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Post by Grant on Jul 10, 2017 15:24:05 GMT -5
Where does it say that people were disillusioned with the churches of the day or that the churches were dead? There were revivals those days. Keswick Convention etc. The Pentecostal movement started back then and new churches emerging.
I see Irvine as wanting nothing but to be a leader himself and have people follow him.
The reason many people are leaving meetings today is because it is dead. No life no new people coming in. Evangelism is dead in the 2x2s
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Post by fixit on Jul 10, 2017 15:31:06 GMT -5
I see Irvine as wanting nothing but to be a leader himself and have people follow him. From Goodhand Pattison's account.... I believe the workers jointly and individually felt Mr. Todd was not the man to superintend and direct such an important movement, and probably pressed Mr. Irvine himself into acceptance of responsibility. The fact that up to that point he had not sought out (place) and any authority which one would think rightly belonged to him spoke volumes for the character and worth of both men, and perhaps we may leave it at that, only to say that "Todd's Mission," as it was then called, shortly became a thing of the past, and I believe I heard later on that Mr. Todd himself had become a sort of a secretary in Liverpool or elsewhere for some foreign mission work. And the workers now in fellowship with William Irvine went on and increased in numbers, and perhaps I may add increased in their attachment to and respect for their chief's leadership, possibly more so than was good for him or them, for just here I beg leave to say the best of men are but men at best, and when deference, loyalty, obedience to leadership, etc., goes beyond a certain point, it is very apt to become either "popery" with its blind yieldedness to a supposed infallibility, or slavery with its helpless subservience to the will of another, who has the power to enforce it, or it may be sort of mixture of both; but in any case it is bad for both sides making the leader a sort of demigod, filling him with notions of his own indispensability and importance and making of the led ones mere tools and chattels, without the independence of character which is always becoming to a man, or recognizing responsibility to the highest of all authorities which is becoming to a child of God.
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Post by snow on Jul 10, 2017 16:04:27 GMT -5
Well then I guess you could say all churches are 'of God' and none of them are started by men. If that's the case then why are traditional churches called false by the workers? Also, where have I ever said Willy fascinates me? I was initially appalled and angry to find out about him even though I was no longer a believer. It felt like a betrayal against my parents. They put their everything into that group thinking it was a continuous line of workers back to the shores of Galilee, when it wasn't. They were so proud of that little 'fact' about their church of choice. I wonder how they would have felt if they knew. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but then again, it really might have. They tended to be honest so it might have dealt a might blow to them. I found out about it just before they passed away but I never told them I knew about Irvine. I wasn't sure if they knew and I didn't want to be the one to upset them if they didn't. They might have known since they knew many of the first workers. My grandfather professed in 1915 so it is possible. I doubt it though as my dad said many times that the difference between the 2x2's and the other churches was that there workers had come from a long line that led back to Jesus on the shores of Galilee. Who knows how your parents or grandfather would respond to your opinion /pov stated here? They got saved and received a new spiritual life. You have chosen not to seek what they had. That's fine, that is your choice. Yes, who knows. I didn't want to risk it at that late a stage in their lives. I thought it was kinder to let them live with what they thought they knew. I didn't feel it was important enough if it was something they didn't know and might have upset them.
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Post by snow on Jul 10, 2017 16:32:41 GMT -5
Yes, who knows. I didn't want to risk it at that late a stage in their lives. I thought it was kinder to let them live with what they thought they knew. I didn't feel it was important enough if it was something they didn't know and might have upset them. I'm sure didn't just think they were saved and had new spiritual life. No one who has that is disturbed by what you talk about. It is deeper and stronger than that! It is from God! Hopefully it wouldn't have mattered but you never know. Wasn't worth the risk imo. Your statement that 'No one who has that is disturbed by what you talk about' is rather judgmental. What if they had been upset even though they were very devout and were very spiritual? Would you then judge them as not being saved if they had become upset by the Irvine revelation? They professed for around 80 years. They were both in their mid to late 90's when they passed. Imo nothing is from God, so that statement doesn't make any sense to me. Religions do pride themselves in being able to believe the unbelievable and they can be quite devout about it. I know my parents were quite sure of their beliefs. My take on it was let them believe if it brought them comfort. That was my main reason for not telling them. It would have done more harm than good. Not worth it.
