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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 6:26:33 GMT -5
Hi folks,
This is especially for Bert, Jondough, Wally, Fixit and everyone else who does not accept the deity of Christ; simply put, that he is God in the flesh.
i am just going to post some excerpts, directly copied without alteration, from a sermon by senior American overseer, Jack Carroll at Seattle, Washington, Special Meeting, April 13, 1952....
"Read Colossians 1:15-18. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, etc. He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence. The birth of Christ was not an ordinary birth; the life of Christ was not an ordinary life; the death of Christ on Calvary was not an ordinary death; it was an extra-ordinary death; the resurrection of Christ was not an ordinary resurrection, it was an historic fact......
.......Jesus was the visible representation of the invisible God. We think too often of Him as man. I want to speak to you about Him as Christ. He clothed Himself with a human form and manifested to the world God. To me, Christ was the human form of God in this present evil world......
.....In order to help you understand this, I would like you to read John 1:1. The thoughts of God and the mind of God is expressed in this one verse, "In the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Was with God and was God. Verse 14 The Word (Christ)) was made flesh and dwelt among us. Verse 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 14:8-9 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, 'Show us the Father?'" I believe He was hurt. Oh, how much those first disciples needed to have their faith increased......
.......Hebrews 1:1-3, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." All that Christ was, God is. During those years on earth He manifested the character and nature and love of God. He gave to men and women a look into the Father's heart. This helps me to understand the awful cost of Calvary. He came unto His own. Did you ever try to determine the awful sin of those men? Christ was the Word (or God) made flesh.......
......Then He said to His disciples, "But whom say ye that I am?" Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ." What place are you giving to Him in your heart-life, home-life, and business-life? Is He just merely One that lived in the long ago? Some say He was a man of God. He was not a man of God, but He was the God-man. That in all things Christ might have the preeminence. Our destiny depends not on how much we know of Him, not in our knowledge of the truth that He taught, but the place we allow Him in our hearts. In all things, Christ......."
Well, there you have it folks. This is similar to Dad's notes I read by Bill Carroll which I still need to dig out. I recall he also preached at length about Christ as God come in the flesh.
So what say you, those who don't believe Christ is who the bible (and Jack Carroll) say he is?
Please note that if you think my thread title is provocative, or an over-statement or anything else, they are the words of Jack Carroll!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2017 11:23:16 GMT -5
For as young as John was, he had the understanding if an aged seer.
Thanks for posting.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 14:47:30 GMT -5
Well friends,
Here you have the witness and clear testimony of two workers, 53 years apart (1952 and 2005) who clearly proclaimed who Jesus Christ is.
Jack Carroll was one of the two senior-most worker overseers in the world for many years. John W left the work not long after he clearly proclaimed the deity of Jesus Christ. I wonder why? Pressure?
We all know that their voices are in the minority today, because as Ross has tried to point out time and again, there has clearly been a shift in teaching generally, probably starting around 50 years ago, including to the extreme extent of purging hymns of clear references to the trinity and deity of Christ in the 1987 hymns old and new. You know it's true.
This is fundamental teaching folks. Here in Australia today Ross, myself and many others have had to walk away from workers who flatly denied what these two workers were preaching. We have had very recently a senior worker here say that Jesus was merely a man with a sinful nature who overcame his sinful nature, and that he was not at all divine.
What is the answer folks?
Is truth changeable to that extent, or is it time to admit that the workers have collectively got so far off track that they have completely lost touch with the biblical roots of Christian Faith?
And what does that tell you about the nature of the workers' way?
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 14:54:24 GMT -5
All I can hear is crickets.........
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Post by fixit on Mar 8, 2017 15:26:20 GMT -5
We have had very recently a senior worker here say that Jesus was merely a man with a sinful nature who overcame his sinful nature, and that he was not at all divine. You seem obsessed with trinitarian dogma. Can you put hand on heart, look me in the eye, and say with all honesty that the worker used the word "merely"?
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 16:02:48 GMT -5
Fixit,
No, I am not 'obsessed' with trinitarian dogma (your words) as you put it. I am concerned that the biblical account of who Jesus is is properly and consistently acknowledged and upheld by those professing to be the true preachers. Is that too much to ask?
