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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 5, 2017 12:03:04 GMT -5
Jesus is speaking to the church in Philadelphia that have kept Jesus' word and had not denied his name. That in the end of things they will be rewarded for their belief in the Lord Jesus Christ and kept his word. It's said in the bible that the saints will judge the world. So in that light this verse speaks to that day and those if Satan's synagogue will fall down before the church of Philadelphia begging for mercy in their judgment. By this humble please Satan's own are recognizing the Lord's love and approval of the church in Philadelphia. And recognizing their fate due to what they've done. So you're OK with the worship in this verse? Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. I'll try to give you an example of what I think this worship means. When I was young and living with my Gram who was one of the earliest converts for the US workers, and was very into being a believer in Jesus Christ. She was a bit strict with us kids but not to our detriment. When push came to shove, the neighbors would vouch for Gram and say she was a good and godly woman. However other times they were courteous in a distant sort of way as if afraid something might rub off onto them. So in the long run, the neighbors respected Gram above all others.
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Post by snow on Apr 5, 2017 12:48:41 GMT -5
Ross, as much as I wanted to have a god that would comfort me and offer me eternal life I couldn't find one bit of evidence that one existed. There is no proof there is a god that I have ever seen and most things people determine are god's work can be explained with no evidence of god necessary. I don't wish to belittle anyone who does believe, that is their right, but I do wish people wouldn't state there is 'significant evidence' for religious beliefs. There just isn't as far as I can see. Faith in the Bible is not considered proof anymore than faith in the Quran is considered proof. Believe, have faith, that's your right, but saying there is evidence, that I feel is misleading. Thanks Snow. There is significant evidence for two events - the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. People have a choice whether they believe in those two events or not. I choose to - others do not. In terms of Christ living today - I have no direct evidence but I believe He is because of His resurrection and ascension (which is evidenced) and because what God has promised (including Christ's foreknowledge of what lay ahead) has come to pass. I constantly see changed lives today when people turn to Christ. Similar to the changes that occurred in Paul. On the "comfort" front my relationship with God is not based on needing comfort. Sure, comfort during grief and hard times is important and I believe God is a God of comfort. My relationship with God is based on love and what He has done for me personally....and all humans collectively. It is one of hope, not hope as in the possibility that something in the future might transpire but certain and sure hope. As I sit here typing, I've thought a lot over the years about what part emotion plays in a decision to serve and follow Jesus. I'm not a particularly emotional person and when I think about Jesus, who He is I approach it rationally. I find it very difficult to contemplate a universe and the way in which it works without a higher being in control of all things. In my view, that is reinforced by that higher being's interactions with humanity over history. I see hundreds of people doing Christianity Explored every year and many making an informed choice to turn to Christ. These courses are not like 2x2 missions - there is no emotional humdrum - last opportunity stuff etc. They work through a gospel like Mark (or another series uses John) and go through it as it is presented in a very rational way. There are no hymns like "Perishing" sung - no hymns at all. Just a video introducing the topic, discussion, Q&A etc. There is no public prayer - people are simply exploring a book of the Bible. Ross thank you for your answer. I don't understand the decision but I respect it. I have not seen any evidence for either Jesus birth, life or resurrection other than in the Bible so for me they are not proven but something that is taken on faith and part of Christian belief. As so said, some chose to believe it and others need more evidence before they can. That's just how it is I guess.