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Post by matisse on Jul 10, 2017 17:59:32 GMT -5
One year at convention, I heard a single reference from the platform to a shadowy figure whom God had used to restore the Vine on earth, but who later, God had to prune from that same Vine. (Let that be a warning!) I also heard many more times as a child, that if history had been recorded, the group would have been traceable back to the Shores of Galilee. I asked, innocently, who had come before George Walker. (George was still alive at the time.) I was surprised when the worker gave me an evasive answer. Learning the origin of the group was not the reason I left, I didn't know it yet. Later, I searched books (pre-Google) about the history of Christianity, and could see that the group probably originated in Ireland during the 19th century or beginning of the 20th, when many similar small "back to the Bible" sects arose, including sects that refused to take a name. One of the biggest gifts of finally seeing the history in print, was that the "if-history-had-been-recorded" mystique of the group instantly vanished, and the group "shrank" to fit into its rightful historical context.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 18:21:58 GMT -5
One year at convention, I heard a single reference from the platform to a shadowy figure whom God had used to restore the Vine on earth, but who later, God had to prune from that same Vine. (Let that be a warning!) I also heard many more times as a child, that if history had been recorded, the group would have been traceable back to the Shores of Galilee. I asked, innocently, who had come before George Walker. (George was still alive at the time.) I was surprised when the worker gave me an evasive answer. Learning the origin of the group was not the reason I left, I didn't know it yet. Later, I searched books (pre-Google) about the history of Christianity, and could see that the group probably originated in Ireland during the 19th century or beginning of the 20th, when many similar small "back to the Bible" sects arose, including sects that refused to take a name. One of the biggest gifts of finally seeing the history in print, was that the "if-history-had-been-recorded" mystique of the group instantly vanished, and the group "shrank" to fit into its rightful historical context. NathanB: I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years...... I am working Part III to show where they were so severely persecuted by the RCC so they went under the Radar without a name.... But they united as ONE through their belief/teachings.... Jesus and the apostles were theirs example.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
"Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion.
~~ John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
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Post by matisse on Jul 10, 2017 18:29:46 GMT -5
One year at convention, I heard a single reference from the platform to a shadowy figure whom God had used to restore the Vine on earth, but who later, God had to prune from that same Vine. (Let that be a warning!) I also heard many more times as a child, that if history had been recorded, the group would have been traceable back to the Shores of Galilee. I asked, innocently, who had come before George Walker. (George was still alive at the time.) I was surprised when the worker gave me an evasive answer. Learning the origin of the group was not the reason I left, I didn't know it yet. Later, I searched books (pre-Google) about the history of Christianity, and could see that the group probably originated in Ireland during the 19th century or beginning of the 20th, when many similar small "back to the Bible" sects arose, including sects that refused to take a name. One of the biggest gifts of finally seeing the history in print, was that the "if-history-had-been-recorded" mystique of the group instantly vanished, and the group "shrank" to fit into its rightful historical context. NathanB: I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years...... I am working Part III to show where they were so severely persecuted by the RCC so they went under the Radar without a name.... But they united as ONE through their belief/teachings.... Jesus and the apostles were theirs example.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
"Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion.
~~ John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
The "Holiness" movement was mocked and scorned by the head worker in my part of the world, as were all other Christian sects outside of ours.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 18:38:37 GMT -5
The "Holiness" movement was mocked and scorned by the head worker in my part of the world, as were all other Christian sects outside of ours.
~~ NathanB: Well, the head worker, the workers and the friends should NOT mocked others faith but tell and share with people why they believe the WAY they do... Like this person/friend below post did.
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
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Post by matisse on Jul 10, 2017 18:46:33 GMT -5
The "Holiness" movement was mocked and scorned by the head worker in my part of the world, as were all other Christian sects outside of ours.
~~ NathanB: Well, the head worker, the workers and the friends should NOT mocked others faith but tell and share with people why they believe the WAY they do... Like this person/friend below post did.
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
It's not a surprise that the group branched off of other groups that came before. A group of people today sincerely believe with all of their heart, that this is God's true way. Others in other Christian sects believe just as sincerely with all of their heart, that theirs is God's true way. IMO, this tendency to say "God is with us and not with others" is the product of human nature.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 19:13:11 GMT -5
It's not a surprise that the group branched off of other groups that came before. A group of people today sincerely believe with all of their heart, that this is God's true way. Others in other Christian sects believe just as sincerely with all of their heart, that theirs is God's true way. IMO, this tendency to say "God is with us and not with others" is the product of human nature.
