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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2017 10:42:07 GMT -5
Landmarks - Gordon Winkler - Pulaski, Virginia Convention - Sept. 1, 1996 I don't know if you folks have been troubled with dissenters. We seem to have some in our part of the world. A man came and recorded everything that was said; if you want the Gospel according to Gordon Winkler, you can get it for $4.50. A question arises: When did your faith start? and they dive into this and that...it is just another belief...a cult...and people are being deceived...and that kind of business.
When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10, we find some verses. Verse 35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee. Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days. We can go back to this earthly landmark that started in Galilee. But it didn't start there really.
There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven. We can look back in our minds and read about the time Jesus left His home as a young man at the age of 30...He left everything He had and gave to the poor, and went out as a homeless preacher..."with no where to lay my head." ("Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt. 8:20) Then He called those twelve men from their business and they went out like Jesus. And then He called the seventy and sent them out two and two. Not two by two. And they went into every place where Jesus Himself would come, telling men and women about a heavenly plan God had for them. And this began in Galilee! That is a wonderful thought for me!
Jesus went on to the next landmark. And born of Mary, and began His ministry in Galilee...the earthly fulfillment of the heavenly plan...and continues right down to the present day. It is a wonderful thing we don't keep a history of the kingdom. We have an accountant that keeps a history of every person and does it better than we could...the Lamb's Book of Life.
We can be satisfied this was planned in eternity, and Jesus came down and established it in Galilee. Right down to our age today...1996...this same truth which Jesus lived and taught...from place to place, and area to area, there are landmarks that represent the interest of God's kingdom.
We think of the landmark that Jesus set in Galilee. It wasn't in theory. He gave His whole life. That is the landmark God established.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 14:53:21 GMT -5
Gordon Winkler said that "God's Way is often imitated but never duplicated".
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Post by speak on Jun 19, 2017 14:53:57 GMT -5
Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever.
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Post by speak on Jun 19, 2017 14:56:53 GMT -5
Gordon Winkler said that "God's Way is often imitated but never duplicated". And look at all the imitations out there. And not one the same as another.
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Post by fred on Jun 19, 2017 18:30:23 GMT -5
The worker says:
"When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10, we find some verses. Verse 35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee. Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days. We can go back to this earthly landmark that started in Galilee. But it didn't start there really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven."
Cheree Kropp in her 'telling the truth' style reporting states: It started in Galilee!! per Gordon Winkler, 1996
Kellyanne would be proud of the alternative facts that Cherie comes up with! I'm surprised the physician Luke doesn't also get mention on the TTT website; after all he wrote it! He wrote ".... and began from Galilee....." Who knows what was in this man's mind when he spoke those words, there is enough wriggle room to understand it from both angles. if I were an outsider with no previous experience with the group I would probably see him speaking of Christianity. However, when you put it together with all the other teachings such as 'we are the only true way', and 'all other ways are false', and 'we have no earthly founder', you arrive at a different conclusion. How was it that the vast majority of friends believed that "the way" meaning our fellowship group, was from the shores of Galilee, that our fellowship had no earthly founder? And why was it that this belief, being so widely held, was not corrected by the ministry?
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Post by revelat10n on Jun 19, 2017 18:52:27 GMT -5
The worker says:
"When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10, we find some verses. Verse 35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee. Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days. We can go back to this earthly landmark that started in Galilee. But it didn't start there really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven."
Cheree Kropp in her 'telling the truth' style reporting states: It started in Galilee!! per Gordon Winkler, 1996
Kellyanne would be proud of the alternative facts that Cherie comes up with! I'm surprised the physician Luke doesn't also get mention on the TTT website; after all he wrote it! He wrote ".... and began from Galilee....." Who knows what was in this man's mind when he spoke those words, there is enough wriggle room to understand it from both angles. if I were an outsider with no previous experience with the group I would probably see him speaking of Christianity. However, when you put it together with all the other teachings such as 'we are the only true way', and 'all other ways are false', and 'we have no earthly founder', you arrive at a different conclusion. How was it that the vast majority of friends believed that "the way" meaning our fellowship group, was from the shores of Galilee, that our fellowship had no earthly founder? And why was it that this belief, being so widely held, was not corrected by the ministry? And, if you're trying to be honest and refute someone else'else's claim, why not just come out and say it was started by Irvine. Seems obvious this was deliberately deceptive, along the lines of not telling ALL the truth. It's more comfortable to skip over that part.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2017 19:08:44 GMT -5
Who is KellyAnne Kropp?