This is foundational Christian teaching, not a nice to have. And it beats me how I can put up the words of two leading workers who spoke half a century apart and have it completely ignored and dismissed as my 'obsession'. Really, diversion or what?
Did you read what two workers said? Do you get that they were saying exactly what Trinitarians say? Please don't throw it back to me when they said it clearly.
As for what the other worker said, I wasn't there - Ross heard him say something very much like it. From my recollection of what Ross said, I think the words were something like 'only', 'nothing more than', ' just' or similar 'merely' sounding words.
I have myself been told that Jesus was the perfect Son of God, but not equal with the Father and certainly not to be addressed as Divine (capital D). That's a bit better in a way than what this other worker said, but it's no closer to the truth, now is it? It's just another denial.
Does it really matter what a worker said at a funeral five minutes ago when I have clearly shown you that two very well known and otherwise respected workers have said exactly what we are saying?
I am much more interested in your response to the main topic, not more prevarication and deflection from the main point.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 16:07:27 GMT -5
I will try and find more notes from workers today that also clearly support what we are saying, seeing as it appears very much to me that you won't believe the plain testimony of the scriptures, or any commentator or opinion that comes from outside the closed shop of 'meetings' thinking.
I notice again that you have the reference on your byline of 'exposing the unfruitful works of darkness.' That's a great verse!
Here's why. On Tuesday night at home we had a bible study on John 1 (coincidence I swear, someone else picked it ok?).
Hear again the words of the scripture IF YOU WILL:
John 1:1-5 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
Note several things here: 1) The Word (Christ) is God, just as Jack Carroll pointed out. 2) Jesus is the light of men (of the world we might say) 3) the darkness does not comprehend (understand) nor overcome the light.
And lastly John 1:9-10, 14: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.........And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
As Jack Carroll said, the Word (Christ = God) was made flesh and dwelt among us....
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 16:59:21 GMT -5
OK everyone,
It hasn't taken me long to find some interesting notes by Leo Stancliffe, Dinuba Special Meeting, March 3, 1997.
Now firstly I need to point something out. There actually appear to be three strains of thinking (at least) among workers about who Christ is (or isn't).
Firstly (1) is standard Trinitarian teaching (Jack Carroll, John W)
Secondly (2) is an understanding of the same but misrepresenting (probably inadvertently) what other Christians actually believe to make it sound as if they don't believe the same as what the speaker believes (Leo Stancliff, as you will see shortly)
Lastly (3), what is taught by 99% of workers today and believed by about 98% of the friends, as far as I can make out, and that is that Jesus is not God.
Let me explain about Leo.
The first thing he says is: "Some people teach that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one person." No! No! No! and No!
We who believe in the Trinity believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons in One God, NOT one person. So he got that wrong, deliberately or otherwise, who knows?
The second thing is, that he then went on to say all the things we have been saying, which suggests to me that although he may have misapprehended what people who say they believe in the Trinity actually mean (clearly he did misunderstand that), this is what ELSE he went on to say (extracts of course) which are pure Trinitarian teaching that upholds the deity of Christ and makes a distinction between two of the Persons of the Godhead, but still speaking of One God:
""Christ in you the hope of glory." So we can say that the Father and the Son have the same nature, but are not the same person (Al's comment - this is correct)...Creation was made by God. Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." When God created man He said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." There were present the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Man was made with an outward likeness to God. It is the power that God puts in His people. Ephesians 3:9, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Christ was the creator.....
John 1:1-3,14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (So, Jesus wasn't made - Al's comment). He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." (Verse 14) "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
(Colossians 1:15-17) "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
(John 1:18) "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." No man hath seen God. Jesus has revealed Him. John 10:30-33, "I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?' The Jews answered him, saying, 'For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.'"
The Jews could not understand that Jesus could be one with the Father. They took up stones to stone Him. They thought He was blaspheming, being a man and making Himself God. Vs. 34-36, "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, I said, 'Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 'Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest;' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?'"....
It is good if we can back up what we say with both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Let's see what it says in Isaiah 43:1,14,15, "But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, 'O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.'" Verse 14, "Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; 'For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.'" Verse 15, "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." Jesus was the Redeemer of Israel.
....Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Notice the names by which Jesus is called in this verse! This is backed up in the New Testament. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Psalms 45:6-7, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." .....
Who is Jehovah? It is the nature and the power that both the Father and the Son have. The word applies either to the Father or to the Son. Exodus 6:2-3, "And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, 'I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.'" Here is a good question to ask the JWs: Was Abraham saved? They would answer, Yes. But he didn't know God by the name Jehovah. The naked eye cannot see God. John 8:56-59, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, 'Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?' Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.' Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." .....
Isaiah 40:3-4,10, "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight and the rough places plain,'" Verse 10, "Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him." Prepare the way of the LORD (Jehovah). This is referring to Jesus......We usually use the word God to refer to the Father. But the word God can refer to both the Father and the Son. The word JEHOVAH can refer to both the father and the son.
For forty years this subject troubled me. I went to Steve Shorten and told him what I had been thinking. He said, "That is right." Then I went to Willie Jamieson and asked him. He said, "That's right." We need to learn more about the One we love and serve God the Father sent God the Son to be a mediator. 1 Timonthy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." A mediator is like a translator. He understands both languages. Jesus is God. Jesus made us. He understands us. He came to this earth and was made flesh so that we could understand that He understands us...."
Case closed? Witnesses for the contrary opinion, speak now please.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 17:08:39 GMT -5
What has changed? God's word, or the workers' teachings? Smoking guns anyone?
Would you like me to find some more?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2017 17:43:00 GMT -5
Irvine Grey said that he'd noted that there'd been a change in the workers preaching from the beginning workers.
It just seems that in order to be a "different" church or belief system that the workers have really jeopardized themselves and those they supposedly are leading. Every tenet of belief the workers found to be a tenet of belief in a major established church, esp. Catholic, they worked fast and furious to deny that and remove any taint of it. As in they changed major words in hymns. I have to wonder what the songwriters think of such manipulating of their inspiration. Also workers have excommunicated people who dared testify about such a tenet of faith as the triune God.
I fear the day when those workers that have refused to give Jesus his rightful place, face the righteous Judge. Isn't it said that there will be those that called on his name would be told that Jesus didn't know them? Also isn't it mentioned about those who didn't admit to his name, that Jesus would not know their name before the Father?
Thus denying the precious Lamb of God his every righteous name just might be the very thing that defeats one.
Psalm says it plainly that "no man can redeem his brother". So a Redeemer would have to be someone far more than a "man" .
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2017 17:47:08 GMT -5
What has changed? God's word, or the workers' teachings? Smoking guns anyone? Would you like me to find some more? Al, it is likely that it's a hard concept for people to understand, but as it was said in your posting of a sermon above was not to look at Jesus as in human terms but to look at him as the Bible says he is.God the Son came down, made himself lower then the angels by taking on human flesh etc.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 18:00:23 GMT -5
Actually, I can't say I full understand it, but Paul spoke about the mystery of God in relation to Jesus:
Ephesians 3:9, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."
It is what God's word teaches, therefore I accept it.
It needs to be restated, that the word 'God' when used in the New Testament in particular, sometimes refers to the Father, sometimes to the Son, sometimes to the Holy Spirit and sometimes to all three at once!
It's all about context! Not taking texts out of context to make a pretext for wrong teaching.
I think this is one of the greatest sources of confusion. But that's no excuse to blatantly deny what the scripture says, even if you have to take the time to put in a bit of effort and study it properly, while being guided by the Holy Spirit of course. But even the Spirit can be stilled by preconceptions that just will not allow any serious scrutiny.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 18:07:01 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
I can accept now that that is what Leo was referring to. See, I am willing to adjust when informed of additional context!
You're quite right that the Oneness Pentecostals (just a sub-branch of Pentecostalism) DO have the wrong idea about the Trinity, but it's different again to the friends and workers. They actually have the belief that many friends and workers THINK Trinitarian believers have, which I said before, we don't, either Catholic or Protestant.
Thanks for that timely clarification Nathan.
However, the naive reader could easily THINK that Leo was referring to 'that Trinity doctrine', because what he describe is what many friends and workers THINK others believe, when we don't.
I WOULD LIKE TO THANK FIXIT FOR HIS CONTRIBUTION EARLIER. AT LEAST IT WAS A REPLY.....
