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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2017 2:46:58 GMT -5
Yup. Lots of times what we consider to be the truth we do so short of direct evidence. Nah I have never seen a theist yet that needed 'direct evidence' in order to believe in things that aren't possible in the physical world. After all isn't a strong faith in things unseen the very thing theists are expected to do? You know, if they would just admit that they believed it because of their faith and not try to insist that there is actual physical evidence I would come nearer to listening to them.
But it seems they want their 2000 year old way of understanding an incident but then live in our own century where we understand it couldn't have happened that way.
And that doesn't mean I discount how people understood events in their time, -that was just the way most of those in their time understood such events.
They BELIEVED that was how things happened.
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2017 14:57:50 GMT -5
Nah I have never seen a theist yet that needed 'direct evidence' in order to believe in things that aren't possible in the physical world. After all isn't a strong faith in things unseen the very thing theists are expected to do? You know, if they would just admit that they believed it because of their faith and not try to insist that there is actual physical evidence I would come nearer to listening to them.
But it seems they want their 2000 year old way of understanding an incident but then live in our own century where we understand it couldn't have happened that way.
And that doesn't mean I discount how people understood events in their time, -that was just the way most of those in their time understood such events.
They BELIEVED that was how things happened.Yes exactly. I understand that people believe a whole bunch of different things and I respect them when they admit that is it just a belief that can't be proved. That's what religious belief is all about. Things people believe that can't be proven. New age beliefs can be the same, belief but no proof that they work for example. But when someone says there is evidence that Jesus lived, was born to a virgin, died and rose again, well, that's just not credible imo. No more credible than all the other God men that were born to virgins and died and rose again. At least those religions understand that these things didn't really happen in the physical sense but were symbolism. Christianity decided to take the same story and turn it into a real life happening instead of something spiritual.
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Post by Lee on Apr 12, 2017 0:01:01 GMT -5
Or people turned something that happened into something that didnt. If people saw a resurection today they'd be like doctor, I need my prescription tweaked.
Whats changed? Why were people receptive to god then but not today? Has our ego shifted for the better from god to ourselves? Have we learned all we need to learn about ourselves yet? Theres something to say for being receptive.
(With apologies to the thread. This off topic)
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2017 1:54:40 GMT -5
Or people turned something that happened into something that didnt. If people saw a resurection today they'd be like doctor, I need my prescription tweaked. Whats changed? Why were people receptive to god then but not today? Has our ego shifted for the better from god to ourselves? Have we learned all we need to learn about ourselves yet? Theres something to say for being receptive. In that day it wasn't unusual for people to see something happen but not understand how it happened and attribute it to supernatural sources. Whats changed from those days has nothing to do with those people being more "receptive to god" (or gods).
Nothing wrong with us being "receptive" to new ideas as long as we keep our feet firmly planted on the ground and not allow ourselves to fly off into that tempting rarified ether of fantasy; -unless of course you are writing Fantasy Fiction!
I understand how people can honestly believe that their Near Death Experiences came from outside their own brain and was totally apart from their own minds.
Their own mind set is already "receptive" to believe that kind of supernatural thing could happen.
I could have written a great fantasy about my own experience and made a bundle.
I probably wouldn't have done a very good job of it though, -because I would have known it wasn't true.
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Post by Lee on Apr 12, 2017 1:58:27 GMT -5
How would you know it wasnt "true"?
....Have all persons experiencing NDE's been similarly primed for it? I doubt it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2017 2:20:54 GMT -5
How would you know it wasnt "true"? ....Have all persons experiencing NDE's been similarly primed for it? I doubt it. I would say that those people experiencing NDE's and convinced that it happened outside of themselves WERE primed to believe it by their religious indoctrination.
The reason was that they had just never questioned THAT indoctrination!
They had just never given that indoctrination any scrutiny as to it's validity.
Whereby I had given my religious indoctrination a LOT of scrutiny!
I knew that what was happening to me was not normal.
That is why I insisted that a CAT scan of my brain be done in spite the doctor wanting to send me back home!
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Post by Lee on Apr 12, 2017 11:58:48 GMT -5
Multiple people have reported a common UFO sighting. It doesnt mean multiple people need their medications adjusted or tumors removed. It could, but its unlikely.
