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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 20, 2017 1:22:34 GMT -5
Of course I can and will answer the question. NO our fellowship does not have a founder. If you read the posts I have made on this thread you will read the FACTS (not alternative ones either) that explain why the true and correct answer to the question is NO. Fred do you have the integrity and guts to give your plain unambiguous yes/no answer? That is your version of the truth Review. It is easily proved how it started. Your answer does not help your character at all.
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Post by fred on Jun 20, 2017 2:02:56 GMT -5
Of course I can and will answer the question. NO our fellowship does not have a founder. If you read the posts I have made on this thread you will read the FACTS (not alternative ones either) that explain why the true and correct answer to the question is NO. Fred do you have the integrity and guts to give your plain unambiguous yes/no answer? My answer is contained in my above post - you are a serial abuser and I'm going back to not interacting with you.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:04:11 GMT -5
We don't need an earthly founder so William is not recognised as such. We have an heavenly founder who is and ever more will remain. Speak, -do you think that you would in the "fellowship" or "church" that you are attending right NOW if it weren't for certain men by the names of: George Walker, William Irvine, William Gill, William Carroll, John Hardie who are a part of the history of your "fellowship?"
What other "fellowship" do you think that you would be attending if it wasn't for them?
YOU may not want to "recognize" them, -but that is NOT going to make them go away!Yes I would be in this same fellowship even if it were by someone else, I know and believe that God raised up this fellowship and He could have used any person He chose. I don't recognise them as being our founders, Christ is the founder, they are men used by God to bring His message of His Son just as God used the Apostles then and today. I recognise them as men chosen by God to do His bidding, no more no less.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:12:41 GMT -5
We don't need an earthly founder so William is not recognised as such. We have an heavenly founder who is and ever more will remain. This reaction to what is reality is so interesting. I knew about William Irvine for years, and I can understand not letting it bother you & not leaving the truth over it (I didn't), but to refuse to acknowledge reality is bizarre. Refuse to acknowledge what? I don't refuse to acknowledge William as a man chosen by God to perform a work for Him but he is not the founder. If he was the founder then the fellowship would be just of man and not of God. You will or have left of your own volition.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:15:46 GMT -5
No I didn't miss the point of the sermon. Cherie is the one who missed the point. She has a 'fixation' with 'Galillee' You have understood correctly and so have I....just as I posted: ".....based on the plan that was made in heaven. Then later to use the Bible writer Luke's words ...and began in Galilee'. Then in the late 1800s men and women in their desperation and emptiness they had in the church and from the clergy turned and sought the plan that was made in heaven. The ministry and fellowship that was planned in heaven. They found it! As the Bible teaches "Seek and ye shall find" "Except, his sermon doesn't include the part about men & women in the late 1800's beginning again the way that they believed Jesus planned. It didn't have to, they are only men and women.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:17:34 GMT -5
They didn't find it - it was founded in Ireland. If they didn't find it how would they know about it?
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:19:36 GMT -5
The worker says:
"When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10, we find some verses. Verse 35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee. Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days. We can go back to this earthly landmark that started in Galilee. But it didn't start there really. There was a landmark on earth—lined up with the original landmark in Heaven."
Cheree Kropp in her 'telling the truth' style reporting states: It started in Galilee!! per Gordon Winkler, 1996
Kellyanne would be proud of the alternative facts that Cherie comes up with! I'm surprised the physician Luke doesn't also get mention on the TTT website; after all he wrote it! He wrote ".... and began from Galilee....." What exactly is your point Review? It's right in front of you.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:22:55 GMT -5
My point is that based on Kropp's performance here ; if Trump gets tired of Kellyanne then Cherie would be an ideal replacement 'alternative facts' presenter. Review005, -it is your own "performance" that is appalling.
You don't admit nor appreciate the work that has been done by Cherie.
You are the one trying to use 'alternative facts.'
But you can't fool those of us who have been around a lot longer than you.
Being around longer doesn't give you the power of knowledge greater than others.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 2:25:57 GMT -5
I have answered the question in a clear and concise manner - if that does not suit your ends then it is not my problem. Fred, you are playing games; you haven't answered my question.. You know as well as I do that your waffle about 'participatory fellowship' and 'late 1800s' did not answer the question I asked. It was just your attempt to avoid directly and honestly answering the question I asked. The question is "Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder?" a)Yes or no answer, and b)if yes ,then who is founder?