IT WOULD BE REALLY NICE TO HEAR FROM SOMEONE ELSE WHO HAS A DIFFERENT VIEW......
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 18:24:36 GMT -5
Rightyo guys,
This is Sam Charlton (Worker, of Workers and Friends Inc.) - 'The Word of God' - Tacoma, Washington - 1958
"“Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldst not, but a body Thou has prepared Me.” - Hebrews 10:5. “A body Thou hast fitted Me.” Jesus was satisfied with the Father's arrangement in giving Him a human body. He said, “It is a good fit, Father” - a body Thou hast fitted Me. God is a trinity and man is a trinity - body, soul, and spirit. It has been very wisely planned by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Heaven....."
And here is some good teaching about the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit:
"It is profitable for doctrine, and it is profitable for reproof. I suppose you find there is very seldom any meeting but there has been reproof, that gentle reproof of the Holy Spirit, which assures us that He is very deeply interested in us, watches what our needs are, our progress, our neglect, and He would love for us to take that message to treasure it in our souls. It was a simple means that Jesus used to cleanse the temple and bring it up to Heaven's requirement. He made a whip of small cords - a simple contrivance, but it accomplished wonderful things. It is the gentle reproof of the Holy Spirit as the message is spoken to you and to me. No preacher knows your conditions exactly, no one knows except the Holy Spirit, but He knows. Jesus said, “If I go away, I will send the Holy Spirit.” This means to every individual in this meeting this evening...."
Note the personification of the Holy Spirit. He is not just an 'influence' - He is a Person.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 18:27:26 GMT -5
Actually, I can't say I full understand it, but Paul spoke about the mystery of God in relation to Jesus: Ephesians 3:9, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." It is what God's word teaches, therefore I accept it. It needs to be restated, that the word 'God' when used in the New Testament in particular, sometimes refers to the Father, sometimes to the Son, sometimes to the Holy Spirit and sometimes to all three at once! It's all about context! Not taking texts out of context to make a pretext for wrong teaching. I think this is one of the greatest sources of confusion. But that's no excuse to blatantly deny what the scripture says, even if you have to take the time to put in a bit of effort and study it properly, while being guided by the Holy Spirit of course. But even the Spirit can be stilled by preconceptions that just will not allow any serious scrutiny. Well I am quite contented with the belief that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and for ever. If He was part of the God head then, He is part of the God head now and for ever.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 18:32:41 GMT -5
Thanks partaker,
I appreciate your response. Can you see why I am doing this?
So many workers and friends, including many on here WILL NOT admit that what we are saying is exactly what the bible says.
I am simply wanting to show that as far as many past workers were concerned, the Trinity and the deity of Christ are not some strange outlandish doctrine that the bitter exes believe in order to be a thorn in their side. Those workers fully accepted it to be true.
SO WHY DON'T THE WORKERS AND FRIENDS GENERALLY FREELY AFFIRM IT?
Because in many cases it has not been taught or believed for a long time now....why is that?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 18:32:46 GMT -5
Hi folks, This is especially for Bert, Jondough, Wally, Fixit and everyone else who does not accept the deity of Christ; simply put, that he is God in the flesh. i am just going to post some excerpts, directly copied without alteration, from a sermon by senior American overseer, Jack Carroll at Seattle, Washington, Special Meeting, April 13, 1952.... "Read Colossians 1:15-18. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, etc. He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence. The birth of Christ was not an ordinary birth; the life of Christ was not an ordinary life; the death of Christ on Calvary was not an ordinary death; it was an extra-ordinary death; the resurrection of Christ was not an ordinary resurrection, it was an historic fact...... .......Jesus was the visible representation of the invisible God. We think too often of Him as man. I want to speak to you about Him as Christ. He clothed Himself with a human form and manifested to the world God. To me, Christ was the human form of God in this present evil world...........In order to help you understand this, I would like you to read John 1:1. The thoughts of God and the mind of God is expressed in this one verse, "In the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Was with God and was God. Verse 14 The Word (Christ)) was made flesh and dwelt among us. Verse 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 14:8-9 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, 'Show us the Father?'" I believe He was hurt. Oh, how much those first disciples needed to have their faith increased...... .......Hebrews 1:1-3, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." All that Christ was, God is. During those years on earth He manifested the character and nature and love of God. He gave to men and women a look into the Father's heart. This helps me to understand the awful cost of Calvary. He came unto His own. Did you ever try to determine the awful sin of those men? Christ was the Word (or God) made flesh.............Then He said to His disciples, "But whom say ye that I am?" Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ." What place are you giving to Him in your heart-life, home-life, and business-life? Is He just merely One that lived in the long ago? Some say He was a man of God. He was not a man of God, but He was the God-man. That in all things Christ might have the preeminence. Our destiny depends not on how much we know of Him, not in our knowledge of the truth that He taught, but the place we allow Him in our hearts. In all things, Christ......." Well, there you have it folks. This is similar to Dad's notes I read by Bill Carroll which I still need to dig out. I recall he also preached at length about Christ as God come in the flesh. So what say you, those who don't believe Christ is who the bible (and Jack Carroll) say he is? Please note that if you think my thread title is provocative, or an over-statement or anything else, they are the words of Jack Carroll! i believe in the trinity, God is Three yet one being...i don't think it does anything to help your salvation though whether you believe that or not whats called for in the bible is to believe on Jesus Christ...