Whole lot of equivocation going on in the replies above....
Would you be willing to state your church was started by Irvine?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2017 19:13:47 GMT -5
Not so! I didnt provide any facts - I merely quoted the man's sermon!
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Post by johnfields on Jun 19, 2017 19:19:33 GMT -5
Regardless of how happily-professing people see it, the fact is that there are a lot of people out there who very literally believe that Jesus sent out his disciples and then people carried on like that in an unbroken line right up to the present-day disciplines, the workers. That is what I believed, even after I'd left. If it wasn't for the fact that I had come to see myself as a materialist atheist at the time (who at the same time had a strange sense of purpose and destiny that I did not label as "God", having decided the 2x2 God did not exist), I would have likely felt that I HAD to attend meetings on that basis.
This belief can keep people attending the meetings even if they get little good from them and would prefer not to be associated with them. They believe they they literally have to go to meetings because this is the original one true church established by Jesus. They believe that not attending means you go to Hell.
It is clearly not the case that William Irvine was one of a long line of disciples going back to Jesus. It is one thing to claim that William Irvine was truly inspired by Jesus; it is quite another to deny his existence or to imply (as Willis Propp did) that he was just one in a long line of disciples of Jesus. Many churches believe they are the finest form of Christianity; the honest ones still admit that they were founded by particular people whose aim was to return to a truer form of Christianity.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 19, 2017 19:39:42 GMT -5
Landmarks - Gordon Winkler - Pulaski, Virginia Convention - Sept. 1, 1996 I don't know if you folks have been troubled with dissenters. We seem to have some in our part of the world. A man came and recorded everything that was said; if you want the Gospel according to Gordon Winkler, you can get it for $4.50. A question arises: When did your faith start? and they dive into this and that...it is just another belief...a cult...and people are being deceived...and that kind of business. When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10, we find some verses. Verse 35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee. Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days. We can go back to this earthly landmark that started in Galilee. But it didn't start there really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven. We can look back in our minds and read about the time Jesus left His home as a young man at the age of 30...He left everything He had and gave to the poor, and went out as a homeless preacher..."with no where to lay my head." ("Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt. 8:20) Then He called those twelve men from their business and they went out like Jesus. And then He called the seventy and sent them out two and two. Not two by two. And they went into every place where Jesus Himself would come, telling men and women about a heavenly plan God had for them. And this began in Galilee! That is a wonderful thought for me! Jesus went on to the next landmark. And born of Mary, and began His ministry in Galilee...the earthly fulfillment of the heavenly plan... and continues right down to the present day. It is a wonderful thing we don't keep a history of the kingdom. We have an accountant that keeps a history of every person and does it better than we could...the Lamb's Book of Life. We can be satisfied this was planned in eternity, and Jesus came down and established it in Galilee. Right down to our age today...1996...this same truth which Jesus lived and taught...from place to place, and area to area, there are landmarks that represent the interest of God's kingdom. We think of the landmark that Jesus set in Galilee. It wasn't in theory. He gave His whole life. That is the landmark God established. I hope no-one is nuts enough to still preach this in in the past five or ten years, when we've got almost every bit of the true history of this sect very well documented and instantly available to anyone with a computer or smartphone in far more detail than most people would want, complete with photos and letters and newspaper reports and what-not. I keep wondering how many people still believe this arrogant nonsense. The Lamb's Book of Life! What the blazes is that?!? So many have got trapped in the 2x2s through believing this ridiculous fabrication. PS. Cherie has kindly pointed out to me what the Lamb's Book of Life is. No way are the lies of the 2x2s going to end up in that, recorded as anything other than lies.
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Post by fred on Jun 19, 2017 19:48:09 GMT -5
Perhaps those who read my post may have noticed that I wrote "fellowship group", meaning the physical or 'earthly' structure. When we speak of 'the way' that is what most professing folks think of - a specified group of people practising a certain tradition.