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Post by fixit on Apr 5, 2017 14:05:20 GMT -5
So you're OK with the worship in this verse? Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. I'll try to give you an example of what I think this worship means. When I was young and living with my Gram who was one of the earliest converts for the US workers, and was very into being a believer in Jesus Christ. She was a bit strict with us kids but not to our detriment. When push came to shove, the neighbors would vouch for Gram and say she was a good and godly woman. However other times they were courteous in a distant sort of way as if afraid something might rub off onto them. So in the long run, the neighbors respected Gram above all others. Can you see the double standard? Worship means worship....until it doesn't fit with trinitarianism. And as we saw yesterday, the source of trinitarian discussion is vitally important....unless it actually supports the trinitarian viewpoint.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 5, 2017 14:54:54 GMT -5
I'll try to give you an example of what I think this worship means. When I was young and living with my Gram who was one of the earliest converts for the US workers, and was very into being a believer in Jesus Christ. She was a bit strict with us kids but not to our detriment. When push came to shove, the neighbors would vouch for Gram and say she was a good and godly woman. However other times they were courteous in a distant sort of way as if afraid something might rub off onto them. So in the long run, the neighbors respected Gram above all others. Can you see the double standard? Worship means worship....until it doesn't fit with trinitarianism. And as we saw yesterday, the source of trinitarian discussion is vitally important....unless it actually supports the trinitarian viewpoint. No I don't see that! I gave you even an example or two. Those who visit royalty learn to bow low or curtsey very deep. Both actions are not the same before non-royalty. There is a depth and grace to a royal intended bow. Likewise the curtsey. This royal curtsey and royal bow was practiced to the inth degree to where the supplicant didn't overbalance in the midst of the courtesy. Now as to worshipping Jesus or the Father? I believe it is a falling-down-on-the-face obeisance. For me I suspect it'll happen so fast that I won't be aware if anything but the Lord's presence and thejoy that is brought by just being in his presence. For those tthat haven't believed in Jesus it the Father, when every eye that sees him and every knee will bow! I think those of Satan's synagogue will bow their knee in fear and respect not humble, loving adoration obeisance. JMO As to bowing before the saints, again theworld will bow down iin respect and fear and likely pleaing that the saints would put in a good word for them. Kinda like the five foolish asked the five wise for some if their oil.
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Post by fixit on Apr 5, 2017 15:27:48 GMT -5
Can you see the double standard? Worship means worship....until it doesn't fit with trinitarianism. And as we saw yesterday, the source of trinitarian discussion is vitally important....unless it actually supports the trinitarian viewpoint. No I don't see that! I gave you even an example or two. Those who visit royalty learn to bow low or curtsey very deep. Both actions are not the same before non-royalty. There is a depth and grace to a royal intended bow. Likewise the curtsey. This royal curtsey and royal bow was practiced to the inth degree to where the supplicant didn't overbalance in the midst of the courtesy. Now as to worshipping Jesus or the Father? I believe it is a falling-down-on-the-face obeisance. For me I suspect it'll happen so fast that I won't be aware if anything but the Lord's presence and thejoy that is brought by just being in his presence. For those tthat haven't believed in Jesus it the Father, when every eye that sees him and every knee will bow! I think those of Satan's synagogue will bow their knee in fear and respect not humble, loving adoration obeisance. JMO As to bowing before the saints, again theworld will bow down iin respect and fear and likely pleaing that the saints would put in a good word for them. Kinda like the five foolish asked the five wise for some if their oil. So the word "worship" in scripture means "a low bow or curtsy very deep"?
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Post by Grant on Apr 5, 2017 15:54:40 GMT -5
So if we do a low bow or curtsy to the king are we worshipping them? To me, worship is much deeper. How many people fall flat on their faces in front of the king? I wonder what he would say if they did. They would probably remove the person. I can believe that people would fall down and worship Jesus though.
Fixit, do not the meeting hymns sing praise and worship to Jesus? I thought Jesus only was their message. Does that mean The Father is not your message too as you separate them so distinctly. When we sing Jesus only is our message those who see him as God are also proclaiming God in those words.
I also wonder how you interpret the words of Jesus in Revelations 1: 8?
Like Alistair, I think it was, pointed out, you and Maryhig only quote verses which relate to Jesus human nature not his God or divine nature. Jesus was fully human and fully God. He had the 2 natures unlike us who are 100% human.
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Post by continuer on Apr 5, 2017 16:10:57 GMT -5
Reading today in Matthew's Gospel, I noticed these words "Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying "Behold a virgin shall be with a child, and shall bring forth a son and they shall call his name Emanuel" which being interpreted is God with us." "God with us" - how wonderful.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Apr 5, 2017 17:01:23 GMT -5
It's all about context.
Yes, humans 'bow down' to God as God, and we 'bow down' to other humans as mere humans.
No one disputes that, Fixit and friends. It's a red herring! Read on.