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 18:35:27 GMT -5
Well thanks for that Wally!
That's not what people have been saying, however, and it's not what many workers have said to me, Ross and others. Quite the opposite in fact. I was told that the idea of Christ being even equal with God was clearly not in line with the teaching of the workers. Ross had a similar experience, as did Elizabeth Coleman and many others.
So, thank you.
A big part of salvation is knowing IN WHOM you have believed though, surely?
What is the good of singing "I know in whom I have believed", if like one worker, you believe in your heart that the one in whom you have believed is just a bloke who happened to overcome his sinful nature (lucky for us he did , eh? Blimey!)
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 8, 2017 18:50:45 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
Actually, the consistent teaching about the Trinity, either implicit (in the New Testament and the writings of the early church fathers - the second generation after the apostles) or explicit (Catholic teaching and then mainstream protestant teaching) has always been three persons in one God.
The only thing I know where the Catholics differ is that they refer to Mary as the Mother of God, and even then they don't mean the Father, they mean the Son who was born as a man.
Now I prefer not to use that term myself, as I think it is enough to say Mary was the Mother of Jesus, the Son of Man, but that is the only real difference in Catholic and evangelical teaching about the Trinity.
I'm sorry to have to say it, but groups like the JWs, Oneness Pentecostals, 2x2s and Mormons are not the result of the Trinity not being understood by most Christians for hundreds and thousands of years. That's just rubbish.
They are the result of heretical teachings, and departure from the faith clearly understood for hundreds and thousands of years.
I should add that in every case of those mentioned, and many other off-beam sects, the common denominator is a 'prophet' who took it upon themselves to restore the one true church.....
There is no excuse other than wilful denial of the truth. And you know that.
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Post by reborn on Mar 8, 2017 21:03:38 GMT -5
It is truly horrible how many have been hurt by others who do not have a clear understanding. We need to know "In whom we have believed." Many Many apologies are called for!
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 9, 2017 1:34:16 GMT -5
Amen and amen!
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Post by speak on Mar 9, 2017 3:11:21 GMT -5
Christ in you the hope of Glory. I makes no odds in belief or no belief in said trinity. Not once was the word trinity preached unto the people neither was the word trinity mention anywhere in the Bible, the concept is there but i see no doctrine about it. But i see The risen Christ preached, look in those notes and see the Christ preached. We hear nothing about the trinity or word thereof but the Christ/the risen Christ all the time.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 9, 2017 3:36:34 GMT -5
Hi speak,
I respect your view. Yes, that's great that the risen Christ is preached!
No one is saying that the word Christ or the word of Christ is not preached.
And I think every believer here would agree with that thought "Christ in us the hope of glory."
On this we can certainly agree.
However, what concerns a number of us is that the whole, clear, full message of who Jesus is, is not being preached.
Why only preach or believe half the story? There is no need for that!
You can see that the workers we quoted from were not ashamed of the whole truth and were not afraid to speak it either.
When did things change, and why? That is the worry, speak!
