|
Post by snow on Jun 22, 2017 15:34:13 GMT -5
Explain if you would please why you think Jesus didn't worship in the Hebrew religion? He disagreed with some of the newer things they were doing once the Romans took over and the Sanhedrin were in cahoots with the Romans, but otherwise he supported the Jewish religion and was even calling for more rigid rules like there had been in the past. He was most definitely a Jew and believed in the Jewish God. I think he would be quite amazed by the religion that is using his name as a founder today. He worshipped His Father they didn't so how could He have any fellowship with those who dispised the Father's will. He worshiped Yahweh. Just like any other Jew. Other Jews didn't despise Yahweh. Your God is the God of the Jews so that statement makes no sense at all. For that matter, the God of Islam is also the God of the Jews. Both Christianity and Islam have their roots in Judaism, claim Abraham as the father of their beliefs. The only difference between Christianity and Islam regarding Jesus is that one thinks he is a God or at least God's son, and Islam believes Jesus was a prophet just like Mohammed. So what God do you think Jesus worshiped if it wasn't Yahweh which was the name for the Jewish God? Why would Christianity have Yahweh in their sacred book if he wasn't their God too?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 22, 2017 17:06:34 GMT -5
speak, Do you believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD?"
You need to ask God that question, God knows who do His bidding. I would like to think there were no others. NO, -I am asking YOU, SPEAK!
I ask YOU what YOU believe.
YOU are the one insisting that there were no "earthly founders" of the fellowship YOU are in which is called 2x2's.
You are in that fellowship so you must believe SOMETHING.
So, I am asking again what do YOU believe?
"Do you believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" of other fellowships cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD?"
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 22, 2017 17:23:27 GMT -5
I said your You said: "Your experience obviously didn't contain God."
THAT was my "experience!"
I was born & raised in the the two-by-two's, professed at age 12 and continued for 40+ years.
|
|
|
Post by learning on Jun 22, 2017 18:35:46 GMT -5
Learning; you need to read the Book of Acts and consider the points I gave you in my last post. At present you can't and don't want to acknowledge that the apostolic ministry will be until the end of the age! But I'm not interested in convincing you. If you see it otherwise run with that! You won't be happy otherwise. If you have found a minister and ministry that is in accordance with your understanding of God's plan for the NT ministry then stick with it. I'm happy for you. Your question illustrates the unhealthy emphasis that 2x2 places on the form of the ministry. I have been "fed" spiritual bread by both workers in 2x2 and preachers that have nothing to do with 2x2.
|
|
|
Post by learning on Jun 22, 2017 19:05:02 GMT -5
Your question illustrates the unhealthy emphasis that 2x2 places on the form of the ministry. I have been "fed" spiritual bread by both workers in 2x2 and preachers that have nothing to do with 2x2. Learning No; you have made an incorrect statement. I encouraged you to read what the Word of God to see what it teaches about God's plan for the New Testament ministry. Look; seems you found another ministry that you are happy with? That's wonderful, I'm happy for you; enjoy that, be fed by that! Your posts leave me with the impression that you are more focused on finding fault than enjoying Truth that is found only in Jesus? I'd say you'll benefit greatly by less grizzling, moaning and finding fault and more enjoying life more abundant in Jesus. The overbearing focus on the form of the ministry in 2x2 is indeed a fault to be pointed out, glad you can see that. You say you don't care to convince me, so let's see if you can prove that by not responding again to this topic.
|
|
|
Post by learning on Jun 22, 2017 19:34:20 GMT -5
The overbearing focus on the form of the ministry in 2x2 is indeed a fault to be pointed out, glad you can see that. You say you don't care to convince me, so let's see if you can prove that by not responding again to this topic. Yes you are correct! I have no need to convince you of anything; rather I encourage you to support and stand by a ministry that is according to your slant and flavour. You'll be happy there. Yes you are correct! You grizzle and moan about what you consider to be an overbearing focus. Yes I can see that! Rather enjoy a ministry that matches your slant and flavour and understanding of Scripture! 30,001 ....
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Jun 22, 2017 20:52:34 GMT -5
You need to ask God that question, God knows who do His bidding. I would like to think there were no others. NO, -I am asking YOU, SPEAK!
I ask YOU what YOU believe.
YOU are the one insisting that there were no "earthly founders" of the fellowship YOU are in which is called 2x2's.
You are in that fellowship so you must believe SOMETHING.
So, I am asking again what do YOU believe?
"Do you believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" of other fellowships cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD?"