In the latter, of course people are offering respect and reverence to fellow human beings with limited authority and power - and God allows that as it is part of human society and interaction.
Hence the quite appropriate reference to the word 'elohim' that Fixit mentions as referring to human judges, as they have a limited and, at best, 'derivative' form of authority in human society that reflects in a dim way the authority of God (without necessarily being or having the authority of God).
These verses and nuances have long been known to me, as well as the Uncial text and the late creation of chapters and verses and word separations.
This is elementary bible college stuff and does not in the least affect the doctrinal issues we are talking about in regards to who Christ is in relation to God. Why? Because it is usually clear from the context!
People can bow down, rightly or wrongly, to anyone, if they perceive they have certain authority or reasons for reverencing them. Just because they do it does not make it legitimate in every case, as the angel said in Revelations (do not bow down to me!).
However when someone is described as having the character and attributes of almighty God over and over again, this is a very different context for the word worship. It also has more validity and is without question the right thing to do, because of who the person is. I hope this is making sense.
People bow to the Queen of England because both she and they understand she is the Queen.
People bow and worship Jesus because they understand that he is far more than a man, far more than an earthly King, far more than 'just' the Messiah.
Remember those words "My Lord and King"? This is more than an earthly or even Messianic use of the word 'Lord', and more than the earthly use of the word 'King'.
Among many other things, Jesus Christ SHARES the attributes and titles of Yahweh (God) such as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, Immanuel (God with us), the Word who is God and was with God and made flesh and dwelt among us, the Judge, the Righteous One, the Holy One of Israel, Mighty King, Prince of Peace, Rock, the Great Shepherd of Israel, the Lion of Judah and so on and so on. Can't explain that away.
Also, when Jesus preached he made it clear who was speaking, "you have heard it said, the Lord says this or that, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU...". Jesus was declaring his direct, absolute, unlimited, non-derivative, divine authority as the Living Word and Expression of God to speak...as God. Remember the words of the people "no man spake as this man does".
I will just add two things to think about further:
John 1:3 "ALL things were made by him, and without Him was NOTHING made that was made". So was Jesus 'made'?
Col 1: 16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
CLEAR AS DAY!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 5, 2017 19:32:32 GMT -5
I apologise dmmichgood and I am sorry to have upset you. I once again affirm your basic decency and rationality, as far as I know. I know nothing about your medical or psychological history other than what you choose to disclose. You have admitted that your imputation was wrong. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing about your son. I do not say that I know more than you about autism, but I believe I have good grounds for saying I know as much. I did say 'as much or more'. I don't think it particularly matters in the greater scheme of things. I am very weary of having my own integrity questioned. I am sorry I questioned yours. My own experience of self-disclosure on here lately has taught me to be extremely cautious about disclosing anything I don't choose to, including my drugs of either choice or necessity! I believe the two drugs you mentioned are very effective. My advice would be to keep taking them. I am used to being treated that way. It is the way we are usually treated by Christians.
They tolerate us until their sacred ox is gored, -then all hell brakes loose.
When we state something that we can't believe, -the resurrection of a dead body, -they act as if we are so unethical , and inferior to themselves that they can treat us anyway that they like.
(In times past we were dealt with by burning us at the stake)
My original response to both you and Ross stated about something called "gender fluidity theory," when you said secular education system was "forcing gender fluidity theory and leftist dogma down CHILDREN'S throats."
I wrote a satirical post concerning sex identification problems in a developing fetus, and, god forbid! -I made ONE remark concerning your own knowledge of biology!
WOW! Suddenly, you are "outraged" that I question your knowledge!
Suddenly, -I have an "patronising attitude, extreme bias & false imputations and knee-jerk reactions," and you feel so maligned that you are "seriously thinking of giving up on this Board altogether given the quality of argument and false imputations that seem to be prevalent."
Oh well, -so it goes.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Apr 5, 2017 19:48:59 GMT -5
Again, I am sorry you feel that way.
For the record, I don't think I am superior to you in any way.
On that point, I notice you use a lot of 'they' and 'we' language. That's interesting in itself.
Also, I have apologised for my over-reaction (yes, I admit it).