There are no alternative facts there, just a statement of generally accepted understanding.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 19, 2017 19:57:16 GMT -5
Who knows what was in this man's mind when he spoke those words, there is enough wriggle room to understand it from both angles. If I were an outsider with no previous experience with the group I would probably see him speaking of Christianity. However, when you put it together with all the other teachings such as 'we are the only true way', and 'all other ways are false', and 'we have no earthly founder', you arrive at a different conclusion. How was it that the vast majority of friends believed that "the way" meaning our fellowship group, was from the shores of Galilee, that our fellowship had no earthly founder? And why was it that this belief, being so widely held, was not corrected by the ministry?
Fred, -you are so right!
WHY, -when the friends who had believed that "the way" come straight from the shores of Galilee with no other earthly founder, WHY did the "vast majority of friends" become so upset when they first found that it wasn't true?
And review005, Don't even try to deny that they did NOT get upset!
We all had relatives and friends who were VERY, VERY upset!
That knowledge is what led to such a massive exit of people and the real reason they have had to combine the workers to take over two states in some places & close conventions is some states.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 19, 2017 20:08:22 GMT -5
Perhaps those who read my post may have noticed that I wrote "fellowship group", meaning the physical or 'earthly' structure. When we speak of 'the way' that is what most professing folks think of - a specified group of people practising a certain tradition. There are no alternative facts there, just a statement of generally accepted understanding. Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder? Review005,
-if YOU are in a fellowship known as "the way," "the truth," -the group of people who "professed " and the overseers of the EASTERN US was George Walker and WESTERN US was Eldon Tenniswood; -YOU BELONG TO A CHURCH THAT HAS AN EARTHLY FOUNDER
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2017 20:42:36 GMT -5
Not so! I didnt provide any facts - I merely quoted the man's sermon! Thank you have revealing your dishonesty further! Yes you 'merely' partially quoted the man's sermon and left an impression THE OPPOSITE of what the man infact said. Your thread headline is "It started in Galilee!! per Gordon Winkler, 1996" Gordon went on to say said But it didn't start there (Galilee) really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven."That is dishonest, it is not TELLING THE TRUTH. I endorse what Gordon said. The plan for the church/fellowship I am now a part of is what was planned in Heaven. Then as Luke wrote in Acts ....began in Galilee...(earthly landmark to use Gordon's expression). I don't know exactly what happened in the intervening 1900 years. There doubtless will be men and women who have done things according to the pattern that was made in heaven. Then late 1800s there were men and women who were disappointed and disillusioned with their experience in the churches and denominations of that day. In raw faith and courage, amidst much persecution and opposition they stepped out of that and sought to live and fellowship and preach according to the pattern that was made in heaven and as Luke says ...began in Galilee..... Some misguided souls claim I am in a church founded by Willy Irvine. Willy Irvine was prominent, a leader in the early days of our church. Early on he, as I understand he 'got off the rails' ended his days in Israel. But what he once was part of had the blessing of God upon it! It grew exponentially after Willy went off! Still today people get salvation and life in this fellowship that is based on that which was planned in heaven. Do you have the whole sermon? If not, then you don't know what you're talking about. It's not dishonest to quote something and give credit to the speaker.
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Post by speak on Jun 19, 2017 20:52:00 GMT -5
Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder? Review005,
-if YOU are in a fellowship known as "the way," "the truth," -the group of people who "professed " and the overseers of the EASTERN US was George Walker and WESTERN US was Eldon Tenniswood; -YOU BELONG TO A CHURCH THAT HAS AN EARTHLY FOUNDERWe don't need an earthly founder so William is not recognised as such. We have an heavenly founder who is and ever more will remain.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 19, 2017 20:54:49 GMT -5
I also think Fred is on the money.
People believe what they want to believe. If some want to believe that a church was started by a man, they will. If they want to believe that there was always a path, and a man found it, they will. People do not want facts to get in the way of their faith.
I can't recall the worker who said, but a senior US worker when asked about Irvine, said word to the effect of, "I tell you, no such man existed".
When I visited California and attended Santee Convention some years back, and asked about what people knew about Irvine, it was obvious that the people had been lied to. Especially knowing how well documented things were, and that at least two workers had admitted to Irvine's involvement in starting the fellowship under oath in a court of law.
When Everett Swanson said, "we cannot prove apostolic succession", why would people try and think they can?