Don't hold your breath for a response from speak, dmmichgood ! He will not answer your question because if he was to say people can be saved without the workers he would then have acknowledge that WI was in fact the founder of his Church. Then if he was to say people cannot be saved unless they hear the workers, he would have to think about all those that lived & died before the 1800's who didn't hear the workers going to hell ! So of course the "cop-out" is only God knows , but its strange how the same logic doesn't apply when people have to be re-baptised by the workers even if they have been baptised in another church, its seems then that God doesn't know !
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on Jun 22, 2017 22:14:39 GMT -5
He commanded them in Matt 10 to go on a short term mission (by review005's own admission). Using your arguement, it would logically follow that the diciples then would NOT lead a lifetime itinerant ministry. My word do you know I find no instruction for a short term mission as you have stated, there is no mention at all of any time limit so I can only surmise that it was never to stop. I can only also surmise that the instruction Jesus gave latter on was to modify it for Gentile use. I posted the following a couple of weeks ago so I'll post again. The attached link provides a detailed account of Christ's public ministry in the 3.5 years it occurred. www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN160-TRAVELS.htmWhile this link doesn't focus on a month by month chronology (it focuses on years) another Christian I know has written the following short account based on the Gospels and is aiming to flesh this out based on the details in the Gospels. "Jesus began (perhaps in Autumn, September) the third year of his public life with a second major tour through Galilee (probably September through November). As in his 1st tour about a year earlier, he went from one village to another, primarily preaching and teaching. However, two features were distinctive on that 2nd tour. First of all, he was accompanied by the twelve- the first time the twelve were mentioned, having just been selected that summer. (On the 1st tour he was accompanied only by the four fishermen). Secondly, he was accompanied by a large group of women, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna. After His final visit to and rejection at Nazareth, Jesus conducted a third tour of Galilee (perhaps January into March), "going about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching and healing.” As in his second tour (some four months earlier), the twelve were with him. Jesus saw that the multitudes were "like sheep without a shepherd; the harvest plentiful, but the workers few; pray the Lord of harvest to send out workers". So he divided the twelve into six teams of two each, sent them out, and gave them distinctive instructions (i.e., re Gentiles & Samaritans, authority to cast out demons, raise the dead, carry no extra money or clothing, etc.). Then he himself also went through Galilee. They completed their tours just before Passover. The twelve were out on this mission for about 6 weeks. At that time, Jesus also learned of Herod Antipas' fears that Jesus might be John the Baptist reincarnated or resurrected. In response, Jesus changed his ministry for the remaining 6 months in Galilee (April/August) - making four withdrawals from Antipas' territory to train the 12 in areas just outside Galilee, preparing them for his departure. So Jesus began his last 6 months in Galilee by calling the 12 apostles to withdraw with him (at Passover time) to a secluded place to rest. They went to a place on the north-eastern side of Lake Galilee in the mountains." <end of passage> We know that many of the apostles were married 1 Cor 9:5 ('...don't we have a right to take a believing wife with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Peter....'), some at least had homes (Peter, John) - it's logical that all who had wives had homes (either owned/rented) and it was very much the Jewish custom to have children (it was abnormal not to). It was also normal practice to look after extended family in a home - grandparents - we read of Peter's mother in law in his home etc. We know these homes weren't sold from Scripture (Jesus at the end of his natural life asked John to look after Mary in his home) so it's quite safe to assume they returned to them after their preaching tour. For example, Peter and Andrew were originally from Bethsaida and Peter's home was in Capernaum, the city which was quite a base for Jesus – Jesus referred to as his "own town" or "own city" in Matt 9:1. In the last year of Christ's public ministry, the 12 were sent on their short preaching tour (Luke 9:1) with the message to repent and believe and then returned to Capernaum (Mark 6:30, Luke 9:10) a short time later - a period of time estimated to be around 6 or so weeks. Post this mission the 70/72 (depending on translation) were also sent on a specific and short trip of various cities that Christ Himself would visit - the urgency to proclaim the message was obvious as Jesus knew what awaited Him. The 72 returned a short time later having accomplished their specific mission (Luke 10:17). Of course, apart from the short preaching trip that the 12 undertook based on Christ's instruction, the 12 were often with Jesus (as per details in the link) after their appointment. Their relatively short preaching trip occurred in the 3rd year of Christ's public ministry. Based on the chronology it seems that the 12 were appointed about half way through Christ's public ministry. Takeouts The 2x2 specific mission trip undertaken by the 12 was a very short part of Christ's overall public ministry of 3.5 years
|
|
|
Post by speak on Jun 22, 2017 23:11:18 GMT -5
You need to ask God that question, God knows who do His bidding. I would like to think there were no others. NO, -I am asking YOU, SPEAK!