As for being 'treated this way'. Please.
It is par for the course for Christians to be mocked, derided and excluded for their beliefs.
In this country people are literally in danger of losing their jobs for not going along with the corporate line on SSM for example.
Public calls are made daily by activists to sack people like an IBM executive who is also on the board of a philanthropic Christian organisation, because it is assumed that he 'must be' homophobic. Why? No evidence other than he is a Christian.
So, yeah, tell me about being 'treated this way'. Your quote "until their sacred ox is gored, -then all hell brakes loose" can be applied to a number of secular commentators when their ethical or social pronouncements are politely challenged by Christians.
And I'm over my outrage. Are you?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 5, 2017 19:57:17 GMT -5
No, Ross.
It isn't just my opinion.
People other than my self have said the same, such as Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson in the later years of his life created a book The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth, by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus.
Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine.
Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.”
He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.”
He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”
He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
and yet thomas jefferson started a number of churches.... Where are you getting that information, wally? David Barton? If so you should get information from someone else. He makes a lot of claims of which he cannot show any proof .
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 5, 2017 23:13:24 GMT -5
No I don't see that! I gave you even an example or two. Those who visit royalty learn ttho bow low or curtsey very deep. Both actions are not the same before non-royalty. There is a depth and grace to a royal intended bow. Likewise the curtsey. This royal curtsey and royal bow was practiced to the inth degree to where the supplicant didn't overbalae in the midst of the courtesy. Now as to worshipping Jesus or the Father? I believe it is a falling-down-on-the-face obeisance. For me I suspect it'll happen so fast that I won't be aware if anything but the Lord's presence and thejoy that is brought by just being in his presence. For those tthat haven't believed in Jesus it the Father, when every eye that sees him and every knee will bow! I think those of Satan's synagogue will bow their knee in fear and respect not humble, loving adoration obeisance. JMO As to bowing before the saints, again theworld will bow down iin respect and fear and likely pleaing that the saints would put in a good word for them. Kinda like the five foolish asked the five wise for some if their oil. So the word "worship" in scripture means "a low bow or curtsy very deep"? Thats not what I said.
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Post by fixit on Apr 5, 2017 23:29:59 GMT -5
So the word "worship" in scripture means "a low bow or curtsy very deep"? Thats not what I said. Trinitarians seem to have a hangup about F&W worshiping Jesus Christ, the son of God. Yes they don't have a similar hangup about the verse in Rev 3. It's an example of a double standard. Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 5, 2017 23:39:24 GMT -5
Again, I am sorry you feel that way. For the record, I don't think I am superior to you in any way. On that point, I notice you use a lot of 'they' and 'we' language. That's interesting in itself. Also, I have apologised for my over-reaction (yes, I admit it). As for being 'treated this way'. Please. It is par for the course for Christians to be mocked, derided and excluded for their beliefs. In this country people are literally in danger of losing their jobs for not going along with the corporate line on SSM for example. Public calls are made daily by activists to sack people like an IBM executive who is also on the board of a philanthropic Christian organisation, because it is assumed that he 'must be' homophobic. Why? No evidence other than he is a Christian. So, yeah, tell me about being 'treated this way'. Your quote "until their sacred ox is gored, -then all hell brakes loose" can be applied to a number of secular commentators when their ethical or social pronouncements are politely challenged by Christians. And I'm over my outrage. Are you? I didn't have to get over any "outrage," alistair. I told you that.
I'm use to it. I was a bit surprised at you though, -because when you are posting to Christian believers, I had admired your consideration in dealing with them even if you didn't always agree.
That is why I used the 'they' and 'we' language.
As for your comment , 'Christians mocked, etc, Can you quote even one post where I have done that?
Many people on this board have accused me of this before but when it came to proof they couldn't prove it.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Apr 5, 2017 23:42:58 GMT -5
I didn't say that you were mocking anyone.
Straw man. I said Christians are used to being mocked in the wider society.
As for my manner of interaction, I have failed my own standards lately out of frustration.
Again I apologise to you.
Let me add that I also am ashamed of my brusqueness in your case in recent posts (and to Joanna).