Stuff does happen in the experiences of humankind that isnt readily explainable. If Id witnessed a remarkable man in the context of a remarkable event, I might take it as a sign-miracle too. I might say "It really happened. I really done seen it happen ma'am."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 12, 2017 14:22:33 GMT -5
How would you know it wasnt "true"? ....Have all persons experiencing NDE's been similarly primed for it? I doubt it. I would say that those people experiencing NDE's and convinced that it happened outside of themselves WERE primed to believe it by their religious indoctrination.
The reason was that they had just never questioned THAT indoctrination!
They had just never given that indoctrination any scrutiny as to it's validity.
Whereby I had given my religious indoctrination a LOT of scrutiny!
I knew that what was happening to me was not normal.
That is why I insisted that a CAT scan of my brain be done in spite the doctor wanting to send me back home! Dont think that can be said with impunity. Otherwise you can't explain why innocent children have come back and told same stories that adults have told about heaven
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 12, 2017 14:24:16 GMT -5
Multiple people have reported a common UFO sighting. It doesnt mean multiple people need their medications adjusted or tumors removed. It could, but its unlikely. Stuff does happen in the experiences of humankind that isnt readily explainable. If Id witnessed a remarkable man in the context of a remarkable event, I might take it as a sign-miracle too. I might say "It really happened. I really done seen it happen ma'am." Yhe authorities are saying someone on earth has connected with aliens in outer space and wr on earth may live to regret it
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2017 1:06:34 GMT -5
I would say that those people experiencing NDE's and convinced that it happened outside of themselves WERE primed to believe it by their religious indoctrination.
The reason was that they had just never questioned THAT indoctrination!
They had just never given that indoctrination any scrutiny as to it's validity.
Whereby I had given my religious indoctrination a LOT of scrutiny!
I knew that what was happening to me was not normal.
That is why I insisted that a CAT scan of my brain be done in spite the doctor wanting to send me back home! Don't think that can be said with impunity. Otherwise you can't explain why innocent children have come back and told same stories that adults have told about heaven I am not sure what you mean in using the word "impunity."
impunity meaning: exemption or freedom from punishment, harm, or loss.
Nor do I understand why it would make any difference whether it was an adult or child.
Remember the book where a little boy claimed he met Jesus in heaven during a Near-Death Experience?
He claimed to have ascended to heaven and met Jesus during a near death experience in 2004 then later recanted his story.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2017 1:13:48 GMT -5
Multiple people have reported a common UFO sighting. It doesnt mean multiple people need their medications adjusted or tumors removed. It could, but its unlikely. Stuff does happen in the experiences of humankind that isnt readily explainable. If Id witnessed a remarkable man in the context of a remarkable event, I might take it as a sign-miracle too. I might say "It really happened. I really done seen it happen ma'am." Let's define UFO's first, Lee.
UFO -Unidentified Flying Object
Once it is identified it is no longer an UFO.
Of course "Stuff does happen in the experiences of humankind that isn't readily explainable."
That is why humankind was bent on explaining it and not always being able to do so, filled in that gap with a god.
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2017 10:11:19 GMT -5
Thats an assumption. It could be that we would not exist "bent on explaining things" if it were not in fact for a god.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2017 13:44:16 GMT -5
The brain is capable of being quite delusional. I think that's what's happening in the brain when it is shutting down and under a great deal of stress. I don't question the experiences people have when they are dying but I do question the interpretation of what it is. It would be quite normal for any brain to try to make sense of what was happening to it in the early stages of death. It would be based on prior understanding of the world because that's all it has to pull from. When the person is brought back I truly believe that people think that they had died and seen something. I just don't believe that what they saw had anything to do with an afterlife, but rather, a brain trying to make sense of it's experience, a body shutting down.
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2017 16:52:41 GMT -5
Thats an assumption. Our local and limited conscious experiences could be part of a greater whole. Why do most of us feel like relationships are vital to our identity and well being?
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2017 17:03:57 GMT -5
Why did you pull your post marie? I was specifically responding to your echo of snows. Were not just VRMS. Virtual reality modules, or brains as you call them.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2017 17:34:28 GMT -5
Thats an assumption. Our local and limited conscious experiences could be part of a greater whole. Why do most of us feel like relationships are vital to our identity and well being? Lee, -you are talking about conscious experiences of the "mind" that is functioning when the "brain" is working in a normal way.