I ask YOU what YOU believe.
YOU are the one insisting that there were no "earthly founders" of the fellowship YOU are in which is called 2x2's.
You are in that fellowship so you must believe SOMETHING.
So, I am asking again what do YOU believe?
"Do you believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" of other fellowships cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD?"
I believe that God has bought me into His way simple as that.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 23, 2017 1:32:16 GMT -5
Jesus didn't create Christianity, He bought a message from God about Himself for the salvation offered to man. Jesus didn't worship in the Jews religion, the Jews religion was far from Gods will. He will recognise those who have His Spirit. Explain if you would please why you think Jesus didn't worship in the Hebrew religion? He disagreed with some of the newer things they were doing once the Romans took over and the Sanhedrin were in cahoots with the Romans, but otherwise he supported the Jewish religion and was even calling for more rigid rules like there had been in the past. He was most definitely a Jew and believed in the Jewish God. I think he would be quite amazed by the religion that is using his name as a founder today. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew.
|
|
|
Post by PrueBert on Jun 23, 2017 1:42:32 GMT -5
Is RossB also Ross Bowden?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 23, 2017 2:15:57 GMT -5
NO, -I am asking YOU, SPEAK!
I ask YOU what YOU believe.
YOU are the one insisting that there were no "earthly founders" of the fellowship YOU are in which is called 2x2's.
You are in that fellowship so you must believe SOMETHING.
So, I am asking again what do YOU believe?
"Do you believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" of other fellowships cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD?"
I believe that God has bought me into His way simple as that. Speak,
You are dissembling.
In order to answer what you really know would put you into the bind of having to admit that the 'fellowship' that was considered by most of the friends to have gone all the way back to the original disciples was really started by men a little more than 100 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2017 2:19:07 GMT -5
Where does it say that pastors are to remain unmarried, go out penniless, not own a house, be itinerant etc?
The workers are pastors in most countries these days. Matthew 10 and 28 are not for pastors.
It amuses me when the workers claim they are the closet to the New Testament church when their church and ministry are not like what we read in the Bible. Ross quoted Ephesians 4:11. This is the New Testament church and is found in most churches today.
Missionaries give up the comfort of their homes and go out relying on God to provide into foreign lands. They are not pastors yet the workers expect pastors to go out like workers and apostles. The majority of workers are just pastors which is not what Matthew 10 and 28 was referring to.
When Jesus told them to go into all the world in Matthew 28 it was to preach the Gospel. The workers just stay and preach to their own. That was not what the passage says. Jesus said he would be with them unto the end of the age which surely means bringing people in. Is he still with the 2x2s. We don't see much if any fruit for their labour. A different picture to what we see in the NT church.
The workers do not go out penniless. They have bank accounts and are guaranteed free board and keep. Nothing like the NT ministry and what Jesus meant in Matthew 28. Imagine some man called William Irvine from Scotland starting up the true church. Who believes that these days?
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2017 2:54:46 GMT -5
No where does it say in Matthew 28 that they were to go as they did in Matthew 10. We know clearly in Luke 22 that they were told to take purse etc. Jesus was clear that Matthew 10 was while he was with them and not to continue after he left them. Luke 22.
The instruction in Matthew 28 was to go into the world teaching people to obey what he commanded them. Nothing about commanding the apostles to go out like they did in Matthew 10.
I know the Anglican church has missionaries. Ministers which I see are the same as pastors. Sounds like Ephesians 4 to me. Not so the 2x2s. They are all pastors but call themselves workers. In the early days the workers did get out and preach to the lost but seems they lost the blessing and ministry when they started telling workers where to go and putting them over areas. They changed from apostles / missionaries to pastors. How many go out to foreign un churched lands now where their are no professing people?
What work do the workers do besides visiting. Is that what Jesus meant in Matthew 28?
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2017 4:00:35 GMT -5
Again you use bishops / pastors / ministers as a synonym to apostle or Missionary. Get the different roles of ministry correct as mainstream churches do.
Pastors are not taking the role of apostles. As I said the workers take the role of pastor these days. A few have gone to 3rd world countries and preached to non believers. Were you homeless and without any financial support in 3rd world countries or were you in an appartment with financial support as workers frequently do these days. The difference ministries in the NT church were clear. Apostle was not pastor and so on. Again Jesus was clear and gave the reason why he reversed Matthew 10 instructions. The reason was because he would no longer be with them. Nothing to do with trying to catch them out. People took swords those days.
Try reading scripture as it is written without your 2x2 blinkers on. It's really enlightening.