Well, we read in the gospels... The Pharisees and Sadducees believed they were from God and Jesus was NOT. Jesus said, "No, I am the Way, the Truth and life, no man comes to the Father but through me." .... There are true way of God and there are NOT on the earth..... PRAY for the Spirit of discernment in recognizing whether is right or NOT according to the Will of God ..... John the apostle wrote I John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
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Post by matisse on Jul 10, 2017 19:30:16 GMT -5
It's not a surprise that the group branched off of other groups that came before. A group of people today sincerely believe with all of their heart, that this is God's true way. Others in other Christian sects believe just as sincerely with all of their heart, that theirs is God's true way. IMO, this tendency to say "God is with us and not with others" is the product of human nature.
Well, we read in the gospels... The Pharisees and Sadducees believed they were from God and Jesus was NOT. Jesus said, "No, I am the Way, the Truth and life, no man comes to the Father but through me." .... There are true way of God and there are NOT on the earth..... PRAY for the Spirit of discernment in recognizing whether is right or NOT according to the Will of God ..... John the apostle wrote I John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
This doesn't change my earlier response. It's human nature to believe that you are the one who has sincerely prayed for and received the spirit of discernment.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 10, 2017 19:50:20 GMT -5
I have read your posts and what I got from them is that you recognize that he was one of the early workers but that you don't believe he was the founder. Is this understanding correct? He came out of the Faith Mission and started a group of his own. That group kicked him out at some point, but he was definitely responsible for the grouping of those people separate from the Faith Mission. That group went on to be what we now call the 2x2's. He was a key figure if not THE key figure in their coming together as a group. He never founded the gospel but he did work his own interpretation of that gospel into the group's beliefs. imo it's just a matter of semantics to argue he wasn't the groups founder. Do you believe that your group as we know it today would have existed if he hadn't left the faith mission and gathered like minded individuals around him to form a different group with slightly different beliefs? Who can answer your hypothetical question? But I can definitely say that God would have answered the prayers of those people disillusioned in dead churchianity. It most surely and definitely didn't depend on the man that 'fascinates' you so. That is where so many are in error; this was of God, not of William Irvine (or any of the early workers). Review005. You are doing precisely what the early workers did when someone coming to gospel meetings started asking questions.
Because the workers did not give any name people would just naturally ask the workers questions about the name etc.
Those early workers would state something of the same as you are doing, -replying in vague terms such as it "coming from god," while at the same time just NOT mentioning when or where they had actually began.
They didn't overtly lie, -but certainly by covertly NOT telling ALL of the facts, -the impression was left that it went all the way back to the original apostles!
Consider the times. In the early 1900's a lot of people, especially in rural areas where the workers held gospel meetings, those people did not have the education that we do today.
My mother from Kentucky only got through the fifth grade. Her mother couldn't read. Many people couldn't even read the bible, -let alone know any of the history of Christianity, especially the Roman Catholic Church's heyday in Europe!
Had they known some of that history, they would have KNOWN that their so-called *TRUTH* couldn't have survived through-out the Catholics absolute rule that allowed no dissension!
That was HOW that whole idea of why people continued to believe that the *TRUTH* or *WAY* was the TRUE way and was from the very beginning came about and workers just sort of ALLOWED it to continue.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 10, 2017 20:17:25 GMT -5
So, if I tell myself that there were no founders, but God did it by using these men to create a fellowship according to NT teachings; I get it, they were just God's tools!
This has to be one for the Shrink I reckon!
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Post by fixit on Jul 10, 2017 20:21:21 GMT -5
Ida West speaking of her father: Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices.
I don't recall ever hearing a worker explain the beginnings so clearly.
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Post by speak on Jul 10, 2017 21:04:55 GMT -5
So, if I tell myself that there were no founders, but God did it by using these men to create a fellowship according to NT teachings; I get it, they were just God's tools! This has to be one for the Shrink I reckon! So according to what you say you don't believe God could do such?
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 21:17:54 GMT -5
So, if I tell myself that there were no founders, but God did it by using these men to create a fellowship according to NT teachings; I get it, they were just God's tools! This has to be one for the Shrink I reckon! So according to what you say you don't believe God could do such? God has always use men and women as His LIVING Witnesses on earth.... Paul wrote From Faith to Faith... Life begets Life....