In NDE's that "brain" is under stress.
I don't think we need a PHd in medicine or science to notice that when the "brain" is malfunctioning under disease that indeed the "mind" is affected.
examples: Alzheimer's or Schizophrenia
But just let someone who believes in their "mind" that they have gone to "heaven" when the "brain" is indeed malfunctioning and viola!
You have an instant bunch of people who want to believe that god is the cause!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2017 17:37:01 GMT -5
Why did you pull your post marie? I was specifically responding to your echo of snows. Were not just VRMS. Virtual reality modules, or brains as you call them. Sorry, I was having trouble with posting the reason I pulled it,
I reframed it
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2017 18:30:04 GMT -5
Well if thats the only problem we encounter today we'll be doing "famously", as they say.
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2017 18:32:05 GMT -5
Thats an assumption. Our local and limited conscious experiences could be part of a greater whole. Why do most of us feel like relationships are vital to our identity and well being? Lee, -you are talking about conscious experiences of the "mind" that is functioning when the "brain" is working in a normal way.
In NDE's that "brain" is under stress.
I don't think we need a PHd in medicine or science to notice that when the "brain" is malfunctioning under disease that indeed the "mind" is affected.
examples: Alzheimer's or Schizophrenia
But just let someone who believes in their "mind" that they have gone to "heaven" when the "brain" is indeed malfunctioning and viola!
You have an instant bunch of people who want to believe that god is the cause!Its complicated. I simply object to the either or theory of mind... Thats its all physical or all mental or spiritual. I believe these domains are as complex as the human being is.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2017 22:31:52 GMT -5
Lee, -you are talking about conscious experiences of the "mind" that is functioning when the "brain" is working in a normal way.
In NDE's that "brain" is under stress.
I don't think we need a PHd in medicine or science to notice that when the "brain" is malfunctioning under disease that indeed the "mind" is affected.
examples: Alzheimer's or Schizophrenia
But just let someone who believes in their "mind" that they have gone to "heaven" when the "brain" is indeed malfunctioning and viola!
You have an instant bunch of people who want to believe that god is the cause! Its complicated. I simply object to the either or theory of mind... Thats its all physical or all mental or spiritual. I believe these domains are as complex as the human being is. I understand that.
You betcha' its complicated!
We are just scratching the surface of what we know about about our brain!
But we do know that when we look back at our past and didn't know what caused something like Schizophrenia, -people filled in their LACK of knowledge with a "cause" where they saw the person as either replying to a god OR are were possessed by Satan.
Although we still don't know near all we would like to about the cause of Schizophrenia; -but we do know we now have medication that controls the symptoms and we can actually see that difference in the person when they are taking their medication. So we have to come to the conclusion that they are not talking to "god" nor being possessed by demons!
I think that the difference is that although we know that our "brain" is an organ like other organs of our bodies our "brain" & affects how we think and it affects the whole way in how we perceive ourselves as a person who is different from any other person.
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2017 22:50:42 GMT -5
Yeah? My experience and earned concept of reality is in the absence of goodness, nature abhors a vacuum and will fill it with rats and predators and things that creep in the night.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2017 0:23:31 GMT -5
Yeah? My experience and earned concept of reality is in the absence of goodness, nature abhors a vacuum and will fill it with rats and predators and things that creep in the night. I'm sorry, Lee.
You must have had some bad experiences.
Being diabetic also takes a toll on how we feel, -that's for sure.
I have been lucky.
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Post by magpie on Apr 14, 2017 7:32:25 GMT -5
Remember the subtle change the 2bees made to that great hymn? Changing it from "Christ my God" to "Christ my Lord". Thus removing Jesus from the Godhead!!!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 14, 2017 10:52:27 GMT -5
Thats an assumption. Our local and limited conscious experiences could be part of a greater whole. Why do most of us feel like relationships are vital to our identity and well being? Lee, -you are talking about conscious experiences of the "mind" that is functioning when the "brain" is working in a normal way.
In NDE's that "brain" is under stress.
I don't think we need a PHd in medicine or science to notice that when the "brain" is malfunctioning under disease that indeed the "mind" is affected.
examples: Alzheimer's or Schizophrenia
But just let someone who believes in their "mind" that they have gone to "heaven" when the "brain" is indeed malfunctioning and viola!