Yes the church I attend and most mainline churches have all the different ministries in Ephesians 4. The word missionary is used in place for apostle as the term apostle generally refers to the 12 just as you use the word worker in place of apostle but as I said most workers take the role of pastor these days and try to apply the apostles ministry to that of a pastor.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2017 4:16:01 GMT -5
The majority of missionaries have not been to Bible College, review. Also, no one says a pastor has to go to Bible College either and many never have. However I personally prefer one who has sat under the teaching of others as we know teachers who are informed are better teachers.
In Ephesians 4:11 it appears that pastors may have also been teachers. Not preachers as such but teachers.
Nothing wrong with learning from others who have gone before as found in Bible College. Israel 2,000 years ago was vastly different from our culture and time. That is why it is unbelievable to say you are a pattern of the NT ministry. A 120 year old Scottish ministry claiming to be a ministry based on a ministry in Israel 2,000 years ago. No comparison.
|
|
|
Post by speak on Jun 23, 2017 4:25:27 GMT -5
Explain if you would please why you think Jesus didn't worship in the Hebrew religion? He disagreed with some of the newer things they were doing once the Romans took over and the Sanhedrin were in cahoots with the Romans, but otherwise he supported the Jewish religion and was even calling for more rigid rules like there had been in the past. He was most definitely a Jew and believed in the Jewish God. I think he would be quite amazed by the religion that is using his name as a founder today. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. If you say so.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2017 4:30:01 GMT -5
Actually, I'm not sure Jesus even meant to create Christianity. He was just a devout Jew that felt there were changes needed in his current religion. I doubt he would even recognize the religion Christianity if he came back today. Jesus didn't create Christianity, He bought a message from God about Himself for the salvation offered to man. Jesus didn't worship in the Jews religion, the Jews religion was far from Gods will. He will recognise those who have His Spirit. The Jews religion was God's will for that time but he had another plan for them and us.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2017 4:49:42 GMT -5
Ephesians 4 is the basis of the different ministries within the church.
Living on fresh air or money? I have no problem with people getting financial support for their work but I do have a problem with people saying that they don't when they do. Faith is an alternative to money. The workers claimed to be going out by faith with no financial support and condemn others who get financially supported by their church members.
I already said that in Luke 22 Jesus made it clear that Matthew 10 instructions was when he was with them and reversed when he went to the Cross. If people didn't take swords those days I am sure that the apostle would have been arrested for having one. Do you think the apostle was breaking the law by having one. People have guns in the USA.
Some apostles took the role of pastor at later dates but this didn't mean that pastors were apostles. Some missionaries also take the role of pastor when they give up the mission field. The apostles were not required to be like they were in Matthew 10 when pastors. Nothing to say pastors have to follow Matthew 10. That was when they were on the mission field not when they were pastors.
I had no choice but to belong to the church i was brought up in, review. I knew of nothing else. When I found out the truth that this church was started by men and was not a continuation of the NT church I got free and went to a church were the truth was taught.
|
|
|
Post by PrueBert on Jun 23, 2017 5:44:03 GMT -5
Is RossB also Ross Bowden? Is Bert also Pruebert? Sorry, I asked first!!
ps could likely be
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 8:17:22 GMT -5
It is only your fault seeking mindset and perhaps your troubled heart that can lead you to the conclusion you arrived at. &&&] Troubled heart?? Hmm.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 23, 2017 8:22:33 GMT -5
Explain if you would please why you think Jesus didn't worship in the Hebrew religion? He disagreed with some of the newer things they were doing once the Romans took over and the Sanhedrin were in cahoots with the Romans, but otherwise he supported the Jewish religion and was even calling for more rigid rules like there had been in the past. He was most definitely a Jew and believed in the Jewish God. I think he would be quite amazed by the religion that is using his name as a founder today. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. RE: Jesus didn't worship in the Hebrew religion? ? Then how was the life Jesus lived perfect? According to what standard? If not the Old Covenant or Jewish law? Jesus lived a perfect life according to Jewish/Old Covenant law and was therefore able to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of manking on Calvary.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 23, 2017 8:44:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by learning on Jun 23, 2017 8:48:23 GMT -5