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 21:23:08 GMT -5
Yes I am sensitive to your lies and hypocrisy. Is that a fault? Your question? It was a group of people in the last years of the 19th and early of the 20th century who were disillusioned in the religion of the day; churches like yours. They had no spiritual life, no Christ there. Will you deny them the reality of their experience? In raw faith and courage they stepped out of that and sought to follow Jesus teachings. They found Christ & spiritual life they never had before. There were many. The man you have an obsession about was of them. Irvine was prominent and emerged as the leader for a time. He lost the plot and separated. The group continued to grow exponentially. It doesn't worry me one iota what you say about me so please move on from all the childish personal rubbish. What matters is the facts. Given that you believe that your church was started by a group of men, who specifically were they? Given that in the very early years the first workers freely talked about their conversion to Christ in their previous church your statement about "no spiritual life, no Christ there..." is incorrect. That development (and complete heresy) occurred from 1904/5 onwards as their anti-clerical rants escalated ultimately resulting in John Long leaving. The anti-clerical/church rants continue to this day - you've demonstrated that once more in your posts. Haven't workers learned their lesson yet? RossB, you need to read Jesus rants on anti-Pharisee in Matthew 23..... Jesus gave them both barrels!
John Long had to leave/excommunicated because he was sending his 2x2 converts back to Babylon.... Most of the early workers and the friends came out of Babylon religious/denomination confusion themselves and they did NOT want to see any of their own worker sending his/her converts back to the HELL hole again.
There is no worker today that I know of sending his/her 2x2 converts to join the church of their choice after they converted to the 2x2 fellowship. He or she would be excommunicated from the ministry just like they did to John Long in 1907.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 21:29:36 GMT -5
God has always use men and women as His LIVING Witnesses on earth.... Paul wrote From Faith to Faith... Life begets Life.... If you think a Living Witness begets life you simply don't understand the Scriptures. No, it is you who don't understanding the Living Witnesses doctrine is! Jesus and the apostles teaches LIVING Witnesses doctrine in the early days..... and it has always been that way..... before the RCC or the 2x2 workers know about. Read Acts 1: 8; Romans 1:17; Romans 10:13-18
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 21:35:15 GMT -5
RossB, you need to read Jesus rants on anti-Pharisee in Matthew 23..... Jesus gave them both barrels!
John Long had to leave/excommunicated because he was sending his 2x2 converts back to Babylon.... Most of the early workers and the friends came out of Babylon religious/denomination confusion themselves and they did NOT want to see any of their own worker sending his/her converts back to the HELL hole again.
Nate - I know Matt 23 well - do you think that people who had previously turned to Christ as a result of God speaking to them via William Irvine went to hell? If so, God will condemn for writing such a thing. It's a seriously judgemental thing to write. Faith and life are not the domain of a church Nate - I'm surprised it's taken you so long to see this. You see, the Holy Spirit has been working/saving men and women for 1800 years before William Irvine was born. The Holy Spirit is thousands steps ahead of us.... It's you who doesn't get it.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 10, 2017 21:36:20 GMT -5
Quote - "So according to what you say you don't believe God could do such?"
No, I never said God could not do that. All churches make the similar claims. But in common language, these people are called Founders, or Fathers, in the same way Rutherford is called the Father of Nuclear Physics, even though Nuclear Physics was present all along from the foundations of the forming of the Sun and other stars.
What is actually happening is something very clever. It makes out that these men were mere tools being used at the whim of a higher power, and too bad about the millions of people gone before and yet to come. We could sing their hymns, but they were still unregenerate. These men were proclaiming that only they had the keys to heaven. George Fairweather preached that "Catholics have been dead the longest, that's what they stink the most." (No wonder rocks were thrown on the roof of where he preached). To imagine that only this small group to come from Ireland had adherents going to heaven; that God moved the pawns on the chess board of life; that they weren't men of ego, conviction, passion and emotion and flawed character, requires a quantum leap in mental belief, that I think borders on Shrink material.
I don't subscribe to mind games.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 21:38:07 GMT -5
No, it is you who don't understanding the Living Witnesses doctrine is! Jesus and the apostles teaches LIVING Witnesses doctrine in the early days..... and it has always been that way..... before the RCC or the 2x2 workers know about. Nate - if you think the sinful apostles "begot" spiritual life in people read the Word. It is seriously flawed thinking. Without Paul, Peter, James, John, Timothy, Silas, Barnabas, the 70 and other apostles there would NOT be a New Testament church, period! Like I said It's From Faith to Faith= LIVING Witnesses testimonies and preaching God's words to others.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 21:50:16 GMT -5
You see, the Holy Spirit has been working/saving men and women for 1800 years before William Irvine was born. The Holy Spirit is thousands steps ahead of us.... It's you who doesn't get it.
