GMT -5
Ros, There CERTAINLY are people who leave the lack of their previous church and experience and tell of the new life and Christ they have found. It'd be interesting and perhaps enlightening for you to hear the testimonies of some of them There is CERTAINLY less than 100 years ago Listen: rather than asking all your loaded questions, give us the answers you have found! Inspire us! The negative critical tone of your posts is dreary, be positive for a change or we'll be drawing the conclusion that your life is rather negative and dreary! Tell us of your new church and new and better spiritual life you have gained since you have left our church. Is there an eye-roll or vomit emoji on here?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2017 22:15:56 GMT -5
Ros, There CERTAINLY are people who leave the lack of their previous church and experience and tell of the new life and Christ they have found. It'd be interesting and perhaps enlightening for you to hear the testimonies of some of them There is CERTAINLY less than 100 years ago Listen: rather than asking all your loaded questions, give us the answers you have found! Inspire us! The negative critical tone of your posts is dreary, be positive for a change or we'll be drawing the conclusion that your life is rather negative and dreary! Tell us of your new church and new and better spiritual life you have gained since you have left our church. Once again it seems my question is too hard for you to answer @review005 ! All these enlightened individuals who have found Christ & a new life in your church, surely if there are so many of them you would be telling us the numbers over the last 5 years? I don't go to any church, Agnostic would be what I would call myself We are born we live we die, make the most of each moment, live in the moment. Take responsibility for your own actions. Question everything you think you know.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2017 22:31:35 GMT -5
Your post doesn't reflect what I observe, experience and feel amongst the lively Christians I am living amongst and enjoying deep satisfying fellowship with. But your view is in line with the malignant and critical attitude you have towards our church. Perhaps you are correctly stating what is happening amongst those you are with? I have no idea. We still work with those who have found no life or Christ in the churches and sing a song of deliverance in what they have found. They don't incidentally give much thought to the old, they are so taken up with the new, with the life, with the Christ they never had previously. They could spend many hours posting critical, even false posts on a forum about their old church, but they are so happy and satisfied with the new that they don't have the interest to dwell on the old. All glory must go to God alone for this. @review005 when did you last have someone profess who didn't have any connection to the 2x2 church ? When did you last have someone profess that had left another church ? @review005 Here is an example of why I asked the question, you are stating that people are leaving their churches because they "have found no life or Christ" in the church, but have found this in your Church. We all know that is what happened 100 years ago but today how many people are leaving churches to go to your church ? To say that the other churches have "no life of Christ" in my opinion is YOU judging other churches, the same as we were raised to believe "worldly churches' were all bad & wrong and "we" are the only right church. Seriously would there be 5 people in the last 5 years who have professed that came from another church ? If there were, how many are still going to meetings today ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 22:34:36 GMT -5
Ros, There CERTAINLY are people who leave the lack of their previous church and experience and tell of the new life and Christ they have found. It'd be interesting and perhaps enlightening for you to hear the testimonies of some of them There is CERTAINLY less than 100 years ago Listen: rather than asking all your loaded questions, give us the answers you have found! Inspire us! The negative critical tone of your posts is dreary, be positive for a change or we'll be drawing the conclusion that your life is rather negative and dreary! Tell us of your new church and new and better spiritual life you have gained since you have left our church. Once again it seems my question is too hard for you to answer @review005 ! All these enlightened individuals who have found Christ & a new life in your church, surely if there are so many of them you would be telling us the numbers over the last 5 years? I don't go to any church, Agnostic would be what I would call myself We are born we live we die, make the most of each moment, live in the moment. Take responsibility for your own actions. Question everything you think you know. actually an agnostic is not sure what has happened, you would be more on your way to atheism agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 12, 2017 0:28:01 GMT -5
Ros, That you would draw out of the factual story of people's spiritual experience that I am judging other churches doesn't concern me. You don't seem to grasp the wisdom of the adage 'people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones'. You are proficient in making incorrect and sometimes outrageous judgmental statements about the church you left and now despise. If you wish me to copy and paste a dozen or so of such posts here I'll do that for you.
Ross and I differ on lot of things, but I have never seen Ross's posts to be as you describe him, review005!
OOps! I thought he was talking about Ross Bowen
mea culpa
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 12, 2017 0:51:23 GMT -5
I think he his referring to Roselyn T, but they way he refers to RossB is disappointing also. At some point I'm sure the NZ overseer will need to involve himself.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 12, 2017 1:55:15 GMT -5
Obviously there are a lot of things to criticise about your church or people wouldn't be talking about them. Saying that people don't criticise the churches they came from. The workers are known to preach against churches. That is one of the things that was noticeable about their preaching. There are very few people still alive in meetings who have come out from other churches. Nearly everyone has grown up in the group, unless they are brought by someone wanting to marry a professing person. How many people, review, have professed in your meetings in the last 5 years who have come from outside with no previous contact with meetings. To reword, 1. how many complete strangers as you call them, have come to meetings and professed in the last 5 years. Not talking about those who want to marry a professing person. 2. How many came from another church? Enuf you ask me a question but give the answer that is acceptable to you within the same post! So are SO CORRECT you have found a lot of things to criticise our church about, you do it in every post. 1837 post denigrating your old church 0 posts telling of your new life and salvation:P All I see in your posts is our criticism, condemnation and bitterness about the church you left. Tell us of your new church, your new life and joy. Dwell on and post about the positive in your new and better life for a change! Your experience is so different from those who have come out of the deadness of various churches and found Christ and life in our fellowship! Review005, Why can't you just answer enuf's questions? They are valid and NOT "loaded" as you told Ros.
You CAN'T answer those questions! We know you can't answer! You know it !
How do you think that any of us could have any confidence in you and what you say when we ALL know that the only places people might be "coming out of their former churches" to profess are only in foreign countries where their former religion wasn't even Christian!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 12, 2017 2:52:57 GMT -5
Quite the rant, dmg! (not correct into the bargain) Feel better? Was it worth the effort? Still circling around the mulberry bush to keep from answering?
Do you really think that I am unaware that people use such a tactic to keep from answering?
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