Amidst all your barbs you've confirmed your belief that people can only get new life and salvation by listening to the workers preaching the gospel. No wonder countless people over the years have pointed out the gross error of that doctrine and teaching and have moved churches to where Christ is upheld in all His majesty and righteousness as opposed to a ministry. Ross your twisting of others statements to your own purpose knows no bounds! It is only your fault seeking mindset and perhaps your troubled heart that can lead you to the conclusion you arrived at. It really hits a spot with you when I mention that people find spiritual life and salvation in listening to workers preaching the gospel doesn't it? Don't feel like that! When guys like you aren't happy in our church and leave and go to some other church I'm happy for them if they have found what makes them happy! It is no threat to me and my relationship with God if someone says they have gone to some protestant church or whatever and got life they never had in our church. That's great! Salvation and spiritual matters are a personal matter. You really seem to be tormented with the attitude you have against our church. I'm very sorry about that! I'd like you to be as happy and satisfied as those that have left protestant churches like where you are and are with us now! Be happy, it's grievous to see you with such a burden . Enjoy your new life and new church lots more! You are shooting yourself in the foot looking back over your shoulder in ill will at the church you left. It the sentence in red were true that would be refreshing. Honest question: Would you say this from the platform at convention?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 23, 2017 13:20:17 GMT -5
Jesus didn't create Christianity, He bought a message from God about Himself for the salvation offered to man. Jesus didn't worship in the Jews religion, the Jews religion was far from Gods will. He will recognise those who have His Spirit. The Jews religion was God's will for that time but he had another plan for them and us. So God changed his mind? I hope he told the Jews that. They still seem to think their Messiah is coming and they are still God's only chosen people.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 13:16:42 GMT -5
If someone is unhappy in our fellowship and unable to agree with our doctrine or practices then finally the time comes when it is better for them and better for us in the fellowship that they go to a church where they find doctrine and practice that they can be in agreement with. )))) And then act like these people will go to a lost eternity, but I digress. I don't see a whole lot of agreement among those in the fellowship. Just a pretense of unity in some cases.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 24, 2017 16:43:07 GMT -5
Amidst all your barbs you've confirmed your belief that people can only get new life and salvation by listening to the workers preaching the gospel. No wonder countless people over the years have pointed out the gross error of that doctrine and teaching and have moved churches to where Christ is upheld in all His majesty and righteousness as opposed to a ministry. Ross your twisting of others statements to your own purpose knows no bounds! It is only your fault seeking mindset and perhaps your troubled heart that can lead you to the conclusion you arrived at. It really hits a spot with you when I mention that people find spiritual life and salvation in listening to workers preaching the gospel doesn't it? Don't feel like that! When guys like you aren't happy in our church and leave and go to some other church I'm happy for them if they have found what makes them happy! It is no threat to me and my relationship with God if someone says they have gone to some protestant church or whatever and got life they never had in our church. That's great! Salvation and spiritual matters are a personal matter. You really seem to be tormented with the attitude you have against our church. I'm very sorry about that! I'd like you to be as happy and satisfied as those that have left protestant churches like where you are and are with us now! Be happy, it's grievous to see you with such a burden . Enjoy your new life and new church lots more! You are shooting yourself in the foot looking back over your shoulder in ill will at the church you left. Bollocks! review005!
Just how naive do you think that Ross and the rest of us are? We aren't "newbies" still wet behind the ears!
You are using an old, old trick. So old in fact, - it was used by the shamans of ancient times and as new as interrogators still use today !
first, -accuse someone of something, " twisting of others statements;" then diagnose their emotions, -"tormented," -"having a "troubled heart;" then, you assume a facade of compassion, -"it's grievous to see you with such a burden;" -"I'm very sorry about that!" Next and last, act the benevolent superior by giving advise, -"Be happy," -"Enjoy your new life and new church"
Review005, -that method is so recognizable to those of us who have left the 2x2's, that I wonder why you think that we would still fall for it ?
Of course the whole idea of wanting to be a part of the 2x2's or any other religion is based on winning over or playing on a person's emotions -like the familiar one we know well, "that last line of the last verse of that last song of the last meeting of the convention! " with the last line repeated if necessary.
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Jun 24, 2017 18:36:16 GMT -5
It the sentence in red were true that would be refreshing. Honest question: Would you say this from the platform at convention? If someone is unhappy in our fellowship and unable to agree with our doctrine or practices then finally the time comes when it is better for them and better for us in the fellowship that they go to a church where they find doctrine and practice that they can be in agreement with. Speak it at convention? Would it not more likely would come up in a visit with someone who; while still going to mtgs didn't agree with our doctrine and practices? If the time and situation required it, yes of course I could speak along that line in a public meeting. I don't think there is anything too radical or unorthodox about that is there? It happens; family and friends have a sadness but also a 'sigh of relief' that the 'square peg in a round hole' has gone to a place where he/she can fit in and be happy. @review005 could you tell us what the"doctrines" of your church are ? Or maybe a better way of putting it would be if someone that didn't belong to your church asked you, what are your "doctrines" what would your answer be ?
|
|