When many workers preached about it being from the shores of Galilee, of course apostolic succession was the impression they were giving. However, I believe that in many cases, they also believed it, because they were also ignorant of the church's history. I know of one senior lady worker who was shocked to the core when asked by an elder, as she had never heard of the names. All she knew was of Cooney, and the term Cooney-ites, but had no idea of the history.
I give benefit of the doubt to these lovely sincere people, because if they didn't know any different, they are not to blame.
At the end of the day, what we know is either what we have read, been told, experienced, seen etc. It doesn't just happen.
The other thing that I struggled with was the exclusivity idea, then we would sing hymns from a hymn book that around 40% or more were written by people in other churches. Were their experience just imaginations and not real? Were we singing lies that they wrote down? If not, then how come they could have such wonderful spiritual experiences in other churches?
Of course, I rationalised before I professed that the church was merely a vehicle to help people with their relationship with God, and was not an end in itself. Therefore people like John Newton, Isaac Watts had real experiences that I could enter into regardless of the church they were in, and by default if we were in the same room, we could have fellowship.
This also means that the knowledge of someone like Irvine causes me no angst. It enables me to have fellowship with christians outside of the 2*2 church. I can go and listen to Stephen Lungu, and be as touched as the Methodist I sit next to, I can visit a tropical island and sit in the Presbyterian church with the locals and enjoy it as they do. And then sit in a special meeting and enjoy what a worker says. My faith is in God, not in a system of message distribution. God works in ways that are above and beyond the box of familiarity we would like to put him in.
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Post by revelat10n on Jun 19, 2017 21:01:20 GMT -5
Review005,
-if YOU are in a fellowship known as "the way," "the truth," -the group of people who "professed " and the overseers of the EASTERN US was George Walker and WESTERN US was Eldon Tenniswood; -YOU BELONG TO A CHURCH THAT HAS AN EARTHLY FOUNDER We don't need an earthly founder so William is not recognised as such. We have an heavenly founder who is and ever more will remain. This reaction to what is reality is so interesting. I knew about William Irvine for years, and I can understand not letting it bother you & not leaving the truth over it (I didn't), but to refuse to acknowledge reality is bizarre.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2017 21:01:26 GMT -5
History is the art of reconstructing the past, working closely with the information that has been left behind–documents, oral testimony, objects, etc. History is the study of past events in chronological order, tracing them back to their origin and studying their changes or evolution. Historians chronicle change over time, analyze patterns that emerge and provide clearer perspective on the past. Historians are tour guides who collect the historical facts and present them in a coherent way, weaving them into a narrative. The historian's task is to pursue truth wherever it may lead.
The trail of history led straight to Wm Irvine starting the 2x2 Ministry and Church around the turn of the 20th century.
History is inescapable. It is what it is. The past is always with us, even when we're not aware of it or deny it.
If a group does not provide basic information concerning its origin and past, then people will gather some picture of the past from a medley of other resources; from memories, myths, rumors, from their families, their friends, and from every form of human communication from gossip, the printing press and the internet...and there is mass confusion, which God is not the author of...along with lies, falsehoods, deceptions, diversions, equivocation, etc. and "no lie is of the truth" (1 John 2:21).
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Post by revelat10n on Jun 19, 2017 21:18:22 GMT -5
Do you have the whole sermon? If not, then you don't know what you're talking about. It's not dishonest to quote something and give credit to the speaker. Cherie for some who claims to be TELLING THE TRUTH. your dishonesty is clear and undeniable Your thread headline is partial quote "It started in Galilee!! per Gordon Winkler, 1996"Gordon went on to say said But it didn't start there (Galilee) really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven." That is dishonest, it is not TELLING THE TRUTH. Then you wonder why the post Kellyanne Kropp and alternative facts? I think you're missing the point of the sermon - I read that he's saying Jesus ministry didn't just start in Galilee, it was just a landmark for what started in Heaven. He's saying, Heaven to Jesus to Galilee to now
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Post by revelat10n on Jun 19, 2017 21:44:45 GMT -5
I think you're missing the point of the sermon - I read that he's saying Jesus ministry didn't just start in Galilee, it was just a landmark for what started in Heaven. He's saying, Heaven to Jesus to Galilee to now No I didn't miss the point of the sermon. Cherie is the one who missed the point. She has a 'fixation' with 'Galillee' You have understood correctly and so have I....just as I posted: ".....based on the plan that was made in heaven. Then later to use the Bible writer Luke's words ...and began in Galilee'. Then in the late 1800s men and women in their desperation and emptiness they had in the church and from the clergy turned and sought the plan that was made in heaven. The ministry and fellowship that was planned in heaven. They found it! As the Bible teaches "Seek and ye shall find" "Except, his sermon doesn't include the part about men & women in the late 1800's beginning again the way that they believed Jesus planned.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2017 21:59:04 GMT -5
They didn't find it - it was founded in Ireland.