You have an instant bunch of people who want to believe that god is the cause!I disagree that in NDE that the brain is in distress. When I had my NDE my mind had no recognition of what was going onin my body. Furthermore I ddidn't care. It's like a total disconnect between body and brain. But definitely not stressful. It's more like entering into a new capacity mentally not totally unlike when a person attains a new job that fits their whole being. I.e. When I was able to go into the surgical theater, I remember that as the most mind-occupying all the way around. I was so happy to be. Able to be there that I didn't register any type of fears normal to being in new circumstances. The NDE was very similar. No fears, just wide-eyed interest in what was going around. As in "O boy! A new place for learning!"
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2017 15:59:06 GMT -5
Lee, -you are talking about conscious experiences of the "mind" that is functioning when the "brain" is working in a normal way.
In NDE's that "brain" is under stress.
I don't think we need a PHd in medicine or science to notice that when the "brain" is malfunctioning under disease that indeed the "mind" is affected.
examples: Alzheimer's or Schizophrenia
But just let someone who believes in their "mind" that they have gone to "heaven" when the "brain" is indeed malfunctioning and viola!
You have an instant bunch of people who want to believe that god is the cause! I disagree that in NDE that the brain is in distress. When I had my NDE my mind had no recognition of what was going on in my body. Furthermore I didn't care. It's like a total disconnect between body and brain. But definitely not stressful. It's more like entering into a new capacity mentally not totally unlike when a person attains a new job that fits their whole being. I.e. When I was able to go into the surgical theater, I remember that as the most mind-occupying all the way around. I was so happy to be. Able to be there that I didn't register any type of fears normal to being in new circumstances. The NDE was very similar. No fears, just wide-eyed interest in what was going around. As in "O boy! A new place for learning!" That is interesting, -because when I was having this problem in the Emergency room, -I also felt as you describe. It was great! I wasn't feeling any "distress." Here I am lying in the ER bed and looking at all these pictures streaming across the ceiling overhead. They were all different yet were all contained within themselves and NOT bizarre in any way. I even laughed because one was was comical!
The difference between you and me seems to be that you "disagree that in NDE that the brain is in distress" but I KNEW it was not normal for my brain to act that way, -that there was something wrong going on.
I knew that even though I, -like yourself, -wasn't feeling "distressed," I KNEW my brain was "stressed" in some way.
That was why when the emergency room doctor was going to send me home I insisted that they first do a scan of my brain!
He said he would do one if it made me feel better.
Scan was done and I'm off I go in ambulance to a different hospital.
In both the ambulance and in the hospital the pictures continued.
Here my daughter said she was worrying about what was wrong with me and I am obviously enjoying the experience!
The exception between you and me seems to be that I KNEW it was not normal for my brain to act that way, -that there was something wrong going on in my head, -I didn't know what, but I knew something was!
I wasn't having any kind of "spiritual" experience, - I was having a "brain" problem.
Unlike you, -even though I wasn't FEELING emotionally "stressed;" I KNEW my brain was being "stressed" in some way.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2017 16:14:57 GMT -5
Thats an assumption. Our local and limited conscious experiences could be part of a greater whole. Why do most of us feel like relationships are vital to our identity and well being? Probably because coexisting with others was something that helped our survival. It wasn't necessarily the survival of the fittest but more an ability to live in a harmonious cooperative manner with others helping to protect and provide for each other. Humans needed each other for protection against animals that were far stronger and faster. Groups helped them survive. Our brains are hard wired in different ways just like other species have many instinctual patterns that help them in their survival.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2017 16:25:21 GMT -5
Lee, -you are talking about conscious experiences of the "mind" that is functioning when the "brain" is working in a normal way.
In NDE's that "brain" is under stress.
I don't think we need a PHd in medicine or science to notice that when the "brain" is malfunctioning under disease that indeed the "mind" is affected.
examples: Alzheimer's or Schizophrenia
But just let someone who believes in their "mind" that they have gone to "heaven" when the "brain" is indeed malfunctioning and viola!