Pretty amazing ;you are an older man and part of the church for many years and can't or won't answer this simple question!!! Wow
Review005 You are the one " playing games and waffling."
I am going to ask YOU something. Let's see what kind of answer will you give.
You are the one that is always putting people into a YES or NO positions while YOU equivocate & hedge to avoid commitment yourself.
So, Review005, -I am going to ask YOU this.
Do you think that you would in the "fellowship," "church" or whatever you want to call it that you are attending right NOW if it weren't for certain men by the names of: George Walker, William Irvine, William Gill, William Carroll, John Hardie?
Their names & photos are found together and are a part of the history of YOUR "fellowship." We may not recognize all of them but we all recognize one or the other of them.
What other "fellowship" do you think that you would be attending right NOW if it wasn't for them?
YOU may want to deny their existence is your feeble denial is NOT going to make them go away!
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 2:30:26 GMT -5
Fred, you are playing games; you haven't answered my question.. You know as well as I do that your waffle about 'participatory fellowship' and 'late 1800s' did not answer the question I asked. It was just your attempt to avoid directly and honestly answering the question I asked. The question is "Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder?" a)Yes or no answer, and b)if yes ,then who is founder?
Pretty amazing ;you are an older man and part of the church for many years and can't or won't answer this simple question!!! Wow
Review005 You are the one " playing games and waffling."
I am going to ask YOU something. Let's see what kind of answer will you give.
You are the one that is always putting people into a YES or NO positions while YOU equivocate & hedge to avoid commitment yourself.
So, Review005, -I am going to ask YOU this.
Do you think that you would in the "fellowship," "church" or whatever you want to call it that you are attending right NOW if it weren't for certain men by the names of: George Walker, William Irvine, William Gill, William Carroll, John Hardie?
Their names & photos are found together and are a part of the history of YOUR "fellowship." We may not recognize all of them but we all recognize one or the other of them.
What other "fellowship" do you think that you would be attending right NOW if it wasn't for them?
YOU may want to deny their existence is your feeble denial is NOT going to make them go away!
Why is it that you can only put forth earthly man when the honour belongs to God? Yes of course you don't believe there is a God so all you have is man to put forward.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 2:33:52 GMT -5
Review005, -it is your own "performance" that is appalling.
You don't admit nor appreciate the work that has been done by Cherie.
You are the one trying to use 'alternative facts.'
But you can't fool those of us who have been around a lot longer than you.
Being around longer doesn't give you the power of knowledge greater than others. Age does give me & many others knowledge of some things that we know because we have experienced them while younger people haven't.
People should know and appreciate their history .
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 20, 2017 3:09:00 GMT -5
Of course I can and will answer the question. NO our fellowship does not have a founder. If you read the posts I have made on this thread you will read the FACTS (not alternative ones either) that explain why the true and correct answer to the question is NO. Fred do you have the integrity and guts to give your plain unambiguous yes/no answer? It's interesting that when I was in my teens that I was told unambiguously that William Irvine was the first worker in our church and it started in the late 1800's. After I was married an English worker came to our home regularly and told us about the early days which started with William Irvine. It was refreshingly honest and unambiguous. Similarly, after The Secret Sect was published the local Head Worker spoke at each of our conventions that "we have a lot to thank William Irvine for". It sounds like you need to brush up on your history and what actually happened. Ross, I know or have known as many of them are tits up now, many Irish people and to them this issue or Willy Irvine was no big deal. They viewed him and his companions as the first worker in their church. What I do find odd is some workers of this modern era who choose to alter history. I find that disingenuous and does no good to their cause.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 3:15:08 GMT -5
Review005 You are the one " playing games and waffling."
I am going to ask YOU something. Let's see what kind of answer will you give.
You are the one that is always putting people into a YES or NO positions while YOU equivocate & hedge to avoid commitment yourself.
So, Review005, -I am going to ask YOU this.
Do you think that you would in the "fellowship," "church" or whatever you want to call it that you are attending right NOW if it weren't for certain men by the names of: George Walker, William Irvine, William Gill, William Carroll, John Hardie?