Of course the Holy Spirit has been working. The HS gives life, not the apostle/minister! You are saying that the apostle or minister ie the Living Witness gives life to another. They simply can't and don't. God uses sinful men and women to achieve His purposes in all kinds of ways. But sinful men and women cannot - repeat cannot - give life.
The workers can't give eternal but believing in gospel Jesus SAVES give the listeners Eternal life. Jesus said to the 12, the 70, and to all of His apostles... He that receiveth YOU receiveth Me..... He that despiseth YOU despiseth ME and he that despiseth me despiseth Him that sent me.
If you reject God's TRUE servant you're rejecting Christ and that is rejecting the Father also.
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Post by nathan on Jul 10, 2017 23:06:17 GMT -5
The workers can't give eternal but believing in gospel Jesus SAVES give the listeners Eternal life. Jesus said to the 12, the 70, and to all of His apostles... He that receiveth YOU receiveth Me..... He that despiseth YOU despiseth ME and he that despiseth me despiseth Him that sent me.
If you reject God's TRUE servant you're rejecting Christ and that is rejecting the Father also.
Thank you for clarifying that a minister/apostle/worker does not give eternal life. I agree that it is very important in line with Luke 10:16 not to reject a person who brings the message of Jesus - they are true messengers. As you know I don't believe workers in the main are God's true messengers because they preach a Jesus PLUS them message. They preach a gospel where God's grace is not enough - Jesus alone is not enough. You have to profess through them. It's completely wrong thinking and puts the focus on them in addition to Jesus. All glory must go to God alone - the Apostles were very clear on this.
Read the book of Acts you will see ALL of the believers in the New Testament professed through the apostles or the disciples of Christ (Ananias, Stephen, Philip the evangelist, Aquilla and prisilla) ministry do you call that Jesus PLUS the apostles?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2017 0:59:29 GMT -5
We still work with those who have found no life or Christ in the churches and sing a song of deliverance in what they have found. They don't incidentally give much thought to the old, they are so taken up with the new, with the life, with the Christ they never had previously. They could spend many hours posting critical, even false posts on a forum about their old church, but they are so happy and satisfied with the new that they don't have the interest to dwell on the old. All glory must go to God alone for this. Come on review005!
Who do you think that you are deluding?
Not me, -because I know you are not getting very many new people from anywhere, -let alone other churches!
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Post by speak on Jul 11, 2017 1:11:44 GMT -5
God has always use men and women as His LIVING Witnesses on earth.... Paul wrote From Faith to Faith... Life begets Life.... If you think a Living Witness begets life you simply don't understand the Scriptures. So you not a living witness then?
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Post by speak on Jul 11, 2017 1:48:31 GMT -5
So you not a living witness then? I am very happy to testify to others about the life that Christ brings and for His light to shine in me. However, I am not a Living Witness in the sense of the Living Witness Doctrine - never have been and never will be. It is a completely perverted gospel. Christ is the only true LIVING WITNESS that there has ever been on earth and ever will be. He has revealed the Father to us and there is no other name under heaven or earth by which we are saved (Acts 4). He is the giver of life. Words and beliefs are important - they can easily be skewed. There is no greater skew than someone trying to suggest that a sinful human being can somehow beget life. I hope you would rail against that as I have. It is similar to the RCC suggesting that Catholic Priests can absolve sin. They can't. It is a doctrine in similar vein to the LWD which must also be railed against. You can see how the RCC craftily twists Scripture to state that Jesus gave His Priests this power. www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-can-a-priest-forgive-sinLikewise, the 2x2 ministers use words all the time to infer and state that eternal life can only be received through their workers. Mrs Weymouth, in the earliest know 2x2 exit letter (posted on TTT last year) is incredibly accurate (based on Scripture) in her rejection of this teaching. www.tellingthetruth.info/testimonies_exit/let_concern.php#weymouthThe first line would have sufficed, didn't need all the other palaver.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2017 1:50:41 GMT -5
You haven't answered me why you spend so much time on TMB? Are you trying to discourage people from leaving or encourage them in their walk with God? What's your motive? There's another possible reason Ross... Learning what people's concerns are could make a worker's ministry more effective.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2017 2:22:51 GMT -5
One reason may be to make readers aware of your erroneous doctrine and lying posts. You're not doing a very good job then.... What are the other reasons? I mean you can't spend all your time on TMB just responding to me. I haven't had so attention from a worker in years...... Don't you feel "blessed" Ross, with all that attention?
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