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Post by fred on Jun 19, 2017 22:21:00 GMT -5
The group that I fellowship with was formed in the late 1800's - early 1900's. I have no problems acknowledging this, and for myself, I appreciate the simplicity of participatory fellowship.
However that does not mean that I reject others worshipping in a manner that brings them spiritual connection.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 19, 2017 23:24:58 GMT -5
The worker says:
"When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10, we find some verses. Verse 35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee. Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days. We can go back to this earthly landmark that started in Galilee. But it didn't start there really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven."
Cheree Kropp in her 'telling the truth' style reporting states: It started in Galilee!! per Gordon Winkler, 1996
Kellyanne would be proud of the alternative facts that Cherie comes up with! I'm surprised the physician Luke doesn't also get mention on the TTT website; after all he wrote it! He wrote ".... and began from Galilee....." What exactly is your point Review?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 19, 2017 23:31:42 GMT -5
Who is KellyAnne Kropp? Whole lot of equivocation going on in the replies above.... Some one who provides alternative facts. You have presented a good example of it with this thread. Perhaps its equivocation? I'd say spin doctoring describes your words better? The bible is full of alternative facts. Talking donkeys, sticks into snakes, virgin births, earth and its inhabitants created in seven days, wine into water, a man being swallowed by a fish and spending three days in it's belly. When you preach this nonsense be prepared for some kick back from those who don't believe in rubbish. I don't really care who William Irvine is or was as I have come a long way on my journey to realize that you preachers should be locked up for fraud. You cannot deliver on any one of your promises.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 19, 2017 23:51:15 GMT -5
Review005,
-if YOU are in a fellowship known as "the way," "the truth," -the group of people who "professed " and the overseers of the EASTERN US was George Walker and WESTERN US was Eldon Tenniswood; -YOU BELONG TO A CHURCH THAT HAS AN EARTHLY FOUNDER We don't need an earthly founder so William is not recognised as such. We have an heavenly founder who is and ever more will remain. Speak, -do you think that you would in the "fellowship" or "church" that you are attending right NOW if it weren't for certain men by the names of: George Walker, William Irvine, William Gill, William Carroll, John Hardie who are a part of the history of your "fellowship?"
What other "fellowship" do you think that you would be attending if it wasn't for them?
YOU may not want to "recognize" them, -but that is NOT going to make them go away!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 0:03:18 GMT -5
What exactly is your point Review? My point is that based on Kropp's performance here ; if Trump gets tired of Kellyanne then Cherie would be an ideal replacement 'alternative facts' presenter. Review005, -it is your own "performance" that is appalling.
You don't admit nor appreciate the work that has been done by Cherie.
You are the one trying to use 'alternative facts.'
But you can't fool those of us who have been around a lot longer than you.
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Post by fred on Jun 20, 2017 0:03:23 GMT -5
The group that I fellowship with was formed by men in the late 1800's - early 1900's. I have no problems acknowledging this, and for myself, I appreciate the simplicity of participatory fellowship. However that does not mean that I reject others worshipping in a manner that brings them spiritual connection. Fred are you not going to answer my question? I have answered the question in a clear and concise manner - if that does not suit your ends then it is not my problem. edit: Apologies, I see where I may not have been sufficiently explicit and I have edited.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 20, 2017 0:53:56 GMT -5
I have answered the question in a clear and concise manner - if that does not suit your ends then it is not my problem. Fred, you are playing games; you haven't answered my question.. You know as well as I do that your waffle about 'participatory fellowship' and 'late 1800s' did not answer the question I asked. It was just your attempt to avoid directly and honestly answering the question I asked. The question is "Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder?" a)Yes or no answer, and b)if yes ,then who is founder?
Pretty amazing ;you are an older man and part of the church for many years and can't or won't answer this simple question!!! Wow The same two questions apply to you too Review. Please answer them.
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