Their names & photos are found together and are a part of the history of YOUR "fellowship." We may not recognize all of them but we all recognize one or the other of them.
What other "fellowship" do you think that you would be attending right NOW if it wasn't for them?
YOU may want to deny their existence is your feeble denial is NOT going to make them go away!
Why is it that you can only put forth earthly man when the honour belongs to God? Yes of course you don't believe there is a God so all you have is man to put forward. That has nothing to do with what I know about how this "fellowship" started.
I knew it from the time I was quite young and heard it when my mother & father were talking together. My father had been in the work.
It was men who started the "fellowship" as it is called today.
It seems to me those who want to deny that is because they want to continue to believe the "fellowship" is the ONLY "TRUE WAY."
People are afraid that if they admit that this "fellowship" was started by certain people at a certain time in history that then they would also have to recognize that it like all other "churches" or "fellowships" that was started though out history.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 20, 2017 3:23:12 GMT -5
Exactly DM and I think this is because they are using their only true way mantra as a selling point to set themselves up as better or different. Once people work out that this is not the case then people will leave, many people and then the dosh stops rolling in. So the salesmen, sorry, preachers swing into action to prop up the story.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 3:46:49 GMT -5
Being around longer doesn't give you the power of knowledge greater than others. Age does give me & many others knowledge of some things that we know because we have experienced them while younger people haven't.
People should know and appreciate their history .
Of some things not all. We know things you don't know. I know my history and appreciate some not all.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 3:49:15 GMT -5
Of course I can and will answer the question. NO our fellowship does not have a founder. If you read the posts I have made on this thread you will read the FACTS (not alternative ones either) that explain why the true and correct answer to the question is NO. Fred do you have the integrity and guts to give your plain unambiguous yes/no answer? It's interesting that when I was in my teens that I was told unambiguously that William Irvine was the first worker in our church and it started in the late 1800's. After I was married an English worker came to our home regularly and told us about the early days which started with William Irvine. It was refreshingly honest and unambiguous. Similarly, after The Secret Sect was published the local Head Worker spoke at each of our conventions that "we have a lot to thank William Irvine for". It sounds like you need to brush up on your history and what actually happened. Yes God used him, but for me the thanks and honour go to God.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 3:52:45 GMT -5
Refuse to acknowledge what? I don't refuse to acknowledge William as a man chosen by God to perform a work for Him but he is not the founder. If he was the founder then the fellowship would be just of man and not of God. You will or have left of your own volition. There are plenty of Christian fellowships which are of God but like yours have started at a particular time. The fellowship started in the late 1800's, others have started at different times. If our faith or identity is in a particular fellowship or church then we have a major problem. Our faith and identity is clearly, based on Scripture, to be in Christ only. Anything else is just an idol. If they were of God there would be no division. If our faith were not united in Christ we would have a major problem, there is a major problem. Christ brought unity, where is it?
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 3:56:04 GMT -5
Why is it that you can only put forth earthly man when the honour belongs to God? Yes of course you don't believe there is a God so all you have is man to put forward. That has nothing to do with what I know about how this "fellowship" started.
I knew it from the time I was quite young and heard it when my mother & father were talking together. My father had been in the work.
It was men who started the "fellowship" as it is called today.
It seems to me those who want to deny that is because they want to continue to believe the "fellowship" is the ONLY "TRUE WAY."
People are afraid that if they admit that this "fellowship" was started by certain people at a certain time in history that then they would also have to recognize that it like all other "churches" or "fellowships" that was started though out history.Honour to men from men about men ends at the grave and is just a passing show. If started by man it belongs to man not God.
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Post by fred on Jun 20, 2017 3:59:35 GMT -5
The group that I fellowship which was formed by men in the late 1800's - early 1900's. I have no problems acknowledging this, and for myself, I appreciate the simplicity of participatory fellowship. However that does not mean that I reject others worshipping in a manner that brings them spiritual connection. Fred are you not going to answer my question? Here is a post which contains an edit which had been subsequently made. The question was asked, Did my church have an earthly founder? I believe my post answers that question, but I'm getting old and not as sharp as I once was. Would other posters like to chime in here as I hate making mistakes?
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 4:14:07 GMT -5
I guess your church Fred was started by a man the same as every church including the 2x2s. The founder of Christianity is Jesus and the foundation stone is Jesus but individual church fellowships were started by men.