You have an instant bunch of people who want to believe that god is the cause! I disagree that in NDE that the brain is in distress. When I had my NDE my mind had no recognition of what was going onin my body. Furthermore I ddidn't care. It's like a total disconnect between body and brain. But definitely not stressful. It's more like entering into a new capacity mentally not totally unlike when a person attains a new job that fits their whole being. I.e. When I was able to go into the surgical theater, I remember that as the most mind-occupying all the way around. I was so happy to be. Able to be there that I didn't register any type of fears normal to being in new circumstances. The NDE was very similar. No fears, just wide-eyed interest in what was going around. As in "O boy! A new place for learning!" I'm not surprised that you felt no distress, that is exactly what I would expect. Our brains try to make sense of things and protect us as best they can from stress. However, when we are dying how can the brain NOT be stressed? I would also expect a type of disconnect like you experienced. The brain is amazing and can make us believe and think just about anything. But when it is malfunctioning can we trust what it is feeding us? For me, I would not trust anything I was being fed by a brain that was dying if I could still be aware enough to know I was dying of course. But that is the beauty of things isn't it. Each of us has a different perspective of events. I am glad that your brain made it an experience that didn't bring you fear and was interesting. Many do have that experience. I have heard of some negative NDE experiences but they are not as common as good, euphoric ones.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 14, 2017 17:40:07 GMT -5
I disagree that in NDE that the brain is in distress. When I had my NDE my mind had no recognition of what was going on in my body. Furthermore I didn't care. It's like a total disconnect between body and brain. But definitely not stressful. It's more like entering into a new capacity mentally not totally unlike when a person attains a new job that fits their whole being. I.e. When I was able to go into the surgical theater, I remember that as the most mind-occupying all the way around. I was so happy to be. Able to be there that I didn't register any type of fears normal to being in new circumstances. The NDE was very similar. No fears, just wide-eyed interest in what was going around. As in "O boy! A new place for learning!" That is interesting, -because when I was having this problem in the Emergency room, -I also felt as you describe. It was great! I wasn't feeling any "distress." Here I am lying in the ER bed and looking at all these pictures streaming across the ceiling overhead. They were all different yet were all contained within themselves and NOT bizarre in any way. I even laughed because one was was comical!
The difference between you and me seems to be that you "disagree that in NDE that the brain is in distress" but I KNEW it was not normal for my brain to act that way, -that there was something wrong going on.
I knew that even though I, -like yourself, -wasn't feeling "distressed," I KNEW my brain was "stressed" in some way.
That was why when the emergency room doctor was going to send me home I insisted that they first do a scan of my brain!
He said he would do one if it made me feel better.
Scan was done and I'm off I go in ambulance to a different hospital.
In both the ambulance and in the hospital the pictures continued.
Here my daughter said she was worrying about what was wrong with me and I am obviously enjoying the experience!
The exception between you and me seems to be that I KNEW it was not normal for my brain to act that way, -that there was something wrong going on in my head, -I didn't know what, but I knew something was!
I wasn't having any kind of "spiritual" experience, - I was having a "brain" problem.
Unlike you, -even though I wasn't FEELING emotionally "stressed;" I KNEW my brain was being "stressed" in some way.
I had an hallucinogenic experience like yours when I had my magnesium depleted heart attack. There was sheet after sheet of lined paper before me and it had information on them. I lay there reading these sheets of info and as soonas I finished one the next one floated right in front of me. My ICU nurse came in and I told him I was having hallucinations and told him exactly what was in those opapers. He was amazed and said that it made so much sense in the info, that if he didn't know hallucinations weren't all that uncommon in such cases as mine, he'd think I'd been actually reading some kindiof actual printed papers. The only thing I was aware if otherwise was the horrible pains every episode of pvc's and pac's which came in about every five to ten minutes. It was like somebody was pushing the breath out of me. But in the other account I was not aware of any physical happenings. But was told about them later. The drs and nurses says my eyes were open and I would grunt after they shouted my name a few times, but to them it was like I really was not there. Scared them crazy. I told them I. didn't understand their fear at all for I was afraid but I sure was fascinated at what was going on in my mind and psychological atmosphere. The Dr. Was one I worked with in surgery. He said I had a very intent look on my face just like he'd seen me have when we were working on a very complex case. He said he remembered one time the circulating nurse had to callmy name several times to ask me ssomething. He said she got real perturbed about, but he told her my mindwas stayed right where it sshould be.. In fact he answered her question. There was a great difference in the two experiences. The heatattack one I knew was more deadly yet I was reading info.
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