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Post by fixit on Mar 9, 2017 4:15:30 GMT -5
I think the workers realized that trinitarian dogma is a convoluted man-made theory that adds nothing to "Christ in you, your hope of glory".
Workers should feel no obligation to expound or debate the creeds of men.
They're better to teach of their own experience walking with God and leave theology to the theologians.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 9, 2017 4:32:55 GMT -5
Fixit,
Did you read what the workers said? Are you being wilfully ignorant of what a number of workers have preached, even using the word trinity?
There is nothing 'convoluted' about the plain truth.
The convolution comes in when people wriggle and squirm and prevaricate and change the subject just to avoid admitting the plain truth of the matter even when it is presented to them on a platter! Ooooh, that rhymes, look at that.
It is the workers who spoke about Jesus in clear Trinitarian terms in the quotes we supplied.
Are you now saying that those workers are just 'theologians' and that we should leave what they said and ignore it?
Are you serious?
THEY WERE WORKERS!
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 9, 2017 5:07:58 GMT -5
George Walker - Book of Revelation - McCordsville, Indiana - September 6, 1975
"You can't separate between the three persons in the trinity because they are all one. They are used in this language to help our finite minds to understand Christ, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
Jack Carroll - Sidney, Manitoba Convention - Monday Evening, November 9, 1914
"God is a trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
Leslie White - 1st Oak Lodge Convention - Sunday morning, 2005
"John begins his Gospel by saying - I've been reading a bit in Johns Gospel in the 1st chapter, "In the beginning was the Word." He's talking about this Jesus. He's so great, and he spoke this, "In the beginning was the Word, and The Word was with God, and the Word was God." Then in the 14th verse, "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." We would like to go back before the beginning wouldn't we? That's the human mind that we'd always want to do that. In the beginning, that's time, you can't begin unless you have time, but eternity is before that, but in the beginning John said, "There was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.".....
...We can't understand, we don't know, but in the beginning He was there. In the beginning was the Word and He was with God and He was God, and now that's a great mystery. One of the great mysteries......
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nobody can explain or understand that; none of us can understand that. No one can really, fully understand that, but we believe in those three and that they are one, but He is with God. He is God; He's not man; He's not an Angel; He's God-kind. He's like His Father; He's the Son. Just like a natural boy is like his dad, but he's not the dad, but he's got those qualities. He's God the Son; God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. We don't understand that, but He was the expression of God, so He's called the Word. He's the expression of God, but we don't know what He was, up there in eternity except that He's the expression of God, and when he became a man He's still the Word; the expression of God, and He said, "If you have seen me, You have seen God,", so His presence for a while wasn't there in Heaven, that expression of God; that Word......
....All things were made by Him and without Him, was not anything made - and then this. In Him was life and the life was the light of men and the light shined in darkness, and the darkness didn't comprehend it. I think of that. When Jesus came to this world He was always the light, the only light; He's always been the light and that light shined in the darkness over all those years before He came; even before this man sent from God, John the Baptist who bore witness to that light; and then it says that light came into the world and He was made flesh. He was always the light of the world; it was His Spirit that was enlightening people teaching them all through those years of darkness......
......Moses said, "God's going to send you one like that." That comes from Himself, and gives you the word. He said, "You listen to Him." There is going to be One that does that, and that's what God did. That's then, God living in a body; that glory of God that no man could look on, but then that's Jesus who He sent in a body. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He didn't have this body of flesh or anything, but He was in the form of God. He was God-kind....."
I am going to leave it here, but there is heaps more...
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 9, 2017 5:15:12 GMT -5
Please note the expression from an American worker in 2005 at an Australian convention, "God the Son"!
Now where have you heard that before? Oh yeah, those bitter exes!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 9, 2017 12:43:11 GMT -5
Again, as one of the beginning workers pointed out, you can't think about the trinity in the same way you think about human. You will never understand it. I have to say, this is one sweet mystery in the bible that we have to ask God to help us understand it. Trying to make if it in human thoughts and comparisons will not make it for you. Also to refute it because other sects of religion believe and teach it is foolish. It only hurts ones understandingfof the One who gave us life eternal.
A perfect man who overcame his temptations could still never redeem any other mankind. That had to require a sacrifice if the creator himself.
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