The 2x2s were started by William Irvine the same as the Mormons were started by Joseph Smith. Did the Mormon church start on the shores or Galaliee or by men? The same goes for the workers and their church known as the 2x2s on here.
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Post by PrueBert on Jun 20, 2017 4:22:48 GMT -5
I guess your church Fred was started by a man the same as every church including the 2x2s. They founder of Christianity is Jesus and the foundation stone is Jesus but individual church fellowships were started by men. The 2x2s were started by William Irvine the same as the Mormons were started by Joseph Smith. Did the Mormon church start on the shores or Galaliee or by men? The same goes for the workers and their church known as the 2x2s on here. Shockingly bad analogy Enuf. Joseph Smith started a new faith, ie Mormonism. Complete with its own bible. Quoting Jesus in the New World.
The Roman Catholic Church claims it goes back to "Saint Peter" It doesn't. But if it DID it would make no difference - you don't judge a church by when that church started, you judge it by when it doctrine started, and Catholics have an ever-mutating doctrine that started starting about the time they broke from the Apostolic Church.
nb notice how a thread on Irvine and the Truth is so much more popular with people here than a thread about Jesus and the Truth.
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 4:23:09 GMT -5
Ask yourself speak, where is the unity? Why is your church not in unity with the Body Of Christ? I.e. other churches? Is Christ divided?
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 4:31:56 GMT -5
Apply it to the Church of England or Baptists or Methodists or even the Waldensians, Bert. They were all started by a man or men the same as your church was started by a man. Again Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. The founded of Christanity, the foundation of our faith, but individual churches were started by men.
Interesting that growing up in meetings the workers preached that unlike other churches they were not started by men. So either all churches were started by men or no church was started by men. So all churches go back to Galaliee or no church does.
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Post by speak on Jun 20, 2017 4:34:35 GMT -5
Ask yourself speak, where is the unity? Why is your church not in unity with the Body Of Christ? I.e. other churches? Is Christ divided? No I ask you, why are other churches not in unity and in a lot of cases not in harmony in what you term as the body of Christ. No Christ is not divided, you'red have to have Him first, but then again you couldn't because you are divided.
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 4:41:20 GMT -5
Many many churches are in harmony. I would say the majority of churches are in harmony. Why is your church not in harmony with the Body of Christ with Christ at the head and chief corner stone.
When a visiting speaker comes to town people from many different churches go to hear them. Christian TV or radio are supported by many churches. Missionary organisations are supported by different churches. Many things are inter denominational. Supported by a number of different churches
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 5:07:20 GMT -5
William Irvine started your church review. You claimed you grew up knowing that in your earlier posts. Now you are trying to say he didn't.
Hopefully Jesus is the founder of our faith but he did not start your church? William Irvine did. Starting Christianity is not the same as starting a church.
Christianity started at Galilee but tell me a church that was started there? Your church is no different from any other Review. It was started by a man the same as every other church. There is nothing unique a about it in regards to it being started by a man. Obviously you're not honest enough to admit it was started by William Irvine.
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Post by PrueBert on Jun 20, 2017 5:16:08 GMT -5
Fred are you not going to answer my question? Here is a post which contains an edit which had been subsequently made. The question was asked, Did my church have an earthly founder? I believe my post answers that question, but I'm getting old and not as sharp as I once was. Would other posters like to chime in here as I hate making mistakes? There's two questions here - and one is quite sly. Q - does my church have a founder? Depends what you mean by "church" and "founder" both which are never defined (just like The Truth is never defined) if you mean my physical church, yes, it has lots of founders - those generations of preachers who left their homes, careers and physical possessions to preach the Gospel. if you mean The Truth then see my threads #1 What is the Truth to us? #2 Did the Truth start with Galilee.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 5:37:57 GMT -5
Ask yourself speak, where is the unity? Why is your church not in unity with the Body Of Christ? I.e. other churches? Is Christ divided? No I ask you, why are other churches not in unity and in a lot of cases not in harmony in what you term as the body of Christ. No Christ is not divided, you'red have to have Him first, but then again you couldn't because you are divided. speak can you give us some examples of " other churches not in unity" ? There are plenty of divisions in your church, start with the differences between workers in regard to divorce & re-marriage.
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