I am sorry and will seek to not let my strong emotions in some areas get away on me again to the extent of being rude and inconsiderate to yourself and others.
Peace to you.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 6, 2017 0:18:37 GMT -5
Yes, it no doubt it would be a non-David Barton view, because: In 2012, Barton's New York Times bestseller[66] The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson (published April 10, 2012)[67] was voted "the least credible history book in print" by the users of the History News Network website.[30]
A group of 10 conservative Christian professors reviewed the work and reported negatively on its claims, saying that Barton has misstated facts about Jefferson.[58][68]
In August 2012 Christian publisher Thomas Nelson withdrew the book from publication and stopped production, announcing that they had "lost confidence in the book's details" and "learned that there were some historical details included in the book that were not adequately supported."[69][70]
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 6, 2017 0:29:34 GMT -5
Trinitarians seem to have a hangup about F&W worshiping Jesus Christ, the son of God. Yes they don't have a similar hangup about the verse in Rev 3. It's an example of a double standard. Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. It seems to me, you're the one with the problem.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 6, 2017 1:03:42 GMT -5
I didn't say that you were mocking anyone. Straw man. I said Christians are used to being mocked in the wider society. As for my manner of interaction, I have failed my own standards lately out of frustration. Again I apologise to you. Let me add that I also am ashamed of my brusqueness in your case in recent posts (and to Joanna). I am sorry and will seek to not let my strong emotions in some areas get away on me again to the extent of being rude and inconsiderate to yourself and others. Peace to you. Sorry, alistair,
I didn't mean that YOU had claimed that I was "mocking" Christians.
I only meant that people ON this board had accuse me of doing so.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 6, 2017 2:02:32 GMT -5
Trinitarians seem to have a hangup about F&W worshiping Jesus Christ, the son of God. Yes they don't have a similar hangup about the verse in Rev 3. It's an example of a double standard. Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Yes, the word worship only means worship when it suits. In any other instance it doesn't mean worship but something else. But i think if you worship someone at their feet, then you're pretty much bowing right down and worshipping them completely, you can't get much lower than the feet! And those that Jesus loves aren't God!
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Post by maryhig on Apr 6, 2017 2:23:38 GMT -5
Reading today in Matthew's Gospel, I noticed these words "Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying "Behold a virgin shall be with a child, and shall bring forth a son and they shall call his name Emanuel" which being interpreted is God with us." "God with us" - how wonderful. It is wonderful, and God was with them, he was in Christ Jesus, Paul said that God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself. He was seen through him 100% because Jesus didn't live by his own will but by the will of God, he was dead to his flesh, never sinning he came in the full power of the Holy Spirit. He was in the express image of God, Jesus even said that the father had given him power over all flesh. And God is still with us, but we aren't God. He is within the hearts of those who belong to him, the stronger we are in God and as we walk in the Spirit, the more others will see the life of Christ through us. They can't see Christ through us if we are still living in and loving our flesh and this world. We are sinners, but if our faith is strong in God and we start to turn from sin, then he gives us the power by the Spirit to overcome. We are not as strong as Christ Jesus, and we sin every day (hopefully not wilfully), but the more we lay down our lives for Christ's sake and live through him, and let go of the lusts of our flesh and this world, we receive more power from the Spirit to overcome, and as we die to self and our old life is going, the life of Christ is seen more in and through us. As we decrease he increases. And we are becoming living sacrifices, dying daily and living not by our will, but by the will of God and truly following Jesus.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 6, 2017 11:11:48 GMT -5
Trinitarians seem to have a hangup about F&W worshiping Jesus Christ, the son of God. Yes they don't have a similar hangup about the verse in Rev 3. It's an example of a double standard. Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Yes, the word worship only means worship when it suits. In any other instance it doesn't mean worship but something else. But i think if you worship someone at their feet, then you're pretty much bowing right down and worshipping them completely, you can't get much lower than the feet! And those that Jesus loves aren't God! There are different worships. One is bowing before someone in a supplicant manner. The other is bowing low in respect. There there is the absolute worship, falling on one's face before the Holy one. If one can't separate them, then it's best to not worship any other then the falling on one's face before the Holy one. JMO.
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Post by fixit on Apr 6, 2017 13:36:36 GMT -5
Yes, the word worship only means worship when it suits. In any other instance it doesn't mean worship but something else. But i think if you worship someone at their feet, then you're pretty much bowing right down and worshipping them completely, you can't get much lower than the feet! And those that Jesus loves aren't God! There are different worships. One is bowing before someone in a supplicant manner. The other is bowing low in respect. There there is the absolute worship, falling on one's face before the Holy one. If one can't separate them, then it's best to not worship any other then the falling on one's face before the Holy one. JMO. If anyone wants to make a big deal about the English word worship used in the KJV, they need to study the fifteen original Hebrew and Greek words. The mantra "only God is to be worshiped" is extremely naive.
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Post by emy on Apr 6, 2017 14:14:53 GMT -5
If anyone wants to make a big deal about the English word worship used in the KJV, they need to study the fifteen original Hebrew and Greek words. The mantra "only God is to be worshiped" is extremely naive. Interesting. This post motivated me to do a search of "only" and "worship". Two verses say we are to worship the Lord God and SERVE only Him.
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Post by blandie on Apr 6, 2017 15:19:00 GMT -5
Interesting. This post motivated me to do a search of "only" and "worship". Two verses say we are to worship the Lord God and SERVE only Him. Satan didn't ask jesus to serve him but directly asked jesus to 'worship' him and thats what jesus refused to do and jesus replied with Whether you apply 'only/monos' to the word serve or to both actions is irrelevant. The word worship in the old testament hebrew is the same word also translated as reverence and fear. They were not to worship/fear the creation but the creator. The verses from Deuteronomy that jesus was indicating said worship and serve and didn't use the word 'only' at all - jesus inserted the word 'only' from 1 Samuel 12 to make a point. We also have angels and saints in both old and new testaments refusing to be worshipped and peter and paul being horrified that folks tried to worship them. Jesus alone was repeatedly worshipped with no one rebuking the people who worshipped him.
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Post by fixit on Apr 6, 2017 15:34:22 GMT -5
If anyone wants to make a big deal about the English word worship used in the KJV, they need to study the fifteen original Hebrew and Greek words. The mantra "only God is to be worshiped" is extremely naive. Interesting. This post motivated me to do a search of "only" and "worship". Two verses say we are to worship the Lord God and SERVE only Him. I probably should have qualified my statement. The mantra "only God is to be worshiped" as support for trinitarian theology is what I consider naive. I don't believe for a moment that God would have a problem with folks worshiping his son Jesus Christ.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Apr 6, 2017 16:05:34 GMT -5
It is not the 'worship', or offering of reverence and respect through bowing down that is the issue here. It is the context of 'who' and 'why' we worship any person.
As I said in another post (which you may have overlooked), worship of God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son) are synonymous.
Lesser forms of worship or reverence for mere humans are in completely different contexts and for different reasons. These nuances about worship are well-known principles, not some new-found or hidden 'wisdom' reserved for JWs and non-trinitarians, as if this were some major revelation!
Jesus was worshipped as the Lord from heaven, not as in one of your examples a mere earthly judge.
It is in THIS SENSE that only God is to be worshipped, as Jesus said. Jesus would not bow to a pretender.
We worship the real thing when we worship Jesus the Son of God, the LORD.
We honour the Son even as (in the same way as) we honour the Father. How biblical is that?
He was acknowledged by NT writers as having all the attributes and characteristics of God, Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, LORD, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.
Please name just one other person in the New or Old Testament who is known by those titles. Oh yeah, God!
I won't repeat my other post here. I think it's still there.
One more thing, 'naivety' would seem to be assuming that, given all the different nuances of worship and the reasons for it as explained here, we should then conflate them all to having no distinction or no different reasons for offering it. Defeating your own argument really.
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Post by fixit on Apr 6, 2017 16:36:40 GMT -5
If Jesus is God to you, that's your call of course.
Not my problem.
However I maintain that F&W shouldn't be ridiculed for worshiping Jesus (without making him part of a convoluted man-made trinity).
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Post by alistairhenderson on Apr 6, 2017 17:45:42 GMT -5
Who's ridiculing?
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